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Could ZeRo potentially ruin Sm4sh's competitive scene?

ChaikaBestGirl

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So before this starts, don't get me wrong, in no way do I have anything against ZeRo.

Problem is, he is just too good. It is almost guaranteed that he will win every tournament he enters. That being said, since he has plot armor and looks to never lose, will the Sm4sh scene grow when there is always one winner? In Melee there are a ton of great players who beat each other all the time where it is impossible to predict who will be the grand champion, but in Sm4sh it's like there is one god who smites anyone who attempts to challenge him without mercy. Melee is like Greek mythology where there are a ton of gods fighting each other, while Sm4sh is like the bible where it is a sole God punishing everyone.
 

Tempus

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A) Smash 4 tournaments have been getting bigger over time, not smaller, despite ZeRo's dominance. This might change, or other players might catch up to ZeRo (and they do seem to be getting closer).

B) The Bible is way more popular than Greek mythology, by orders of magnitude.
 

Duplighost

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I feel like someone else will come up, someone who can challenge him and beat him. Yeah, ZeRo may be dominating the tournaments he enters right now, but players will train until they catch up. He can't be the most highly coveted player forever.
 

ChaikaBestGirl

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A) Smash 4 tournaments have been getting bigger over time, not smaller, despite ZeRo's dominance. This might change, or other players might catch up to ZeRo (and they do seem to be getting closer).

B) The Bible is way more popular than Greek mythology, by orders of magnitude.
I'm not doing the Greek and Catholic gods as a popularity contest but as a very poor example instead
 

MysteriousSilver

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Worry about Zero when you can beat everyone else. Until a person is in Grand Finals, it won't matter if Zero is attending their tournament or not, so I don't really see him scaring most people away.

Seriously I can count the number of people who should consider Zero's dominance a direct problem on one hand.
 

LuLLo

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Not trying to be rude, but this is a really silly and dumb question. One player cannot ruin the entire competitive scene, unless he/she's a master hacker that disables all controllers in the world.
Playing against better players reveals your own flaws, keeps you awake, makes you strive to get better and is one of the key factors that makes competition fun.
The only scene that gets ruined is Zero's, since there is no competition, but there will be, just look at previous tourneys and how close Mr. R, Esam and Nairo got. And until he loses, his ever growing earnings will keep him fighting to be the best.
If you need to ask this question, then I question your competitive spirit.
 

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If he gets to ruin the game, it would not be for being too good, but for spreading false/wrong information and a lot of people taking his words as facts.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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It is also silly to compare it to the Melee scene right now. Yes, there are tons of good players in Melee which is why any of those can be expected to win, but that game has been active for like 14 years whereas Smash 4 is not even a year old. Eventually more high level players will surface.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Brawl had M2King as it's undefeated for quite some time iirc.

But then he was beaten once enough people got to his level.

And then Brawl became more even.

These things take time.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Brawl had M2King as it's undefeated for quite some time iirc.

But then he was beaten once enough people got to his level.

And then Brawl became more even.

These things take time.
Justin Wong didn't lose in mvc2 for like 3 years. It took Daigo a very long time before he lost in sf4. He won back to back evo. I don't think these kids truly understand when they post about stuff like this.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Justin Wong didn't lose in mvc2 for like 3 years. It took Daigo a very long time before he lost in sf4. He won back to back evo. I don't think these kids truly understand when they post about stuff like this.
This generation is impatient.

They expect things to change fast.

Not just in video games either.
 

Xeze

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Didn't Ken have a multi year win streak in Melee too?
Precisely. Ken dominated the Melee scene in it's early days. Just like ZeRo is doing now in the Smash 4 scene. If anything, ZeRo is keeping the stakes high for others to reach.
 

Teh Sandwich

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If anything, zero is helping the competitive scene. He's proof that the skill gap is real. Eventually tournaments won't come so easily to him.
Ken was the same way for quite a while in melee.
 

Axel311

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No, if anything he's helping the scene. He's motivating other players to get better to beat him. Plus it makes his matches all the more exciting because at some point, he will lose a set and lose a tournament. Everyone wants to be watching when it does happen. And I think it's going to be very soon, in the next couple tournaments. People are catching up. ESAM was one hit away from taking a set off him at SmashCon. I wouldn't be shocked at all if at some point he gets knocked into losers bracket at Paragon.

One thing that others alluded to though - he has a ton of power. He's the king of the smash 4 community right now. He has the ability to do a lot of good or do a lot of damage to the community with his words. I hope he's careful about what he says on his youtube channel and stream.

Also, ZeRo will be hurt a lot if his main, Sheik, gets a real nerf that knocks her out of being the best character in the game. He said on his stream that if that happens, he'll likely switch to Zero suit or Pikachu. Two characters ESAM and Nairo have far more experience with. I don't see even someone like ZeRo beating ESAM or Nairo in dittos with those characters anytime soon.
 
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Raijinken

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If he gets to ruin the game, it would not be for being too good, but for spreading false/wrong information and a lot of people taking his words as facts.
This is basically it.

Players pick role models. Be they casters or players, anyone with authority (warranted or not) who spreads misinformation or negativity will contribute more to the shutdown of an idea (or game) that way than any sort of undefeated player.

Heck, if you just look at the sheer popularity of Smashville despite it being widely considered Sheik's best stage, you really have to wonder how many players actually know anything about the game, versus how much they just get from watching and blindly copying. Customs and FLSS get similar bad publicity because regardless of anything about them, a lot of popular commentators and players don't use them and periodically verbally express their distaste.
 

DavemanCozy

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Lol, hell no. If anything, knowing there's someone better motivates people to get better and beat them!

Let me give you a real life example: when you're in school and you are given homework you don't understand, what do you do? Do you go to the teacher and ask questions, read the book or search for answers online, i.e. figure out how to do your damn homework? Or do you just say "Screw it" and give up, decide it's too much work and you might as well fail, throw your homework in the trash, go to school the day its due and blame Kirby for eating it?

If you're the former kind of person, then it's the same idea: this game requires dedication, practice, time investment, and research if you ever want to be good at it.

And in case you didn't notice, Zero puts a crapload of time into playing the game, even if his information and the stuff he says is questionable or even flat out inaccurate at times.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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I think a more accurate question may be "is the competitive scene ruining Zero?". Seriously, we cough up so much drama about this guy and judge everything he says and does. Everybody wants to be the guy that takes down Zero, but until one of us does on a consistent basis, toss such petty accusations. The heart of the problem is that we're taking too much time talking about this game competitively rather than playing this game competitively.
 

LightLV

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everyone should just start maining shiek/diddy/zss and ZeRo will stop winning tournaments

problem solved gg

Edit:

Yo i get spam warnings for THE ODDEST things, but when i'm legitimately trolling people take me serious, alright lol
 
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SixthArmy

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Smash 4's problems will become more pronounced when more people start hitting a ceiling. You can only be so good with what tools you are given. Zero's not the issue, it's potentially that the top end could get very crowded.
 

HFlash

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Saying Zero is ruining the Smash 4 competitive scene is like saying Ken ruined Melee's competitive scene when he was winning tourneys left and right.... Melee is still pretty popular.
 

Big-Cat

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Not his fault everyone else sucks. #shotsfired
 

shadenexus18

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So before this starts, don't get me wrong, in no way do I have anything against ZeRo.

Problem is, he is just too good. It is almost guaranteed that he will win every tournament he enters. That being said, since he has plot armor and looks to never lose, will the Sm4sh scene grow when there is always one winner? In Melee there are a ton of great players who beat each other all the time where it is impossible to predict who will be the grand champion, but in Sm4sh it's like there is one god who smites anyone who attempts to challenge him without mercy. Melee is like Greek mythology where there are a ton of gods fighting each other, while Sm4sh is like the bible where it is a sole God punishing everyone.
ZeRo will never lose? Truly laughable.

Even Rome fell my friend.
 

TurboLink

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I feel like someone else will come up, someone who can challenge him and beat him. Yeah, ZeRo may be dominating the tournaments he enters right now, but players will train until they catch up. He can't be the most highly coveted player forever.
People covet ZeRo? Ew, that's disgusting.

everyone should just start maining shiek/diddy/zss and ZeRo will stop winning tournaments

problem solved gg

Pretty much this. Everyone just main Sheik.
 
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Evello

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I think a more accurate question may be "is the competitive scene ruining Zero?". Seriously, we cough up so much drama about this guy and judge everything he says and does. Everybody wants to be the guy that takes down Zero, but until one of us does on a consistent basis, toss such petty accusations. The heart of the problem is that we're taking too much time talking about this game competitively rather than playing this game competitively.
This is true. Being the best in the world definitely comes with its own burdens. If you listen to Ken and M2K talk about the periods where they dominated Melee and Brawl, they both really hated how audiences were always cheering against them, and the pressure to win all the time supposedly sucked a lot of the joy out of the game.

ZeRo seems to be managing this a little better, but he's still faced with a lot of the same challenges. People are always talking about who is going to beat him and what he's going to do when he loses, and crowds almost always side with the underdog facing him. Thankfully, ZeRo is a pretty nice, relatable guy, and going Diddy in the Evo finals got him a lot of good will in the community. Also, he has his online videos for some more positive feedback (though they're received more-or-less negatively here)

ZeRo seems about as grounded and polite as any best-in-the-world competitor can be, so I imagine he'll be fine no matter what happens.
 

Capt.GinyuTx

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Some people need to chill out a little, this dude was legitimately curious and wanted other people's opinions :p

I don't think ZeRo ruins it by winning every tourney he goes to. His time will come (every great player has theirs) . I don't know if Smash 4 will ever have its own "Gods" or anything like that but the gap will definitely close between Zero and the others (Nairo, Esam, Ally, etc) pretty soon, I feel like. Heck, there's already someone who thinks they can do it in that dude Leo.
 

One Handed Sword

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So before this starts, don't get me wrong, in no way do I have anything against ZeRo.

Problem is, he is just too good. It is almost guaranteed that he will win every tournament he enters. That being said, since he has plot armor and looks to never lose, will the Sm4sh scene grow when there is always one winner? In Melee there are a ton of great players who beat each other all the time where it is impossible to predict who will be the grand champion, but in Sm4sh it's like there is one god who smites anyone who attempts to challenge him without mercy. Melee is like Greek mythology where there are a ton of gods fighting each other, while Sm4sh is like the bible where it is a sole God punishing everyone.
Ehh ZeRo is going to be beaten by somebody eventually. And when he does lose we may figure out how he deals with it. Either in a good or a bad way.
 

Steelballray

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Ehh ZeRo is going to be beaten by somebody eventually. And when he does lose we may figure out how he deals with it. Either in a good or a bad way.
I'm fairly sure he's going to deal with it the worst way possible. Guy went ape **** about lucario's mains cause he dropped a game against a Lucario player.
 
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Xeze

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I'm fairly sure he's going to deal with it the worst way possible. Guy went ape **** about lucario's main cause he dropped a game against a Lucario player.
Maybe because that player was an underdog. If he loses a set vs someone like ESAM, Nairo or Mr. R or even get eliminated by them, he probably won't get that mad. Or maybe he will.
 

Sodo

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It's not a matter of if he loses, it's when and who beats him. I root for ZeRo because he's trying to get people to innovate to beat him. It's like when Lawrence Taylor entered the NFL and teams went to two tight end sets specifically to stop him.
 

Capt.GinyuTx

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It's not a matter of if he loses, it's when and who beats him. I root for ZeRo because he's trying to get people to innovate to beat him. It's like when Lawrence Taylor entered the NFL and teams went to two tight end sets specifically to stop him.
That's actually a really good analogy.
 

Shaya

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Even Rome fell my friend.
Well to be fair, you could say it took Rome some 2300 years to truly fall (to the Turks), and if you wish to be extra-romantic about it, remnants leading into what became the Russian Empire until 1917, quite a long time. And I don't see the Catholic Church falling any time soon either.
Some forces just seem to stay relevant for virtually ever~

--

Can someone being that much better than everyone else hurt the game competitively?
When the guy is by all applicable measures a fine person to be a "face" of our game.... I don't think so.

Anyone care about Tennis here? I do, it's one of the only physical sports I have particular interest in and I love it a lot as it's analogous to fighting games in just about every way. I emphatically enjoy watching and discussing top level tennis with other Smashers too. It's a sport defined heavily by not only physicality but of technique and reaction speed, strategy being necessary to cover gaps, in particular first serve speeds tend to require reading to return (hence serve always giving someone a major advantage, much like counterpicks are meant to).

Either way though the game would not be as interesting today (in my and seemingly most tennis fan's opinion) if not for one particular player, Roger Federer. No joke and you may actually agree this isn't hyperbole, but this man saved this game and pushed it forward more than it has at likely any time in it's history.
He's been top 8 in the world since late 2002, and has been voted as fan favourite for every year during this. He outstrips every local player at any event he attends in popularity significantly and this is virtually unheard of in a generally patriotism inferred sport. World #1 for 302 weeks, 237 of them consecutively, holds like every relevant record and still appears in grand slams grand finals today, some 17 years since his pro appearance.
"In an era of specialists, you're either a clay court specialist, a grass court specialist, or a hard court specialist... or you're Roger Federer." - Jim Conners (another world champion) about his capabilities.

Federer dominated for so long and forced almost an entire generation of tennis players to retire who were once seen as top 20 players (a rather close knit bunch at the time and most of the time). But emerging from the flames have been the likes of Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic, superhumans that are essentially the only players to challenge him in head to head results; Nadal dominantly so, and another dominant player in Andy Murray forming what is termed The Big Four. It took almost half a decade but eventually players caught up to his skill level, suddenly new names to argue they were the greatest tennis player in history, some call this the Golden Age of Tennis and yeah, it's pretty great =)

(skip to 6:40 after the beginning if you don't want to watch the highlight reel)

In short, a great player ahead of the rest in sport gives every aspiring competitor something to strive towards and is usually what creates (eventually) the highest level of play we'll ever see for it. His impact on the game's growth is exceptionally positive especially when we have the dynamic of patches shaking up balance continually in a way that could be destabilising (it is in some's view). I don't think it's really fair to say ZeRo is Federer-tier though. Either way, more players are gearing up as consistent top-end placers like Nairo, Ramin, ESAM and Dabuz and that's also great for the game that there are many threats striving to be the one...
something something let it not be esam something
 
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LightLV

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^ Woah.

Hey guys, look, ZeRo is really good, but this isn't SF4. This isn't Melee either....hell this game isn't even Brawl... He doesn't have some massive technical advantage over anyone.

I wasn't joking; everyone start maining shiek, diddy and ZSS, and ZeRo will stop winning every tournament. If ZeRo is going to do anything for the competitive scene, he's either going to :

a) force people to get privy to the S-tier matchups for the meta
or
b) force the "viability spectrum" cutoff higher than it is currently, to resemble something more like Brawl or Melee.


That's really what it's looking like. Customs or Miis aren't going to change this outcome either.
 
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Sodo

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I don't think it's really fair to say ZeRo is Federer-tier though. Either way, more players are gearing up as consistent top-end placers like Nairo, Ramin, ESAM and Dabuz and that's also great for the game that there are many threats striving to be the one...
I read your entire post and I literally was going to reply and say that, in comparison, Federer has done more for tennis and dominated for so long that to equate ZeRo's (relatively) minuscule amount of time at the top would be blasphemy. I'm glad you made that point in your first sentence here.

ZeRo is obviously not a flash in the pan but he is definitely not GOAT-level yet, simply due to the relative infancy of the game. E-sports is hard to relate to real sports but like I said before, Lawrence Taylor is probably a good comparison. He appeared unstoppable until teams began to strategize around his playstyle, and even then he was still successful, he just wasn't getting free sacks like he was before.

I'd say that's probably what will happen with ZeRo. Someone is going to beat him and others will replicate the strategy, but it's not like he's going to just drop off the face of competitive Smash 4. He'll be considered the best even after someone beats him, and until someone starts doing it consistently to the point where they're beating him more than he's beating them, I don't see anyone considering ZeRo anything but #1 for a while. So... maybe the Federer comparison is spot on after all, if just a few years early. ;)
 
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Joshua Flynn

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Also, ZeRo will be hurt a lot if his main, Sheik, gets a real nerf that knocks her out of being the best character in the game. He said on his stream that if that happens, he'll likely switch to Zero suit or Pikachu. Two characters ESAM and Nairo have far more experience with. I don't see even someone like ZeRo beating ESAM or Nairo in dittos with those characters anytime soon.
If he's winning because of Sheik, I can confidently say that character is overpowered, ironically for most of the reasons zero states for using Sheik. There's no actual weakness. Compare little Mac - he has poor air. Sheik had good air, speed, power, an overriding/interrupting projectile that reaches the entire stage, a homing kick, explosives. Can anyone name any actual weakness of Sheik?

Sheik is effectively the new Diddy.
 
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David Viran

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If he's winning because of Sheik, I can confidently say that character is overpowered, ironically for most of the reasons zero states for using Sheik. There's no actual weakness. Compare little Mac - he has poor air. Sheik had good air, speed, power, an overriding/interrupting projectile that reaches the entire stage, a homing kick, explosives. Can anyone name any actual weakness of Sheik?

Sheik is effectively the new Diddy.
Sure, crappy damage per hit. Makes trades favorable against her a lot of the time.
 

LightLV

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If he's winning because of Sheik, I can confidently say that character is overpowered, ironically for most of the reasons zero states for using Sheik. There's no actual weakness. Compare little Mac - he has poor air. Sheik had good air, speed, power, an overriding/interrupting projectile that reaches the entire stage, a homing kick, explosives. Can anyone name any actual weakness of Sheik?

Sheik is effectively the new Diddy.
Well, Diddy still exists, and is still doing diddy things, albiet not as diddiful as before, but still pretty diddy.

Sure, crappy damage per hit. Makes trades favorable against her a lot of the time.
Not nearly crappy enough, for how much she can do to you once she hits you, which isn't hard for her to do.
 
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