Connor's House Tournament: 12/05/09 This is still happening!

[Lovage]

yeah the wobbles compromise is dumb as **** LOL

and it never addresses what happens if your opponent countrpicks IC after the first match, can you announce it then? am i supposed to tell the round 1 marth main that wobblings banned?

 

[Kira-]

I feel like ICs should still be able to 0-death anybody in one grab even without wobbling, but since nobody really does it I must be wrong. Or maybe there just aren't enough creative minds working on it. ICs mains are few and far between

 

[pockyD]

wobbling clearly isn't unfair or overly powerful

it's just boring as ****

if you want the most competition-based stage set, allow it

if you want to have 'fun', ban it (although i STILL don't understand how you can enforce a ban; how many hits is too many?), but this is the same thing as 'if you find flatzone fun, allow it'

 

[Lovage]

people (like hugs) are ignorant about how ice climbers chaingrabs actually work and assume that even without wobbles they can still kill of a grab, n00bs. the 2 main IC chain grabs are the handoff and dthrow chaingrabs.

handoff can only be done when nana is facing a ledge (popo throws and nana grabs, nana's AI will always throw forward if she is facing a ledge) this lasts a long time depending on your character and will probably will you, but it's way harder to set up than wobbles.

dthrow chaingrab can be SDI'd out of, the regular dthrow dair one is super easy, i've never been victim to the reverse dthrow dair, so i don't know the method, but i'm pretty sure you can SDI out of it by DIing behind popo

 

[Fly_Amanita]

What exactly is the purpose of bringing up the ICs' other CGs in this discussion? edit: Oh, was that in response to Kira?

Anyways, every character can escape reverse dair.

ICs can kill a fair number of characters from grabs with or without wobbling; Sheik, for example, can't do anything to get out of a solo IC dthrow CG for a while if the IC can react to her DI quickly enough, and if she tries to escape it earlier by going offstage, then she just subjects herself to the handoff.

 

[Adam M!]

it's his tournament, he can do whatever he wants

i think it's fair too, but if i was running a tourny and wasn't playing ICs i'd ban it too, just because i can

host your own tournaments and you can do what you want

 

[HugS™]

Wobbling should be banned not because it's game breaking, but because it detracts so much from what could be considered "normal" gameplay.

It demands a change in action from the opponent in such a specific way that the time spent in proper spacing, damage racking, comboing, etc, takes a relative backseat to skills related specifically to anti wobbling gameplay such as running away, nana focus, and it changes the value of gaining and retaining a percentage lead.

These skills should be, for the most part, learned only for use against wobbling. In little to no other situations can these skills be applied as effectively.

It's like when there was a discussion in Brawl regarding the use of Jungle Japes in tournament. The klaptrap was killing people randomly and it became an issue if it should be allowed in tournament. Overswarm argued that the klaptrap came once every 15 seconds, and ALL you had to do was count the seconds on the clock in 15 second intervals, and approach only within those 15 second intervals.

He was right, but such skills as counting, arithmetic, and attacking in 12 second intervals detracted from more rewarding skills such as edgeguarding, comboing, shield pressure, damage racking, etc.

Therefore, I feel that rules should not allow the use of techniques that demand skillsets foreign to those used in the great majority of other situations.

I look at it like the banning of Hyrule. Yes, you can just counterpick fox, you can learn how to shoot the first laser and run away better, but these learned skills in no way benefit you in other scenarios.

So wobbling should be banned for those reasons, IMO.
It's not fair to anyone to have to spend time to learn these wobbling specific techniques when other learned techniques can prove to be more beneficial in most other scenarios.

And I remember Fly telling me "But i didn't even wobble you that much". Yeah, because my focus had to switch 100% towards avoiding the technique. You didn't choose to use it less ( I think), I did everything in my power to stop you from using it, all while faltering on other aspects of my game. Even then, I wasn't entirely successful on stopping the technique. You either killed me with it once or twice, or diminished my leads instantly. It changes the match drastically for most characters simply because it demands such a foreign skillset.

It's like a jiggly rest, except her's is only really viable when her opponent is below 50%, and never viable when she's at 80%+.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Many of the things you listed specifically as "anti-wobbling" techniques are skills that people need to have in order to do well against ICs in the first place. Yes, wobbling does warp the pay-off matrix in a lot of potential encounters, but I don't think anything is that radically different from playing against ICs without wobbling, especially for characters whom the ICs can ztd anyways, so I reject the notion that it detracts too much from "normal gameplay." Then again, "normal gameplay" isn't very well-defined and you may have a different perception of what that means than I do.

I view banning wobbling as nerfing a character(s) that isn't broken to begin with.

 

[Rosedemon]

Many of the things you listed specifically as "anti-wobbling" techniques are skills that people need to have in order to do well against ICs in the first place. Yes, wobbling does warp the pay-off matrix in a lot of potential encounters, but I don't think anything is that radically different from playing against ICs without wobbling, especially for characters whom the ICs can ztd anyways, so I reject the notion that it detracts too much from "normal gameplay." Then again, "normal gameplay" isn't very well-defined and you may have a different perception of what that means than I do.

I view banning wobbling as nerfing a character(s) that isn't broken to begin with.

This.

I thought proper spacing and good use of tech skill were used in every match up? Its just more easily seen when playing against ICs, simply because that mistake you made can lead to death as opposed to a tipper or upthrow -> upair.

Lets also not act like you dont already have to change the way you play when approaching certain mach ups.

 

[ConnorTheKid]

connor just wants it banned because he sux

i dont think there's any justification for it to be banned.

here's my reasoning for why it's banned:

1. I don't like it.
2. It's my tournament.


get ***** bruh!

 

[bbb]

ban kirby, connor

if you do this, you shall be a man in my eyes

 

[SuperRad]

ban kirby, connor

if you do this, you shall be a man in my eyes

he should just use pocky's rulesets
no kirby
freeze glitch not banned
wobbling allowed
flatzone on stage striking

 

[The Greater Leon]

i would ban the little life picture swap glitch because its gamebreaking

how can i kill 3 kirbys when my only opponent is fox?

 

[HugS™]

Many of the things you listed specifically as "anti-wobbling" techniques are skills that people need to have in order to do well against ICs in the first place. Yes, wobbling does warp the pay-off matrix in a lot of potential encounters, but I don't think anything is that radically different from playing against ICs without wobbling, especially for characters whom the ICs can ztd anyways, so I reject the notion that it detracts too much from "normal gameplay." Then again, "normal gameplay" isn't very well-defined and you may have a different perception of what that means than I do.

I view banning wobbling as nerfing a character(s) that isn't broken to begin with.

Have you ever been on the opposite side vs IC's both with and without wobbling, during high level matches?

I'm saying, there's a distinct difference in the way many characters will approach the match with this tactic allowed and with this tactic banned.

If not blatantly through technique for some characters, at least in wariness, and as you said, it warps the pay-off matrix so that a lot of techniques that would deliver enough reward for the risk no longer become viable.

Except for characters you can ZTD, as you stated.
But what characters does that include?

And as for those anti-wobbling techniques and how they don't apply to IC's without wobbling, and for any other character for that matter, I'll list one example for now, I can do more later:

With wobbling, the importance of killing nana increases exponentially, since your only purpose while she is alive is to avoid getting grabbed. Damage building takes a huge back seat since 1. It's too risky and 2. A lead is diminished quickly and easily by wobbling, making it less important.

In a non wobbling match, when nana is off the stage, and you are within range to attack me, I allow nana back in almost every single instant.

With wobbling on, I kill her, take the damage and disadvantaged position of being edgeguarded, because it is a trade off I'm supposed to take in order to possibly kill off popo and gain a stock lead.

I understand there are stylistic differences in match ups that one is supposed to take, but in no other instance must I consider additional damage and an edgeguard opportunity to my opponent's advantage as a good trade off for dealing zero damage upon him.

This isn't even demanded on a regular IC match, only in wobbling instances.



I have yet to address the fact that this effect of wobbling lasts for every stock of every match vs every character, unlike other techniques that have similar gameplay detracting effects (Jigg's rest, Brawl Falco Chaingrab) which only affect some characters, at some percentages. Furthermore, the ease of use for wobbling far exceeds that of other techniques with similar effects as well, and if not, it certainly exceeds the benefits.

 

[joeplicate]

comin wit it

 

[Fabian]

hugo just mad cuz wobbles took his *** at SCC

 

[Kira-]

meh

thinking about all this makes me a little guilty for supporting tournaments with no wobbling over it being allowed

pretty sure ICs still aren't that great of a character with it (theyr'e better of course, but not enough to greatly upset the tier list or anything)

puff is better, and rest is just as broken, if not more, than wobbling
so give ICs wobbling and they're still worse than puff lol


but then again, some characters are much easier to not get grabbed with than others. so depends on the matchup. Life's hard for a Samus main

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Have you ever been on the opposite side vs IC's both with and without wobbling, during high level matches?

I'll admit that I haven't.

I'm saying, there's a distinct difference in the way many characters will approach the match with this tactic allowed and with this tactic banned.

If not blatantly through technique for some characters, at least in wariness, and as you said, it warps the pay-off matrix so that a lot of techniques that would deliver enough reward for the risk no longer become viable.

Except for characters you can ZTD, as you stated.
But what characters does that include?

The only really important one is Sheik.

And as for those anti-wobbling techniques and how they don't apply to IC's without wobbling, and for any other character for that matter, I'll list one example for now, I can do more later:

With wobbling, the importance of killing nana increases exponentially, since your only purpose while she is alive is to avoid getting grabbed. Damage building takes a huge back seat since 1. It's too risky and 2. A lead is diminished quickly and easily by wobbling, making it less important.

In a non wobbling match, when nana is off the stage, and you are within range to attack me, I allow nana back in almost every single instant.

With wobbling on, I kill her, take the damage and disadvantaged position of being edgeguarded, because it is a trade off I'm supposed to take in order to possibly kill off popo and gain a stock lead.

I understand there are stylistic differences in match ups that one is supposed to take, but in no other instance must I consider additional damage and an edgeguard opportunity to my opponent's advantage as a good trade off for dealing zero damage upon him.

This isn't even demanded on a regular IC match, only in wobbling instances.

I agree with all of this. However, as I mentioned earlier, I think we have different perceptions of just how much deviation from normal gameplay is acceptable. Also, showing that playing against ICs with wobbling is significantly different from playing against ICs without wobbling is not equivalent to showing that wobbling leads to too much deviation from normal gameplay, whatever that means. This actually makes me question if I should accept that too much difference from normal gameplay is a good criterion for banning a tactic.

I'll see what arguments for or against wobbling I can come up with that don't make any use of wobbling being too different from the norm, since I don't think this particular argument can lead anywhere given our different assumptions about what is acceptable.

 

[pockyD]

stuff

this all only applies because you have a previously existing assumption that wobbling is NOT part of normal gameplay

if you remove falco's SHL, all of his matchups change even more than IC matchups change when removing wobbling; if we had some notion that falco's SHL "could" be banned, then applying the same "normalcy" argument hits that tactic far harder. same with sheik's dthrow, fox's waveshine, whatever

how much a tactic changes the gameplay is not relevant so long as the resulting gameplay doesn't become broken

 

[MacD]

all this wobbling talk makes me wonder, is it going to be banned at the arcadian tourney?? if not, fly you are going to teach me the timing next time i see you

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'll teach you it if I can remember it myself.

 

[Adam M!]

pretty sure ICs still aren't that great of a character with it (theyr'e better of course, but not enough to greatly upset the tier list or anything)

wholly irrelevent

puff is better, and rest is just as broken, if not more, than wobbling

LOL

 

[Kira-]

pocky speaks the truth

wholly irrelevent

it's relevant because the move doesn't change the gameplay much. everyone is still going to try to not get grabbed by ICs so it's basically the same thing, just a stronger punish. so as long as ICs don't become top tier overnight it's really not ban-worthy.

 

[HugS™]

this all only applies because you have a previously existing assumption that wobbling is NOT part of normal gameplay

if you remove falco's SHL, all of his matchups change even more than IC matchups change when removing wobbling; if we had some notion that falco's SHL "could" be banned, then applying the same "normalcy" argument hits that tactic far harder. same with sheik's dthrow, fox's waveshine, whatever

how much a tactic changes the gameplay is not relevant so long as the resulting gameplay doesn't become broken

I don't see how the same normalcy argument can be applied, since dealing with either Falco's laser or Sheik's dthrow is quite normal to how players would deal with other scenarios, including a marth grab. Falco lasering is still shield pressure, and it can be dealt with the same way one deals with other kinds of shield pressure, with the added benefit of your opponent not being near enough to capitalize. If you're getting hit by it, then it can be dealt with as a normal quick stun move.

And neither of the two could take your entire stock at any percent vs any character.

My guess is we all just have different lines where we decide what normal is. For many IC mains, the way a wobbling match goes is quite normal. Same goes for sheik mains at times, since they get zero to death chain grabbed anyways.

Most people's line is far lower, if they've ever even thought about what normal gameplay is.
If not, I am wondering why the same people even consider banning stages like Corneria, mushroom kingdom 2, and Onett. Sure, they all detract from normal gameplay, but "play to win" enthusiasts couldn't even argue that the stage is broken for certain benefiting characters. You just change up the way you play drastically in order to avoid losing on the stage.

Rather than DIing attacks normally, DI sharply to the left or right to hit a wall. Keep watch for Cars. Avoid getting shined to the walk off ledges by staying in the middle at all costs. Gain a lead and camp the fin to avoid having the same happen to you.

These are all ways to deal with the stages to prevent them from being broken for any character, yet they are banned because they detract so much from what normal gameplay has been. This should be clear even if I can't provide a solid definition for what "normal gameplay" is.

Just as results don't back up the fact that wobbling is broken, the same goes for stages that were gotten rid of years ago.
Fox had Onett and yoshi's island (Pipes) for all of 2005 and most of 2006, and they still weren't winning tournaments. Results certainly didn't show any kind of brokenness.

So where do we draw the line? Must a said technique/stage win all kinds of national events for the abusing player before we ban it? Why? That's never been the case before.

 

[Adam M!]

it's relevant because the move doesn't change the gameplay much. everyone is still going to try to not get grabbed by ICs so it's basically the same thing, just a stronger punish. so as long as ICs don't become top tier overnight it's really not ban-worthy.

be more results oriented

 

[HugS™]

pocky speaks the truth



it's relevant because the move doesn't change the gameplay much. everyone is still going to try to not get grabbed by ICs so it's basically the same thing, just a stronger punish. so as long as ICs don't become top tier overnight it's really not ban-worthy.

Trying to not get grabbed is what I do vs Sheik and IC's.

Trying to not get grabbed at ALL costs is what I do vs IC's when they wobble.

There's a HUGE difference that you're not aware of, because as a sheik main you get ***** with or without wobbling My condolences.

And read my stage argument for why there's no reason to wait for IC's to become top tier to ban the technique. That's never really even been the criteria for banning before.

Whoops, i coulda sworn I hit the edit button, my bad.

 

[Zephyr]

Pardon me, but isn't high level play usually about not getting grabbed/hit anyways? As I recall, in a finals match vs. Azn Lep a while back wobbling wasn't banned, but I'd spend the entire time trying to not get grabbed by Ice Climbers anyways, so it didn't make much of a difference in my playstyle. A smart player just platform camps Ice Climbers regardless of Wobbling's legality, so why should it really matter?

 

[Adam M!]

except you might drill shine an ICs w/o wobbling because although you may get grabbed, the risk vs reward of success makes it worth doing. but wobbling tilts that to an extreme, so maybe you think twice and just platform camp and don't do anything remotely risky because the reward for the ICs of getting one grab will get rid of an entire stock of work.

you may or may not agree with the specific example but that is one of hugo's points that is really inarguable imo

 

[HugS™]

Trying to not get grabbed is what I do vs Sheik and IC's.

Trying to not get grabbed at ALL costs is what I do vs IC's when they wobble.

There's a HUGE difference that you're not aware of, because as a sheik main you get ***** with or without wobbling My condolences.

There's a difference in the way you should play vs wobbling and without. If you're not employing any kind of a difference, and you're not a character that gets ZTD easily by IC's without wobbling, then there's seriously something wrong with the way you play the matchup.

 

[Adam M!]

fly has yet to ztd me without wobbling when i'm sheik so i think that matters too; the ease of doing wobbling perfectly -- you will almost never mess up, so let's say 98% -- vs the easy of ztd via other means (mess up maybe 10%? just a random number)

 

[Zephyr]

except you might drill shine an ICs w/o wobbling because although you may get grabbed, the risk vs reward of success makes it worth doing. but wobbling tilts that to an extreme, so maybe you think twice and just platform camp and don't do anything remotely risky because the reward for the ICs of getting one grab will get rid of an entire stock of work.

you may or may not agree with the specific example but that is one of hugo's points that is really inarguable imo

IMO, nair shine against an IC's shield is practically unpunishable if followed up correctly. I can pretty much shield pressure IC's all day with impunity if I'm smart about it.

 

[pockyD]

i disagree with the base assumption that the difficulty of a tactic should correspond directly to the reward you receive

and even if it were so, getting a properly sync'd grab on an opponent that outskills you? not easy in the slightest

and hugo once again, you play differently vs wobbling, but we would ALL play differently vs falco if he couldn't SHL... what's the difference?

 

[Lovage]

IMO, nair shine against an IC's shield is practically unpunishable if followed up correctly. I can pretty much shield pressure IC's all day with impunity if I'm smart about it.

hellllll no

at least dont try it against fly
mess up and ur screwed

just do drills instead and space bairs when their shield gets low

 

[Zephyr]

Oh spaced bair, how I adore thee. <3

Seriously, that **** is broken. XD

 

[HugS™]

i disagree with the base assumption that the difficulty of a tactic should correspond directly to the reward you receive

and even if it were so, getting a properly sync'd grab on an opponent that outskills you? not easy in the slightest

and hugo once again, you play differently vs wobbling, but we would ALL play differently vs falco if he couldn't SHL... what's the difference?

I only bring up the differences in playing IC's with wobbling vs No wobbling to address those people who assume it's the same thing.

Playing against falco with and without SHL, while different vs falco, both styles can still be compared to the way you'd play against most other characters.

In no other match would one play how he'd play against wobbling. That's the difference.

 

[pockyD]

Playing against falco with and without SHL, while different vs falco, both styles can still be compared to the way you'd play against most other characters.

can you clarify why this is the case?

playing vs falco with SHL is unlike almost any other character

and playing vs IC is different from playing any other character, period... there's ****ing two of 'em! if the 'radically different' character argument is to be used, then we should ban ICs altogether

 

[Adam M!]

falco is good enough that he'd still be one of the best characters w/o lasers

his nair would simply become more dominant; good falcos (like mangos) already spam it

just like you can't move in the space that a laser occupies, if you're in nair range you're stuck as well. it's fairly similar

 

[HugS™]

can you clarify why this is the case?

playing vs falco with SHL is unlike almost any other character

True, but it demands a similar skillset just to a higher extreme. Dealing with shieldpressure and general pressure all together are skills that are learned and used vs every other character, with Falco dealing pressure best.

and playing vs IC is different from playing any other character, period... there's ****ing two of 'em! if the 'radically different' character argument is to be used, then we should ban ICs altogether

Very true, I'll see if I can think of a point against this a bit later.

 

[pockyD]

falco is good enough that he'd still be one of the best characters w/o lasers

his nair would simply become more dominant; good falcos (like mangos) already spam it

just like you can't move in the space that a laser occupies, if you're in nair range you're stuck as well. it's fairly similar

yeah falco would still be good, but he'd definitely lose a huge chunk of how his game is played now

and more specifically, if he loses the laser, he just becomes mostly a lousy fox with slightly better combo potential in some situations

anyway, it's not unlike how if you take wobbling away from ICs, they wouldn't perform significantly worse, even if the playstyle had to change up (which it wouldn't as much as falco's)

 

[Kira-]

falco would be so easy without lasers =D omg i could camp his *** so hard and he couldnt do anything

but hugo i see what you mean with the stages comparison.

i'll think about this more as i do hw