Concerning the Issue of Characters Not Returning

[FirestormNeos]

I remember hearing somewhere about 47 characters being in the game, with 33/35 (would Mii count as one or three?) already announced. Not sure if this is legit, though if it is, I can see most non-clone veterans returning with room for a few more newcomers.

However, if it's not legit, and we get less then 47, they are going to have to actually kill you cut characters who were in previous games.

Which brings us to our point of debate, how many characters do you think still have time to be confirmed, and if less then 14, who has the highest chances of getting cut?

So far, the veterans who have not yet been confirmed include Snake, Roy, Lucas, Mewtwo, Ness, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., Meta Knight, Ganondorf, Falco, Wario, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Wolf, Ivysaur and Squirtle, Dr. Mario, Young Link, Ice Climbers, and Pichu.

Discuss.

edit: I really need to learn how to math.

 

[MetalMario128]

I think the most likely 3 to be cut, along with Squirtle and Ivysaur, are Snake, Wolf, and Lucas.

Even though I'd rather not lose characters.

 

[FirestormNeos]

I think the most likely 3 to be cut, along with Squirtle and Ivysaur, are Snake, Wolf, and Lucas.

Even though I'd rather not lose characters.

Snake is third party, so his fans are going to need a miracle for him to show up. Lucas and Wolf are kinda different from their counterparts, but I think it would be wiser to scrap wolf, and have Falco take over his oddities (slightly upward side-b, different shaped reflector, etc) so he's less of a clone.

 

[Cobalsh]

I honestly think Wolf should stay and Falco should be cut if a SF character is cut, veteran status and "tournament goodness" be damned. If we had cuts, I would pick it in this order:

Squirtle>Ivysaur>Snake>Lucas>Falco>R.O.B.>Ice Climbers>Ganondorf

and stop the cuts there. But hopefully it won't go as far as Lucas.

 

[Your Hero]

I'm super iffy about Falco's chances. No matter what I don't see his inclusion in Sm4sh working out if they decided to keep him over Wolf, because I assume the entire reason why Falco is so popular is due to his minor differences with Fox.

The differences between Falco and Fox are the same as the differences between Lucas and Ness. If you keep Falco in then essentially he will have the exact same special moves (+ custom options) as Fox. You can't really compare Falco's situation with Toon Link either because Toon Link is from an alternate universe, so even though he's a clone he also differs in ways that can't be replicated with Falco (height, art style, etc).

Falco isn't going to adopt Wolf's moves because that's just idiotic. It would be like giving Chrom Ike's moves (if they decided to cut Ike). It would be more logical to just keep Wolf over Falco, especially since Wolf is a main villain in the Star Fox series (compared to Falco being an ally).

Then the third would be to give him a completely new moveset. But again, Falco's popularity in Smash Bros stems from him being an "alternate Fox". Giving him a new moveset will IMO not be a good idea because unlike Ganondorf's case, Falco fans do not want him to have a new moveset.

So I mean, in the end the only way Falco should be returning is as an alternate for Fox. But that doesn't seem to follow the MO for alternate costumes.

--

I get that Falco is popular but every scenario IMO looks bad for him thanks to the inclusion of custom moves. I feel the same way about Lucas (would love to see a new Earthbound rep though, like Porky).

 

[Neerb]

I think the Gematsu leak is true, the roster hits 47, and we're keeping everyone from Brawl except Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, and Lucas.

However, I would gladly sacrifice another character for Ray. Falco or Wolf are the obvious choices.

I'd also cut Zero Suit Samus and Sheik for Ridley and Impa, respectively, but the April direct ruined that dream.

 

[Raetah]

Honestly i think that all the characters that were in at least two previous titles of smash are probably going to be back.
Ivysaur, Squirtle and Snake are extremely unlikely.
The five cutted characters of Melee are unlikely, even Mewtwo, as much as fans want it.
R.O.B., Meta Knight and Wario are going to be back.
Wolf and Lucas are the only characters that make me doubt, those characters were in many lists of possible cuts alongside Toon Link, Lucario, Ike... But as you can see, all of those characters are back, so Wolf and Lucas may return too.

 

[Speculator]

I could see a roster of around 48 characters. That's including all the currently confirmed characters, Chrom, Shulk, The Chorus Kids, one additional newcomer and excluding Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur and Lucas.

This is assuming you 100% believe the Sal leak, which I'm still not sure I do. The comments about Lucas are particularly concerning - I think it would be a huge waste to cut Mother back down to only one rep when Star Fox is hogging three slots with variations of the same character.

 

[mahnamahna]

If there's DLC, I'd say everyone from Brawl, along with a couple from Melee, will be back. Lucas, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, Mewtwo, Roy... 52 characters at release, those 6 DLC veterans, and 6 DLC newcomers (Krystal, Sceptile, Captain Toad, Impa, Dixie Kong, Chibi-Robo)

 

[Cpt.]

Well Squirtle is definitely gone..... and just when I was getting good with him in PM. The rest is really hard to say.

 

[Speculator]

If there's DLC, I'd say everyone from Brawl, along with a couple from Melee, will be back. Lucas, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, Mewtwo, Roy... 52 characters at release, those 6 DLC veterans, and 6 DLC newcomers (Krystal, Sceptile, Captain Toad, Impa, Dixie Kong, Chibi-Robo)

Yeah, I think if DLC does happen then anyone missing from the Brawl roster should be top priority. Kojima is quite happy for them to use Snake again, so I don't think they'd have a lot of trouble if they wanted to bring him back post-release. The Melee characters (with the exception of Mewtwo) are less important, so I think once the Brawl leftovers are back they should start focusing on DLC newcomers.

 

[MetalMario128]

Snake is third party, so his fans are going to need a miracle for him to show up. Lucas and Wolf are kinda different from their counterparts, but I think it would be wiser to scrap wolf, and have Falco take over his oddities (slightly upward side-b, different shaped reflector, etc) so he's less of a clone.

Oops, forgot about Snake. 4 then.

 

[FirestormNeos]

You can't really compare Falco's situation with Toon Link either because Toon Link is from an alternate universe, so even though he's a clone he also differs in ways that can't be replicated with Falco (height, art style, etc).

Plus, Toon Link is floatier then Regular Link, and his side-b is worth a darn.

Falco isn't going to adopt Wolf's moves because that's just idiotic. It would be like giving Chrom Ike's moves (if they decided to cut Ike). It would be more logical to just keep Wolf over Falco, especially since Wolf is a main villain in the Star Fox series (compared to Falco being an ally).

I didn't say my solution was logical. Only that it was better then bringing in a clone.[/quote]

However, I would gladly sacrifice another character for Ray. Falco or Wolf are the obvious choices.

A lot of people also seem to hate R.O.B.

I'd also cut Zero Suit Samus and Sheik for Ridley and Impa, respectively, but the April direct ruined that dream.

ridley fan tears are delicious. Light Years from that of chocolate milk, but they taste good nonetheless.

 

[Neerb]

A lot of people also seem to hate R.O.B.

Heck no, ROB is awesome.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I believe the Sal Leak... Ithink. Though that leak is, to me, just the starting/revealed roster.

That said; I believe the characters not returning will be

Falco (customization and villains);
Ness (both he and Falco being phased out);
Snake;
Jigglypuff;
Squirtle
Ivysaur

A good part of me even wants to say Ganondorf for Ganon, but I will call that a substitution for this sake anywho.

but there is a thread already for characters ho will be cut.

I believe Mewtwo will be back. If I had my way, I'd also have cut Toon Link and Sheik, and added in Vaati and Impa, myself.

Yeah, I think if DLC does happen then anyone missing from the Brawl roster should be top priority. Kojima is quite happy for them to use Snake again, so I don't think they'd have a lot of trouble if they wanted to bring him back post-release. The Melee characters (with the exception of Mewtwo) are less important, so I think once the Brawl leftovers are back they should start focusing on DLC newcomers.

I think it depends why they were cut. If they were on the original roster and were cut, time restraints, sure. If they were cut to balance the game, no. There are characters in Brawl that just neednt be there. Squirtle is my favorite character, and not just in the game- no, in general in the universe. It does not mean he deserves to be in. I would love it if he were, but I think if K Rool is not in, King K has priority as DLC. Just as one example. If you are DLC, you, to me, have more merit if you were not in a previous title. I'd say about two thirds of the DLC should be fresh faces, especially if the goal is to earn money.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Ness (both he and Falco being phased out);

For whom? Lucas?

 

[Koopaul]

I'm under the impression that if a character was in both Melee and Brawl, they're guaranteed to be in this one.

That means Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, Captain Falcon, Falco, and Jigglypuff are still in this game.

 

[Your Hero]

I didn't say my solution was logical. Only that it was better then bringing in a clone.

I wasn't responding to you specifically with that, I was just going over all the things Sakurai and co could do with Falco. My apologies!

 

[Trigger123]

I believe PT, Lucas, snake, and maybe ROB will be gone. I know a ROB is on both sides people like and don't like but I kind of hope he gets cut I was never a fan and would prefer a newcomer. Meta knight will be back but not near as strong as brawl.
As for wolf and falco I think they would both be back and I would prefer wolf over falco he is just as iconic

 

[pupNapoleon]

Yeah, I think if DLC does happen then anyone missing from the Brawl roster should be top priority. Kojima is quite happy for them to use Snake again, so I don't think they'd have a lot of trouble if they wanted to bring him back post-release. The Melee characters (with the exception of Mewtwo) are less important, so I think once the Brawl leftovers are back they should start focusing on DLC newcomers.

For whom? Lucas?

Yes. I think it makes sense. He is aesthetically more appealing, was initially the rep sakurai wanted, and could allow Sakurai to send two of the o12 home (jiggs)

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Yes. I think it makes sense. He is aesthetically more appealing, was initially the rep sakurai wanted, and could allow Sakurai to send two of the o12 home (jiggs)

I don't know, I don't want either of the Mother boys gone. But I prefer Mother 3 as a game... Hmmm...

 

[Koopaul]

Ness is a veteran. I doubt he'd kick him out. Lucas has something to worry about.

 

[Deathcarter]

I'm actually pretty optimistic about the veterans returning:

-Squirtle and Ivysaur will probably be cut, but I think everyone else from Brawl is pretty safe if Ike made it. As much as I love him, I feel he'd of probably been the first to be considered for cutting after Squirtle and Ivy as he had a viable replacement unlike Falco, Wolf, or Lucas.

-Snake will be in unless Konami randomly decided to be *****. He's simply to popular a character and too big a draw to be cut just because "oh he's not Nintendo enough" or because of some arbitrary cap of 3 third party characters. If Nintendo ponied up for Snake during Brawl, they'll be willing to for Smash 4 since they want to move Wii U's and 3DS's.

-This whole thing about Lucas being considered for being cut this soon before the release date is ludicrous. Sakurai has explicitly stated they have finalized the roster at the beginning of development. You can talk about how Sal got Mii Fighter's name all you want, the word of the director holds much more weight in my eyes then any sort of leak.

-Mewtwo I'm less sure on, but I think Sakurai will want to leave Pokémon at six characters since that's what they had in Brawl and he's the most obvious choice for a sixth rep.

 

[Neerb]

This whole thing about Lucas being considered for being cut this soon before the release date is ludicrous. Sakurai has explicitly stated they have finalized the roster at the beginning of development. You can talk about how Sal got Mii Fighter's name all you want, the word of the director holds much more weight in my eyes then any sort of leak.

The leaker clearly either does not have all the information or chooses to release stuff at random, as with his missing Rosalina, so it's entirely possible that the Lucas vs Ness debate was just the last thing he had heard on the matter and he was waiting to tell people. The X/Y Pokemon was in a similar situation; Greninja had been added to the roster long before he leaked "an X/Y Pokemon," but we know from "the word of the director" that they knew before seeing Greninja's concept art that they would be using an X/Y Pokemon, and that's likely the last the leaker heard of it. So, it's possible he knew that a Mother character had a spot on the roster, but the team hadn't yet decided who would get it (if only one can be in).

Obviously, the leaker could be wrong; we won't know for sure until we see a leaked character deconfirmed for ourselves or he comes out as a fake. However, saying his leak was "too close to release date" doesn't make sense. Just because he waited until now to tell us does not mean it actually happened recently.

On an unrelated note, I feel like I've seen a strange number of people on this forum say they think Ganondorf, a two-time vet and one of the biggest characters of the biggest franchises, might be cut. My question for those people is: what? This isn't Wolf, a part-time anti-hero who showed up in 3 games in a franchise that hasn't seen a new title in 6 years, or Lucas, a character from a dead series that only had 3 games total yet has 2 reps only 1 of whom even had his game released outside Japan (hint: it's not Lucas). This is freaking GANON, KING OF EVIL. "But he's a clone!" So was Luigi, but they're important characters so they get leeway, he's not freaking Roy or Pichu or Dr. Mario.

 

[Z1GMA]

14 more characters, hmm...

1. Ridley
2. Ridley
3. Ridley
4. Ridley
5. Ridley
6. Ridley
7. Ridley
8. Ridley
9. Ridley
10. Ridley
11. Ridley
12. Ridley
13. Ridley
14. Ridley

 

[Arcadenik]

I don't mind cutting Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, and Falco.

This way, Star Fox still has a villain and Mother still has two characters. Lucas plays very differently from Ness... not just the special moves but also the normal A moves.

Veterans
1. Ness
2. Captain Falcon
3. Jigglypuff
4. Mewtwo
5. Ganondorf
6. Mr. Game & Watch
7. Ice Climbers
8. R.O.B.
9. Wolf
10. Wario
11. Meta Knight
12. Lucas

Newcomers
13. Chrom
14. Shulk
15. Chorus Men

33 confirmed characters + 15 unconfirmed characters = 48 characters on the roster.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm actually pretty optimistic about the veterans returning:

-Squirtle and Ivysaur will probably be cut, but I think everyone else from Brawl is pretty safe if Ike made it. As much as I love him, I feel he'd of probably been the first to be considered for cutting after Squirtle and Ivy as he had a viable replacement unlike Falco, Wolf, or Lucas.

I think it is silly to keep a veteran just to keep them, especially if there are better options. Also, better options? The three you mention after Squirtle and Ivy arguably all have 'better options,' all being considered a version of another character in some capacity or another.

-Snake will be in unless Konami randomly decided to be ****s. He's simply to popular a character and too big a draw to be cut just because "oh he's not Nintendo enough" or because of some arbitrary cap of 3 third party characters. If Nintendo ponied up for Snake during Brawl, they'll be willing to for Smash 4 since they want to move Wii U's and 3DS's.

They did not seem to know about snake. Again, adding him just to add him would be weird, especially against the three third party guys we have currently. Now he sticks out even more. His creator giving him no credence just makes it even more strange.

On an unrelated note, I feel like I've seen a strange number of people on this forum say they think Ganondorf, a two-time vet and one of the biggest characters of the biggest franchises, might be cut. My question for those people is: what? This isn't Wolf, a part-time anti-hero who showed up in 3 games in a franchise that hasn't seen a new title in 6 years, or Lucas, a character from a dead series that only had 3 games total yet has 2 reps only 1 of whom even had his game released outside Japan (hint: it's not Lucas). This is freaking GANON, KING OF EVIL. "But he's a clone!" So was Luigi, but they're important characters so they get leeway, he's not freaking Roy or Pichu or Dr. Mario.

Cut for Ganon. Ganondorf was was so poorly represented with his moveset, and Falcon could possibly cover some of those adaptations with a customizable set. This is the game a lot of characters are getting redesigned, so why not Ganondorf? He could just get his sword, or he could become his menacing, fully dark Ganon self.

 

[JUCE001]

MR. GW was sort of leaked in the pacman release video towards the end. I think that's a hint that he'll definitely be in the game.

Chrom might be the replacement for marth. NOT IN THE ROSTER. but those who were at the invitational said that marth is going to be more of a grounded character. I think if Chrom is in the game he will be very aerial based.

Lucas should be cut. I feel he is just a nerfed ness.
Wolf should be cut.
Roy should not come back. Unless they buff him up a lot.
Ganon should be in. He is just fun to f*** with people.
The pokemon other then Lucario and Charizard should also be cut.

Other then that I just want my captain falcon to be amazing.

edit: I would also love if shadow was playable.

In the shadow the hedgehog game he was intense.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Ivysaur and Squirtle are by far the easiest cuts here, they have a hard time standing on their own without daddy Charizard carrying them. Greninja also took away Squirtle's water shenigans, and I don't think they'll just randomly cut one of the three but keep the other two, so Ivysaur will likely go too.

Lucas is another easy cut if it has to go beyond that, almost no one in the west has any relation to him outside of Smash, and Mother 3 is heavily criticized in Japan as it is. He's also a one-time semi-clone, so not as big of a loss as an entirely unique character or a fan favorite semi-clone like Falco.

Snake is a bit iffy. It really depends, but if he isn't in the inevitable August Direct, the last Direct before Smash releases for the 3DS, then he's probably not in.

All cut Melee veterans are likely staying out, with Mewtwo being the only one who even has a remote chance. That would require for Pokémon to get 6 playable characters though, he's not getting in before Jigglypuff I'm sure as he was already outprioritized by her in Brawl. 6 Pokémon aren't that unlikely though, after all that's the amount of movesets the franchise had in Brawl too, so if you look at Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard all as individual in Brawl it'd make sense to keep the Pokémon representation at 6 rather than dumping it down, and Mewtwo is obviously first in line for that.

I'm banking on the rest of the Brawl cast to be back, there's little reason to cut anyone beyond the ones I mentioned.

 

[Trigger123]

Yeah, I think if DLC does happen then anyone missing from the Brawl roster should be top priority. Kojima is quite happy for them to use Snake again, so I don't think they'd have a lot of trouble if they wanted to bring him back post-release. The Melee characters (with the exception of Mewtwo) are less important, so I think once the Brawl leftovers are back they should start focusing on DLC newcomers.

What I would find kind of intresting for DLC would be bringing back all cut players as one DLC. Yes including young link, pichu, ect. But if all those characters had a big boost I actually would not mind and if mewtwo ends up not in the game, people would buy it just for him alone.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Squirtle and Ivysaur are going to be cut. No doubt about it.

The only other characters from Brawl that I think may be cut are Snake and Lucas.
Snake because he doesn't really fit with Smash 4's style (sometimes I think that Brawl was so dark just so Snake would fit in), and Metal Gear has little to no ties with Nintendo nowadays (every MG game has been Xbox and PS only).
Lucas because he is low-priority. He is from a very small series (though it does have a huge cult fanbase), and is a clone of Ness. He is basically the Roy of Brawl, a clone put in to represent the most recent game in a smaller series. Not to mention the Gematsu leak (which has a 99% chance of being true, due to the Sneaky Spirits in Smash Run), suggested he would be cut.

Everyone else from Brawl should be safe.

Though I do think that Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Lucas would be the first choices for DLC, if we do indeed get it.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

WOlf, Lucas, Snake, and R.O.B., aside from Squirtle and Ivysaur, have the greatest chances of cut.

Wolf may be the villain of Star Fox but Falco's been in since Melee (and imo Is much more interesting in character)
Lucas, I don't think is leaving because he is diufferent from Ness so much. I think they'll both stick around.
Snake, is pretty much dead because 4 third parties is pushin it.
R.O.B. is not too well liked, and seems sorta like a filler. He's not as important as the likes of Meta Knight, Falco, Ganondorf, and Mewtwo.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

WOlf, Lucas, Snake, and R.O.B., aside from Squirtle and Ivysaur, have the greatest chances of cut.

Wolf may be the villain of Star Fox but Falco's been in since Melee (and imo Is much more interesting in character)
Lucas, I don't think is leaving because he is diufferent from Ness so much. I think they'll both stick around.
Snake, is pretty much dead because 4 third parties is pushin it.
R.O.B. is not too well liked, and seems sorta like a filler. He's not as important as the likes of Meta Knight, Falco, Ganondorf, and Mewtwo.

I really doubt that R.O.B. is cut.

I would have thought that Lucas is safe, but then the Sal leak attacked. Then again, it seems like he's working with outdated information, and he was unsure to begin with, so Lucas may have a fighting chance.

Snake is dead yeah.

Wolf is complicated, the situation with Star Fox is complicated. I could see either of them getting cut. But it may be more likely that neither of them will be cut. I honestly hope that one of them is cut, but I don't have more of an attachment to one or the other.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I have a 50 character roster that keeps both Ness, Lucas, Falco, and Wolf, and R.O.B. which I believe to be our probably final roster.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

I have a 50 character roster that keeps both Ness, Lucas, Falco, and Wolf, and R.O.B. which I believe to be our probably final roster.

Who are the newcomers?

 

[Speculator]

A lot of people are severely overestimating Wolf's status as a "villain" as a point in his favor. It should be obvious by now, regardless of what you think, that Sakurai doesn't believe the game needs more villains. Simply being a villain (which means that in the context of the Star Fox games he has less on-screen time, less dialog and less development) isn't enough for them to keep him in the game over Falco, a secondary protagonist and two-game SSB veteran. Granted, Wolf is also a more radical departure from the Star Fox character formula, but not all returning characters have to play exactly the same as they did in the previous game. Without Wolf, there's room to modify Falco and have two strongly different Star Fox characters.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Who are the newcomers?

All of the Sal Leak + Takamaru really.

 

[Speculator]

All of the Sal Leak + Takamaru really.

Takamaru is also the additional newcomer I had in mind when I made this post, but I took out a few characters to bring it to 48. I assume you kept Snake and Lucas - how come you believe the Sal leak up to the new characters, but not the part about "apparently Lucas is likely to get the cut"? Interested to hear because I'm still very unsure about the leak myself.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Takamaru is also the additional newcomer I had in mind when I made this post, but I took out a few characters to bring it to 48. I assume you kept Snake and Lucas - how come you believe the Sal leak up to the new characters, but not the part about "apparently Lucas is likely to get the cut"? Interested to hear because I'm still very unsure about the leak myself.

Snake is cut.

because I believe what was said was not that they WOULD cut Ness or Lucas, but that they were CONSIDERING doing so.

 

[Niala]

A lot of people are severely overestimating Wolf's status as a "villain" as a point in his favor. It should be obvious by now, regardless of what you think, that Sakurai doesn't believe the game needs more villains. Simply being a villain (which means that in the context of the Star Fox games he has less on-screen time, less dialog and less development) isn't enough for them to keep him in the game over Falco, a secondary protagonist and two-game SSB veteran. Granted, Wolf is also a more radical departure from the Star Fox character formula, but not all returning characters have to play exactly the same as they did in the previous game. Without Wolf, there's room to modify Falco and have two strongly different Star Fox characters.

This is entirely true. To add onto it, Falco had made such a massive change from Melee to Brawl that he doesn't even play similarly to Fox anymore. Arguing "they're clones" would be like arguing Luigi can't be in because he shares a few specials with Mario, or Toon Link couldn't return because he's a lot like Link.

I think the only characters people can actually argue right now are Squirtle, Ivysaur, Snake, and, though it pains me to say it, Lucas. They're the only characters who have had any indication they won't be returning, Squirtle and Ivysaur because of Charizard's solo reveal, Snake because he's third party, and Lucas because of the Gematsu leak, regardless of the fact that I choose not to accept it. I don't think we can infer much beyond that, although I suppose if we're arguing which characters that I couldn't care less seeing them return, Ness and the Ice Climbers pretty much sum that up.