Data Comprehensive Bowser Jr. changes in Smash Ultimate

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#2
Love this! Won't know it will all ultimately mean especially after further patches but in general it sounds like using Jr and Koopalings will be just a bit easier all around.
 

Call_Me_Red

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#3
That D-throw buff is insane. I honestly hope Bowser Jr. gets some more buffs in the future. He was completely nonviable in SSB4, and these buffs don't seem like enough to get him up a few tiers.
 

Sonnet

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#4
While some of our raw data looks/feels better, it's important to note that the knockback changes in Ultimate outright NEUTERED our mid% combo potential.

In 4, kart to uair was THE go-to option for mid and late percent, as it was guarenteed and helped us string uairs together to push our opponents into high%. If the stock went late enough, kart to uair because a guaranteed kill option that was useful for finishing off those later stocks. Now, because characters FLY back at mid and high%, this stops working completely around 60-70%.

Another one that took a hit is dair to fair/bair, which was another nice mid% tool. In this game, it stops working a lot sooner (around 40-50%) than it did in 4, which is another blow to our mid stock presence.

One I haven't tested yet is the kill with upB out of a mechakoopa blast, which was a rare occurrence but I found it useful from time to time. In 4 it was easy to line up and hit with the knockback, but in this game it seems at least more difficult, if at all possible. I could be wrong- since it's a lot more situational, I haven't really seen it play out ideally. Will need to play with it, eventually.

Overall, the general change to knockback in the game kind of destroyed some of the little intricacies that I feel helped give Jr some more presence overall. It's nice that we got some raw buffs, but the changes to the game as a whole HURT. I played nothing but Jr in 4, and it breaks my heart to see that a lot of the finer points to his kit were indirectly attacked by this.
 

platomaker

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#5
I think I found something new with the SideB but I want to wait for my next tournament. I'll post videos on my youtube channel eventually.

addendum:
also I don't know the significance of this new finding is, still investigating. Will report findings eventually.
 
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platomaker

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#6
I think I found something new with the SideB but I want to wait for my next tournament. I'll post videos on my youtube channel eventually.

addendum:
also I don't know the significance of this new finding is, still investigating. Will report findings eventually.

https://youtu.be/B4SXjdSn4_M

you can't upB out of cart anymore right- so instead you get this upward drift if you try to attempt it. you can see it in the middle of this match I had.
 
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#7
The mecha koopa now drop on the floor and can safely be picked up be the opponent when it hit his shield.
Also, while it might just be me, I'm pretty sure that the hit from the clown cart during upB connect better to the explosion at high % then on the wiiu
I think I found something new with the SideB but I want to wait for my next tournament. I'll post videos on my youtube channel eventually.

addendum:
also I don't know the significance of this new finding is, still investigating. Will report findings eventually.
I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about and did it multiple times in an online match and have it on replay but can't seem to able replicate it again (been trying for like 2 hours >.>)
 
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#8
In 4, kart to uair was THE go-to option for mid and late percent, as it was guarenteed and helped us string uairs together to push our opponents into high%. If the stock went late enough, kart to uair because a guaranteed kill option that was useful for finishing off those later stocks. Now, because characters FLY back at mid and high%, this stops working completely around 60-70%.
I noticed this too. I kept trying to follow up with kart to u-air and it just doesn't connected at most percents. In Smash 4 I could actually secure skills with it and now it doesn't even connect at like 50%. I'm honestly shocked.

Like.... what am I supposed to do after landing side-b? The opponent just goes flying too quickly to do anything. At some high percents it can still combo into hammer still, it seems. But to be honest this is a pretty big nerf.

Between this, mechakoopa nerfs, grab nerf, and dair followup nerfs, I'm feeling really disappointed. We have a better jab, cannon, and d throw but I don't really think that makes up for it.
 
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platomaker

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#9
the game made the UpB carbomb connect better, but some faster characters can still slip out.

The rising cart, I mistakingly thought you have to hold up while doing it, but that's not it. Its on the bounce. The Side B is all about timing your spin out. Strong armor attacks, and now, rising cart action.

The mecha koopa is a nerf, but also a buff since it now pins to opponents and blasts after a hit. You can still detonate the mechakoopa after wards with a fire attack or bomb, pick it up mid combo, etc.
I think the changes were made to make him (or her) more viable in teams.
 
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Sonnet

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#10
I noticed this too. I kept trying to follow up with kart to u-air and it just doesn't connected at most percents. In Smash 4 I could actually secure skills with it and now it doesn't even connect at like 50%. I'm honestly shocked.

Like.... what am I supposed to do after landing side-b? The opponent just goes flying too quickly to do anything. At some high percents it can still combo into hammer still, it seems. But to be honest this is a pretty big nerf.

Between this, mechakoopa nerfs, grab nerf, and dair followup nerfs, I'm feeling really disappointed. We have a better jab, cannon, and d throw but I don't really think that makes up for it.
This is it, chief. The perfect TL;DR of how Junior feels right now.

We MAY be able to get an extra uAir off out of kart at later percents, since kart no longer eats our double jump. Though I'm pretty sure there's a lag before we're allowed to jump again, and the opponent would likely get out of hitstun before we're able to get up there. I'd have to play with it, but hopes aren't very high.

Feels like our combo game went to complete **** with these knockback changes, and I honestly couldn't be more upset. I loved this character to death in S4- had so many little intricacies that made playing him such a blast. If this is really our fate in Ultimate, though....I don't know what to say.

https://youtu.be/B4SXjdSn4_M

you can't upB out of cart anymore right- so instead you get this upward drift if you try to attempt it. you can see it in the middle of this match I had.
So I actually want to correct this- though I might be wrong- I think we were allowed to upB out of kart in S4 because the kart always ignored your preference for tap jump. If you turned tap jump off, you could still jump cancel kart by tapping up on the joystick. I'm thinking that the game counted upB as part of the tap jump, because it doesn't work in Ultimate if you turn it off. However, with tap jump ON, kart to upB is still very doable, and is still a guaranteed kill setup.

Since I ****ing hate tap jump, but need to cancel my kart somehow, I'm going to bind R to jump for this game and use it as my "cancel sideB, please" button for combos. That way, I can connect sideB, quickly press R to cancel, and then upB for the guaranteed combo. Still works just fine, I think the change to tap jump while in kart is the culprit for thinking otherwise.
 

platomaker

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#12
So I actually want to correct this- though I might be wrong- I think we were allowed to upB out of kart in S4 because the kart always ignored your preference for tap jump. If you turned tap jump off, you could still jump cancel kart by tapping up on the joystick. I'm thinking that the game counted upB as part of the tap jump, because it doesn't work in Ultimate if you turn it off. However, with tap jump ON, kart to upB is still very doable, and is still a guaranteed kill setup.

Since I ****ing hate tap jump, but need to cancel my kart somehow, I'm going to bind R to jump for this game and use it as my "cancel sideB, please" button for combos. That way, I can connect sideB, quickly press R to cancel, and then upB for the guaranteed combo. Still works just fine, I think the change to tap jump while in kart is the culprit for thinking otherwise.
Did you test it?
If it does still work, then jumping out of cart should be enough, which I can still do and then upB afterwards. In smash 4 the transition was seamless, this game gives an extra second delay. If what you say is true then that's lab material.
 

Sonnet

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#13
Did you test it?
If it does still work, then jumping out of cart should be enough, which I can still do and then upB afterwards. In smash 4 the transition was seamless, this game gives an extra second delay. If what you say is true then that's lab material.
Yup, I went into Training and was able to get it just as consistently as before. Hell, with tap jump on, it was basically the exact same motion as before.

One of things I noticed, however, is that you have to drift a little bit in the air to follow your opponent's trajectory. It's a bit hard to describe in text, but basically when you hit your opponent, they get launched slightly to the right or left, depending on which side you hit them. To compensate for that, you just need to hold your joystick in that same direction as you launch up, before the hammer swing. If you go straight up, it doesn't connect as easily, but if you follow their drift then it's a guaranteed connection, as it was before.

One of these days I'll throw up a video with my first impressions/things I've noticed like this.
 

platomaker

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#14
Yeah I managed it with tapjump off, that definitely makes the character look a little better than the doom and gloom people were going off about earlier.
 

ssbAvocado

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#15
this is a source primarily from a Jr. from Mexico called Tropped, as well as the Ultimate Jr. discord for those wondering
 

platomaker

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#16
there's gotta be more to this character, just seems like the only thing that carried over were trapping the opponent. The Neutral B was buffed and stays active even after a shield: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb-ZB3asj_w
it just seems we were really made to spam on advantage, even UpB from cart seems to have slowed a bit. My old combos have to have a delay or be indirect in some fashion. Haven't broken a shield in a while either.
 
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#17
Went on an ill conceived Wendy bender after being inspired by yesterday's nonsense. Noticed that the cannon can grab ledges at any point of the animation. Was that always the case? Anyway I remember trying to full hop toward the ledge from onstage, fire a cannon behind me and grab the ledge right after the projectile generated so that I could follow up behind it or force them to jump into Uair range.
 

platomaker

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#18
it was always possible, in smash 4 it was more rewarding to throw those hit boxes out after the cart though. In ultimate, its harder to string those same hits together and less rewarding to do so. You are rewarded more for keeping your distance with projectiles so camping the ledge might be a more valid way to go this time around.
 
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