COMPLETELY VANILLA Mafia | Game Over

[Chaco]

You still haven't explained how my push on you differs from Boom's push on you. What points has Boom made that I have not also made? You also have not explained why you think my push on you here is different from my push on Mala in Midnight.

I literally asked for this as well before unpacking my thoughts on it. Because there is a clear disconnect from Boom and DPs take on it. That’s almost similar.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Not NKing Osie would draw suspicion to his claim. It would seem more like a scum gambit

ok so here's the exchange:

DP who would you NK if you were scum?

Probably you.

Not Osie in any world. That draws suspicion to his claim, and obviously he's protecting me

I don't follow your logic here. You're saying that you wouldn't kill osie as scum because it would draw suspicion to his claim? And you're saying that osie was defending you at the time, so why would you want someone defending you to look scummy?

If anything, for scum!DP killing osie while he was chainsawing defending you, knowing he wasn't your mate and would flip town, is great for your slot. You get to say "wow guys well I'd never kill osie I mean look how much he was on my side!" and attempt to clear yourself on that, and additionally you get to preserve his townreads of you before he gets a chance to change his mind. You'd get to play off townflipped slot's flattering read of you

So unless I'm misunderstanding something, I'm having a really hard time following your logic as to why scum!DP would not kill osie specifically in order to cast doubt on his claim and bring scrutiny to the slot

 

[Chaco]

bro don't even sit here and try to tell me that that would be beyond a Xivii/Chaco scumteam, y'all could absolutely have coordinated aggressive distancing out of the gate knowing you could get your shots in yet keep you both off the chopping block for D1 so you'd have amazing distancing papertrail with no real threat to being called out for not "following through" on your early game attacks

It definitely wouldn’t be beyond our ability at all. But I’m saying there’s to much real head butting that’s pretty obvious. I mean it went into spoiler tags even lol

 

[Chaco]

But scum Xivii and me totally wouldn’t have NKd Osie. Cause we would’ve been coordinating that slot if it was theatre

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

But scum Xivii and me totally wouldn’t have NKd Osie. Cause we would’ve been coordinating that slot if it was theatre

ok this actually kinda tracks ngl, I'm also willing to believe that yall wouldve realized the claim was either a gambit or overstated via ignorance of NAR and wouldn't have been baited by it

 

[Darkpit54]

You still haven't explained how my push on you differs from Boom's push on you. What points has Boom made that I have not also made? You also have not explained why you think my push on you here is different from my push on Mala in Midnight.

Apologies, I haven't really had time or energy. I'll try to later toDay if time allows

I don't follow your logic here. You're saying that you wouldn't kill osie as scum because it would draw suspicion to his claim? And you're saying that osie was defending you at the time, so why would you want someone defending you to look scummy?

Because if someone defending me gets misyeeted and flips town, that makes me look even townier. Also, they can spend an extra Day defending me. I'm not going to yeet that over someone I can't get a misyeet on and whose slot isn't helping me at all. I could probably paint a Chaco NK as being done to make me look scummy just as easily as Osie making me look town, and Chaco's slot helps me absolutely none

If anything, for scum!DP killing osie while he was chainsawing defending you, knowing he wasn't your mate and would flip town, is great for your slot. You get to say "wow guys well I'd never kill osie I mean look how much he was on my side!" and attempt to clear yourself on that, and additionally you get to preserve his townreads of you before he gets a chance to change his mind. You'd get to play off townflipped slot's flattering read of you

Ultimately NK analysis is just wine. I could give motivations that each player would have for shooting Osie, but only two of them would be correct. I think killing Osie was a great move, but if I was scum it would have been terrible. Does anyone disagree with that?

Chac, killing Osie makes it sooo easy to misyeet me, which is what both of you are pushing to do toDay. Who are you claiming you would have killed instead?

 

[Darkpit54]

You don't have to have believed the claim to kill Osie, clearing their slots based on that is naïve at best.

I don't think this discussion is going to spawn any genuinely useful information. Anyone can claim they would've killed someone after the fact and bs some reason to back it up. Especially because scum would have had to consider benefits of killing each different slot. They'll know who their second choice would have been and can easily paint it as if they would have killed them as scum

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Because if someone defending me gets misyeeted and flips town, that makes me look even townier. Also, they can spend an extra Day defending me. I'm not going to yeet that over someone I can't get a misyeet on and whose slot isn't helping me at all. I could probably paint a Chaco NK as being done to make me look scummy just as easily as Osie making me look town, and Chaco's slot helps me absolutely none

so wait are you saying that you wouldn't have NK'd osie because you thought he was a likely yeet the next day and scum!DP would have yielded greater townclout for having a misyeeted town defending him as opposed to having a nightkilled town slot defending him?

I think for the purposes of this discussion we should only use the term "yeet" to refer to lynches and NK/kill to refer to scum kills just to ensure we're not talking past one another

 

[Chaco]

I love a good NK discussion, cause someone always ahead a reason for why they chose that target. And Osie here only makes sense from two perspectives. You or Somi believing his claim, or Boom trying to blueprint Xivii.

Somi is removed from my PoE currently, so we are left with you or Boom.

Also, optimal kill for me would’ve been FF or Xivii. Lesser activity here from FF, but he’s seen my scum play firsthand a few times. I’m one of those who prefers to play scum,and FF has been mates with me a few times. Xivii because I always have so much interaction with him that eventually he’d pick up on nuances.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

My guess is that there’s probably a rolecop in the game.

has UP ever thoroughly explained where this came from?

Btw #62 feels like omega distancing

Xiivi he's talking about you here. Given his early interactions with the DP slot, possible projection?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

**** tagged wrong Xivii

 

[Chaco]

No he never touched on it again, iirc

 

[Xivii]

Ha, funny I was just about to post some quotes from you, Chaco, and Xiivi from 2009. It's like history repeating itself, with me taking ZV's name.

Cool beans, now we got Chaco up in this **** ready to bash some skulls.

Yo Xiivi step up to it. I wanna see some C v. X action up in here.

Xiivi, I know you're a better player than this.

I honestly don't care for Xiivi one bit right now, he's just being anti-town.

chacos post reeks of AtE

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

see back in those 15 player games trimming the fat was pretty much necessary if you didn't want to be stuck in an endgame with 3 slots with 0 connections to anyone else lmao

that playerlist has me nostalgic af tho holy ****:

Player List:
Alive:
3. Riddle (replaced by Macman on D1)
5. mentosman8
7. §teel (being replaced by GOTM, who got replaced Marshy on D1)
8. Kirbyoshi
9. frozenflame751
11. TigerWoods
12. Blue Yoshi
13. ChiboSempai
14. Circus
15. Chaco

Dead:
4. scumfever (Alien Invaders leader)
10. Xiivi (Monster Island Resident Shellshocker)
2. Gheb_01 (Monster Island Resident Stunner))
1. Xonar(Alien Invaders Hitman)
11. TigerWoods (Monster Island Resident Wuss))
6. Cacti (Alien Invaders Janitor)

i'd love to be a late replacement. d3 or later

true BDE in this post lmao

 

[Darkpit54]

Also, optimal kill for me would’ve been FF or Xivii. Lesser activity here from FF, but he’s seen my scum play firsthand a few times. I’m one of those who prefers to play scum,and FF has been mates with me a few times. Xivii because I always have so much interaction with him that eventually he’d pick up on nuances.

If you were scum and they were both town, you wouldn't need to NK them. They'd be pretty hard pocketed, whereas Osie wasn't quite and was defending both of the people you're considering yeeting toDay. You can't pretend like you don't see the motivation you could have for NKing Osie, especially considering how easily you seem to think the NK can be pushed on me or Boom. I'm trying to decide if you're being intentionally avoidant of it or if you're actually tunneling so hard that you can't see it

so wait are you saying that you wouldn't have NK'd osie because you thought he was a likely yeet the next day and scum!DP would have yielded greater townclout for having a misyeeted town defending him as opposed to having a nightkilled town slot defending him?

I think for the purposes of this discussion we should only use the term "yeet" to refer to lynches and NK/kill to refer to scum kills just to ensure we're not talking past one another

Osie literally stated that he would rather be yeeted than have me yeeted. Scum!me would be stupid not to keep him alive after that, especially when others were considering him scummy. So yes, that is essentially what I'm saying. However, this argument doesn't hold much weight, nor does any NK discussion, because scum me could easily have made the kill with this justification in mind. It's all wine, I don't believe anything fruitful will actually come from it

Anyway I'm mad about it but I was wrong. I said that Boom's push seemed to be in good faith because it was consistent while Xivii's felt like he shifted opportunistically, but the progression is weird. Still less scummy I think? But now I'm confused and trust pretty much no one. Ughhgh

So DP actually didn't get it, which feels like a scum perspective. If scum got "real" useless roles then they would be hesitant to assume that all of town got useless roles, but if a townie gets a useless role they will guess that others got useless roles as well. So this perspective feels like it's actually scummy. I'm leaning towards a DP yeet, but I really want to reevaluate tomorrow.

This argument is illogical due to what everyone knows about my role, but enough people have made illogical arguments against me that they can't all be scum, soo

But I will never trust DP fully after the B-game weird logic.

Anyway this is the main argument Boom has been using pretty much this whole time. I thought that seemed like fairly valid reasoning, but when I looked back I realized that Boom was still townreading me after that argument and Xivii's argument against it, so that doesn't really check out

Dark Pit - I can see the Xivii's perspective, but I'm still leaning town for other reasons and think the thought process is plausible.

??? I'm confused about what caused Boom's shift to targeting and scumreading me

BoomFrog what caused your shift in your read of me and the ******* situation? You went from "I could see how you could interpret it as scummy but I don't think that's the case" to "this is scum and could never come from town" without really any change in argument from me or Xivii. Could you explain that?

Anyway, Xivii, you were right and I was wrong

The push WAS scummy. Yours still was too though, and I'll maintain that they are very fundamentally different.

I'm not going to back off of you for now. But good lord I'm confused lmao.

I have to go for now but I'll be back within a couple hours hopefully and will try to look back at Midnight

 

[Xivii]

I agree they are fundamentally different in that mine is logical/consistent and Boom's is not. You're scum reading the wrong person.

 

[Darkpit54]

I agree that yours is more logical but aspects of it confuse me. If you're town my entire read of the game would be entirely incorrect, idk how much I want to pursue that possibility rn

Who do you see as being scum with Boom other than me?

I didn't really want to go back through Midnight but at this point I think I need to to better grasp wtf is happening rn

 

[Xivii]

I could see either UP or somi I suppose.

 

[BoomFrog]

I caught up and an squeezing in a quick reply while I wait for the ferry. You guys really got my blood pressure up with the temporary move off of DP. If we don't yeet DP we are going to end up in D1 part 3. Lots of different players have found them scummy for completely different reasons. UPs absence sucks, but we really can't afford another policy yeet. If UP flips town we get no where. Please don't let Xivii swerve the yeet away from DP at the last minute again.

BoomFrog what was your thought process here? Your assessment doesn't seem to

Woops, cut this off and don't have time to fix the quote. My theory of the game is that scum got actual useless roles, not fake claims. I said as much about why I thought Chaco's role was town indictive as well. However, yeah, I know anything is possible and the roles are basically ignorable. It was more just one more scrap of evidence

I think your PoE makes sense but if its you and chaco railroading us I'm gonna be so ****ing pissed lmao

There's no way even Xivii spends this much effort trying to paint connections to DP unless Xivii is scummates with DP and knows the effort will be worthwhile or Xivii is town and ligit trying to solve. The second is far more likely. But the chance of Xivii being mates with anyone besides DP is basically zilch.

Somi is removed from my PoE currently, so we are left with you or Boom.

I can't believe you were serious about this. Because the format of their role name is similar? I thought we just had a long discussion about how the roles are completely ignorable. Anything based on roles should not be out weighing other factors.

BoomFrog BoomFrog what caused your shift in your read of me and the ******* situation? You went from "I could see how you could interpret it as scummy but I don't think that's the case" to "this is scum and could never come from town" without really any change in argument from me or Xivii. Could you explain that?

Basically I just thought about it more. When I did that whole "imagining scum DP thought process" thing, I carefully reread your posts and I could not get it to fit in a townie mindset.

 

[Xivii]

Woops, cut this off and don't have time to fix the quote. My theory of the game is that scum got actual useless roles, not fake claims. I said as much about why I thought Chaco's role was town indictive as well. However, yeah, I know anything is possible and the roles are basically ignorable. It was more just one more scrap of evidence

But we have a mass claim and know all the roles. So which roles are the ones you're prescribing to scum?

 

[BoomFrog]

But we have a mass claim and know all the roles. So which roles are the ones you're prescribing to scum?

Any of the others. But, again, it's only slight evidence. I'm mostly ignoring roles, which you know since Somi is my #2 suspect.

 

[BoomFrog]

If DP and Xivii have a last minute reconciliation after literally days of "Xivii is scum and I'm going to die on this hill" vs "DP is for sure scum" then this needs to set off alarm bells with all the rest of you. It's very possible Xivii got locked into distancing gone wrong D1 and is trying to see if he can find another opportunity to not yeet his partner toDay. The UP vote was testing the waters so he can pull another fire drill at EoD.

Don't let him do it. Chaco #HBC | FrozeηFlame .

UtopianPoyzin , if Xivii is scum his partner is DP. Vote DP toDay and get Xivii toMorrow.

 

[BoomFrog]

somitomi Ditto, what I said to UP. If Xivii is scum his partner is DP. Vote DP first.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Votecount 2-8

[3] Xivii : UtopianPoyzin, Darkpit54, somitomi
[3] Darkpit54:, Chaco, BoomFrog, Xivii
[1] UtopianPoyzin: #HBC FrozeηFlame

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to eliminate.

Day 2 Deadline is at 11 PM UTC on Monday August 17th; less than 3 hours remain.

 

[Chaco]

I can't believe you were serious about this. Because the format of their role name is similar? I thought we just had a long discussion about how the roles are completely ignorable. Anything based on roles should not be out weighing other factors.

Right it’s basis is the fact that Somi otherwise is massively null for the most part. There’s really not much content to go off of there, and the stuff he has posted hasn’t been concrete reads by any means. So I took him off my PoE for people who had more content to sift through and actual basis.
but yes formatting so close makes me think he’s got more likelihood to be town due to my own role. Lol.

 

[Darkpit54]

If Xivii is scum his partner is DP. Vote DP first.

This is bs and there's no way you don't know it. Isn't Xivii's motto "no mate left behind"? I wouldn't be the yeet target without him pushing me so hard. There are so many potential scummates for both of us but you cannot genuinely tell me you think we're scum together.

Anyway, we're both at L-1 with Frozen as the deciding vote. I'm assuming I know where this will go based on his prior stances. Xivii will get a lot of suspicion after I flip town, as he should. I'm trying to see how I feel about Boom though. There's no way they're both town

 

[Chaco]

Lol that game Xivii . I shouldn’t have been that frustrated, but you would get hardbodied D1 so easily back in the day. I was also addicted to opiates, so my play was bad. Hahahah. I didn’t even remember that game tbh.

 

[Chaco]

BoomFrog i don’t see Xivii/DP pairing here, they are both two big game divided wagons. If that was the case the game solve would be whack.

 

[Chaco]

If you were scum and they were both town, you wouldn't need to NK them. They'd be pretty hard pocketed, whereas Osie wasn't quite and was defending both of the people you're considering yeeting toDay. You can't pretend like you don't see the motivation you could have for NKing Osie, especially considering how easily you seem to think the NK can be pushed on me or Boom. I'm trying to decide if you're being intentionally avoidant of it or if you're actually tunneling so hard that you can't see it


Osie literally stated that he would rather be yeeted than have me yeeted. Scum!me would be stupid not to keep him alive after that, especially when others were considering him scummy. So yes, that is essentially what I'm saying. However, this argument doesn't hold much weight, nor does any NK discussion, because scum me could easily have made the kill with this justification in mind. It's all wine, I don't believe anything fruitful will actually come from it

Anyway I'm mad about it but I was wrong. I said that Boom's push seemed to be in good faith because it was consistent while Xivii's felt like he shifted opportunistically, but the progression is weird. Still less scummy I think? But now I'm confused and trust pretty much no one. Ughhgh


This argument is illogical due to what everyone knows about my role, but enough people have made illogical arguments against me that they can't all be scum, soo


Anyway this is the main argument Boom has been using pretty much this whole time. I thought that seemed like fairly valid reasoning, but when I looked back I realized that Boom was still townreading me after that argument and Xivii's argument against it, so that doesn't really check out


??? I'm confused about what caused Boom's shift to targeting and scumreading me

BoomFrog what caused your shift in your read of me and the ******* situation? You went from "I could see how you could interpret it as scummy but I don't think that's the case" to "this is scum and could never come from town" without really any change in argument from me or Xivii. Could you explain that?

Anyway, Xivii, you were right and I was wrong

The push WAS scummy. Yours still was too though, and I'll maintain that they are very fundamentally different.

I'm not going to back off of you for now. But good lord I'm confused lmao.

I have to go for now but I'll be back within a couple hours hopefully and will try to look back at Midnight

Nah. You always play the long game as scum. Just because you’re buddies D1 doesn’t mean by D3 that hasn’t dissolved and you’re pitted against players who know how to read you better. So with that being said, you take out powerhouses N1 if no PR is apparent. That’s why FF used to always be killed N1. Lol.

 

[Chaco]

I just realized I will not be available from 5:45-7pm EST due to an appointment with my wife. Apologies in advance. But hopefully we can get everything ironed out before then.

 

[Chaco]

Yknow do note though that two times Boom has been “leader” on DP push, and it’s truly been Xivii both times. Not sure what to make of that. Be interested to see the stance post DP flip...

 

[Darkpit54]

As far as I'm concerned it's up to Frozen unless... you feel like moving Chac?

Or UP or Somi come back and move. But that would be fake and I would be sad

Legitimately, if I somehow both survive and am wrong about Xivii, then I'll completely reevaluate the game. But I really don't see that happening. And I'd probably get yeeted anyway. If Xivii is town this game is probably already lost. Sincerely hoping that's not the case

 

[Darkpit54]

This wagon analysis is about to be interesting at least. There'll finally be something concrete to look at

 

[Darkpit54]

Yknow do note though that two times Boom has been “leader” on DP push, and it’s truly been Xivii both times. Not sure what to make of that. Be interested to see the stance post DP flip...

If I was scum, it would seem indicative of a bus. However, since I'll flip town, I'm unsure what to make of it. I'd assume scum would be reluctant to claim leadership on something they know is a misyeet

 

[Chaco]

We just can’t be trying to reprioritize lynches on day of deadline, it’s like our player base isn’t active until then, and even then partly so.

 

[Chaco]

If I was scum, it would seem indicative of a bus. However, since I'll flip town, I'm unsure what to make of it. I'd assume scum would be reluctant to claim leadership on something they know is a misyeet

No, no, no. Paper trail is that he’s been supportive and not pushing, outward speech is that he’s the pusher. He could go back and quote Xivii’s ringleader of it and show where he was supporting merely.

 

[Chaco]

#HBC | FrozeηFlame would you be down to go Boom?

I have a creeping suspicion here.

 

[Darkpit54]

No, no, no. Paper trail is that he’s been supportive and not pushing, outward speech is that he’s the pusher. He could go back and quote Xivii’s ringleader of it and show where he was supporting merely.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

 

[Chaco]

Can you explain what you mean by this?

He hasn’t been the driving force on you, more so a continuous push. He wouldn’t be the one accredited for driving your ML, if you are town. That would fall on Xivii, except now when he says don’t let Xivii flip flop again.
It looks better on Boom than Xivii pretty much.

 

[Darkpit54]

Okay, that makes sense. However, it feels like scum would rather just let themselves be labeled as following a misyeet rather than insisting that they're leading it, right? Or am I overthinking this?