COMPLETELY VANILLA Mafia | Game Over

[UtopianPoyzin]

It's evident that he is simply backtracking.

Good joke

Spoiler

It would be evident if I was actually backtracking

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

If you’re wondering what the “bluff” was, it was that everybody was on the same page about a mass claim except for them. I wanted to see whether Somi genuinely had town information or if they were just faking it to get by. If they were scum, they wouldn’t have known the format of the town role PMs, which is what I was trying to deduce from Somi. However, that particular mechanism can no longer be used after it was outed and nobody played along with it, but I can’t fault anybody in particular. :/

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Innocent Child. This may partially be because I just finished a game where a Fake Innocent Child was a big topic, so my faith in them might be skewed. An Innocent Child could be *******, whereas a Noisy Child really can't. Ik that I'm town, so it wouldn't be in this situation but you guys don't, so there's the potential.

I don't think it's a bad thing to try to look at things from other perspectives and I'll die on that hill lol

Maybe I'm just jaded toward Innocent Children but tldr, that role has the potential to be ******* while mine cannot, from the perspective of every other townie, as they do not know my alignment. This is the point I was trying to make, and I think it may have gotten lost in translation somewhere. Oh well ig

Can you elaborate on the argument against Somi?

This is it ^

 

[Chaco]

#HBC | FrozeηFlame I answered it previously. Basically because he had me and DP in red, and I we were outed roles, and he was scum leaning Mercuri and had them in yellow. It wasn’t til later that he posted suspect in red. His red wasn’t clear til after, cause he had no reason to be scumreading me which is why I assumed it was backwards.

 

[Chaco]

He also didnt come forward with his point about DP until after that.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Chaco, you might have answered this earlier, but what do you think about Xivii v DP?

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Actually I see that you did talk about it at the end of page 3 but I want to see if you have anything different to say now that it’s gone on longer

 

[Xivii]

Chaco and UtopianPoyzin are you for or against mass claiming?

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Chaco and UtopianPoyzin are you for or against mass claiming?

I’ve answered that question already

 

[Chaco]

Chaco and UtopianPoyzin are you for or against mass claiming?

As of right now, against. To many unknown variables here and truthfully due to the nature of the game that I see it’s to easy to fake claim and skate with it.

UtopianPoyzin I don’t know whether DP is just taking a bow to Xivii due to last game, and kind’ve bending to his vet status, or he’s agreeing for the sake of ending the argument in a lot of points. I would expect TvT to be more “stand your ground” and not give in easily and concede to Xivii’s points. Although as I said I think he may just be subjecting himself to a vet.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Figured I’d put down my two cents on DP.

Fact: Darkpit54 is the Noisy Child

Fact: The Noisy Child is either town, or scum.

Case 1 (NC is town): It’s a watered down IC.
Case 2 (NC is scum): This would suck.

Opinion: Case 1 matches what others have said about the nature of the roles, where they are watered down versions of normal roles. Technically Case 2 could be possible, but that as far more convoluted and should be considered later in the game. For now, DP has acted just fine, and I both get and don’t get what Xivii is saying about scum!DP.

 

[Xivii]

As of right now, against. To many unknown variables here and truthfully due to the nature of the game that I see it’s to easy to fake claim and skate with it.

I think this is precisely why we should do so now. I'd rather not have a PR claim late game and have people roll with it.

 

[Chaco]

I think this is precisely why we should do so now. I'd rather not have a PR claim late game and have people roll with it.

Risk versus reward here is low, I think. If majority agrees though, I’ll concede.

If we do end up doing claims, I think we should have the scummiest people claim first.

 

[Chaco]

I think we should make a list from top priority to lowest for claim, and everyone has to submit their list so we go by accumulated points for who goes in what slot. That we have beginning of day read lists to reflect off of etc

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

If we do end up doing claims, I think we should have the scummiest people claim first.

Who’s that?

 

[Chaco]

Look at my above

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Alright, I’m going to do another logic chart.

Opinion: There is a mafia rolecop

To proceed with the argument, we will assume there is.

Case 1: The rolecop does not want to massclaim.
Case 2: The rolecop wants to massclaim.

The argument for case 1 is that the rolecop wants to potentially appear townie by opposing a massclaim, knowing that they can get that information for themselves ahead of the rest of the town through checking people’s roles nightly.

The argument for case 2 is that knowing roles is beneficial for scum, and a massclaim would make their job a lot easier, and can have more educated checks to confirm information nightly.

With this in mind, we cannot undo a massclaim, so I would also like to hear from everyone. I also think we should abstain from giving away modifiers; only the actual role.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Look at my above

I want you to tell me who you think is the scummiest.

 

[somitomi]

Thanks for ruining the bluff and giving Somitomi’s point substance, you’re just making it easier for scum to wiggle around

Well, Chaco still makes one out of eight, so that "only you" was definitely a stretch. But even if I was the only one, throwing shade on me for askig to clarify your proposal and avoiding my questions is a bit susp if I'm honest.

I agree with the points on UP somewhat, and am similarly hesitant to follow a "town leader" that is entirely unconfirmed.

I have the same vibes, clouded a bit by OMGUS.

What I do propose, however, is that we mass claim. I think doing so would be beneficial in this setup because of all the red herrings. It would be good to know what we are actually dealing with and it would make it harder for scum to pseudo clear themselves in the larger scheme of things. For example, you are clearing Chaco and DP for their roles, but I suspect once we have a bigger picture of the game, we will see that we cannot clear anyone from their roles. Additionally, considering that the title of the game is completely vanilla, I doubt any of us are actual power roles. Furthermore, I think it would be a good idea for us to get this sorted so that we can move on with scumhunting.

I guess my second question to UP goes out to you as well. How do we stop scum from skating by on falseclaims long enough to endgame town? Especially if we cannot clear anyone from their roles as you say?

Chaco/DP/Xivii/FF are “off the table”, just yeet in Mercuri/Somitomi and we can all vibe together

Why did Xivii and FF get into the protected club?

I agree we should mass claim today. But I don't want to hear anyone else debate the merits of that besides somitomi somitomi , mərcurı mərcurı and 3DSNinja 3DSNinja

In the few games I've played such proposals were instantly nerfed for being risky because mafia can survive on fake claims long enough to get all the power roles. Apparently this game doesn't have any actual power roles, but I'm a little hesitant to bet the game on this (which is why I wanted UP to clarify what bit of information we should claim and how this will be more beneficial to town than to scum) but I'm not going to die on this hill if the majority agrees to do it.

 

[BoomFrog]

I think we should make a list from top priority to lowest for claim, and everyone has to submit their list so we go by accumulated points for who goes in what slot. That we have beginning of day read lists to reflect off of etc

I think we should choose one towny person to make the list unilaterally. But I don't think we should decide who that is yet. You UP and Xivii discussing "the only thing with taking about" isn't helping us sort Mel, Somi and Ninja.

Especially UtopianPoyzin I appreciate the effort, but try not to dominate the conversation. Large volumes of posts are going to make it harder for the low volume people to interact.

 

[BoomFrog]

Alright, I’m going to do another logic chart.

Opinion: There is a mafia rolecop

To proceed with the argument, we will assume there is.

Case 1: The rolecop does not want to massclaim.
Case 2: The rolecop wants to massclaim.

The argument for case 1 is that the rolecop wants to potentially appear townie by opposing a massclaim, knowing that they can get that information for themselves ahead of the rest of the town through checking people’s roles nightly.

The argument for case 2 is that knowing roles is beneficial for scum, and a massclaim would make their job a lot easier, and can have more educated checks to confirm information nightly.

With this in mind, we cannot undo a massclaim, so I would also like to hear from everyone. I also think we should abstain from giving away modifiers; only the actual role.

Like seriously, how's is this helping? You are basically giving advice to scum here by analysing they're strategy. Make them commit, then come back to analyze it after.

 

[Chaco]

I’m cool with doing the widest accepted town person, Boom.

UtopianPoyzin Somi for me rn, still.

 

[BoomFrog]

#HBC | FrozeηFlame I'll unpack it later. After Mel and Ninja say something significant. I want to leave unanalyzed content for them to actually weigh in on.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Why did Xivii and FF get into the protected club?

Who knows? They townslipped by agreeing with the premise of claiming to know which roles are in the game, but tbh I might have given them too much credit for it

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Like seriously, how's is this helping? You are basically giving advice to scum here by analysing they're strategy. Make them commit, then come back to analyze it after.

Maybe it was too early. It’s not like I said anything gamebreaking, a bunch of people already gave their opinion on it and all we have to do is pick the option that scum doesn’t want.

 

[Xivii]

It's just that it was less than a page before your comment, and not knowing comes off as not caring who is saying what. If you don't care who says what, then how will you read people(?) Also what do you mean by a different Xivii?

@Chaco could I have you answers to these?

It’s townie, not far fetched.

Could you explain what you found townie about Chaco up to that point?

Wouldn’t you like to know

What was the reason you were town leaning me up to this point?

What I was referring to by “flavor claiming” was effectively a massclaim minus the role modifiers. I thought it’d be nice to know what roles we were working with, but not the modifiers. Heck, Kary might’ve made the investigative roles duds.

I'm not sure why you keep saying might. We should be default assuming that none of the roles actually mean anything. This is completely vanilla. All of the roles are duds.

Nothing I suppose. If it’s not a normal role, then it’s ******* iirc. Could be faulty logic, it’s just not something that I care to consider rn.

Just a heads up, it is faulty logic. Your understanding of the mafia community is a bit skewed. Normal rules specifically apply to mafiascum games.

Keep it simple, stupid.

I agree, it's just that you have a faulty understanding of how the roles work and the mafia community at large. For example, looking in the quote above, you are stating "if it's not a normal role," but that doesn't mean anything. All of the roles in this game were completely made up by Kary.

Figured I’d put down my two cents on DP.Fact: Darkpit54 is the Noisy Child

Fact: The Noisy Child is either town, or scum.

Case 1 (NC is town): It’s a watered down IC.
Case 2 (NC is scum): This would suck.

Opinion: Case 1 matches what others have said about the nature of the roles, where they are watered down versions of normal roles. Technically Case 2 could be possible, but that as far more convoluted and should be considered later in the game. For now, DP has acted just fine, and I both get and don’t get what Xivii is saying about scum!DP.

The mental gymnastics that you were doing here is that you are equating "watered down" to "dressed up." The roles aren't watered down. That would imply they have some functionality. They are dressed up to look like they have functionality but are simply vanilla roles. So Dark Pit's role is not a "watered down IC." All his role is, is literally just that the mod announces what his role is. It has no actual utility.

UtopianPoyzin why did you drop your theory that I was chainsaw defending a scumbuddy?
UtopianPoyzin you tried this strategy in Token mafia and it got you yeeted D1, why are you doing it again? The masterplan stuff I mean.

I'm vibing with Up here.

What are you vibing with? And do you think you would have this perspective had you not played with UP before?

Unyeetable -
Chaco
FrozenFlame

What are the reasons? Is it meta/tone based?

Dark Pit - I can see the Xivii's perspective, but I'm still leaning town for other reasons

What are the other reasons?

Somitomi - Doesn't get it

Doesn't get what?

unpack this please

I would also like this.

though I think Xivii has clearly demonstrated that darkpit "doesnt get it" either

In what way did I demonstrate this?

I guess my second question to UP goes out to you as well. How do we stop scum from skating by on falseclaims long enough to endgame town? Especially if we cannot clear anyone from their roles as you say?

If we claim today, we will be able to verify that people's night actions don't actually do anything over the long run, but if we wait, someone can swing out a cop etc. near end game and we would have no idea whether the results could be trusted. It's better that we get it all out now so we have time to adjust our expectations.

 

[Chaco]

Xivii I was agreeing with the point made so there wasn’t a direct need for me to go back and attribute the post to one person. I got names wrong multiple times last game due to this, so I just put as someone said because there was no direct need to say who said it I don’t think because I was agreeing with th le stance spoken. Also I consistently reread pages because I stay mostly interacting with new activity so it does no good for my sake to go back and look because I’m just gonna go back and look again. If it s needed for others sake I would understand more, but as a whole it doesn’t effect me. Because if it’s something of consequence I multiquote and the like to make it easier for others to follow my thoughts.

And what I mean by a new Xivii is your style isn’t appearing the same as it did in UPs game currently, as well as the posting “embellishments” being new

 

[BoomFrog]

Xivii I'll answer after I've gotten my answers from 3ds and Mel. Any answer I give would be "within my scum range" anyway, so it's not really helping you to answer.

 

[Darkpit54]

With this in mind, we cannot undo a massclaim, so I would also like to hear from everyone. I also think we should abstain from giving away modifiers; only the actual role.

I want to clarify something, cuz I'm a little confused and I'm probably not the only one. By "actual role", do you mean the role our role is dressed up to look like? Meaning I would claim Innocent Child, and Chaco would claim Miller, if we hadn't already fullclaimed?

Can you explain how this would benefit us and not just scum? Based on the roles we have so far I'm inclined to agree with Xiv that we're all just glorified VTs, but if we have even weak PRs, I'm not sure the benefit of outing them d1 would be worth it

 

[BoomFrog]

New avatar to help xivii read me this game.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

I'm not sure the benefit of outing them d1 would be worth it

I DONT WANT TO OUT PRS

If everybody claims a PR, then nobody knows which is real

 

[BoomFrog]

I DONT WANT TO OUT PRS

If everybody claims a PR, then nobody knows which is real

Ugh. Breaking my own request here but I can't let this lay...

This plan makes no sense. If you think there is any chance that we have any roles that actually do something then you shouldn't want us to claim. Because the "something like a cop" will still get shot first.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Because the "something like a cop" will still get shot first.

That’s what I said, right?

 

[mərcurı]

I'm vibing with Up here.

Unyeetable -
Chaco
FrozenFlame
UP

Dark Pit - I can see the Xivii's perspective, but I'm still leaning town for other reasons and think the thought process is plausible.
Xivii - very wrong on a lot of points. Probably still town.

Somitomi - Doesn't get it
mərcurı - Seems to be avoiding the whole topic.

I agree we should mass claim today. But I don't want to hear anyone else debate the merits of that besides somitomi , mərcurı and 3DSNinja

3DSNinja play post more. About anything. You don't need to fully catch up, just raw post your thoughts and reactions as you think them.

thinking about this now

 

[Chaco]

3DSNinja Yo, what’s your thoughts in the game thus far? Any particular strong town reads or scum reads on anyone? Any content you can bring forth for us today?

 

[giraffelasergun]

Vote Count 1-4

[2] somitomi: Chaco, UtopianPoyzin
[2] Mercuri: FrozenFlame, Boomfrog
[1] Darkpit54: Xivii

[4] Not Voting: 3DSNinja, mercuri, Darkpit54, somitomi

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate.

Day 1 Deadline is: 11 PM UTC on Saturday August 8th

Alert Adorable, Absentminded Alligator About Accidental Additions Above.

 

[BoomFrog]

thinking about this now

Why not just express your first thoughts? Town don't need to be cagey right?

 

[BoomFrog]

Maybe I misunderstood your point.

If everybody claims a PR, then nobody knows which is real

What are you advocating for here?

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Maybe I misunderstood your point.

What are you advocating for here?

Nothing until more people talk

 

[Xivii]

First thought was "that's pretty blatant rolefishing if I ever saw one". On second thought I don't quite understand what you propose we all claim and how you're going to gain information from it without outing any "useful" PRs we might have?

I agree with this, but he went back on it before anyone actually answered so... eh? I won't really make much of it yet lol

I'm looking through this again and there are actually two separate things about it that are indicative of scum:

First, as I mentioned, the self-nullifying nature of the statement is not one that is likely to come from a town position. I made note of this same tell from Mala in Midnight Ops. Basically it's a filler format that scum use to portray a sense of solving. It's displayed in different ways, but it's basically statements that are formed as "I thought this, but...," "I agree with this, but...," meant to show a sense of progression. It's not the way that townie players tend to actually communicate their views though. Townies tend to respond in a straightforward manner without the conjunction. So for example, town!darkpit may have said something like "he went back on it before anyone actually answered though so... eh?"

Darkpit, you said that you made statements like this in the previous game but I don't think you did. Yes, you made statements challenging arguments and reads, but they were in the form such as that of the yellow line, not as conjunctive hedging.

Second, it's the fact that Darkpit considered the rolefishing (pre-retraction) to be scum indicative in the first place. The fact that Darkpit thinks it's not scum indicative because UP went back on it implies that he thinks it would be scum indicative if he didn't. I don't this sort of read comes from someone as intent-minded as Darkpit. What's the scum motivation behind blatantly rolefishing? Further, if doing so was genuinely scum indicative, would the fact that no one answered really nullify that scumminess? He is implying that the action isn't scummy because it didn't result in a negative outcome. This isn't reasonable to think. An assassin that fails to kill his target is still an assassin.

Ultimately, it looks like Darkpit was being opportunistic here, playing off of somi's suspicion while distancing himself from the blood. It's similar to how in Midnight, Frozen played off of Chaco's suspicion of me while keeping his hands clean from the actual push.


_________

I think if this was *******, my role would probably be Innocent Child with me being scum. Because neither of those are true, I'm going to assume this is not a ******* game for now, and agree with Chaco that the roles are probably just weak lol

I feel like I probably shouldn't be treated as an Innocent Child, as I'm technically not one. Last game I was so universally townread that hopefully it won't really matter anyway lol.

I think you're misunderstanding me. My argument, while definitely still possibly wrong, is based on the fact that I'm NOT an IC. If I was an IC, there would be the potential of me being scum, leading to this game being b because the mod would have directly lied to us. Because Kary did not say my alignment, I'm inclined to believe it is not *******, as there's no room for a lie within that.

Looking at this again as well, Darkpit's reasoning still does not hold up. Again Chaco made a statement about the game potentially being a b-game because his role was miller despite the game claiming to be vanilla. Darkpit showed that his own role was not bast and so concluded that the game was not bast. This doesn't make sense though as it doesn't at all refute Chaco's point about Chaco's role.

Look again at the first like "I think if this game was bast, my role would probably be..." This assumption is not justified. He's completely pulling it out of thin air. What reason would there be for that in order for the game to be bast, every role would have to be bast?

So what was the purpose behind making the post? We know it wasn't actually to conclude that the game wasn't a b-game because it didn't actually address Chaco's point. This leads me to suspect that the entire purpose of this post was to establish in our mind that he was an innocent child. He went into how we shouldn't conclude he is an IC, but it's not like we were? It's like if you were at a bar and a girl randomly came up to you and was like "I know I don't have corona because I was just tested, but I don't think we should make out with all this corona stuff going on hahaha."