Beat!
Smash Master
*DISCLAIMER*
These guides are for the most part fairly basic and I don't really go into specific/advanced aspects that much. They're mainly aimed at players who struggle with a matchup and need a good starting point. If you already feel that you have a good grasp of a certain matchup and are looking to take it to the next level, then there may not be all that much to take away from these guides. If you think you can learn from them anyway then feel free to read them, though!
*END OF DISCLAIMER*
So, since my matchup write-ups have been getting very positive responses so far, and since Mahie and MookieRah requested it, I've decided to compile them into one thread. If a mod sees this and finds the content valuable, a sticky would be highly appreciated.
Sheik:
Peach:
Falcon:
Optimal chaingrab tree vs Fox on FD:
Going to be updating this thread as more guides are written by myself and/or others, so if you don't find the matchup you're looking for now, check back again after a little while. I'll make a post in this thread every time I update it.
For a compilation of Marth information that isn't limited to matchup advice, check out this document by MookieRah: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Daf_Dqod1HoMj7L26ITeUM-xKUKhfxh2vJLWOl2N0C8/edit
These guides are for the most part fairly basic and I don't really go into specific/advanced aspects that much. They're mainly aimed at players who struggle with a matchup and need a good starting point. If you already feel that you have a good grasp of a certain matchup and are looking to take it to the next level, then there may not be all that much to take away from these guides. If you think you can learn from them anyway then feel free to read them, though!
*END OF DISCLAIMER*
So, since my matchup write-ups have been getting very positive responses so far, and since Mahie and MookieRah requested it, I've decided to compile them into one thread. If a mod sees this and finds the content valuable, a sticky would be highly appreciated.
Sheik:
Stay grounded. If there's any matchup that really exemplifies the "don't jump against grounded opponents" philosophy, it's Marth vs Sheik. Nair in particular is a move that you'll be punished for more often than not. Fair is a little more viable, but I'd still recommend being careful about using it. Your main tools in the neutral game should be a mix of dashdancing, walking, wavedashing, dtilting, and grabbing. Out of those, grabbing->upthrow is generally the main goal. The others are means to that end more than anything else:
Sheik will obviously do everything in her power to get down, so be aware of all the options she has at any given point. If you're too eager, a well-timed air dodge or DJ from her side can get her back on the ground and reset the position to neutral.
Speaking of her DJ, if you can bait it out and send her back up again before she lands, she should pretty much not be able to come down again at all for the rest of the stock (at least not without taking a ****-ton of damage first) as long as you time your juggling moves well. At some point you may want to start sending her off stage, but that largely depends on the situation, so it's hard to specific about it. As a rule of thumb, if a strong move (like a nair) will send her far enough to force her to use ub-B, go for it.
Ken combos and tipper fsmash finishers are also available, but they're far more DI/situation dependent than juggling, so view them as opportunities that you'll capitalize on when they arise, rather than something you need to try to force out of every combo. Marth's punishment game is a bit different from the other top characters in that regard.
Getting grabbed by Sheik blows, particularly in NTSC. There are a bunch of ways to reduce the damage dealt to you, such as mixing up your DI, DIing to a platform and tech/techroll unpredictably and so forth, but at the end of the day, the best advice is to avoid getting grabbed in the first place. As a rule of thumb, if you have several DI options and the choice is between 1. taking a lot of immediate damage but increasing your chances of resetting the position to neutral, and 2. reducing the amount of combo damage taken but remaining in a ****ty position, you generally want to do the former.
- Dtilt makes it harder for Sheik to stay grounded and can lead to a grab sometimes.
- Wavedashing, walking and dashdancing are all used for regular spacing purposes.
- Dashdancing covers much more space than the other two, but it makes you unable to dtilt (unless you can pivot dtilt, which is extremely difficult to do consistently), which makes it more difficult to challenge Sheik.
- Walking is slower, but lets you do any move you want at any time, so it's a lot more versatile than dashdancing.
- Wavedashing lets you cover space faster than walking does, and leaves you with more options than dashdancing does, so it's a bit of a multi-purpose move. WD down -> dtilt is great because you can do it out of a dashdance and it's almost as fast as a pivot dtilt. WD back -> grab is a cookie cutter punish against predictable/poorly timed approaches (generally dash attack in Sheik's case).
Sheik will obviously do everything in her power to get down, so be aware of all the options she has at any given point. If you're too eager, a well-timed air dodge or DJ from her side can get her back on the ground and reset the position to neutral.
Speaking of her DJ, if you can bait it out and send her back up again before she lands, she should pretty much not be able to come down again at all for the rest of the stock (at least not without taking a ****-ton of damage first) as long as you time your juggling moves well. At some point you may want to start sending her off stage, but that largely depends on the situation, so it's hard to specific about it. As a rule of thumb, if a strong move (like a nair) will send her far enough to force her to use ub-B, go for it.
Ken combos and tipper fsmash finishers are also available, but they're far more DI/situation dependent than juggling, so view them as opportunities that you'll capitalize on when they arise, rather than something you need to try to force out of every combo. Marth's punishment game is a bit different from the other top characters in that regard.
Getting grabbed by Sheik blows, particularly in NTSC. There are a bunch of ways to reduce the damage dealt to you, such as mixing up your DI, DIing to a platform and tech/techroll unpredictably and so forth, but at the end of the day, the best advice is to avoid getting grabbed in the first place. As a rule of thumb, if you have several DI options and the choice is between 1. taking a lot of immediate damage but increasing your chances of resetting the position to neutral, and 2. reducing the amount of combo damage taken but remaining in a ****ty position, you generally want to do the former.
Peach:
Peach will attempt to pull turnips basically any time it's safe, and you don't want to let her do that. As long as she's grounded, try to stay within an area where you're close enough to be able to punish turnip pulls, but aren't directly threatened by her moves. Her go-to move for dealing with this spacing is dash attack. Always be prepared for it. It's fast, has deceptively long range and is a great combo starter. It will also sneak under your aerials more often than not so you don't want to be jumping all that much (the occasional fair has its merits, but for the most part just stay grounded). Getting her into the air is the main goal, and grab is the most sure-fire way of accomplishing that, but dtilts are also good for making her feel uncomfortable and getting her to float instead.
Once you've gotten her into the air (whether it's by upthrowing her or her going up there herself) you can be a lot more liberal with aerials. Fair's good against her float when she's diagonally above you because around there is where the hitbox starts and the move just plain outranges her. Don't be reckless though. It's easy to fall for her fade-back bait-> fair if you don't pay attention (or if you play against Armada... >_>).
Uair's amazing when she's above you. When I say amazing, I mean she's not getting down if you're patient and observant and time them well. If she tries air dodging past the uair, generally what you want to do is either uptilt or grab->upthrow depending on the situation, and then just continue juggling.
Nair is pretty cool if you can connect it when she's airborne at low percents, because it usually sets up a solid combo (follow-up moves include another nair!!!). In most situations I prefer fair or uair, though.
I find fthrow and dthrow to be strictly inferior to uthrow in this matchup, but they're not completely useless. If you want to do the fthrow -> cover tech in place with nair and tech chase the other rolls à la M2K, then go ahead. It's not awful. Heck, against bad DI, they can lead to early tipper kills. I heavily prefer uthrow, though. Going for a DI-dependent 50/50 situation just doesn't seem worth it to me when you could be putting yourself in the most positionally advantageous position this matchup has to offer.
On average, she'll live longer, percentage-wise. You'll simply have to accept that. It's just how the match will play out. Don't try to overcompensate for it by trying to force early kills with fsmash/dair. There will ocasionally be opportunities for those, but don't shape your entire neutral/punish game around that. Instead, focus on juggling. It may feel a bit frustrating to just hit her back up over and over again without killing her, but realize that it's just as (if not more) frustrating to be on the receiving end of a juggle.
Tipper uptilt kills reasonably early so don't overlook it.
As for edgeguarding, be patient. Always cover the low options (mainly with dtilt), because it's generally easier for Peach to get back that way. Going high should for the most part just result in you hitting her back off again.
If she's floating a bit away from the stage, don't be afraid of being a bit pseudo-aggressive with jumps. It forces her to stay back (unless she wants to take an aerial in the face), prevents her from cutting corners and generally makes her more uncomfortable.
Once you've gotten her into the air (whether it's by upthrowing her or her going up there herself) you can be a lot more liberal with aerials. Fair's good against her float when she's diagonally above you because around there is where the hitbox starts and the move just plain outranges her. Don't be reckless though. It's easy to fall for her fade-back bait-> fair if you don't pay attention (or if you play against Armada... >_>).
Uair's amazing when she's above you. When I say amazing, I mean she's not getting down if you're patient and observant and time them well. If she tries air dodging past the uair, generally what you want to do is either uptilt or grab->upthrow depending on the situation, and then just continue juggling.
Nair is pretty cool if you can connect it when she's airborne at low percents, because it usually sets up a solid combo (follow-up moves include another nair!!!). In most situations I prefer fair or uair, though.
I find fthrow and dthrow to be strictly inferior to uthrow in this matchup, but they're not completely useless. If you want to do the fthrow -> cover tech in place with nair and tech chase the other rolls à la M2K, then go ahead. It's not awful. Heck, against bad DI, they can lead to early tipper kills. I heavily prefer uthrow, though. Going for a DI-dependent 50/50 situation just doesn't seem worth it to me when you could be putting yourself in the most positionally advantageous position this matchup has to offer.
On average, she'll live longer, percentage-wise. You'll simply have to accept that. It's just how the match will play out. Don't try to overcompensate for it by trying to force early kills with fsmash/dair. There will ocasionally be opportunities for those, but don't shape your entire neutral/punish game around that. Instead, focus on juggling. It may feel a bit frustrating to just hit her back up over and over again without killing her, but realize that it's just as (if not more) frustrating to be on the receiving end of a juggle.
Tipper uptilt kills reasonably early so don't overlook it.
As for edgeguarding, be patient. Always cover the low options (mainly with dtilt), because it's generally easier for Peach to get back that way. Going high should for the most part just result in you hitting her back off again.
If she's floating a bit away from the stage, don't be afraid of being a bit pseudo-aggressive with jumps. It forces her to stay back (unless she wants to take an aerial in the face), prevents her from cutting corners and generally makes her more uncomfortable.
Falcon:
As with most matchups, staying grounded is good. However, Falcon's a heavily aerial-based character, so there's a lot more room than usual for using aerials yourself. Nair and Fair are both good for interrupting his movement and stuffing approaches. You want to be a bit careful if he stays grounded, though, because Falcon's side-B is similar to Peach's dash attack in that it's pretty good at sneaking under aerials, and it sets up combos (and I probably don't have to tell you that Falcon's combo game on Marth is pretty devastating).
Dashdancing is very valuable for both characters in this matchup. Falcon benefits a ton from having lots of room to work with but kinda sucks when he's cornered, and a lot of Falcons like to wait for you to swing (or generally commit to something) and punish you, so you want to gradually close in on him so he either has to give up stage presence or attack. Dtilt is decent in this matchup, but it's not as super annoying and safe as it is in many other matchups, since Falcon is fast and will be jumping a lot.
It's hard to get stuff out of uthrow at very low percents (if it doesn't put him on a platform) since Falcon's so heavy, and fthrow doesn't knock him over so I like dthrow. The techchase is pretty easy, and a cornered Falcon is easy to deal with in general. At mid percents I go for uthrow all the way, though (unless one of the others sets up an easy edgeguard).
Once you've gotten a combo started it's generally pretty easy to keep it going. It's easy to chain several uairs, and there's generally lots of room for you to decide exactly when you want to start carrying him off stage.
Uthrow -> tipper connects at around 50-60-ish and is a pretty good option. Going for a fair/uair combo starter instead will usually yield similar results so you once again have a decent amount of freedom.
If he's recovering high (or basically anything that isn't low), weak fair -> fsmash is amazing. If he's recovering low it's a little trickier. If he's coming from far off stage you can usually just dtilt him and be fine. However, if he's close to the stage he can sneak under it if he's timing his up-B well. Going off-stage instead runs the risk of getting hit by a quick DJ -> aerial, but on the other hand it's a completely free edgeguard if he's not able to punish it that way. Whether you should stay on-stage or run off depends on the situation, and what you think the Falcon expects you to do. In any case, you should at least go off-stage sometimes to make sure Falcon always has to account for it. Basically, don't let him cut corners.
Dashdancing is very valuable for both characters in this matchup. Falcon benefits a ton from having lots of room to work with but kinda sucks when he's cornered, and a lot of Falcons like to wait for you to swing (or generally commit to something) and punish you, so you want to gradually close in on him so he either has to give up stage presence or attack. Dtilt is decent in this matchup, but it's not as super annoying and safe as it is in many other matchups, since Falcon is fast and will be jumping a lot.
It's hard to get stuff out of uthrow at very low percents (if it doesn't put him on a platform) since Falcon's so heavy, and fthrow doesn't knock him over so I like dthrow. The techchase is pretty easy, and a cornered Falcon is easy to deal with in general. At mid percents I go for uthrow all the way, though (unless one of the others sets up an easy edgeguard).
Once you've gotten a combo started it's generally pretty easy to keep it going. It's easy to chain several uairs, and there's generally lots of room for you to decide exactly when you want to start carrying him off stage.
Uthrow -> tipper connects at around 50-60-ish and is a pretty good option. Going for a fair/uair combo starter instead will usually yield similar results so you once again have a decent amount of freedom.
If he's recovering high (or basically anything that isn't low), weak fair -> fsmash is amazing. If he's recovering low it's a little trickier. If he's coming from far off stage you can usually just dtilt him and be fine. However, if he's close to the stage he can sneak under it if he's timing his up-B well. Going off-stage instead runs the risk of getting hit by a quick DJ -> aerial, but on the other hand it's a completely free edgeguard if he's not able to punish it that way. Whether you should stay on-stage or run off depends on the situation, and what you think the Falcon expects you to do. In any case, you should at least go off-stage sometimes to make sure Falcon always has to account for it. Basically, don't let him cut corners.
Optimal chaingrab tree vs Fox on FD:
Upthrow CG flowchart against Fox
Read these notes before reading the flowchart:
- All damage numbers in this guide, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are PRE-THROW percentages.
- This flowchart assumes that you have room to work with. If your opponent starts DIing towards an edge you need to be prepared to cut the combo short with a tipper or dair.
- Every follow-up in every step is reactable. There's no need to guess or read which way they'll DI.
- Pummels aren't mandatory, but they make it easier to execute the following move and the extra damage they tack on means the finishing tipper will be stronger.
1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs
2. 17 - 32%:
2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs.
2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.
3.0. 33%:
3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel
3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab
3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab
5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)
5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)
6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)
6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)
7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper
Read these notes before reading the flowchart:
- All damage numbers in this guide, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are PRE-THROW percentages.
- This flowchart assumes that you have room to work with. If your opponent starts DIing towards an edge you need to be prepared to cut the combo short with a tipper or dair.
- Every follow-up in every step is reactable. There's no need to guess or read which way they'll DI.
- Pummels aren't mandatory, but they make it easier to execute the following move and the extra damage they tack on means the finishing tipper will be stronger.
1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs
2. 17 - 32%:
2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs.
2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.
3.0. 33%:
3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel
3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab
3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab
5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)
5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)
6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)
6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)
7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper
Going to be updating this thread as more guides are written by myself and/or others, so if you don't find the matchup you're looking for now, check back again after a little while. I'll make a post in this thread every time I update it.
For a compilation of Marth information that isn't limited to matchup advice, check out this document by MookieRah: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Daf_Dqod1HoMj7L26ITeUM-xKUKhfxh2vJLWOl2N0C8/edit
