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Compilation of matchup guides

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Beat!, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. Beat!

    Beat!
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    Smash Master

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    *DISCLAIMER*

    These guides are for the most part fairly basic and I don't really go into specific/advanced aspects that much. They're mainly aimed at players who struggle with a matchup and need a good starting point. If you already feel that you have a good grasp of a certain matchup and are looking to take it to the next level, then there may not be all that much to take away from these guides. If you think you can learn from them anyway then feel free to read them, though!
    *END OF DISCLAIMER*


    So, since my matchup write-ups have been getting very positive responses so far, and since Mahie and MookieRah requested it, I've decided to compile them into one thread. If a mod sees this and finds the content valuable, a sticky would be highly appreciated.

    Sheik:
    [collapse]Stay grounded. If there's any matchup that really exemplifies the "don't jump against grounded opponents" philosophy, it's Marth vs Sheik. Nair in particular is a move that you'll be punished for more often than not. Fair is a little more viable, but I'd still recommend being careful about using it. Your main tools in the neutral game should be a mix of dashdancing, walking, wavedashing, dtilting, and grabbing. Out of those, grabbing->upthrow is generally the main goal. The others are means to that end more than anything else:
    • Dtilt makes it harder for Sheik to stay grounded and can lead to a grab sometimes.
    • Wavedashing, walking and dashdancing are all used for regular spacing purposes.
    • Dashdancing covers much more space than the other two, but it makes you unable to dtilt (unless you can pivot dtilt, which is extremely difficult to do consistently), which makes it more difficult to challenge Sheik.
    • Walking is slower, but lets you do any move you want at any time, so it's a lot more versatile than dashdancing.
    • Wavedashing lets you cover space faster than walking does, and leaves you with more options than dashdancing does, so it's a bit of a multi-purpose move. WD down -> dtilt is great because you can do it out of a dashdance and it's almost as fast as a pivot dtilt. WD back -> grab is a cookie cutter punish against predictable/poorly timed approaches (generally dash attack in Sheik's case).
    Once you've gotten her into the air, you want her to stay there, because you have far more freedom in that position, and Marth's juggling game is ridiculous. You generally want to be right below her and juggle with well timed uairs and uptilts. Having Sheik diagonally above you is usually not really a big deal because you still have a massive positional advantage, but it does open up for fair/bair/needle shenanigans. If she's directly above you then the only attacking options she really has are nair and dair, both of which lose outright to both uair and uptilt.

    Sheik will obviously do everything in her power to get down, so be aware of all the options she has at any given point. If you're too eager, a well-timed air dodge or DJ from her side can get her back on the ground and reset the position to neutral.

    Speaking of her DJ, if you can bait it out and send her back up again before she lands, she should pretty much not be able to come down again at all for the rest of the stock (at least not without taking a ****-ton of damage first) as long as you time your juggling moves well. At some point you may want to start sending her off stage, but that largely depends on the situation, so it's hard to specific about it. As a rule of thumb, if a strong move (like a nair) will send her far enough to force her to use ub-B, go for it.

    Ken combos and tipper fsmash finishers are also available, but they're far more DI/situation dependent than juggling, so view them as opportunities that you'll capitalize on when they arise, rather than something you need to try to force out of every combo. Marth's punishment game is a bit different from the other top characters in that regard.

    Getting grabbed by Sheik blows, particularly in NTSC. There are a bunch of ways to reduce the damage dealt to you, such as mixing up your DI, DIing to a platform and tech/techroll unpredictably and so forth, but at the end of the day, the best advice is to avoid getting grabbed in the first place. As a rule of thumb, if you have several DI options and the choice is between 1. taking a lot of immediate damage but increasing your chances of resetting the position to neutral, and 2. reducing the amount of combo damage taken but remaining in a ****ty position, you generally want to do the former.[/collapse]

    Peach:
    [collapse]Peach will attempt to pull turnips basically any time it's safe, and you don't want to let her do that. As long as she's grounded, try to stay within an area where you're close enough to be able to punish turnip pulls, but aren't directly threatened by her moves. Her go-to move for dealing with this spacing is dash attack. Always be prepared for it. It's fast, has deceptively long range and is a great combo starter. It will also sneak under your aerials more often than not so you don't want to be jumping all that much (the occasional fair has its merits, but for the most part just stay grounded). Getting her into the air is the main goal, and grab is the most sure-fire way of accomplishing that, but dtilts are also good for making her feel uncomfortable and getting her to float instead.

    Once you've gotten her into the air (whether it's by upthrowing her or her going up there herself) you can be a lot more liberal with aerials. Fair's good against her float when she's diagonally above you because around there is where the hitbox starts and the move just plain outranges her. Don't be reckless though. It's easy to fall for her fade-back bait-> fair if you don't pay attention (or if you play against Armada... >_>).
    Uair's amazing when she's above you. When I say amazing, I mean she's not getting down if you're patient and observant and time them well. If she tries air dodging past the uair, generally what you want to do is either uptilt or grab->upthrow depending on the situation, and then just continue juggling.

    Nair is pretty cool if you can connect it when she's airborne at low percents, because it usually sets up a solid combo (follow-up moves include another nair!!!). In most situations I prefer fair or uair, though.

    I find fthrow and dthrow to be strictly inferior to uthrow in this matchup, but they're not completely useless. If you want to do the fthrow -> cover tech in place with nair and tech chase the other rolls à la M2K, then go ahead. It's not awful. Heck, against bad DI, they can lead to early tipper kills. I heavily prefer uthrow, though. Going for a DI-dependent 50/50 situation just doesn't seem worth it to me when you could be putting yourself in the most positionally advantageous position this matchup has to offer.

    On average, she'll live longer, percentage-wise. You'll simply have to accept that. It's just how the match will play out. Don't try to overcompensate for it by trying to force early kills with fsmash/dair. There will ocasionally be opportunities for those, but don't shape your entire neutral/punish game around that. Instead, focus on juggling. It may feel a bit frustrating to just hit her back up over and over again without killing her, but realize that it's just as (if not more) frustrating to be on the receiving end of a juggle.

    Tipper uptilt kills reasonably early so don't overlook it.

    As for edgeguarding, be patient. Always cover the low options (mainly with dtilt), because it's generally easier for Peach to get back that way. Going high should for the most part just result in you hitting her back off again.
    If she's floating a bit away from the stage, don't be afraid of being a bit pseudo-aggressive with jumps. It forces her to stay back (unless she wants to take an aerial in the face), prevents her from cutting corners and generally makes her more uncomfortable.[/collapse]

    Falcon:
    [collapse]As with most matchups, staying grounded is good. However, Falcon's a heavily aerial-based character, so there's a lot more room than usual for using aerials yourself. Nair and Fair are both good for interrupting his movement and stuffing approaches. You want to be a bit careful if he stays grounded, though, because Falcon's side-B is similar to Peach's dash attack in that it's pretty good at sneaking under aerials, and it sets up combos (and I probably don't have to tell you that Falcon's combo game on Marth is pretty devastating).

    Dashdancing is very valuable for both characters in this matchup. Falcon benefits a ton from having lots of room to work with but kinda sucks when he's cornered, and a lot of Falcons like to wait for you to swing (or generally commit to something) and punish you, so you want to gradually close in on him so he either has to give up stage presence or attack. Dtilt is decent in this matchup, but it's not as super annoying and safe as it is in many other matchups, since Falcon is fast and will be jumping a lot.


    It's hard to get stuff out of uthrow at very low percents (if it doesn't put him on a platform) since Falcon's so heavy, and fthrow doesn't knock him over so I like dthrow. The techchase is pretty easy, and a cornered Falcon is easy to deal with in general. At mid percents I go for uthrow all the way, though (unless one of the others sets up an easy edgeguard).

    Once you've gotten a combo started it's generally pretty easy to keep it going. It's easy to chain several uairs, and there's generally lots of room for you to decide exactly when you want to start carrying him off stage.

    Uthrow -> tipper connects at around 50-60-ish and is a pretty good option. Going for a fair/uair combo starter instead will usually yield similar results so you once again have a decent amount of freedom.

    If he's recovering high (or basically anything that isn't low), weak fair -> fsmash is amazing. If he's recovering low it's a little trickier. If he's coming from far off stage you can usually just dtilt him and be fine. However, if he's close to the stage he can sneak under it if he's timing his up-B well. Going off-stage instead runs the risk of getting hit by a quick DJ -> aerial, but on the other hand it's a completely free edgeguard if he's not able to punish it that way. Whether you should stay on-stage or run off depends on the situation, and what you think the Falcon expects you to do. In any case, you should at least go off-stage sometimes to make sure Falcon always has to account for it. Basically, don't let him cut corners.[/collapse]

    Optimal chaingrab tree vs Fox on FD:
    [collapse]Upthrow CG flowchart against Fox
    Read these notes before reading the flowchart:
    - All damage numbers in this guide, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are PRE-THROW percentages.
    - This flowchart assumes that you have room to work with. If your opponent starts DIing towards an edge you need to be prepared to cut the combo short with a tipper or dair.
    - Every follow-up in every step is reactable. There's no need to guess or read which way they'll DI.
    - Pummels aren't mandatory, but they make it easier to execute the following move and the extra damage they tack on means the finishing tipper will be stronger.


    1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs

    2. 17 - 32%:
    2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs.
    2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.

    3.0. 33%:
    3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
    3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
    3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel

    3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
    3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
    3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
    3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab

    3.2. 35 - ~59%:
    4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
    4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab

    5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)

    5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)

    6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)

    6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)

    7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper[/collapse]



    Going to be updating this thread as more guides are written by myself and/or others, so if you don't find the matchup you're looking for now, check back again after a little while. I'll make a post in this thread every time I update it.

    For a compilation of Marth information that isn't limited to matchup advice, check out this document by MookieRah: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Daf_Dqod1HoMj7L26ITeUM-xKUKhfxh2vJLWOl2N0C8/edit
     
  2. Glitchy

    Glitchy
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    Smash Cadet

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    Great guides! I guess I'll have to follow this thread.
     
  3. MookieRah

    MookieRah
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    Kinda Sorta OK at Smash

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  4. Beat!

    Beat!
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    Smash Master

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    Holy **** that's a lot. I'm gonna have to think about how exactly to structure this thread. I'll put the link in the OP in the meantime.
     
  5. MookieRah

    MookieRah
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    Kinda Sorta OK at Smash

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    You could sorta run with what I was doing, which is having generic Marth vs everyone advice (spacing, movement, etc) then followed up with the character specifics. I was trying to take everything I made and put it into my own words, but obviously it's hard to do that when my understanding of the concepts isn't as deep as it should be to write about it. Perhaps you will have better luck with that.
     
  6. .K1

    .K1
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    what are some good defense options for marth vs Fox/Falco pressure?
     
  7. Beat!

    Beat!
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    Smash Master

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    WD OOS is good against Falco. Not as easy to get away with against Fox because his shield pressure is tighter. Don't forget about rolling, but also don't use it predictably.

    Resist the urge to shieldgrab for the most part.

    Shinegrabs are a pain in the ***. I think staled shine grabs can be punished, though.

    In general, the best advice is to not let them lock you down in shield. Now, that may sound very obvious, but it's important to prioritize not getting caught in that situation in the first place. Knowing what to do when you do get stuck in shield is secondary.

    In the future, I recommend asking your questions in the Ask Dr. Peepee thread. It's far more active and more suitable for these kinds of questions, so you're far more likely to get quick and informative responses from several posters. This thread is primairly meant to act as an easy access to matchup guides and other informative posts.
     
    .K1 likes this.
  8. .K1

    .K1
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    ^^ thanks, ill post in there from now on. The whole "dont get locked down" mantra sounds a lot like "dont get knoceked down" in SF4. Its realllllly easy to say it, but really hard to actually apply it....unless youre daigo.
     
  9. Beat!

    Beat!
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    Smash Master

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    Update: Added a guide to chaingrabbing Fox.
     
  10. Crawfish

    Crawfish
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    MOAR! When are the next ones?
     
  11. Beat!

    Beat!
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    Smash Master

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    I usually wait for people to ask for matchup advice. I guess I could just start writing them anyway.

    One guy did ask for a Puff write-up a while ago though, but I didn't feel completely confident in writing it due to lack of recent matchup experience. However, I have been getting some Puff practice lately, so I'll probably do a write-up soon.

    Definitely gonna do spacies (at least Falco) at some point as well.
     
  12. 7dogguy

    7dogguy
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    @Beat! can do a guide against Link hes such a prick XD especially in Project M but a melee guide would be lovely. sheik guide helped so much ^^ thanks
     
  13. Vivec

    Vivec
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    Please do Climbers next?
     
  14. Beat!

    Beat!
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    Smash Master

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    So many requests! Glad to see my guides are helping. :)

    Gonna get off my lazy *** and do more write-ups, hopefully in the coming weekend or something. I will probably prioritize top/high tier matchups, because I'm more familiar with them.

    I hardly ever play against Link so if I did a write-up on him it would be extremely basic. The Ice Climbers matchup is not quite as foreign to me but it's been a while since I played it so it would be fairly basic as well. Still, if nobody else who reads this feels inclined to write guides for those two, I'll do it eventually.

    I think Puff will be the next character I cover because it was requested earlier and now I've gotten some recent Puff practice so I feel like I have a more solidified idea about the matchup now.
     
  15. swanized

    swanized
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    I'm not confident enough to write anything too in depth but while you wait for Beat's guide I'll tell you this:

    ICs actually can't do anything against fair on place and retreating fair. Since their shield sucks you can just pressure them with shield stops fair and the matchup gets almost impossible for them.

    D-tilt is also pretty good but it can be punished out of shield by a well spaced short hop fair.

    Anyways, just fair them to death and combo nana.
     
  16. MookieRah

    MookieRah
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    Link has a very hard time against Marth. Basically you should close the gap against him so that he can't toss projectiles at you for free. It's kinda similar to how you should be against Peach, in that you want to be close enough to punish her if she pulls a turnip to punish, but don't want to be overextended either. Link is one of the few characters that Marth can get a lot of shield pressure on due to his relatively bad OoS options. All he really has to stop you from spaced attacks is upB, and as long as you are aware of it then it's very easy to punish, especially if you tipper any aerials on his shield. His grab is has too long of a startup to really threaten you from typical things you'd get shield grabbed for, but beware that it's optimal range seems to be the same as your tipper fsmash range.

    Basically, you want to put pressure on Link so that he jumps. Once he jumps, Marth beats his everything in the air without any problems, and he is easy to combo. Make sure to keep good spacing, because his nair comes out very fast and can take you by surprise. Don't get greedy and overextend here and you are fine. It should be noted that dair is annoying too, but you just have to watch your spacing with uairs.
     
  17. Crawfish

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    Marth vs pikachu
     
  18. knoxvader

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    Does something like this exist for Sheik? Or any other char?
     
  19. MookieRah

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    Maybe, but I certainly haven't done it. It's not hard to do, it just takes time. It would be easy to turn into a community project with other Sheik players by having people tackle specific sections of the Q&A thread and pasting it into an open google doc.

    The big problem is editing and organising. That part is crazy, and is why I stopped working on that. The other problem is that I felt that there was a Marth renaissance going on with Dr Peepee and Mow working on new smash theory and Kadano unlocking frame specific secrets on matchups. There is a lot of stuff in that guide, while written less than a year ago, that is outdated.
     
  20. 7dogguy

    7dogguy
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    @MookieRah haha link is very bad against marth but my friend plays like a bad version of aniki XD so like hes very hard to deal with especially on FD =_= lol thanks for your help :)
     
  21. Zanx8

    Zanx8
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    Could you do a write-up for the Marth ditto?
     
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  22. AppleAppleAZ

    AppleAppleAZ
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    Is there anyplace where I can get the optimal falco chaingrab?
     
  23. Son of Slobodan

    Son of Slobodan
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    I know I'm not well known, but I'll give my two cents on the match-up because its one of my favorites and I think I have it down pretty well atleast conceptually. Marth Dittos are cool because they allow you to play much more aggressively than against other characters because marth has a harder time punishing his own moves. The most effective moves are D-Tilit, Grab, and F-Smash. D-Tilt is practically unpunishable and can sometimes lead into a grab. Dash attack is good for over-shooting someone's dash dance if all they're doing is poking and running away. Generally It's better to stay grounded in the matchup and try to get the other marth above you and keep him there with utilits/upairs/fairs. Marth sucks when he's above people and is incredibly good vice versa so you can really make the other marth's life a nightmare by popping them up in the air (mainly with U-throw). If the the other marth is aerial happy I either f-smash them out of the air or wait for them to land after an attack and grab them. Up-throw is a good option if you're not towards the edge, but If you are fthrow will always put them in an awful position even if they DI out of an immediate followup. Stage positioning is crucial in this matchup as marth can easily edge-guard another marth. D-Tilts and f-smashes from the stage are good to check if you think they wont sweet spot properly/will be too hasty to get back. If you knock them off out of their jump you can grab the ledge and back-air them as they come back. Otherwise going off the stage isn't really worth it IMO.
     
  24. MookieRah

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    I'll post a bit on Marth dittos, as that is something I've been doing a lot of lately. I won't go to in depth, but just point out some things.

    1: Never throw out a random fsmash ever, regardless of whatever you might feel in a match. Stick with the safest of safe moves in neutral, even if this means you and your opponent tango for thirty seconds with no real commitment. Have patience, don't give your opponent the tools he needs to beat you.

    2: When dash dancing, be sure to focus on your opponent because the dash attack works so well against it, but if you are quick on reaction then it becomes a huge detriment to your opponent if they try for it.

    3: Always DI away from Marth at low percents, don't give him a free tipper. Also be sure not to DI up when you are fthrown off the ledge as well. Mistakes do happen, so you should also be prepared to DI (or better yet smash DI) the fsmash if you mess up. It's easy to get down as you have a lot of time to react to it.

    4: Don't rely on the above, don't go for fthrow > fsmash unless you know your opponent is not DI'ing. Instead go for the uthrow > juggle. You will get more out of it, and there is still a chance for a tipper if you play your cards right.

    5: SPPPPAAAACCCEE. This isn't like most matches where if your spacing is slightly off then you are still fine. You need to space your aerials so you cannot get hit out of combos and strings. I have found that max range/max height bairs are GREAT for beating out other Marths in the air, as the hitbox is superior to fair/dair. It can also combo fairly well.

    6: Learn all of the ledge tricks. Marth is weak from the ledge and doesn't have a lot of options to return safely. If you haven't, start working on hax dashing (basically jumping from the ledge asap after you grab it and wavedashing back off of the ledge for a regrab, check Kadano's thread for details.) Work very hard on your up B spacing, because Marth can punish non-sweetspotted recoveries very well (there is another trick regarding ledge teching that is also in Kadano's thread that you should learn to help with this).

    7: If you did all of the above, then you should be aware of what Marth can do, so that you can exploit this weakness in a ditto. Be patient at the ledge and know that your opponent is likely going to take percent as long as you stay on point.
     
  25. DJ _ICE

    DJ _ICE
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    Smash Apprentice

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    How about Marth Jiggs? I know there's Kadano's sticky but some more in depth info would be great, especially on how the match is supposedly in Jigg's favor. I heard that the basis is that neither person wants to approach so they can keep playing a campy spacing game
     
  26. goateeguy

    goateeguy
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    On the Jiggs boards they call it 55:45 in Marth's favor. It's obviously somewhat close but I agree with them and I'd be interested in hearing the rationale for Jiggs winning.
     

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