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Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

DunnoBro

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Sheik can ****ing adapt to Lylat lmao. We don't cater to people who are too lazy to learn the legal stages.
I have no idea what the main argument is, but in regards to lylat for sheik, it's really just MU specific in that the slopes weaken her needle camping/approach forcing in a lot of MUs. (Also I believe generally makes her recovery more vulnerable since vanish has no side to grind into with invincibility.)

Though you're correct in that she can take just as much advantage of it, essentially a BF/Dreamland where she doesn't need to worry about getting stairway'd as much and makes grenade much more ambiguous/potent.
 

Click Klack

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Ok, ok. I honestly need help with this. I've only been to 3 tourneys but every time there's this awkward silence between me and my opponent like they're expecting me to do something, and they're waiting for my bans and stuff. I don't know anything about bans, and like who picks their characters first and then there's counter picking stages, so can anyone explain to me basically how a set works? Thanks c:
 

T0MMY

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Ok, ok. I honestly need help with this. I've only been to 3 tourneys but every time there's this awkward silence between me and my opponent like they're expecting me to do something, and they're waiting for my bans and stuff. I don't know anything about bans, and like who picks their characters first and then there's counter picking stages, so can anyone explain to me basically how a set works? Thanks c:
Competitive Discussion boards is not really the best place for set procedures and etiquette. I'm not sure if there's a kind of Q&A place for it and you missed it, or there's really not a place for that kind of question. But I would suggest you study a bit and figure out what you will ban against certain characters (or potential character) you'll be facing off against so you don't leave your opponent waiting for you. Set procedure can vary, so If you are really struggling with this then I would suggest you simply ask a host of the tournament to help you out there in person.
But generally this is a good idea of how a competition should proceed:
1) Agree to characters
a) Determine which player chooses their Character first. Placing your token on a character is seen as agreeing to choose first (choice of confidence). If all teams refuse to place their tokens first there is a disagreement in character choice (see procedure "b" below).
b) If neither player is confident enough to select their character first then ask a host/referee/TO to help with a double-blind choice. This will allow you to choose your character without the opponent knowing what it will be and vice versa.​
2) First Round Stage Selection
a) Agreement - Verbally ask if your opponent would like to go to a commonly used Stage (like Smashville or Battlefield), if they do not want to go to a commonly used Stage then ask which Stage they would like to use; if you are ok with their offer then let them know you agree to use that one.
b) No Agreement - If you cannot agree to a Stage, then do a Stage Strike. Using the available Stages, decide who strikes first. Take turns striking out a usable Stage until only one is left and that is the one you will use.​
3) Counterpicks
After the first game, a counterpick system is usually employed. This means the loser of the previous game gets to choose the Stage from available Stages, but only after the winner of the previous game bans a Stage (sometimes they get two bans).
a) Winner of previous round bans a stage from the available stages (sometimes 2 or rarely more bans).
b) Loser of previous round announces the Stage that will be used for the immediate next game.
c) Winner then chooses their character to be used in conjunction with the counterpicked Stage.
d) Loser of previous round gets to choose their character last, and is seen as a "counterpick" character choice.
Know when you will be initiating the Stage choice or the Ban choice. If your opponent wins the first round then ask what their Stage ban(s) is/are. If you win the first round, be prepared to announce your ban for the next round in a timely manner. Being able to agree to Stages makes things much easier, on the first round I usually ask if my opponent prefers Smashville or Battlefield and offer we could go to an Omega form of a Stage if they'd like.
 

Yikarur

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2) First Round Stage Selection
a) Agreement - Verbally ask if your opponent would like to go to a commonly used Stage (like Smashville or Battlefield), if they do not want to go to a commonly used Stage then ask which Stage they would like to use; if you are ok with their offer​

Why do you put this as Option A: Agreement should be done as less as possible. I'm sick of people agreeing to Smashville, when it's a bad choice in a lot of match-ups :(
 

vegeta18

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do you guys think the stagelist that gets rid of castle seige delfino and halberd as counter picks and only has 1 ban for counter picks will become the new meta for most major tournaments?
 

epicnights

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do you guys think the stagelist that gets rid of castle seige delfino and halberd as counter picks and only has 1 ban for counter picks will become the new meta for most major tournaments?
As of current, it looks like this has already occurred in most of the top level play areas such as Tri-State and West Coast, however I know there are areas such as Florida and Midwest(?) that still use them. I personally would prefer more in order to provide more diversity in counter picking. The 1 stage ban ruling fits the 4x+1≤y standard (in which y is the number of stages and x is the number of stage bans), so I'm fine with it.
 

vegeta18

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As of current, it looks like this has already occurred in most of the top level play areas such as Tri-State and West Coast, however I know there are areas such as Florida and Midwest(?) that still use them. I personally would prefer more in order to provide more diversity in counter picking. The 1 stage ban ruling fits the 4x+1≤y standard (in which y is the number of stages and x is the number of stage bans), so I'm fine with it.
Awesome, I'm trying to convince my local scene to start doing it as well, any tips on how to get it started?
 

epicnights

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Awesome, I'm trying to convince my local scene to start doing it as well, any tips on how to get it started?
I would suggest that you either discuss it with your local TO and said TO's assistants if you want more immediate and definite results. If you're looking for a more passive approach, I'd suggest start counterpicking to these stages during friendlies and tournament matches, and engage in discussion/debate with your local playerbase. debate is a very important part of the persuasion process, after all. Don't forget to look for info on the stages here on Smashboards, facts always help during debate.
 

Yikarur

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The 1 stage ban ruling fits the 4x+1≤y standard (in which y is the number of stages and x is the number of stage bans), so I'm fine with it.
Who comes up with such an arbitrary formula? 1 Stage ban is fine even for 9 Stages. In fact in Brawl we had 11 Stages legal for a long time and were perfectly fine with 1 ban.
 

epicnights

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Who comes up with such an arbitrary formula? 1 Stage ban is fine even for 9 Stages. In fact in Brawl we had 11 Stages legal for a long time and were perfectly fine with 1 ban.
the formula actually does cover that, hence 4x+1 being lesser than or equal to instead of strictly equal to, making it a non-issue.
 

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Why do you put this as Option A: Agreement should be done as less as possible. I'm sick of people agreeing to Smashville, when it's a bad choice in a lot of match-ups :(
As much as it is sub-optimal, most players find it way easier to just agree than go into stage striking.
It somehow helps at preserving a large stagelist.

Awesome, I'm trying to convince my local scene to start doing it as well, any tips on how to get it started?
Why though? there is literally no reason to switch to that.
:196:
 

ParanoidDrone

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This past weekend I attended a small local. The stage list was Apex + Dream Land - Duck Hunt (why Duck Hunt of all stages, though?) but that's not what I'm here to talk about.

What I want to talk about is how at one point my opponent didn't know that Duck Hunt was not a legal stage for this tournament.

I corrected him (he wanted to ban it for my counterpick phase) but I was more disturbed by the implication that apparently there is a subset of players who either don't notice or don't care what the ruleset is, at least not enough to actually check what stages are in play. That kind of apathy is worrisome.
 

Pazx

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This past weekend I attended a small local. The stage list was Apex + Dream Land - Duck Hunt (why Duck Hunt of all stages, though?) but that's not what I'm here to talk about.

What I want to talk about is how at one point my opponent didn't know that Duck Hunt was not a legal stage for this tournament.

I corrected him (he wanted to ban it for my counterpick phase) but I was more disturbed by the implication that apparently there is a subset of players who either don't notice or don't care what the ruleset is, at least not enough to actually check what stages are in play. That kind of apathy is worrisome.
I dunno man, people not being aware of all legal stages is pretty common especially if they attend multiple different events or the stage list is changing, I wouldn't be too concerned.

With regards to Duck Hunt not being legal, some regions have taken a dislike to it, oftentimes preferring Halberd or Castle Siege which in my eyes is ridiculous. Most common reasons cited are the tree facilitating degenerate strategies in a small number of matchups and the fact that the stage "doesn't add anything" to the stages we already have, but I don't think either of those things are banworthy.
 

epicnights

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With regards to Duck Hunt not being legal, some regions have taken a dislike to it, oftentimes preferring Halberd or Castle Siege which in my eyes is ridiculous. Most common reasons cited are the tree facilitating degenerate strategies in a small number of matchups and the fact that the stage "doesn't add anything" to the stages we already have, but I don't think either of those things are banworthy.

Most common reasons cited are the tree facilitating degenerate strategies in a small number of matchups and the fact that the stage "doesn't add anything" to the stages we already have

fact that the stage "doesn't add anything" to the stages

"doesn't add anything"

I'm going to get an aneurysm from people like this. :facepalm:

There always something that a stage can offer, whether it be blastzones or platform layout.
 
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This past weekend I attended a small local. The stage list was Apex + Dream Land - Duck Hunt (why Duck Hunt of all stages, though?) but that's not what I'm here to talk about.

What I want to talk about is how at one point my opponent didn't know that Duck Hunt was not a legal stage for this tournament.

I corrected him (he wanted to ban it for my counterpick phase) but I was more disturbed by the implication that apparently there is a subset of players who either don't notice or don't care what the ruleset is, at least not enough to actually check what stages are in play. That kind of apathy is worrisome.
With how much the rules are changing for 4 right now, plus the fact that Duck Hunt is usually almost always legal, I wouldn't be that shocked if someone didn't know. I'd let that one slide if I were you.
 

T0MMY

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Why do you put this as Option A: Agreement should be done as less as possible. I'm sick of people agreeing to Smashville, when it's a bad choice in a lot of match-ups :(
I don't think rules are based on what you are sick of.
Whether you like it or not every stage selection comes down to an agreement in its bare core. How the competitors get to that agreement is outside of mere opinion and in the realm of logical consequence.

If it's a bad matchup for someone who agrees to it then that's their fault.

And for what it's worth "Option A" does not mean that it is the most important option to be listed first; it is listed first because the procedure benefits from efficiency: there is no need to go through an entire strike process or ban process or whatever-process if both parties simply want to play Fox Only + Final Destination. No TO worth their salt would deny that.
 
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TDK

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There's a stage legality discussion thread here too.

That said there's no standard stage list. You can depend on BF/FD/SV/T&C/DL64/Lylat being legal, but that's about it.
Oh. I asked because my first tournament said "No DLC characters, Platform Stages" in the rules, and I'm confused to what stages it means.
 

Pazx

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I phrased that awkwardly. Those two rules were spaced out as so:

• No DLC Characters
• Platform Levels only
That's even weirder. This is a platform fighter and all levels are platform levels, so I have no idea what you should be expecting.
 

Illuminose

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it's prolly referring to flat + plat stages (smashville, battlefield, t&c, fd, dream land, maybe lylat).
 

Djent

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How on earth could this be considered anywhere near a bad thing?
Because it means that some people will have to lose 3 times to get eliminated, whereas others will only lose twice. You might as well gain the accuracy of RR if you're running an event where not all losses count the same.
 

Pazx

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Because it means that some people will have to lose 3 times to get eliminated, whereas others will only lose twice. You might as well gain the accuracy of RR if you're running an event where not all losses count the same.
If you do RR (with 2 people making it out of each pool) players can get eliminated with only 1 set loss, so I'd say that needing a minimum of 2 losses to get eliminated is better. I think having a "fresh start" with everyone in winners after pools should be done at any event that has time to do so really, more matches = less variance = better. The only minor annoyance is that it's impossible to seed a double elim bracket that avoids having two players from the same pool meet in the first couple of rounds of either winners (Fatality vs 8BitMan) or losers (ESAM vs Day), taking all possibilities into consideration, but this issue is still present when RR pools are used and the issue presents itself anyway albeit only in the losers bracket if you send half the competitors there straight away.

Also, a 17 man double elim pool (like those used at FPS) only has 31 sets. A RR pool with the same number of entrants has a whopping 136 sets.
 

Djent

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They'd have to do 8/9 man pools for RR at a tourney of that size. And yeah, I suppose scenarios where A>B>C>A can potentially be a problem for RR, but I don't think it's enough to offset the "less variance" aspect. My favorite is still just DE all the way through because of the consistency.
 

RenoInMO

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do you guys think the stagelist that gets rid of castle seige delfino and halberd as counter picks and only has 1 ban for counter picks will become the new meta for most major tournaments?
What counterpicks are available in this example? I can think of Lylat, and possibly Omegas if you play with that rule, but not sure what else.
 

vegeta18

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What counterpicks are available in this example? I can think of Lylat, and possibly Omegas if you play with that rule, but not sure what else.
It would be starters are fd,bf,town and city, smashville, and dreamland counter picks are duck hunt and lylat.
 

T0MMY

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do you guys think the stagelist that gets rid of castle seige delfino and halberd as counter picks and only has 1 ban for counter picks will become the new meta for most major tournaments?
Us vets knew this was going to happen for a long time now. Every iteration of the game starts off with lots of options being used (like a lot of Stages) and then dwindles down to core competitive values (usually after about a year the noobs/scrubs have left the scene or started understanding why stages like Temple are not fit for competition).

Honestly, I feel like bans are scrubby and the entire counterpick procedure is anti-competitive. Some of these kinds of rules will not easily change even if there are much stronger options for use in competition... just look at SSB64 and how long it took for them to finally give up Hyrule Castle... like over a decade of suffering that jank. Now if only they drop the stocks from 5 to 3 so we stop having sets taking forever.
SSB4, please learn from our history!
 
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wpwood

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I was just playing friendlies with my friend and I was playing Ganon to practice my punish game. I ended the match with a ganoncide and he told me that in a tournament set Ganon would have lost. I had to disagree because he used the argument for Bowser killing himself with side b, except that the game counts Bowser as dying first while Ganon doesn't die first. I also can't find a rule set that specifically says something on ganoncide to confirm what I am saying though. This may have already been brought up, but I don't have the time to scroll 57 pages.
 

TDK

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dlies with my friend and I was playing Ganon to practice my punish game. I ended the match with a ganoncide and he told me that in a tournament set Ganon would have lost. I had to disagree because he used the argument for Bowser killing himself with side b, except that the game counts Bowser as dying first while Ganon doesn't die first. I also can't find a rule set that specifically says something on ganoncide to confirm what I am saying though. This may have already been brought up, but I don't have the time to scroll 57 pages.
Ganon doesn't die first, so Ganon wins the trade.
 

ぱみゅ

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There is no specific rule because it is one of the many aspects of the game that have always caused division.

For one part, there's the "traditionalist" crew that mentions that the initiator would always win the trade at the board regardless of the Results Screen.
Secondly, we have the "purist" band who say that we should always respect the Results Screen: Award the victory to whoever the game said so, though it may come with a subdivision on what to do in case of a tie, either a rematch or who to assign the point to.
I think there has been a new party of people that want to mark the initiator with a loss.

All in all, it usually changes depending on who you ask to.
:196:
 

Amazing Ampharos

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The best answer is that you have to look at your local tournament rules. If they don't say, assume that the result screen is respected and argue like crazy if anyone tries to tell you otherwise in person. If they do say, you have your local answer... though I remain convinced that special suicide rules are pretty bad policy (there's just nothing about suicides that justify a rule addressing them; the situations that existed in Brawl that led to the original creation of such rules are no longer in effect).
 

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After you realize that Suicide Moves are NEVER decided at random once initiated, you have very few arguments to support such a ruling, if any.

A lot of people just paste it on their rulesets in order to sound like they know what they are talking about by using a lot of difficult rules. The more rules about obscure occurrences (such as mid-match physical/verbal aggression), the more knowledgeable you look, I guess?
:196:
 

Gawain

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Save me if we go 3 stocks... there is no logical reason for it.
 
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