Competitive Smash consumer action

[hype machine]

see, again, the problem is that people keep talking about what "casuals" want as though they're a separate entity from themselves, and then simultaneously arguing that they know what "casuals" care about

if you think that Sakurai is developing the game for a different audience that you're not a part of, it's unreasonable to subsequently imply that you're a part of that audience or that you understand what it wants - it's really easy for you to pretend that "casuals" don't understand the game or how it works or what they want from it, and that's probably why Sakurai doesn't give a damn about people like you think

also: bolded in the quote are changes in Smash 4 that were brought about by complaints from everybody who plays Smash - the game wasn't just changed as a big "**** you" to competitive players, it was changed to keep significant criticisms (from everybody) of previous games in mind (i.e most Smash players think edgehogging is lame as heck)



it was a success for both "kinds" of players, yes - and then the "casuals" moved on to Brawl and subsequently to Smash 4, and the problem here is that everyone tends to assume that the "casuals" just don't care about mechanics changes from game to game whereas in reality they tend to, oh wow, actually have opinions and experience with the video games that they choose to play

there's a lot of people who don't go to tournaments and don't play PM and don't know about l-canceling and wavedashing and etc. who just plain don't like Melee as much as later games because it's too fast or because the recoveries are less good or because shielding feels like a waste of time or etc. etc.

basically what it boils down to is everyone's primary claim is that "casuals won't care if the game is designed how we want it" and the problem with that is that it's just plain not true, and like I already said in the first post I made in this topic, expecting Sakurai to cater to a hilariously small group of people (that consistently insults him) to the detriment of the experience for everyone else who plays the game is just plain folly

There's the smash 4 casuals and the smash 4 competitive community. I really doubt the casual side care about smash 4 mechanics. Never heard them praise shields for being buffed and characters being trapped inside the games engine, but always hear them in joy when they hear mega man was going to be in the game. As for the competitive smash 4 who do care about the mechanics they are going to abondon the game in less than 2 years, just like brawl.

 

[Bleck]

why would even quote that post if you didn't read it

 

[hype machine]

why would even quote that post if you didn't read it

I did read it.Casuals don't care about mechanics, you can Argue that they do but that didn't stop casuals from buying brawl and calling it the best game ever or buying melee and calling it the best game ever. They don't careeee. Did you even read the topic? you argued why would sakurai care about a small group that plays smash over a much larger group. The creator of the topic stated we have nothing to lose, so we are going to write this letter wether you like it or not.

 

[Bleck]

I did read it.

are you sure

 

[hype machine]

are you sure

The people who don't like melees engine is the competitive brawl group and the competitive smash 4 group, the brawl group died and the smash 4 group will most likely die In a few years. I said this in different ways, I'm pretty sure I covered every inch of your quote.

 

[Bleck]

I don't think you read the post, dude

 

[hype machine]

I don't think you read the post, dude

Okay what did I not cover

 

[Excelsior Games]

Interesting read. Curious to see if anything actually grows from it.

 

[hype machine]

I actually tried to talk about the letter and bring in ideas but this guy keeps trying to argue about something else. I think I'm the only one who is axctually talking about the letter.

 

[Excelsior Games]

Honestly, everyone does not have to agree, Just need a like minded few to get the ball rolling. Once the community sees it, they can make a decision and push it if they feel its a positive thing.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

see, again, the problem is that people keep talking about what "casuals" want as though they're a separate entity from themselves, and then simultaneously arguing that they know what "casuals" care about

if you think that Sakurai is developing the game for a different audience that you're not a part of, it's unreasonable to subsequently imply that you're a part of that audience or that you understand what it wants - it's really easy for you to pretend that "casuals" don't understand the game or how it works or what they want from it, and that's probably why Sakurai doesn't give a damn about people like you think

also: bolded in the quote are changes in Smash 4 that were brought about by complaints from everybody who plays Smash - the game wasn't just changed as a big "**** you" to competitive players, it was changed to keep significant criticisms (from everybody) of previous games in mind (i.e most Smash players think edgehogging is lame as heck)



it was a success for both "kinds" of players, yes - and then the "casuals" moved on to Brawl and subsequently to Smash 4, and the problem here is that everyone tends to assume that the "casuals" just don't care about mechanics changes from game to game whereas in reality they tend to, oh wow, actually have opinions and experience with the video games that they choose to play

there's a lot of people who don't go to tournaments and don't play PM and don't know about l-canceling and wavedashing and etc. who just plain don't like Melee as much as later games because it's too fast or because the recoveries are less good or because shielding feels like a waste of time or etc. etc.

basically what it boils down to is everyone's primary claim is that "casuals won't care if the game is designed how we want it" and the problem with that is that it's just plain not true, and like I already said in the first post I made in this topic, expecting Sakurai to cater to a hilariously small group of people (that consistently insults him) to the detriment of the experience for everyone else who plays the game is just plain folly

This is the best post in the whole thread.

No matter how much some people whine about edgehogging, making ledge snaps just 100% guaranteed all the time is far worse. Way I see it, edgehogging is a necessary evil and a vital check on the recovery game, because it forces the recovering player to think about whether they should go for the ledge or stage. Now they can just go to the ledge always no problem. That's stupid.

You seem to have implied earlier that recoveries are the best in smash 4 when 3.02 recoveries existed. Pit by himself made anything in Smash 4 look like trash compared to what he and others had for a recovery. Edgeguarding still exists and is a legit reason to think about where you go, edge trumping has yomi in which if you predict they will hit the ledge you can knock them off and predict what they do next or set-up hits/kills off it. They made it easier to get back to the stage, but it doesn't remove the fact some still aren't that could when you can hit them out of it.

You might think it is necessary which is where the clear issue is, casuals hated edge-hogging with a passion in both Melee and Brawl. They hated it, even if it wasn't broken. This also relates to a lot of what Bleck has been saying with, "because melee" since a lot of it is true when people are very resistant to change because it was different but seem to be hypocritical when people cling to bad game design literally just because it was in Melee. PM trying to be Melee 2.0 instead of a smash game is really where my problems with it are, and it's what people around here really seem to want over just making a smash game that is more aggressive or something. This is why I have been calling people out on this and more so you because I do not believe your claims on it having nothing to do with Melee. People in this thread have already claimed smash 4 will die like Brawl when really the situation isn't the same.

I don't hate Melee despite the OP of the thread calling me a melee hater even though I've entered melee tournaments and paid 180 dollars so someone in another state could go to a big tournament when I wasn't even going to it. I've driven people who came from Illinois to northern Wisconsin so they could go to a Melee tournament up there. I'm not some Melee hater believe me there, I don't like everything from Melee from a game design perspective and that is where my biggest grips with PM are and why I do not like it as much as Melee.

People think they know was casuals want, but they clearly don't in here. This is a major reason why I think the letter is pointless outside of the making your voice heard. It will not accomplish anything outside of making it known and then needing to debate and question with other people on the mechanics when it is a major reason people have debated here. People here are speaking for a part of the community when really there is more than just that, there are other audiences.

People need to acknowledge and accept people really like the game as is, and know what counter points to this would be if people are serious about the letter trying to make changes happen. If they want change to happen, you have to also show why changing this is better for the many over the few which this letter seems to cater only for.

Sakurai is actually a lot smarts than people give him credit for and his dev team. Otherwise the removal of planking/tripping etc. wouldn't have happened or For Glory and an eventual tournament mode to be patched in.

 

[hype machine]

This is the best post in the whole thread.



You seem to have implied earlier that recoveries are the best in smash 4 when 3.02 recoveries existed. Pit by himself made anything in Smash 4 look like trash compared to what he and others had for a recovery. Edgeguarding still exists and is a legit reason to think about where you go, edge trumping has yomi in which if you predict they will hit the ledge you can knock them off and predict what they do next or set-up hits/kills off it. They made it easier to get back to the stage, but it doesn't remove the fact some still aren't that could when you can hit them out of it.

You might think it is necessary which is where the clear issue is, casuals hated edge-hogging with a passion in both Melee and Brawl. They hated it, even if it wasn't broken. This also relates to a lot of what Bleck has been saying with, "because melee" since a lot of it is true when people are very resistant to change because it was different but seem to be hypocritical when people cling to bad game design literally just because it was in Melee. PM trying to be Melee 2.0 instead of a smash game is really where my problems with it are, and it's what people around here really seem to want over just making a smash game that is more aggressive or something. This is why I have been calling people out on this and more so you because I do not believe your claims on it having nothing to do with Melee. People in this thread have already claimed smash 4 will die like Brawl when really the situation isn't the same.

I don't hate Melee despite the OP of the thread calling me a melee hater even though I've entered melee tournaments and paid 180 dollars so someone in another state could go to a big tournament when I wasn't even going to it. I've driven people who came from Illinois to northern Wisconsin so they could go to a Melee tournament up there. I'm not some Melee hater believe me there, I don't like everything from Melee from a game design perspective and that is where my biggest grips with PM are and why I do not like it as much as Melee.

People think they know was casuals want, but they clearly don't in here. This is a major reason why I think the letter is pointless outside of the making your voice heard. It will not accomplish anything outside of making it known and then needing to debate and question with other people on the mechanics when it is a major reason people have debated here. People here are speaking for a part of the community when really there is more than just that, there are other audiences.

People need to acknowledge and accept people really like the game as is, and know what counter points to this would be if people are serious about the letter trying to make changes happen. If they want change to happen, you have to also show why changing this is better for the many over the few which this letter seems to cater only for.

Sakurai is actually a lot smarts than people give him credit for and his dev team. Otherwise the removal of planking/tripping etc. wouldn't have happened or For Glory and an eventual tournament mode to be patched in.

I just can't trust you guys in smash 4, you guys argued the same thing in brawl where people really loved the game including mechanics, but you guys let it die very early when you had a ton of advantages compared to melee, in the result melee had to suffer and almost died in the process. Right now you guys are saying you love smash 4 even for its mechanics and now nintendo is getting on this and taking away streams for project m and the smash 4 fans are just laughing it off, if you guys abondon smash 4 just like you did with brawl then what did pm suffer for? You guys have a ton of advantages right now, you get tournoments hosted by nintendo, nintendo sponsoring other tournoments, YouTube, twitch, an automatic pass to evo, do you know how hard other fg franchises have to work to get into evo? For you guys to get a free pass is a blessing. If you guys let smash 4 die just like brawl and pm dies in the process... I don't know any words that could describe it but it's defiantly not positive. As a pm player I'm pretty salty about it. Most of my post may be irrelevant but at least you can understand where my salt is coming from, I dont like the fact that the game I play may die, it's not because your game is better or more people like your game, it's the fact nintendo is attacking pm at all angles, you can argue that they can't support it, but they are taking it out from tournoments when they don't need to and VGBC isn't posting PM matches anymore and I'm 99% sure nintendo is behind it. This post has some irrelevance but so does most of this thread, if you guys like smash 4 so much prove it.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I just can't trust you guys in smash 4, you guys argued the same thing in brawl where people really loved the game including mechanics, but you guys let it die very early when you had a ton of advantages compared to melee, in the result melee had to suffer and almost died in the process. Right now you guys are saying you love smash 4 even for its mechanics and now nintendo is getting on this and taking away streams for project m and the smash 4 fans are just laughing it off, if you guys abondon smash 4 just like you did with brawl then what did pm suffer for? You guys have a ton of advantages right now, you get tournoments hosted by nintendo, nintendo sponsoring other tournoments, YouTube, twitch, an automatic pass to evo, do you know how hard other fg franchises have to work to get into evo? For you guys to get a free pass is a blessing. If you guys let smash 4 die just like brawl and pm dies in the process... I don't know any words that could describe it but it's defiantly not positive. As a pm player I'm pretty salty about it. Most of my post may be irrelevant but at least you can understand where my salt is coming from, I dont like the fact that the game I play may die, it's not because your game is better or more people like your game, it's the fact nintendo is attacking pm at all angles, you can argue that they can't support it, but they are taking it out from tournoments when they don't need to and VGBC isn't posting PM matches anymore and I'm 99% sure nintendo is behind it. This post has some irrelevance but so does most of this thread, if you guys like smash 4 so much prove it.

If Smash Wii U dies out, then it dies out. That's not our problem if a large amount of people drop and tired of it, it's Nintendo's lol. It'll always be here as long as we have a means of playing it. Same for PM.

 

[KayB]

Honestly at this point I could give less of a **** of what Nintendo does to Smash. As long as they don't add things like tripping that deliberately hurt the competitive scene and don't create characters like Brawl MK, a competitive scene is more than salvageable as long as the core game, even from a casual standpoint, is enjoyable, and past Smash games have proven that.

It's been 14 years and two games, we're not going to get a Melee sequel in the same way Brawl had Smash 4, and that's something we'll just have to swallow.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I just can't trust you guys in smash 4, you guys argued the same thing in brawl where people really loved the game including mechanics, but you guys let it die very early when you had a ton of advantages compared to melee, in the result melee had to suffer and almost died in the process. Right now you guys are saying you love smash 4 even for its mechanics and now nintendo is getting on this and taking away streams for project m and the smash 4 fans are just laughing it off, if you guys abondon smash 4 just like you did with brawl then what did pm suffer for? You guys have a ton of advantages right now, you get tournoments hosted by nintendo, nintendo sponsoring other tournoments, YouTube, twitch, an automatic pass to evo, do you know how hard other fg franchises have to work to get into evo? For you guys to get a free pass is a blessing. If you guys let smash 4 die just like brawl and pm dies in the process... I don't know any words that could describe it but it's defiantly not positive. As a pm player I'm pretty salty about it. Most of my post may be irrelevant but at least you can understand where my salt is coming from, I dont like the fact that the game I play may die, it's not because your game is better or more people like your game, it's the fact nintendo is attacking pm at all angles, you can argue that they can't support it, but they are taking it out from tournoments when they don't need to and VGBC isn't posting PM matches anymore and I'm 99% sure nintendo is behind it. This post has some irrelevance but so does most of this thread, if you guys like smash 4 so much prove it.

Not the response I expected to be honest.

Because it improved Brawl ten fold, you can't deny that it did and why a lot of people jumped ship. Brawl was dying because PM became a thing and Melee got picked up by Evo. People are definitely supporting it now and getting numbers far bigger than even PM got at times. You can call it a free pass if you want, but it doesn't change the fact people are willing to support the game. If it does it does, but doomsday talk is pointless when different situations happened, a lot being how Evo and Project M more or less made Brawl die more so than people jut abandoning Brawl for Melee. Unless you are implying that we should go back to it? But why? What would it offer people who played Brawl vs Smash 4? That's a real question that has a clear answer for almost all of the community.

Game quality has nothing to do with why PM is getting the shaft, it's because it's a mod and literally just that. It's not an official smash game so any luck hosting it at EVO/MLG anything not grass roots is auto gone, then sponsorship's from some places would require PM to just not be there because of the legal issues it has.

I hate to be that guy with this but, the moment people make their main game something that was derivative of another person's work the project had it coming at one point or another. Same if people tried it with Smash Flash or Smash Crusade etc. That is where the issue is from. VGBC issue though, I think that is more Ale Strife than Nintendo given what was brought to light on what he was saying about Project M. Something if I recall APEX qualifiers if they hosted it not allowed to stream it I think. I need to check that chat again.

Nintendo really doesn't want to cut off and destroy PM, just they can never directly support it otherwise they will have to do something about it for the worse of PM.

I know someone is going to bring up Steam and Valve about this again. But I need to keep reminding people that console modding is not the same as PC modding, those are entirely different legal issues and how open either one can be with it entirely depends on the medium. You cannot treat a console or a company the same in both situations. Nintendo can't support PM because it would indirectly support modding and hacking which they can't even attempt to cross that line.

If PM wants to thrive, it needs grassroots support.

 

[MegaMissingno]

We had grassroots support. But now the biggest grassroots tournament sold out and started ruining other events like Paragon along with it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

We had grassroots support. But now the biggest grassroots tournament sold out and started ruining other events like Paragon along with it.

Then push for them to be hosted at other ones.

 

[JOE!]

I think one thing that is missing here is longevity. IMO, competitive players are the ones who keep playing the game years after release in any serious fashion. Many casuals may buy the game, play for 1-3 months then move on only to pop it in once in a blue moon. In terms of what the hardcore players who will be playing the game for years to come, why not toss them a bone for continuing to promote, support and enjoy your product?

Fact of the matter is that a sale is a sale though, so a casual who will play for a month is just as valuable as a competitive players who will play for years.

 

[equationcrunchor]

I am a casual, if you define casual as "my wavedash is an airdodge off the stage to SD." And honestly, none of us care about your two frames of aerial lag. Of course, we do notice things like in Brawl characters are more floaty and stuff, but Sakurai could make the game more friendly to competitive players with little effort and no complaints from "filthy casuals." Setting the game back to Melee might be bad, but how is this shield stun stuff going to affect our gameplay? Nobody breaks shields in casual play except with Marth shield-breaker. I know this because I am a casual, my friends are casuals, and our favorite game second to Smash 4 is Project M.

 

[JOE!]

You're on the pm section of swf. You're not exactly casual if you find your way here

 

[zpxociv]

Is there like 10,000 signatures or something that goes with this greedy list of entitled demands? This is a joke without a show of lots of support. Don't delude yourself that Nintendo would ever listen to just one loud, obnoxious complainer. I'd also drop all the gimmick whining and focus on just the smash problems. God, this is never going to work because you just don't know how to be reasonable about it.

 

[MegaMissingno]

The lines between casual and hardcore are blurring. Lots of people these days "casually" hop on For Glory, a 1v1 no items environment, and play it for fun. For Glory has created a growing playerbase that's bringing more and more new players into a semi-competitive-ish atmosphere, even if they're not going all the way to tournaments. It's not really that accurate anymore to say that it's only a tiny minority that cares about this type of play now that there's an official online mode for it, or that they shouldn't bother trying to design or balance for it.

And I have seen quite a ton of rants on reddit and other forums from new and more casual players trying to get into For Glory and saying they can't stand how prevalent campy play is. I particularly see lots of complaints from people having a hard time dealing with shields and rolls. It's a widespread issue that plenty of people aren't happy with.

 

[hype machine]

Is there like 10,000 signatures or something that goes with this greedy list of entitled demands? This is a joke without a show of lots of support. Don't delude yourself that Nintendo would ever listen to just one loud, obnoxious complainer. I'd also drop all the gimmick whining and focus on just the smash problems. God, this is never going to work because you just don't know how to be reasonable about it.

Wow reading this made me realize that we should get the melee side with us as well, together our support will double.

 

[Vigilante]

I'll be late on the text. I was given a LOT of work to do.

 

[JCOnyx]

Trust me Bleck, I don't want anything like Nair Shine or Falco laser pressure to become commonplace in Smash 4 (although Link's jabs seem to be really good at frame trapping) but I do want some attacks to at least come out near +0 when shielded and/or spaced right.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2ul1a2/new_tech_links_jab_cancel_is_an_inescapable_combo/
Just wanted to say that I saw this coming from a mile away lol. It's things like this that make me question some of the decisions made in S4.

 

[hype machine]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2ul1a2/new_tech_links_jab_cancel_is_an_inescapable_combo/
Just wanted to say that I saw this coming from a mile away lol. It's things like this that make me question some of the decisions made in S4.

U sure the guy just cant airdodge? If not Smash 4 is lucky this wasnt discovered before Apex otherwise there would have been a huge upset

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

air dodges have a lot of endlag so it wouldn't even be worth it

 

[hype machine]

yea after reading the description and comments i found out you cant airdodge or smash Di.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It doesn't work on everyone or at every percent, and this isn't going to break Link. This only works because how the move works via where people get sent afters Link's Jab 1.

You can get out eventually and for some it just it lets Link get a kill around 80 on most people this works on and a lot of characters get out of it easily. The earliest this works on people is around 65% on a specific character. Otherwise this really is just a kill confirm off a jab. It's not a true infinite.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

It doesn't work on everyone or at every percent, and this isn't going to break Link. This only works because how the move works via where people get sent afters Link's Jab 1.

You can get out eventually and for some it just it lets Link get a kill around 80 on most people this works on and a lot of characters get out of it easily. The earliest this works on people is around 65% on a specific character. Otherwise this really is just a kill confirm off a jab. It's not a true infinite.

This alone will help the complaints around how long players live though, which is good.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The lines between casual and hardcore are blurring. Lots of people these days "casually" hop on For Glory, a 1v1 no items environment, and play it for fun. For Glory has created a growing playerbase that's bringing more and more new players into a semi-competitive-ish atmosphere, even if they're not going all the way to tournaments. It's not really that accurate anymore to say that it's only a tiny minority that cares about this type of play now that there's an official online mode for it, or that they shouldn't bother trying to design or balance for it.

And I have seen quite a ton of rants on reddit and other forums from new and more casual players trying to get into For Glory and saying they can't stand how prevalent campy play is. I particularly see lots of complaints from people having a hard time dealing with shields and rolls. It's a widespread issue that plenty of people aren't happy with.

A lot of this, mostly with rolls, died down a lot when people got better or used to it.

People aren't used to Brawl Lucario/MK good rolls but are getting better at it. If it happens oh well, this happens in every game even PM. Casual people will complain in every game.

This alone will help the complaints around how long players live though, which is good.

I'd rather see it get patched out, since I still think this is kinda bogus even if it won't break Link and the only only characters with something simular is Falco, though his doesn't work at all as well as Links, Fox who moves forwards and does a Smash 64 like Combo with jab 1>Jab 2>Jab1>Jab2>Usmash because he moves forward while he does it. And Rosalina's Luma but he is specific and requires the most unlikely situation to happen.

Still it gives him a legit kill set-up on some characters, but some of the characters this works on will most likely still beat him in the match-up.

 

[hype machine]

in that case it wont be seen as much in top level play, but i cant believe alot people think this will actually help the meta improve.

 

[Flux20XX]

ill be honest this maybe irrelevant but people who want to get into the community are scared to do so because if they say there good its automatic backlash and hopefully you guys want are community to grow as a whole and very few actually offer to help by offering personal friendlies or example to help the newcomer im actually quite scared to be judged myself but maybe thats just of my... but either way thanks for reading and sorry if this is irrelevant wanna find and support the community.

 

[hype machine]

ill be honest this maybe irrelevant but people who want to get into the community are scared to do so because if they say there good its automatic backlash and hopefully you guys want are community to grow as a whole and very few actually offer to help by offering personal friendlies or example to help the newcomer im actually quite scared to be judged myself but maybe thats just of my... but either way thanks for reading and sorry if this is irrelevant wanna find and support the community.

When i first went to my local tourney people were really nice, and the people at locals dont even do half the things of what you see in top level play.

 

[Flux20XX]

When i first went to my local tourney people were really nice, and the people at locals dont even do half the things of what you see in top level play.

Nah i mean in the internet i see people just cutting wounds and rubbing salt just because they ask for help on this community i think self esteem plays in this aswell

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Nah i mean in the internet i see people just cutting wounds and rubbing salt just because they ask for help on this community i think self esteem plays in this aswell

I know what you mean, but fortunately the people who frequent this section of the forums are pretty good about this, especially on the matchmaking thread.

 

[Flux20XX]

i would say this i literally cant short hop with fox in an actual match and i avoid shines but then i cant stop short hoping with falco and it messes up my combos shine to dair. what do ? i literally spend from 3pm to 11:00 practicing against computer and its really fun yet frustrating

 

[hype machine]

i would say this i literally cant short hop with fox in an actual match and i avoid shines but then i cant stop short hoping with falco and it messes up my combos shine to dair. what do ? i literally spend from 3pm to 11:00 practicing against computer and its really fun yet frustrating

Short hopping is something that cant be learned youre just going to have to train yourself to move your fingers faster, Try bending your thumb (Nearly 90 degrree angle) it will probobly help you short hop with fox. Also when i do my full hops i use the joy stick, but if you use tap jump, youre going to have to teach youself to hold Y a little longer when you need to.

 

[hype machine]

Also its not about how light you press the Y button but how fast you can release the Y button. Also dont give up on learning how to shorthop with characters like fox, it may seem impossible at first but your fingers do get faster the more you practice it took me a month to get shorthopping down cosistantly, but once you do it will feel very rewarding. Also before a match you should warm up, alot of the times in mornings i cant shorthop because my fingers feel lazy and slow untill i do warmups

 

[Flux20XX]

Also its not about how light you press the Y button but how fast you can release the Y button

i can do it but not in mid match so i rely on match ups so that i can counter them easily