Competitive Smash consumer action

[Vigilante]

I've been thinking about starting this for a while, and I think the time is right.

With Nintendo of Japan and Mr. Sakurai's recent behaviour towards the competitive community, it is clear that the Super Smash Bros. franchise is never going to compromise into including competitive players in its design. At this point, I don't think there is much for us to lose.

I believe it would be wise as concerned consumers to voice our grievances to Nintendo. In any normal business relationship, whenever a consumer is not happy with a given product, he should give feedback, and he has every right to voice his concern. I think we all want Super Smash Bros. to be competitively-friendly, and Nintendo needs to know the impact its recent behaviour has on its consumers.

However, this has to be done right. Voicing our concern does not mean using threats, violence, name-calling, or other rude behaviour. We must remain polite and show maturity. I also wish to state that I am doing this of my own initiative. What I say does not reflect the opinion of any group I am part of. It is mine and mine alone.

The goal is really simple. All that is needed is to voice your grievances with Nintendo in terms of them not completely respecting their competitive smasher audience and end your social media posts with #Nintendo-Senpai.

That will keep this rather humourous, and implies that we wish to be noticed. We will also need to spread this and get more people on board.

This may not work, but at the very least, we will have done something. We've been rather passive about this stuation, and I don't think anyone could blame us. However, as I have stated, keep this polite.

Now here is mine. I have aired other grievances I have as well, and you should be free to air any additional grievances you have. You don't even have to agree with each other or myself on every point. However, Nintendo needs to notice that we would like to be noticed:

Dear Nintendo,

I’ve grown with your games, and have been a fan of your franchises for a while. However, I have grown displeased of some of your more recent decisions of late. I have three main grievances to talk about: The anti-competitive attitude of Nintendo towards the Smash Bros. Community, gimmicks in your core titles, and limited supplies on bundles, bundles, and special editions of your games.


Super Smash Bros:

Competitive Smash Bros. Players have had to deal with a lot of problems. Certainly, Nintendo of America is now sponsoring Apex 2015, but the main problem we are facing still remains.

Super Smash Bros. For Wii U and 3DS is a very slow game with high emphasis on defense and floaty physics if compared to some of its predecessors. Mechanically-speaking, it lacks the advanced techniques we as competitive smashers enjoyed in Melee and Smash 64 such as Wavedashing of L-canceling. They greatly rewarded players for spending time with the game and added a lot of depth to it. Furthermore, the lack of hitstun prevents this game from rewarding combos as well as offensive strategies, turning matches into a less interesting spectator sport for many.

Competitive smashers believe in compromise. We believe that Super Smash Bros. Can be fun at both a party level and at a competitive level. We believe that Super Smash Bros. Melee has proven this to be correct. Unfortunately, the scene is highly divided on an issue that I believe could be avoided. We are fans too, and we would like to be respected as such. As a consumer, I want to air these grievances, as I do not believe that being quiet about them will be of any use to you. Please keep in mind that I am not blaming Nintendo of America for this situation. You are however my only means of communication to provide feedback to. I admit to being alarmed at seeing my community turn into a cynical mess.

We want to work with you, not against you. We want a game that is enjoyable for all.



Gimmicks:

Now, onto gimmicks. By gimmicks, I am speaking of motion controls and anything that falls out of the real of using a normal traditional controller. During the Wii era, motion controls made me fall out of love with Nintendo. I used to be almost... fanatical about Nintendo brand products. However, I could not get past the fact that it took away my reason for playing video games: relaxation. Being physically active while playing games did not appeal to me. Being left-handed became a disadvantage, precision was low.

The Gamepad falls under a similar problem. I worry for games like Star Fox U and Zelda U who may force Gamepad use on games that I would earnestly prefer to use traditional controls for.

Each gimmick you add divides your public further. There are many who like Nintendo games but simply don’t like these forced functions. They would rather play your games with a normal traditional controller. Were the option always present, this would not be much of a problem, but unfortunately, every time we see a trailer for a game, we never know what to expect. I am still worried about Star Fox U, and despite being a long-term fan of the series, I will not be getting it if it cannot be played in a traditional manner. I am not against innovation, but I believe that innovation is something that can be achieved through gameplay. You have the talent. Please believe in yourself.



Limited supplies:

Personally, I am someone who would like to get full sets of your amiibos, but I simply cannot afford a whole wave in one go. I need to pace my spending sprees. I also lucked out getting a limited edition Majora’s Mask 3D with the New 3DS, but I had to run from store to store to find one. I got lucky because I was off work. Many are saddened, angry even at this situation.

The truth is that many more people would like to buy your products, but when they do, they are sold out in a matter of minutes. Scalpers buy them and resell them at ridiculous prices. With the amiibos for instances, I am losing interest in collecting them, and I fear that your lack of stock is going to turn people away from them, which I am sure is not what you desire. Mind you, I understand the issue. Keeping stocks is expensive, but I believe you should have a little more faith in your brand. These things are selling like free cake. We would like to see more of them around.

I remain a fan of Nintendo’s brand, despite disliking some of the things you have done of late. Forcing motion controls and Gamepad gimmicks has made me lose some trust in your brand. I’m in fact worried that Zelda U and Star Fox will force these gimmicks on the game and not let me play the way I enjoy playing games, with a good old, comfortable and relaxing controller. You are making a lot of divisive decisions, and honestly, I don’t think you need to rely on these gimmicks. Trust in your brand, trust in your developers. I consider myself a critical fan. I like some of the things you do, but dislike a lot of the things you have done of late.

Annoying your customers will cost you big. People will lost interest in your amiibos if they are hard to find. People will shy away from your systems if you don’t let them play the way they enjoy, and people will move on if they aren’t respected, and that includes competitive smashers who merely want a fast-paced game with the advanced techniques of old.

This is not an angry letter, but one of concern. I want to believe in your brand, but you are slowly losing me, and losing many of us.



#Nintendo-Senpai

https://plus.google.com/104050834742137436583/posts/YF9VtFTQhMR

 

[Rhubarbo]

I agree with mostly everything you've said. Regarding gimmicks, I think if Nintendo bothered to create more meaningful eccentricities, we wouldn't call them gimmicks, we'd just accept them as features.

Anyway, Sakurai's and thus Nintendo's main concern in developing a complex Smash Bros. game is splintering the fan-base, so I'll try to come up with a reasonable solution for the next game as a die-hard fan. I'll concede that casual players need and deserve a benign environment to enjoy Smash apart from astronomically better opponents, which means the meta-game has to be kept arms length away from them. However, I think Smash's competitive base is big enough to warrant the existence of a substantive, deep meta-game per entry in the series. In essence, I'm arguing for a professionally developed hard-core mode only available to players who are exceptionally committed to playing at a higher level; I believe the fan-base should be carefully divided in a way that should never affect casual players and only annoy but a handful of skill oriented die-hards.

I propose that skill mitigating mechanics like multi-airdodging, ledge snapping, set-momentum jumps, and so on be be tied to toggling switches and/or sliders. All mechanical options would be locked away until every other main feature (i.e. everything except trivial collectibles) is unlocked first. This staunch criterion ensures casual players never fall face first into a game way beyond their level, and only charges die-hards with the task of additional play time they'd likely put in regardless. Any casual who perseveres and unlocks mechanical options could choose to never mess with them, but if they did, their evident commitment to the series shows that they're willing and capable for a deeper Smash experience. I reckon only very few die-hards would complain about an excuse to play more of their favourite game. By all accounts, this seems to be a win-win scenario so far.

An undertaking like toggling mechanics would require additional development time. I maintain that it would be worth it on Nintendo's end. I haven't bought a Wii U mainly because no particular game, including Smash 4, has won me over. Actually, because I'm quite bitter about the negligent design philosophy Smash 4 took in relation to competitive Smash, in some ways, I've refused to buy a Wii U on conscientious grounds. Nevertheless, I recognize my reasoning is in the minority, so I'd like to stress the hype (see, marketing) power of the competitive Smash scene en masse. Although I can't provide exact numbers, major Melee tournaments on Twitch have garnered well over 100,000 viewers. Grass roots exposure of this sorts is easy for Nintendo, and also builds a personal loyalty between consumer and franchise. Nintendo can leverage this extra, committed popularity in the way of advertising for future games whose series are represented in Smash, DLC expansion, micro transactions, and so on; it generally benefits Nintendo. Surely this benefit is worth Nintendo allocating a few hundred additional man hours.

(I suppose Nintendo thinks they will get this sort of exposure with Smash 4's sponsored presence at APEX. I predict Smash 4 will be extremely boring, I expect it will be ridiculed, and I expect a lot of players to permanently leave the Smash 4 community afterward. Competitive exposure fundamentally needs a good competitive game, which Smash 4 isn't.)

How would character balance work in this system? I suppose it would be a reasonable concession to accept Nintendo mainly just balancing the game for the presumably preferred casual mode. However, assuming the series doesn't take a radical game play shift for the first time in its fifth installment, perhaps the developers could spend extra time implementing mechanical switches and sliders not just for universal mechanics, but for character moves and traits as well. I imagine fans would be able to create and share custom rule-sets for various audiences (e.g. Halo's MLG fileshared variant) with this, giving the community another welcomed jolt.

I believe Nintendo should cater to the whole spectrum of Smash Bros. fans. To do this, they have to acknowledge the competitive scene's existence, which they have admittedly made strides in, and they have to be convinced of its worth. After this point is crossed, I think the best way Nintendo can keep everyone happy is by making Smash a customizable experience with a few backstops to prevent casual fans from undesirably entering a world of pain and skill.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Edited the letter in the OP (mostly for spelling, punctuation, and style) to the following, and sent to Nintendo@noa.nintendo.com .

Spoiler

Dear Nintendo,
The content of this email has been largely edited from that of a friend who articulates his feelings better than I could. I hope that its feelings (or those in a similar letter) are eventually communicated to someone in your company who cares, and is able to make an impact.
If this is the wrong address for this sort of letter, please direct me to the right one.
--
I’ve grown with your games, and have been a fan of your franchises for a while. However, I have grown displeased of some of your more recent decisions of late. I have three main grievances to talk about: The anti-competitive attitude of Nintendo towards the Smash Bros. Community, gimmicks in your core titles, and limited supplies on bundles, bundles, and special editions of your games.
Super Smash Bros:
Competitive Smash Bros. Players have had to deal with a lot of problems. Certainly, Nintendo of America is now sponsoring Apex 2015, but the main problem we are facing still remains.
Super Smash Bros. For Wii U and 3DS is a very slow game with high emphasis on defense and floaty physics if compared to some of its predecessors. Mechanically-speaking, it lacks the advanced techniques we as competitive smashers enjoyed in Melee and Smash 64 such as Wavedashing of L-canceling. They greatly rewarded players for spending time with the game and added a lot of depth to it. Furthermore, the lack of hitstun prevents this game from rewarding combos as well as offensive strategies, turning matches into a less interesting spectator sport for many.
Competitive smashers believe in compromise. We believe that Super Smash Bros. Can be fun at both a party level and at a competitive level. We believe that Super Smash Bros. Melee has proven this to be correct. Unfortunately, the scene is highly divided on an issue that I believe could be avoided. We are fans too, and we would like to be respected as such. As a consumer, I want to air these grievances, as I do not believe that being quiet about them will be of any use to you. Please keep in mind that I am not blaming Nintendo of America for this situation. You are however my only means of communication to provide feedback to. I admit to being alarmed at seeing my community turn into a cynical mess.
We want to work with you, not against you. We want a game that is enjoyable for all, and we feel that allowing it to be played quickly does not take any appeal away from the more casual players you've been targeting lately.
Gimmicks:

Now, onto gimmicks. By gimmicks, I am speaking of motion controls and anything that falls out of the real of using a normal traditional controller. During the Wii era, motion controls made me fall out of love with Nintendo. I used to be extremely outspoken of my love for Nintendo brand products. However, I could not get past the fact that clunky motion controls, touch screens, and other unnecessary technological barriers took away the immersion, and sense of precision and feedback I used to enjoy.

The Gamepad falls under a similar problem. I worry for games like Star Fox U and Zelda U who may force Gamepad use on games that for which I would earnestly prefer to use traditional controls.

Each gimmick you add divides your public further. There are many who like Nintendo games but simply don’t like these forced functions. They would rather play your games with a normal traditional controller. Were the option always present, this would not be much of a problem, but unfortunately, every time we see a trailer for a game, we never know what to expect. I am still worried about Star Fox U, and despite being a long-term fan of the series, I will not be getting it if it cannot be played in a traditional manner. I am not against innovation, but I believe that innovation is something that can be achieved through gameplay. You have the talent. Please believe in yourself.


Limited supplies:

The truth is that many more people would like to buy your products, but when they do, they are sold out in a matter of minutes. Scalpers buy them and resell them at ridiculous prices. With the amiibos for instance, I fear that your lack of stock is going to turn people away from them, which I am sure is not what you desire. Mind you, I understand the issue. Keeping stocks on hand is expensive, but I believe you should have a little more faith in your brand. These things are selling like free cake. We would like to see more of them around.

I remain a fan of Nintendo’s brand, despite disliking some of the things you have done of late. Forcing motion controls and Gamepad gimmicks has made me lose some trust in your brand. I’m in fact worried that Zelda U and Star Fox will force these gimmicks on the game and not let me play the way I enjoy playing games, with a good old, comfortable and relaxing controller. You are making a lot of divisive decisions, and honestly, I don’t think you need to rely on these gimmicks. Trust in your brand, trust in your developers. I consider myself a critical fan. I like some of the things you do, but dislike a lot of the things you have done of late.

Annoying your customers will cost you big. People will lose interest in your amiibos if they are hard to find. People will shy away from your systems if you don’t let them play the way they enjoy, and people will move on if they aren’t respected, and that includes competitive smashers who merely want a fast-paced game like the ones of old.

This is not an angry letter, but one of concern. I want to believe in your brand, but you are slowly losing me, and losing many of us.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I think we should try to keep it just about one issue at a time, since not everyone is going to agree with all three. I actually love the Gamepad because it feels to me like they're moving back towards traditional controls as the default with the screen as an extra. It still has a full two sticks, one d-pad, and 10 buttons. The screen is simply an added bonus, and it's one that's proven its value already back on the DS. Games don't have to shoehorn it in if they don't need to, unlike how the Wiimote's lack of buttons and sticks forced developers to get the motion controls in there in order to fit everything they needed. And so far games haven't been shoehorning it in unnecessarily, they're only using it when they actually have a good reason to.

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

honestly i think asking them to make the game more competitive will deter them from doing so, since we are not their goal. for example melee was never supposed to be competitive. it was not made to be played at high levels in tournaments. the diverse character base along with superb movement options and tech skill gave birth to that. I feel that nintendo doesnt have to really try hard to please use. No one is asking for a completely competitive smash brothers game, like how street fighter is really competitive. Make the game to cater to your audience Nintendo, just give us movement options I.e wavedashing and some jc moves. If Sm4sh had the movement options we all love it would be GOAT smash.

 

[Vigilante]

I think we should try to keep it just about one issue at a time, since not everyone is going to agree with all three. I actually love the Gamepad because it feels to me like they're moving back towards traditional controls as the default with the screen as an extra. It still has a full two sticks, one d-pad, and 10 buttons. The screen is simply an added bonus, and it's one that's proven its value already back on the DS. Games don't have to shoehorn it in if they don't need to, unlike how the Wiimote's lack of buttons and sticks forced developers to get the motion controls in there in order to fit everything they needed. And so far games haven't been shoehorning it in unnecessarily, they're only using it when they actually have a good reason to.

For the most part, it's about emailing Nintendo our grievances and putting them out there on social media, but Smash should be at the forefront, you are right.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The gamepad in it of itself is far from a harmful gimmick or problematic one. It's a glorified console DS controller if you ask me, and usually it is integrated in a far from intrusive way which lets developers utilize it if they want to.

It has motion built in but most games don't use that because it's clunky. I honestly quite LIKE the Gamepad ESPECIALLY in comparison to the Wii, it gives devs a lot of playing room and time to experiment. Look at how it benefited Wind Waker HD by letting you quick change inventory.

I'm not worried about Zelda U at all, nor am I worried about the WiiU's gimmick, if you will. It's not uncomfortable and it only serves to expand in-game possibilities, and so far most of the games that I have played have either made meaningful use of it for certain things, or just used the off-screen play feature. Hell, off-screen play is probably THE best part about it because I know my TV lamp blew out during a Smash 4 session online (yes that sucked) but the Gamepad let me keep going.

Just wanted to chime in with that. Clearly the Wii was an experiment and so was the WiiU, but this should be about Smash. The WiiU as a console and peripheral is fine IMO. I think controller wise the WiiU absolutely DWARFS the Wii and is in general an already largely evident improvement over its predecessor in that regard, and is not really worth noting. You could bring up Star Fox but most of the WiiU's best games (i.e. its first party lineup) shows no forced usage of the Gamepad, at least in an overly intrusive way (you tap things and talk into a mic in 3D World, not that big of a deal there though, DS tier).

Let's keep it about Smash because let's be real, they'll always offer GC controller support LOL. Even in 30 years.

Also from what I can tell NoA is pretty okay with the idea of a Smash game being oriented towards the hardcore audience, the problem is that they are a mouthpiece to NoJ about this and then it has to go through the director (or former director, IDFK if he's done or not) Masahiro Sakurai. According to most people at the E3 tourney, Nintendo reps were actually writing down legitimate feedback that probably did get passed but I can imagine how far that went.

And just to expand on why I believe this should only be about Smash, the division in fanbases or whatever is only really prevalent there. Compare Smash to their other core titles. A lot of Mario fans LOVE 3D World, Zelda U looks great, Link Between Worlds was great, really a lot of their core franchises don't have the same cleaving effect that Brawl ended up having so I think it's really only relevant for Smash given how the core titles have worked out. Sure there's some odds and ends but for the most part their core franchises have a lot of carryover fundamentals and are usually stellar entries in of themselves that don't serve to push away the people it's marketed to. Entirely opinion but I think Nintendo as a whole is doing the best they've done for quite a while with their core stuff.

TL;DR it's mainly about Smash. Their system and how they're going about it is in general a good improvement and their core franchises are perfectly fine outside of Smash in the case of this inquiry. I think bringing in the console and peripherals and whatever serves to only muck it up and make it less about Smash than it should be.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

I certainly agree that Smash Bros could allow both competitive and casual to enjoy it.That is what many label as being a key aspect of a great game-both deep and accessible.
Personally,though,for me Smash 4 has done that.It's movement could stand to be a bit less limiting,yes,but it still has a good flow(in my opinion.)
And there are combos,and some characters,like Duck Hunt,seem almost made to be an incredibly deep fighter.

 

[Zoa]

As a former English major, do you want to put more emphasis on the Smash Bros. part, or do you want to divide up your grievances into separate parts with near equal exposure? I'm kind of confused. It would be really beneficial on your part to provide supporting examples so that NoA would be aware of the specific problems they have regarding the competitive community. Otherwise all NoA will notice is the lack of advanced tech and mechanics that favor defense. You may want to go into more depth, such as Sakurai's recent interview, and clarify several specific issues.

 

[trash?]

all I think I want out of nintendo is to acknowledge competitive mods can be a good thing if they handle it well

DOTA, starcraft, and CS all began their lives as humble mods made by people with a love for their competitive usage. why should we be so different?

 

[Vigilante]

As a former English major, do you want to put more emphasis on the Smash Bros. part, or do you want to divide up your grievances into separate parts with near equal exposure? I'm kind of confused. It would be really beneficial on your part to provide supporting examples so that NoA would be aware of the specific problems they have regarding the competitive community. Otherwise all NoA will notice is the lack of advanced tech and mechanics that favor defense. You may want to go into more depth, such as Sakurai's recent interview, and clarify several specific issues.

One thing we could do is get together as a collective and write up a comprehensive message. How about we brainstorm and then add our points into something that is easy to understand? I could do it, but my main language is French. Whoever wants to do it is fine.

 

[FreshNewspapers]

I agree with your points Vigilante! I really hope this works and we can stop this whole feud between competitive and casual players in smash.

 

[GrandHc]

all I think I want out of nintendo is to acknowledge competitive mods can be a good thing if they handle it well

DOTA, starcraft, and CS all began their lives as humble mods made by people with a love for their competitive usage. why should we be so different?

Well, in a time when competitive smash becomes more accepting, the issue I see is Nintendo appropriating Project M which very unlikely but which would cause community disarray between grassroots and official beliefs.

Overall, judging by the success of things such as ProjectRainfall and how Nintendo is at its most tentative towards its fans, if we can structure the Smash side of the argument in more of that manner, I think we can make some good head weight.

 

[Zoa]

One thing we could do is get together as a collective and write up a comprehensive message. How about we brainstorm and then add our points into something that is easy to understand? I could do it, but my main language is French. Whoever wants to do it is fine.

I'd be down for helping to compose the message. It'd give me a chance to put all my studies into practice again.

 

[Vigilante]

I'd be down for helping to compose the message. It'd give me a chance to put all my studies into practice again.

I'd be okay with this. I'll help clean up and add points to it if I see anything missing, then send it back at you, is that agreeable?

 

[Zoa]

I'd be okay with this. I'll help clean up and add points to it if I see anything missing, then send it back at you, is that agreeable?

Sure. I'll have time to check tonight after work.

 

[Zoa]

Okay. I'm off the next three days after a hellish weekend of number crunching. Do you have any other points to add to the letter so I can add them to it while proofreading?

@ Vigilante

 

[Smearglangelo]

Maybe encourage them to add new mechanics that appeal to the competitive players as an alternative to bringing back old ones. It stresses the point that we are willing to compromise and aren't against change.

 

[Paquito]

Anyway, Sakurai's and thus Nintendo's main concern in developing a complex Smash Bros. game is splintering the fan-base

I don't get why people keep assuming Nintendo's ridiculous claim here is true. Melee did not splinter the fan-base. i.e. Gameplay physics and input options that make for a strong competitive game do not detract from the casual experience.

Further, there are things that you can do, outside of nerfing the game's physics and input options, to keep both types of players happy. The "omega" versions of stages that Nintendo introduced in Sm4sh is a perfect example of that.

Anyhow, Nintendo is notorious for doing the exact opposite of what its critics say it should do, so even they notice this effort, it likely won't have the desired effect. Alternatively, has the Project M dev team considered just making their own fighting game based on these physics, but without Nintendo's IP? You could, like, sell it and get paid for your work

 

[Cubelarooso]

Personally, I feel Nintendo is a lost cause, and that our best course of action is to fully support and encourage other developers of platform fighters to show that there is demand for the genre outside of Smash.

If we can just get one fun, popular, competitive game out there that follows the Smash formula without the Smash branding, it would prove that such a thing is possible. That open the floodgates to more imitators and innovators, and give us as players a wider variety of choices in gamestyle.

 

[Smearglangelo]

Personally, I feel Nintendo is a lost cause, and that our best course of action is to fully support and encourage other developers of platform fighters to show that there is demand for the genre outside of Smash.

If we can just get one fun, popular, competitive game out there that follows the Smash formula without the Smash branding, it would prove that such a thing is possible. That open the floodgates to more imitators and innovators, and give us as players a wider variety of choices in gamestyle.

PSASBR went that route and it didn't turn out so well.

It seems to me that Nintendo has proven that they are the most capable company when it comes to Smash-like games. I want to encourage the continued growth of the Smash Brothers series, so excuse me if I'm taken aback by your anti-Nintendo attitude.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

PSASBR went that route and it didn't turn out so well.

It seems to me that Nintendo has proven that they are the most capable company when it comes to Smash-like games. I want to encourage the continued growth of the Smash Brothers series, so excuse me if I'm taken aback by your anti-Nintendo attitude.

Technically PSASBR was an attempt at a console crossover fighter, but it didn't really follow the same rules as Smash, so it's not really a Smash game.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I've never played PSASBR, but from what I hear it wasn't exactly fun or competitive, and we certainly didn't support it as much as we could.

I think the PMDT have shown themselves to be more capable than Nintendo without even being funded. And it's sort of a misleading title when there are so few big-name attempts at a Smash-like game, with most being knock-offs or fan-games.

Smash as a series doesn't need help growing; it's got the pedigree, icons, and money to maintain momentum far into the foreseeable future, and it has no reason to do so in most people's desired directions. What does need help is the platform-fighter genre - recovery-based ones in particular. The freedom of control used for a dynamic, competitive objective has limitless potential in a way that is unmatched by any other genre, yet it remains untapped because of Super Smash Brother's dominating presence. The only way we'll get more, new Smash-like experiences is if the genre grows beyond Smash, such that the term "Smash-like" becomes obsolete. The longer that takes, the harder it'll be.
I'm not anti-Nintendo, I just don't think we should count on it for everything. Imagine a world without Goldeneye, Half-Life, Halo or Metroid Prime because everyone's just waiting for Id to make them. Or no Mortal Kombat, Tekken, Guilty Gear or Smash because that's Capcom's department.

 

[GFooChombey]

I think it would be smart to wait until after Apex if you're putting Smash in the front of your message. I also think you should be very careful how you word this, because this can be traced here to our forum. Last thing you want is the big N thinking this is all the pmfanbase whining.

 

[Vigilante]

This is why we have tog et the this out there. There'sabsolutely no reaosnw e consumers can't be annoyed about how they behave toward us.

I have nothing to really add to the potential letter, but I think that all of the past advanced techs have to return... at the very least, Wavedashing, L-canceling and mroe hitlag as a bare minimum. Physics more similar to melee are a necessity for those who dislike floaty physics. The rest can be pretty much subject to change in my opinion. I think we have to be clear that qwe,re not asking for a game jsut for us, but a game that keeps us in mind.

I have to apologie for not answering recently, I started my new job and I couldn't come here.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The only people really dissatisfied are die hard Melee-like must be this or nothing else.

Overall and in sales, people love Smash 4.

 

[hype machine]

If smash 4 had melee physics, casuals wouldn't care at all. All casuals care about is content. Just add melee physics and mega man and you'll make both sides happy. Why cant Sakurai figure this out?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If smash 4 had melee physics, casuals wouldn't care at all. All casuals care about is content. Just add melee physics and mega man and you'll make both sides happy. Why can Sakurai figure this out?

Some would.

And moving backwards is not always progress.

 

[MegaMissingno]

The only people really dissatisfied are die hard Melee-like must be this or nothing else.

Nice generalizations. All I'm asking for is something that's a little faster, has more mobility, and is nowhere near as defensive as Smash 4. I don't care whether it's like Melee or not, I just want something that isn't like the current state of Smash 4. And I don't believe any of what I'm asking for would suddenly drive casual players away.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Some of it would and I know it would when I tried to host it over Brawl back in the day.

Casuals were far more likely to aim for Brawl even if some people hated it, a smaller majority.

If people legit think Smash 4 sucks, they aren't looking at it from all angles. It's really why it became my favorite game hands down.

 

[MegaMissingno]

What, you really think the complete lack of shieldstun is what makes it so popular with casuals, and that's utterly non-negotiable?

 

[JOE!]

Casuals go for what has more stuff as opposed to quality of stuff. If smash 4 were faster it would have sold just the same because mega man and Lucina are in

 

[Smearglangelo]

Smash 4 is fine just the way it is. You don't know if Smash 4 would have sold well with Melee's physics.

It's important that each game in the series has something unique so rehashing old mechanics is definitely not on the top of the list for whoever is developing the next Smash Brothers. We need to compromise and be open to the introduction of new mechanics.

I want to see more movement options in the next game, but that doesn't mean that wavedashing has to return. I never liked L-cancel and don't wish for it to return, but reduced landing lag might make everyone happy.

We all want to see positive change in the Smash Brothers series and if we all keep open minds we might be able to contribute to that change.

 

[Bleck]

some people should just get together and make a game that plays like Melee instead of expecting Nintendo to cater to a hilariously small group of people who want things out of a game that it was never meant to have to the detriment of the game itself

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

some people should just get together and make a game that plays like Melee instead of expecting Nintendo to cater to a hilariously small group of people who want things out of a game that it was never meant to have to the detriment of the game itself

Hmmmmmm
http://rivalsofaether.com/

 

[Bleck]

something a bit better looking than that, I think

 

[Cubelarooso]

That looks totally awesome, and is what we should really be supporting. The fact that I'd never heard of it before proves we hadn't done enough.

 

[Paquito]

something a bit better looking than that, I think

It's pretty hard to get the resources to make a game that looks as good as a Nintendo game when you're an indie-developer. You pretty much have to focus on making the game really fun to play to build a user-base, and if you do well enough, you can afford to do better graphics later. Compare screenshots of League of Legends on release to what it looks like today

Edit:
Here's their Smashboards thread.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What, you really think the complete lack of shieldstun is what makes it so popular with casuals, and that's utterly non-negotiable?

You think they like not grabbing the ledge backwards? Falling like a rock? The camera not following someone on stage when they are hit hard?

 

[JOE!]

You think they like not grabbing the ledge backwards? Falling like a rock? The camera not following someone on stage when they are hit hard?

Well that's a bit of a stretch.

Melee gameplay =/= every single thing from melee