Competitive Play for the Mii

[Reaperfan]

I'll admit, I'm new here so if this has been discussed and resolved before I apologize. However, having finally played around with the game enough to narrow down my favorite characters, it's...frustrating finding out that my main isn't allowed in tournament play.

Having read some threads on the subject, I'll admit I understand why they are banned. But having finally gotten confident enough in my skill to try and break into my local community tournament scene it feels rather alienating that I'm not allowed to use my main and I haven't even bothered looking for events anymore.

As I said, I understand that the height/weight can be an issue since it's a bit too subtle but with strong enough gameplay implications. But would it be too much to implement a standard to be used? Something like you can use a Mii as long as it's been set to exactly middle height and weight with all customs set to Special #1 (like with every other character). Heck, once the WiiU version comes out you could just have those three pre-loaded onto the game so you wouldn't have to "officially" watch them make the Mii or something.

However it works out, I don't like the idea that I'm basically not allowed in tournaments just because my natural playstyle gravitated toward this particular character. If the variation was gamebreakingly imbalanced (like with Equipment) I could understand, but right now it just seems like a very minor "we don't really get it so we're just not gonna bother with it" kind of ban that could be fairly easily regulated.

TL;DR: Please allow Miis in competitive play. I don't care if I have to use different specials and move at a slightly different speed. I can practice and adjust to those things. I just want to play

 

[Bearbuddy4]

When I heard that mii's were in the game some months back I was very unhappy, but im glad they can't be used online.

Its unfortunate that you like the mii's. I was always opposed to them tho.

You can however enjoy them alone or with some friends.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Out of curiousity, what is your local area? Miis and custom moves in general are allowed around here; you should just talk to the local TOs and explain to them the situation and how randomly banning three characters is really working against you.

 

[Reaperfan]

When I heard that mii's were in the game some months back I was very unhappy, but im glad they can't be used online.

Its unfortunate that you like the mii's. I was always opposed to them tho.

You can however enjoy them alone or with some friends.

To be honest, I didn't expect to enjoy them as much as I did. I was just as skeptical to their inclusion on their announcement as anyone else was. But I was just toying around with the whole cast going for the "Clear X with All Characters" Challenges to get a feel for everyone and something about the Gunner just stuck.

I just don't think it's fair that people who enjoy their playstyle have no real avenues of serious play available right now. "Alone or with friends only" doesn't exactly give me room to expand and get better at the game.

Out of curiousity, what is your local area? Miis and custom moves in general are allowed around here; you should just talk to the local TOs and explain to them the situation and how randomly banning three characters is really working against you.

Tulsa, Oklahoma. Unfortunately my word wouldn't hold much weight as I have only just recently become interested in expanding my Smash game beyond my personal circle of friends and I haven't integrated with the community in the area at all yet. I joined Smashboards looking for my local scene, but I've been having trouble tracking events down as everywhere I looked and asked, even in my area's thread over in the tournament subforums, I only saw groups/events forming/discussing/organizing things through Facebook, which I don't use for certain personal reasons.

Maybe we do allow them here, maybe we don't. The possibility that we might not kind of kills a good portion of my motivation to try looking for ways in, though. It's also rather annoying how I can't track down any serious gameplay videos of the characters for research, which I'll admit was more the spark that got me to start this thread more than anything else. Every other character has some pro somewhere using them, but the Mii's only ever have videos of casuals and friendly matches. Having no reference material to draw off of from better players and being limited to practicing by myself or in For "Fun" isn't exactly helping me improve either (which circles back to my initial desire to seek out my local community).

 

[Bearbuddy4]

I'm sure after the wii u version there might be more tourneys opened up, i bet there will be some that support miis. we'll see. dont lose hope , the main game isnt even out yet.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

TOs are people and are going to listen to a local player just talking to them about a situation especially if you're being reasonable (which you pretty much are). What most TOs want is to expand and protect their scene, and if they have tournament rules inhibiting that, they'll at least think about it. Even if you aren't a notable player, you have nothing to lose by trying, and since Miis are allowed in many places, any problems with this are local.

That being said, your bigger problem is clearly that you can't find these guys; negotiating the rules for Mii Fighters is clearly only possible if you have someone to talk to. I'm not familiar with the OK scene but do know it exists. I agree that Facebook is pretty much the worst thing ever, but it's very hard to avoid using it because so many of these groups insist upon using it to organize despite the fact that it does in fact make things very hard for people precisely like you. If you have personal issues related to Facebook, I suggest making an account with a fake name (they don't enfroce that rule) and using it only for smash stuff; that's what I do. The regional and tournament forums here should let you get in contact with someone who can clue you in to the details of how your local scene organizes itself, and once you know these guys, eveyrthing gets easier. In particular, try showing up to a smashfest and play people with your Mii; it will just be friendlies so no one will flip over it, and you'll be able to show through play your point in what you're going for.

Best of luck. I don't think I can do anything else for you really, but your situation has my sympathies.

 

[OddCrow]

I feel like the standard in the future for miis will be

present to your opponent a "1232" style list of what moves you are using (provided customs aren't legal)

miis height/weight must be full increments on the mii maker slider, so height of 1-7 and weight of 1-7, and also present this info to opponents

Also, every respectable tournament ought to have them legal imo

 

[popsofctown]

I don't think self respecting TO can ban default height, default weight, 1111 miis.

The TO can upload them to the wiis himself if he's worried they are slightly off defaults.

There's room for a more liberal attitude than that but average-average 1111 has to be allowed, there's just no excuse whatsoever there.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

How big a deal is the height and weight of the Miis? Some say it's game breaking, others say it's very subtle so I'm getting a lot of mixed signals. They're not my main but I like using them when I can and would love to use some of my favorites in tournaments. (Optimus Prime and Narutoph FTW)

 

[popsofctown]

How big a deal is the height and weight of the Miis? Some say it's game breaking, others say it's very subtle so I'm getting a lot of mixed signals. They're not my main but I like using them when I can and would love to use some of my favorites in tournaments. (Optimus Prime and Narutoph FTW)

Size dramatically alters hurtbox and hitbox sizes, at least on nonspecial moves. Weight affects aerial drift speed, run speed, walk speed, jump height and fall speed, and *attack after lag time*. Min weight miis uptilt is a true combo, I'm pretty sure some point as you ratchet the weight up that stops being true.
The difference between default height weight mii and min height/weight mii is probably about one tier in terms of power level.

The most legitimate reason to want to ban/restrict miis is that some people slightly tweak the weight and height from expected values just to f#%$ with people and that's an unfun inconsistent experience for the opponent that is having his kill %s, strings, and ranges slightly change. It's not about the power level of the change, but rather that someone could learn the matchup and learn to start doing risky upsmash at 130% but because of a tweak it could be 132% and that's frustrating (and to some extent, a guessing game). It's not that about being OP at 132%, it's about it changing at all. It's like playing a new PM patch EVERY GAME when someone f$%^s with you like that.

Default 1111 miis definitely don't fall into that category. min-min miis don't either, but there's enforcement issues with making sure a claimed min-min mii is actually min-min (or maxes, but only swordfighter seems to possibly have any interest in maxes and swordfighter is a pretty derp tier character)

 

[videogameprof]

wait. my sword mii is a max max. is that bad?

 

[_Magus_]

One solution to this problem could be to have Miis be allowed to be either max, mid, or min weight. No in-betweensies to mess people up. However, this could add an even greater level of complexity to TOs jobs, as they'd have put some system in place to check Miis and make sure they're one of the three legal weights.

On the one hand, banning them would save everyone a headache. On the other, it's banning not one but three characters that people enjoy playing. (Even more if you count the weight differences as different characters.)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Sorry but I don't think the weight means enough of a god damn to even be worth discussing.
Until someone shows that Max Weight Max Height is viable or desirable, in all likelihood Mii's will be operating around that 98-100 weight and never reach 101 or 102 in competitive play.
Discussing weight for the sake of your opponent. Mii communities already taking about Being Short for ideal strength. The Mii Meta already is starting to resolve around specific weights, changing the slider one notch isn't going to make any significant difference.

Might as well Ban Peach for her turnips.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Sorry but I don't think the weight means enough of a god damn to even be worth discussing.
Until someone shows that Max Weight Max Height is viable or desirable, in all likelihood Mii's will be operating around that 98-100 weight and never reach 101 or 102 in competitive play.
Discussing weight for the sake of your opponent. Mii communities already taking about Being Short for ideal strength. The Mii Meta already is starting to resolve around specific weights, changing the slider one notch isn't going to make any significant difference.

Might as well Ban Peach for her turnips.

I so want to believe this...

 

[DavemanCozy]

Miis are allowed in tourneys up here in Ontario as long as they meet the following conditions:

• They have default weight
• They have default height
• No equipment

In the Wii U tourneys, however, I think they will have to use their default moveset as well. Same goes for Palutena. I hope this is only a temporary thing until we've spent more time with the game.

 

[Zarxrax]

The most legitimate reason to want to ban/restrict miis is that some people slightly tweak the weight and height from expected values just to f#%$ with people and that's an unfun inconsistent experience for the opponent that is having his kill %s, strings, and ranges slightly change. It's not about the power level of the change, but rather that someone could learn the matchup and learn to start doing risky upsmash at 130% but because of a tweak it could be 132% and that's frustrating (and to some extent, a guessing game). It's not that about being OP at 132%, it's about it changing at all. It's like playing a new PM patch EVERY GAME when someone f$%^s with you like that.

This seems like nonsense. You already have a ton of other stuff that will make a lot more difference than the 2% that you give in your example, such as the rage effect, and whatever current interpretation of DI/vectoring exists. Not to mention that the blast zones are not the same in every stage anyways. All in all, there are WAY too many factors in play for a small difference in weight to make any major impact on expected behavior. No one is going to be able to know within 1-2% when they will be able to get a kill.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

wait. my sword mii is a max max. is that bad?

I believe the Swordsman is best at max size to increase the size of his sword, while Brawler and Gunner are best at min size because speed. (And Gunner presumably doesn't give a **** about small hitboxes because she's got a freaking gun.)

 

[Eji1700]

I seriously don't get how this is even an issue.

Step 1: No "i brought my mii" mii's allowed. **** that at a large gathering.
Step 2: TO loads 3 default mii's on the save. One sword, one gunner, one brawler. Default height default weight. Maybe give them obviously unique names.
Step 3: Players may ONLY pick from one of those 3 mii's.

Problem solved. No equipment. No weight height issues. All mii mains know what to practice with, all non mii mains know what to practice against.
If customs aren't allowed, 1111 them, MAYBE allow a specific set per player that cannot change, but again that seems awful for big tournies.
If customs are allowed...no issues.
If we want a middle ground, maybe allow the mii communities to pick 1 default variation that will be the tourney standard....actually no **** that. Slippery slope and why can't gannon mains do that and then why can't X do it just because he's high tier.

Either way, above set should be easy to implement, and perfectly fine.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

There should be zero reason to limit customs moves for Mii's or Paletuna.
Logistics are not an issue with these four characters. So the previous arguments for banning customs don't even hold water.
The only argument is balance.

Anyone want to argue Mii Swordsman, Gunner and Paletuna are overpowered?
Only argument for a broken custom I've even see is 1 inch Punch and even that is highly arguable. Even on top of that the man has 2 other Up specials.

I honestly don't understand these conversations. There are things in the *Base* game that have far more competitive significance, and there isn't a stress about it. It seems the Illusion of choice has allowed people to be silly.
Why do we ban stages? Some stages aren't competitive. Equipment isn't competitive.
What about inherent customs that you don't even have to farm for is noncompetitive? Not a damn thing.

Wtf does the Mii's potential difference of 4 weight due to competition compared to Peach pulling out different turnips? Especially when that 4 weight difference is probably 0-2 Weight of difference given competitive viability.

I'll make the Mii rule set right now.

1. If we have time for you to change Weight then sure, if we don't then you get the defaults.


It's not rocket science.

Done.

 

[Random4811]

To be honest, I didn't expect to enjoy them as much as I did. I was just as skeptical to their inclusion on their announcement as anyone else was. But I was just toying around with the whole cast going for the "Clear X with All Characters" Challenges to get a feel for everyone and something about the Gunner just stuck.

I just don't think it's fair that people who enjoy their playstyle have no real avenues of serious play available right now. "Alone or with friends only" doesn't exactly give me room to expand and get better at the game.



Tulsa, Oklahoma. Unfortunately my word wouldn't hold much weight as I have only just recently become interested in expanding my Smash game beyond my personal circle of friends and I haven't integrated with the community in the area at all yet. I joined Smashboards looking for my local scene, but I've been having trouble tracking events down as everywhere I looked and asked, even in my area's thread over in the tournament subforums, I only saw groups/events forming/discussing/organizing things through Facebook, which I don't use for certain personal reasons.

Maybe we do allow them here, maybe we don't. The possibility that we might not kind of kills a good portion of my motivation to try looking for ways in, though. It's also rather annoying how I can't track down any serious gameplay videos of the characters for research, which I'll admit was more the spark that got me to start this thread more than anything else. Every other character has some pro somewhere using them, but the Mii's only ever have videos of casuals and friendly matches. Having no reference material to draw off of from better players and being limited to practicing by myself or in For "Fun" isn't exactly helping me improve either (which circles back to my initial desire to seek out my local community).

Have you tried OTs?

 

[Random4811]

Miis are allowed in tourneys up here in Ontario as long as they meet the following conditions:

• They have default weight
• They have default height
• No equipment

In the Wii U tourneys, however, I think they will have to use their default moveset as well. Same goes for Palutena. I hope this is only a temporary thing until we've spent more time with the game.

Why would they have to use their defaults when they're all unlocked at base? And the TO providing the Wii to play on could grind the customs himself, so that all customs are unlocked for all characters with no issue.

 

[popsofctown]

Why would they have to use their defaults when they're all unlocked at base? And the TO providing the Wii to play on could grind the customs himself, so that all customs are unlocked for all characters with no issue.

Uh, do you naively think smash tournaments are run using one setup?

 

[DavemanCozy]

Why would they have to use their defaults when they're all unlocked at base? And the TO providing the Wii to play on could grind the customs himself, so that all customs are unlocked for all characters with no issue.

To keep strategies consistent among characters.

Also, you can't be seriously suggesting one human being spends all that time unlocking everything for ALL tournament Wii Us being used. That's absolutely absurd.

I'm sure customs will eventually be allowed once we've all had more time with the game. For now, it's fine to just play with the defaults.

This seems like nonsense. You already have a ton of other stuff that will make a lot more difference than the 2% that you give in your example, such as the rage effect, and whatever current interpretation of DI/vectoring exists. Not to mention that the blast zones are not the same in every stage anyways. All in all, there are WAY too many factors in play for a small difference in weight to make any major impact on expected behavior. No one is going to be able to know within 1-2% when they will be able to get a kill.

I guarantee you people will learn the percentages for being able to get KO's. People did it in Melee, where stages also had varying sizes and blast zones too: the KO percentages were different for every stage, but people still went into the game and learned them for each of those. And why wouldn't you? The earlier KO, the better.

Even minor differences are relevant.

 

[popsofctown]

Rage effect is public info and skilled players will calculate their kill percents with rage in mind.
Blast zone size is public info and skilled players will calculate their kill percents with blast zone size in mind.
The maximum possible effect of optimal DI is public info and skilled players will calculate their kill percents with optimal DI in mind.
Weight is hidden info and even a skilled player won't be able to calculate their kill percents precisely with it tweaked.

In a series where people are devoted enough to the game to perform technical combos that approach TAS appearances, it's quite an underestimate of the playerbase to think top players won't learn to make tight estimates of a function with just rage, victim weight, and blast zone size as the variables. (DI is not a variable, you always assume optimal DI because top players perform optimal DI about 95% of the time)

 

[SmashWolf]

Blame Nintendo for putting Mii's in Smash in the first place. You woulda been fine if they never did, and we would've had more actual content that could be used everywhere.

 

[Zarxrax]

In a series where people are devoted enough to the game to perform technical combos that approach TAS appearances, it's quite an underestimate of the playerbase to think top players won't learn to make tight estimates of a function with just rage, victim weight, and blast zone size as the variables. (DI is not a variable, you always assume optimal DI because top players perform optimal DI about 95% of the time)

So assuming top players are able to estimate all of this in their heads, whats stopping them from adding in another estimate based off the (visual) size of the mii character?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Uh, do you naively think smash tournaments are run using one setup?

The Mii's special moves are all unlocked from the moment you insert the disc, so no one has to worry about unlocking them ever.

In a series where people are devoted enough to the game to perform technical combos that approach TAS appearances, it's quite an underestimate of the playerbase to think top players won't learn to make tight estimates of a function with just rage, victim weight, and blast zone size as the variables. (DI is not a variable, you always assume optimal DI because top players perform optimal DI about 95% of the time)

By the same token, why can't players assume optimal Mii parameters (whatever they end up being) and if the opponent decides to be suboptimal for whatever reason then that's just gravy?

Or possibly more extreme, when calculating kill % against a Mii just assume max weight. Same thing happens, if they're less than max that's gravy and you can kill a bit earlier. Max size for avoiding hitboxes, min size for trying to aim, etc.

 

[popsofctown]

The Mii's special moves are all unlocked from the moment you insert the disc, so no one has to worry about unlocking them ever.

By the same token, why can't players assume optimal Mii parameters (whatever they end up being) and if the opponent decides to be suboptimal for whatever reason then that's just gravy?

Or possibly more extreme, when calculating kill % against a Mii just assume max weight. Same thing happens, if they're less than max that's gravy and you can kill a bit earlier. Max size for avoiding hitboxes, min size for trying to aim, etc.

If you assume optimal parameters and the mii parameters are -slightly- suboptimal, then you start risking kill moves 1% before they would actually kill.
If you assume slightly suboptimal parameter and they're actually optimal you delay your kill moves unnecessarily, which is not as bad but on top of that you're dealing with an actual optimal mii.

It's not "just gravy" if the mixup and confusion can create enough advantage to offset the difference from being optional. Which is possibly the case.

 

[ArticulateT]

The 'One Inch Punch' technique is likely the main cause for concern when it comes to the Miis, the Brawler specifically. It was mentioned a couple days ago in the Mii Implications thread that balancing is probably done with stats taken from For Glory, which the Miis cannot participate in, so their balancing would likely take a while.

I would say that by having the Miis in, but limiting them to the 1111 set is likely pushing people away from using them, since it deprives the character of its core appeal. It likely doesn't help that the new online tournament mode the Wii U version will have may banish the Miis too, since it's part of online play.

It is a shame, regardless, as any of the characters hold a level of viability to them, but their core principal of design is just as much of a problem as it is bonus. While I main the Mii Brawler, I do have Lucario as my fall back, though whether I'll get booed for that sort of thing in a tournament is another story.

 

[Zarxrax]

Also, Miis are typically bottom tier characters in just about every tier list I have seen. Now of course that could all drastically change in the future, but in all honestly, is having some factors vary by a few percent going to keep a TOP LEVEL player from being able to beat them fairly?

 

[ArticulateT]

Also, Miis are typically bottom tier characters in just about every tier list I have seen. Now of course that could all drastically change in the future, but in all honestly, is having some factors vary by a few percent going to keep a TOP LEVEL player from being able to beat them fairly?

I theorised a while back, based on the usage of characters on competitive streams, that the Mii's position at the bottom might be due to under use. At first, a lot of competitive smashers would avoid anything that adds variation to the game (so, customs, Miis, equipment, everything) for their own reasons (Some might feel it changes the metagame too drastically to it to remain balanced, others might have thought that acquiring the moves themselves was too much investment etc.)

Mii Brawler has some very decent recovery, and the Gunner has some excellent range and versatility in general, and as for the Sword... I haven't looked into him yet, but I'm sure there's something good about him somewhere.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If you assume slightly suboptimal parameter and they're actually optimal you delay your kill moves unnecessarily, which is not as bad but on top of that you're dealing with an actual optimal mii.

Why on earth would you assume suboptimal parameters in the first place though? That's my main question. If you play expecting to fight the best possible setup but the opponent is deviating from it, then...that's your advantage.

More broadly, I'm not sure just how much difference the small vs. large size makes a difference. (Except in weight where it's a range of, like, 4 and therefore I officially Don't Care Enough.) So from that, I'm unconvinced that all this fuss over Miis is necessary except to stop people wasting time making their own.

 

[popsofctown]

Assume might be too strong of language, but you could presume slightly suboptimal parameters that are based on a desire to mix you up and mess up your kill percents.

Do you know how dramatic it can be for characters with only one good kill move to stale their kill move on a failed kill before it's kill time?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Assume might be too strong of language, but you could presume slightly suboptimal parameters that are based on a desire to mix you up and mess up your kill percents.

Do you know how dramatic it can be for characters with only one good kill move to stale their kill move on a failed kill before it's kill time?

I likewise used some bad wording since "optimal" does in fact mean small for Brawler/Gunner. But what if for the purposes of collecting data on Miis, all kill % were based on max height/weight? Then there's nowhere for the numbers to go but down. If people wanted they could also familiarize themselves with the min height/weight parameters in order to learn the general range and, if they wanted, make some informed decisions and take a chance if they want to risk a kill move.

Also, honest question here. Suppose one uses a move that falls just shy of killing; I'm talking 1% too low. The exact same move is then used immediately again in the exact same position. Will the extra damage (and thus knockback) outweigh the staling effect or not?

 

[popsofctown]

I likewise used some bad wording since "optimal" does in fact mean small for Brawler/Gunner. But what if for the purposes of collecting data on Miis, all kill % were based on max height/weight? Then there's nowhere for the numbers to go but down. If people wanted they could also familiarize themselves with the min height/weight parameters in order to learn the general range and, if they wanted, make some informed decisions and take a chance if they want to risk a kill move.

Also, honest question here. Suppose one uses a move that falls just shy of killing; I'm talking 1% too low. The exact same move is then used immediately again in the exact same position. Will the extra damage (and thus knockback) outweigh the staling effect or not?

In Brawl it depended on the knockback growth of the move but the staling effect could absolutely outweight for throws and certain vertical kills.
Of course even if staling is nerfed this time around, you probably still narrow the positioning requirements for a move if you stale it which can be bad.

You're totally right that you can learn the general range and stuff and it's not that bad. It's more about the quality of life ease of dealing with characters with fixed weight rather than imbalance or unfairness from variable weight miis. And quality of life for the mii players not feeling obligated to tweak parameters to stay competitive.

btw, I posted something about miis in the ruleset thread if you're interested.

 

[Reaperfan]

The reason Miis are banned, to the best of my knowledge, is two-fold. First is that they are never consistent due to height/weight. Second is that the variables in height/weight are not easily gauged visually, meaning if you aren't at minimum or maximum height/weight your opponent will never have any idea exactly how heavy you are or how to space themselves. Even if you assume optimal Mii height/weight, if your opponent isn't using that exact setup then that knowledge will be off and potentially result in them making a suboptimal play.

My original suggestion was simply to create a universal standard for Mii sizes and weights. Since their variation is the issue, if we can set up exacts values for a Mii to lock in as a standard and make all other variations illegal in competitive play, then we can form a basis for what they can do and how they play around that, expanding into more height/weight variation as the game progresses and we learn more things. As it is, if they're banned completely until that point of better understanding they'll never even get their foot in the door in terms of competitive play (which would also drastically delay how long it takes until we actually reach that point).

As for the 1111 setup, that was another attempt to standardize things. The height/weight standardization was so they could become their own characters and fit into the roster (Peach weighs X and is X tall, Bowser weighs Y and is Y tall, Mii weighs Z and is Z tall, etc). Assuming they are treated as just another normal character in the roster, it only makes sense that they follow the rules of every other character. If a tournament doesn't allow custom moves, then that means every normal character will be playing with a Special Move layout of 1111. Assuming the Miis are treated by these same standards, that means they too are restricted to a 1111 loadout. And just like every other character, once special moves become legal in tournaments we can expand upon this at that point. But just like the last point, waiting until that point to make the character legal at all severely delays how long it takes for the character to even start being studied.

Tl:DR; Set a standard for height and weight so that Miis are able to at least set a foothold in competitive knowledge. Expand upon optimal height/weight customization options later, just like every other custom mechanic we have right now. If custom moves are illegal, every other character will play with a 1111 setup, so for the sake of consistency so should the Miis.

EDIT: Heck, if we're talking standardization, I even figured out how to make exact replicas of the placeholder Miis they use in the artwork (believe it or not there is actually some customization there, and they aren't just default faces). That way you don't have the bulkier costumes/hairstyles giving the illusion of having a bigger hitbox.

 

[B!squick]

I remember this being discussed before. Aren't there already default Miis that come with the game? Just pick between those. Problem solved. Sure, you don't get your custom move sets but until enough time has passed and custom move tournys become a thing you can worry about that then.

 

[Reaperfan]

I remember this being discussed before. Aren't there already default Miis that come with the game? Just pick between those. Problem solved. Sure, you don't get your custom move sets but until enough time has passed and custom move tournys become a thing you can worry about that then.

I can't speak for the WiiU version, but on the 3DS there are no default Miis. Picking the Mii character icon opens up the Mii customization window if there are no Miis saved to the system and forces you to make one before you can actually pick the character.

 

[Stilll Alive]

I think some way or another they would have to choose a set of customs on each mii that all players have to play with, because some of those customs as we know, are flawed

 

[Eji1700]

I can't speak for the WiiU version, but on the 3DS there are no default Miis. Picking the Mii character icon opens up the Mii customization window if there are no Miis saved to the system and forces you to make one before you can actually pick the character.

You can very easily make default mii's, and again, I see no reason why this is even a discussion. Require default height/weight(dead center). Done.

I theorised a while back, based on the usage of characters on competitive streams, that the Mii's position at the bottom might be due to under use. At first, a lot of competitive smashers would avoid anything that adds variation to the game (so, customs, Miis, equipment, everything) for their own reasons (Some might feel it changes the metagame too drastically to it to remain balanced, others might have thought that acquiring the moves themselves was too much investment etc.)

Mii Brawler has some very decent recovery, and the Gunner has some excellent range and versatility in general, and as for the Sword... I haven't looked into him yet, but I'm sure there's something good about him somewhere.

Yeah most of the competitive scene doesn't know **** about the mii's. There's more info out there now that some people are using them, but gunner/brawler are certainly better than bottom tier, at least if you allow customization. In 1111 setup....gunner could still be good, brawler suffers terribly as his 1 up B sucks, and he loses his chance to have his feint jump down b and piston punch up B, which are two of his best moves by far.

That said i've tried hard to see the use in sword, and he's frankly awful. He lacks the wall jump the other two mii's get, so his recovery is the worst by far, and his custom move set is full of "not real" options which are just terrible. He does have some interesting projectile pressure which can make him feel like link minus the bombs, but i've yet to ever feel like he was a "complete" character.