Spent a good 20 minutes making a post why Wario should be 3 stars. Sees him at 2 lumped with DDD and Roy. Why Gravy whhhyyy
Haha aside from that, its pretty good so far. Although I am curious as to why Dr Mario is also in 2 stars in comparison to regular Mario in 3.5, I'd argue their differences start to show in the other states -especially disadvantage- whereas they're fairly similar in the neutral. Unless I'm unaware of any vital difference between the two of them of course.
Also, I'd make the case for Cloud being in 4 stars. Charging limit whenever you can while having sizable disjoints that are quick both in the air and ground, and a projectile- which is fairly telegraphed but still a projectile regardless- is pretty significant when doing footsies.
If a character is at the far ends of a specific rank, that usually means that I have a good feeling that they can easily be moved up/down with enough supporting evidence. Also, I feel less confident for character placements in Rank 2 and below, so my thoughts can always change over time. As a matter of fact, Wario was one of the characters I had the most trouble placing, so he can easily move up.
After all, nothing is final on this list. And I am taking everyone's words into consideration.
For Wario himself, I purposely low-balled him on this list for now, to see if I can spark additional comments about his placement. I feel as though he could easily join the Rank 2.5ers. However, he has to play very reactively against characters that are Rank 2.5 and up. Against characters that are in Rank 2 and down, he doesn't have to worry about this issue as much. Hence his current placement. That being said, his aerial mobility and Chomp alone can definitely warrant a higher placement in the future.
As for Dr Mario, while he has just as much capability as a boxer as Mario does (it's even a bit better), what hurts him the most is his mobility. This makes catching his landing options easier to do, and overall makes him more predictable in regards to what he is going to do. Furthermore, his battles against disjointed attackers become more difficult this way, since he can't really space himself and dodge as effectively as Mario can, meaning that he is more likely to take a hit against these characters. He also lacks FLUDDs for disrupting opponents, and his Pills are easier to duck under as opposed to Mario's Fireballs. The lack of ground mobility also means that he can't dash in and grab the opponent as effectively as Mario, either. Overall, the lost of mobility really affects his neutral, even though he can be considered a better boxing character otherwise.
Cloud being in 4 Stars sounds fair. I can see him beating out the characters in Rank 3.5 fairly well.
Toon Link should probably be at 3.5 or maybe even 4. Bombs are really good and he has really solid mobility to make use of them while also having a small size, plus all of his other projectiles and Z-Air allow him to do very well in neutral.
Not sure about 4, but 3.5 sounds about right. His Neutral is more effective than Link's, though I am not sure about it being three ranks higher.
Robin probably around 2.5, maybe 3. Levin aerials and Arcfire to control space are nice, but his ground mobility and the endlag on Arcfire kills him here. He can run to or away fast enough, so usually he'll have to jump to get anywhere fast enough. If he Arcfires into the opponent's shield, they can roll in and punish the endlag.
I'd put Corrin as 3-3.5; he has a projectile, several long range attacks, and a good set of aerials. His mobility isn't great, but it's good enough.
Sounds good for both characters. I'll test them out, and the other characters mentioned thus far, soon enough.
I find there to be something very strange about this list, or at the very least how we're defining Neutral.
Look at the 2-star rankings and below. Who are some of the characters in it?
Wario. Game & Watch. Jigglypuff at HALF A STAR.
What do all of these characters have in common? They've got some of the best aerial movement in the game. Jigglypuff and Wario are two kings of aerial weaving, while G&W sports the best aerial DECELERATION in the game. Jiggs and Wario suffer from a lack of range and disjoints, and G&W has pretty bad landing lag, but I just feel like... no character that moves through the air THAT well should be relegated to such a poor neutral rating.
The "problem" that doesn't actually exist is that I think Smash players associate neutral with the constant pressing of buttons. Gotta get those safe fairs out. Gotta get that quick dtilt out. Gotta use my super fast jab. Some characters are not designed to be so "buttonsy" and I think these three fall into that category and shouldn't be judged too harshly that they have to be more careful with their attacks.
People lament Falco's neutral all the time for its lack of mobility despite his excellent pokes. These characters don't have good pokes for the most part, but they do have the mobility. From how people discuss Falco, it sounds like those strong tilts and aerials are nowhere near as important as how a character moves, but Jigglypuff, Wario, and G&W, who all excel at movement, are lower than him?
Personally I think Jigglypuff and G&W should at least be 2's if not higher, and Wario should at least be a 3.
To move on to the characters that haven't been ranked yet, I can't really say I'm anywhere close to an expert on any of them, but I do want to start up some discussion.
For Ryu, I think he has to be around a *** 1/2.
He has too many tools, too many possibilities and answers in neutral to be worse than average. At the same time, there are a handful of characters that are a pain for Ryu in neutral, but none that are so overwhelmingly awful that Ryu can't do a thing. He has a very complete neutral that just doesn't include any oppressive options (though the hitboxes on his aerials can sure feel that way sometimes!).
Lucario is a character that I think has to exist on a sliding scale because Aura directly affects his Neutral. It makes some attacks bigger, it makes everything have more shield stun (this crosses over into Advantage as well), and fighting a Lucario at 0% is different enough of an experience compared to fighting him at 150%.
I would therefore put Lucario as a **(*), with the extra * being the difference between no Aura and max Aura.
Funny enough, those are among the few characters that I am eyeing very carefully right now. Wario, G&W, Jigglypuff, and Peach in particular. Because of their specific traits, they all have to be played very reactively, which improves their effectiveness. However, playing super reactively is still a weakness, imo. Because it puts you at the mercy of your opponent's options, and what they might do. This problem becomes even more of an issue when the character in question lacks ways to pressure the opponent's shield effectively, or have a great projectile. Thankfully, those four characters do have something to help them out in that regard. Wario has Chomp retreating aerials, Peach has veggies and float, Jigglypuff has retreating aerials, and G&W has...Sausages? And Bucket for countering energy-based projectiles. Even so, they have less opportunities to make mistakes as opposed to other characters, they typically forgo things like dealing shield damage and getting damage off of lucky pokes in order to continue to ensure their safety, and none of them *really* have anything to threaten the opponent to approach them (Barring Peach if she gets really lucky with a Turnip Pull/Wario slowly charging his Waft). Furthermore, characters in Rank 2.5 or higher have tools to help them abuse these characters passive natures. For the Rank 2.5 characters: DK and Samus can be charging their Neutral Bs, Link has his multitude of projectiles, Falco has a projectile and a reflector, Bowser Jr has Mechakoopas, Shulk has the exact opposite of what those four characters have in terms of range, and lastly Bowser and Luigi also play a bit more reactively and thrive off of the opponent making a mistake with their huge rewards (DK also has Cargo Throw for this).
Eventually, super reactive characters are going to have to contest an opponent in order to win a match, especially if the opponent is controlling more of the stage. And against more skilled players, these types of characters are going to get diminishing returns, because the opponent can be just as reactive as you and are playing a character with options that are more threatening in more situations. The less mistakes that the opponent makes, the less chances these characters have in regards to winning the match. Because they rely on this tactic more than other characters do, to the point where it's basically a crutch for them. Therefore, while playing these characters reactively is the optimal choice in regards to their viability, it is still a weakness and not a strength. At least in my eyes, anyways. And it probably explains why you usually don't see these characters end up in higher tournament placements on average. Although Wario has been seen more than the other three, I believe.
HOWEVER, they do have their positive traits. Because of their reactive nature, they typically excel against opponents that don't know the matchup. Which can potentially elevate their strength much higher in contrast to other specific characters. All of them also have a flashy finishing move (Waft/Stitch Face or Bob-Omb or Saturn shieldbreak/Judgement #9/Rest) that can end a stock no matter what, despite most of them being luck-based. All of them have great mobility specs in the air, which not only improves their unpredictability, but also their recovery. And most have situational but useful normals on the ground, too. Along with other positive traits. So they should definitely not be overlooked, either.
As I've said, I will be keeping a close eye on these characters, as well as any other character that is more reactive in nature. Because their neutral games are typically more volatile than other characters, since they rely on the opponent making mistakes. So I will be watching and judging them very carefully in the future.
EDIT: In regards to Falco, I feel as though people undervalue him a little bit. His mobility is certainly an issue, but him having good CQC buttons help his overall defense up close. This makes him more reactive in nature, in a different way from the other four characters. Similar to Luigi, but with a different toolkit. That being said, you do raise a fair point about him. So I might lower him a bit in the future. I'll have to test and experiment with him more; eventually.
(IsaidsimilarthingsaboutDocinthissamepostsoitsonlyfairlol)
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Sounds good for Ryu. He is going to be a bit interesting to judge, but for now, Rank 3.5 sounds like a solid placement for him.
As for Lucario...yeah, he is going to be a pain to rate. I'll definitely have to do something different for him. He's going to be one of the last characters I add in regards to each of the rankings (barring maybe the Disadvantage State).
