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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    587

The_Bookworm

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Sheeesh. Lima with a dominating 3-0 victory over Glutonny.

Despite Glutonny having all of the Bayonetta experience with Bloom4Eva, even 3-0'ing him in the last set they played (Tera), he was unable to overcome Lima. Lima did say that he super studied the Glutto vs Bloom sets before coming into this top 8, but it also shows something that was also evident with SSB4 Bayo as well: you can be prepared for one Bayo, but each Bayo plays so differently that experience with one doesn't completely carry over to another Bayo.
 

NairWizard

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I’ve genuinely believed that Game and Watch is the best character in the game for over 6 months now and it’s been a big part of why I’m anti-Steve ban. I’m so glad that Miya is showing how good the character is.

I feel like I’m going to implode whenever people tell me that GnW loses to swords.

I always used to hear people complain about Kazuya and think, “but GnW does the same thing out of a safely disjointed aerial or any win in neutral.”
It’s basically Air Kazuya with a big disjoint — that’s so strong!
 
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True Blue Warrior

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I’ve genuinely believed that Game and Watch is the best character in the game for over 6 months now and it’s been a big part of why I’m anti-Steve ban. I’m so glad that Miya is showing how good the character is.
It would be funny if the narrative changed from “Steve is broken, his mains are carried and he needs to be banned” to “Mr Game & Watch is broken, his mains are carried and he needs to be banned”
 

Frihetsanka

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I've been thinking G&W is top 5 for a while and more and more people seem to be agreeing with that conclusion these days. I've also been thinking Corrin and Bayonetta are both top 30 for a while, and this tournament was good for both of them.

The next big tournament is LMMM, and it's a qualifier for Watch The Throne. Onin was really looking forward to this tournament, but since Steve is banned he probably won't attend. Neo is going, it will be interesting to see if he'll be able to pull another Super Smash Con 2023. I'd be cool to see Neo qualifying for the Watch The Throne spot, although there's going to be fierce competition. Some other potential candidates are Sonix, Zomba, Riddles, and MuteAce. The highest ranking person who wasn't already qualified will get the spot, so depending on where the other players end up it might be enough to, say, get 4th, or they'd have to win the tournament etc, we don't know yet.

All of the players voted in (Lui$, Kurama, WebbJP) were American, and Dabuz and Miya qualified at Super Smash Con. Two Mexicans (MkLeo and Sparg0), two Americans (Light and Tweek), two Japanese players (ProtoBanham and acola), and two Europeans (Bloom4Eva and Glutonny) were invited. This means there are currently 6 Americans, 3 Japanese players, 2 Mexicans, and 2 Europeans attending. I think it would be nice to see more Japanese players, and Neo is the strongest one attending (and he's a Corrin main and incredibly fun to watch), so I sure hope Neo makes it. It's going to be a competitive tournament.

I feel a bit bad for Onin though. This could've been a decent shot for him to qualify (he tried to get in through the voting phase but failed, and lost to Marss at SSC), and it's a tournament he was looking forward to anyways. It will be interesting to see what people think the "vibes" are once we're back to Steve-legal majors, after having two Steve-banned majors in a row.
 

NairWizard

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It would be funny if the narrative changed from “Steve is broken, his mains are carried and he needs to be banned” to “Mr Game & Watch is broken, his mains are carried and he needs to be banned”
A ban will never need to happen for such a character, but

Game and Watch has "free" matchups on some of the most common and dominant characters in the meta -- ROB, Roy, Mario, Pokemon Trainer, Snake, Fox.
Rarer top characters like Min Min and Pikachu also lose handily.
He also has excellent matchups against most of the lower-tiered cast and fully invalidates most of them. Heavies? No issue. Zoners? No issue? Rushdown? No issue.

For matchup strengths that strong (something not even Steve has), you usually trade a bunch of losing matchups (see: Ice Climbers), but Game and Watch doesn't even have many losing matchups. Swords are mostly even for him. It's kinda just Aegis that's clearly hard-losing.

He's also the absolute best secondary in the game.

And he has two different strong reps, unlike Pikachu, who has similarly strong theory.

Really strong case for a #1 showing
 
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The_Bookworm

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This is infuriating and I feel like will brutally stunt the community going forward if it stays.
Reposting from the news channel:
These guidelines definitely hurts, but I currently don't think this will be any killing blow or anything.
Locals and small regionals are very likely completely unaffected by this, but this definitely will hit majors hard.
The likely scenario imo is that TOs are either going to ignore it or going to find loopholes around these guidelines.
 

Sucumbio

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This is infuriating and I feel like will brutally stunt the community going forward if it stays.
I'm still trying to grasp the scope of this. No more than 200 participants offline, no more than 5k prize pool, TO can only organize up to 10k worth of events (so two if they both 5k events), no more trailers like the music video for rise n grind, Attendance fees can not be used for the prize pool, streaming can be monitized for no more than 10k dollars total, all limits annual... And no for profit tournaments at all. It's as if Nintendo is ashamed to be associated with professional gaming and those few people who would make a living off Smash.
 

Frihetsanka

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Apparently the 200 limit can be avoided by getting a license from Nintendo, so we could still see majors. Still, this is a huge blow to the community, I hope Nintendo reconsiders!
 

Hippieslayer

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Not to be racist but this has to be a case of japanese corpos being out of touch with reality again. This thing is too stupid to be anything else. They already screwed over ultimate immensely from the get go by giving it a joke of an online mode and inherent input delay in combination with a stupid buffering system along with a plethora of other small issues such as how -c-stick inputs effect aerial momentum- all in all making the game control way worse than it should, far worse than it's otherwise inferior predecessor, while also making online garbage both in terms of how its designed and in terms of responsiveness (which is already poor offline) thus hurting the appeal of online play which in turn negatively effects the potential of the game. And they've demonstrated time and time again that they are incapable of doing what is best not just for their fanbase but for themselves as well, demonstrating an inability to keep up with the times and grasp the present.


If they had a clue they would've improved their online mode because without going into too much detail it would be very easy to improve it in many ways. For instance let players switch characters without having to find a new person to play with. Keep idiots who use stupid rulesets in their own bracket where they can rot. Make it so that if you qualify for elite smash you don't lose your current opponent automatically. And you also should not be able to lose your elite smash status immediately, it should take at least three games, and losing it shouldn't make you lose your current opponent automatically either. Let people who match up and enjoy fighting each other do so for as long as they wish without running into stupid hindrances. As it is now you can match up with someone you like fighting and who has a good connection and then you get one game with them because you or them lose or gain elite smash. All of these things should have been there from the get go.


And they should've patched out their stupid double buffering system too, and if possible also fixed the input lag.

All in all Nintendo get away with so much **** because they make great games. They should not. They need to be publicly shamed and ridiculed for their bull****.
 
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Sucumbio

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Apparently the 200 limit can be avoided by getting a license from Nintendo, so we could still see majors. Still, this is a huge blow to the community, I hope Nintendo reconsiders!
I'm thinking "majors" will have to be done differently, like they'll have to be series of blocks and take place over several weekends instead of all in one weekend.

Q11. I want to organize a large tournament, with more than 300 Participants in an online tournament or more than 200 Participants in an in-person tournament. What should I do?

A11. Currently, we do not grant permission for individuals to organize tournaments with more than 300 Participants in an online tournament or more than 200 Participants in an in-person tournament. We appreciate your understanding. If you would like to organize a tournament that exceeds the cap, please consider dividing it into blocks, as described in Q12. If you want to host a tournament using Nintendo Games as an organization, such as a club, please apply through the link in Q14.
 

Rizen

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This happened a little while ago but no one's talked about it yet. Steve dominated The Big House 11, with a Steve vs Steve grand finals and double Steve team winning doubles. If there was any doubt Steve's the best character, it should be gone now. Granted the top players weren't there but still a lot of good people attended.
 

The_Bookworm

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This happened a little while ago but no one's talked about it yet. Steve dominated The Big House 11, with a Steve vs Steve grand finals and double Steve team winning doubles. If there was any doubt Steve's the best character, it should be gone now. Granted the top players weren't there but still a lot of good people attended.
Big House 11 is a super regional for the Ultimate side, as everyone within the top 30 aside from Onin (the tournament winner) dropped out of the tournament, so it is not really that notable of news.
 

Rizen

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Big House 11 is a super regional for the Ultimate side, as everyone within the top 30 aside from Onin (the tournament winner) dropped out of the tournament, so it is not really that notable of news.
Pocket won this Big House, beating Syrup in GFs, you're thinking of a different one. But, yeah, the top players weren't there. It does prove though that Steve has a ton of representation on all levels.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Pocket won this Big House, beating Syrup in GFs, you're thinking of a different one. But, yeah, the top players weren't there. It does prove though that Steve has a ton of representation on all levels.
Pocket is one of Onin's alternate tags.
 

NotLiquid

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Luminosity Makes Moves Miami is the big major of this weekend, but over in France another iteration of Cora Smash Cup was held which saw Raarchyor :ultsora: take the relatively stacked 257 person regional. Not a lot of people outside of the region know about the Moroccan France resident, with his first notable supermajor appearance being a 33rd place showing at Tera, but he had a dominant run during this tournament, not dropping a single game in Top 8 winners side. Most notable of that entire run was him double eliminating Glutonny in what was a back-to-back procession of 3-0 games.

I remember Glutonny playing a lot of Sora against Wario on stream a while back, I assume it was partially in research for this potential run-in. Glutonny has had some issues in the past with this MU, losing to Kameme before as well. Either way, a great performance by another hopeful up and comer.
 
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Cheryl~

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Raarchyor's performance this weekend is a great sign of things to come for Sora's meta if the playerbase continues to optimize his combo game and become consistent with it outside of the lab. He's a late-game monster waiting to happen and I am SO here for it.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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SHADIC'S run so far at LMMM is by far the best run we've seen of :ultcorrinf: since Leo's win at Delfino Maza last year. He's bare minimum getting 4th place with wins on Tilde, Rivers, Leo, Riddles, Zomba and Kola so far. I'm starting to think Corrin is the 3rd best FE character behind :ultroy: and :ultlucina: at this point. There's multiple top 50 Corrin players rn and the character has such oppressive advantage state, great ledgetrapping and excellent frame trapping. Recovery is pretty good now after the buffs and I don't think the disadvantage state for Corrin is that bad compared to like Byleth or Chrom.
 

The_Bookworm

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SHADIC'S run so far at LMMM is by far the best run we've seen of :ultcorrinf: since Leo's win at Delfino Maza last year. He's bare minimum getting 4th place with wins on Tilde, Rivers, Leo, Riddles, Zomba and Kola so far. I'm starting to think Corrin is the 3rd best FE character behind :ultroy: and :ultlucina: at this point. There's multiple top 50 Corrin players rn and the character has such oppressive advantage state, great ledgetrapping and excellent frame trapping. Recovery is pretty good now after the buffs and I don't think the disadvantage state for Corrin is that bad compared to like Byleth or Chrom.
To be fair, Corrin has been the #3 FE character for a long while now. The other FE characters aside from the above 3 hasn't been doing very well for a long time. Even Byleth, as MkLeo hasn't been performing nearly as well as he was in the previous years, doesn't bring out the character nearly as often, and he is the only player using him at a high level.

Speaking of his wins, the Zomba one particularly interested me, cause that came after Zomba defeated NEO's Corrin in dominant 3-0 fashion to eliminate him at 13th. So clearly there is a significant shift in playstyle between the top 2 Corrins in the world.
 
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NotLiquid

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There's something prescient about how the best players in Ultimate right now are those who rose up to prominence as wi-fi warriors and actively remain such. The quarantine era wasn't the suboptimal death knell of a community, it was the shape of things to come.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Corrin is a character I've been thinking relativitely highly of for a while now, I think she's a top 30 character and a strong anti-meta character for the current meta. Corrin likely goes even or wins vs several meta threats, such as Ness, Mario, Min Min, Mr. Game & Watch, Peach, Olimar, ROB, Sonic, Yoshi, Bayonetta, Cloud, Kazuya, Pac-Man, Steve, Wario. She does have some rough MUs, with Sheik and Snake likely being her hardest matchups (Neo ran into both ApolloKage, who he beat, and WebbJP, who he lost to 2-3).

I think there could be a case for Corrin being slightly stronger than Lucina in this meta. Corrin players are certainly doing better than Lucina players right now (no Lucina players, aside from ProtoBanham who also uses Min Min, do as well as Neo and SHADIC right now). Corrin also does better in several key MUs, most noticeably against Sonic, Steve, Min Min, ROB, Kazuya, Mr. Game & Watch, and Peach. Granted, Lucina does better versus a few notable MUs, like Snake, Fox, and Samus. Overall, I think Corrin and Lucina lose a similar amount of MUs, but the ones Corrin loses are generally not as common or meta-defining as the ones Lucina loses.

Both results and MU charts are flawed metrics, however. MU charts can be wrong (it's possible I'm underestimating Lucina or overestimating Corrin). Results can be misleading (if Neo/SHADIC played Lucina instead then perhaps Lucina would have better results than Corrin). What about theory? I think, in theory, Corrin might still be the better character. Corrin is what I would consider a "late meta" character, while Lucina is an "early meta" character. Lucina liked it when the game resolved more about a strong neutral game and winning neutral over and over and edgeguarding people who were uncomfortable with their recovery options. As the meta progressed we've seen a move towards a strong punish game, where one neutral win turns into 60-70%+ damage, and we've also seen that people have gotten better at mixing up their recoveries. Lucina tends to get a few hits and then try to push advantage state, while Corrin can true combo or string for lots of damage (see Neo and SHADIC).

Sheik being a bit more prominent in the meta as of late is a bit of an issue for Corrin though. Neo proved that it's still doable, he almost beat WebbJP, but it's an uphill battle for Corrin.

Overall I'm not really sure who is better between Lucina and Corrin. Lucina was the early meta character, while Corrin was mostly irrelevant until she got buffed in 2020, and she also struggled a bit after 2020 due to SHADIC being very young (13 years old at the time) and Neo not playing the game. In the past year or so SHADIC and Neo have been proving that Corrin is a high tier character who has the potential to be top 30.

Lucina was a character that many people used to believe was top tier. Over time the meta has gotten worse for her and the meta has changed in ways that made her worse, and people have gotten better at the game in ways that makes it harder for her to stand out. Her results have also dropped significantly. She also received some nerfs early on, although I don't think they were too bad. Still, I think Lucina, at this point in time, is probably a top 30 character. I think it's entirely possible that in the current meta Corrin is the better character, though it wouldn't be too surprising if it's still Lucina.
 

NotLiquid

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A CCI thread thought exercise for the day: what move is better, Kazuya's EWGF or Sora's NAir?
 
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NairWizard

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Mr. Game & Watch
Oh man, this matchup is not great for Corrin. It feels at least -1.

It's a winnable matchup, but I'd actually counterpick Game and Watch against Corrin pretty consistently on all stages.
It feels really hard. I got slaughtered by Monte in this MU so hard that I almost thought Corrin was bad.

For top-level evidence, Maister destroyed Neo at the pre-local and always beats SHADIC, Leo's only lost set to Maister is with Corrin, etc.
Miya puts this in +1 and Maister has it in 0.

Of all the swordies, I feel like Corrin does the worst in this MU.
 
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NairWizard

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A CCI thread thought exercise for the day: what move is better, Kazuya's EWGF or Sora's NAir?
EWGF easily. One of its best traits is how hard it makes Kazuya difficult to pressure in the corner or while he's on ledge since he can neutral getup into EWGF or something. Playing ledge against Kazuya feels like playing neutral. Sora's NAir doesn't really do the same. Sora also commits to a floaty jump to get the n-air going.

Game and Watch n-air is better than both though. GnW n-air gets kills even when you hit with the tip of the disjoint. Of course, GnW n-air 0 to deaths have a higher skill gate -- Sora and Kazuya just require good execution to get 0 to deaths. GnW requires fundamentally strong advantage state skills and reaction time, so not everyone can do the GnW 0 to deaths.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Oh man, this matchup is not great for Corrin. It feels at least -1.
Hmm, you think so? Neo put it as 60:40 in his January MU chart, Ly put it as winning in his 2022 MU chart, SHADIC put it as Even in his February MU chart, Maister put it as Even in his June MU chart, in the Neo+SHADIC MU chart from June they put it as Even, and when Ly and Neo made one together in September they put it as Slight advantage. So Even or Slight advantage seemed likely to me.

EWGF is better than Sora's nair.
 

NairWizard

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Yeah, all the Corrins are weighing theory pretty highly but the theory doesn’t line up with what happens in practice.

The misalignment of theory and practice comes from the natural bias of players to overrate neutral spacing.

This happens a lot. Let me put it this way, by considering an extreme.

Let’s say that you’ve got 99% chance to win a particular neutral interaction. When you win, you deal 1%. When you lose, you take 100%.
The expected value of this interaction over hundreds of interactions is actually -1 — you’re losing it more than you’re winning it.

But most players will just assume that it’s favorable because 99% feels like a lot.

This situation is an extreme, of course, and Corrin does a lot more than 1% when she hits Game and Watch. But I think assuming that you can space out GnW in this matchup and win is wrong.

I have gotten up-bed for d-tilting him and died from a ledgetrap at 0.

I might be wrong, but I hate this matchup with the furious intensity of a burning space station on Venus
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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On the discussion of Sora Nair, Mr. R thinks it's better then EWGF and only worse then Steve-up tilt as a combo starter

Anyway, results for LMMM

1. Sparg0 :ultmythra: :ultcloud:
2. Sonix :ultsonic:
3. Dabuz :ultrosalina: :ultminmin
4. SHADIC :ultcorrinf:
5. MuteAce :ultpeach:
5. Kola :ultroy:
7. Maister :ultgnw:
7. Zomba :ultrob:
9. Tweek :ultdiddy:
9. Riddles :ultkazuya: :ult_terry:
9. Kurama :ultmario:
9. WebbJP :ultsheik:
13. Neo :ultcorrinf:
13. MkLeo :ultjoker: :ultmythra: :ultmarth: :ultbyleth:
13. ApolloKage :ultsnake:
13. Anathema :ultrob:
17. Luis :ultpalutena:
17. Tavares :ultmario:
17. BeastModePaul :ulthero: :ultsephiroth:
17. Rivers :ultdiddy:
17. Atreus :ultpalutena:
17. Aaron :ultdiddy:
17. Quidd :ultpokemontrainerf:
17. Epic_Gabriel :ultrob:
25. Wrath :ultsonic:
25. GuyGuy :ultluigi: :ultgreninja:
25. Yuno (Chase) :ultpalutena: :ultmythra:
25. Justice :ultminmin
25. Psysilex :ultness:
25. Light :ultfox:
25. MKBigBoss :ultrob:
25. Guilhewww :ultkirby:
 
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Rizen

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On the discussion of Sora Nair, Mr. R thinks it's better then EWGF and only worse then Steve-up tilt as a combo starter

Anyway, results for LMMM

1. Sparg0 :ultmythra: :ultcloud:
2. Sonix :ultsonic:
3. Dabuz :ultrosalina: :ultminmin
4. SHADIC :ultcorrinf:
5. MuteAce :ultpeach:
5. Kola :ultroy:
7. Maister :ultgnw:
7. Zomba :ultrob:
9. Tweek :ultdiddy:
9. Riddles :ultkazuya: :ult_terry:
9. Kurama :ultmario:
9. WebbJP :ultsheik:
13. Neo :ultcorrinf:
13. MkLeo :ultjoker: :ultmythra: :ultmarth: :ultbyleth:
13. ApolloKage :ultsnake:
13. Anathema :ultrob:
17. Luis :ultpalutena:
17. Tavares :ultmario:
17. BeastModePaul :ulthero: :ultsephiroth:
17. Rivers :ultdiddy:
17. Atreus :ultpalutena:
17. Aaron :ultdiddy:
17. Quidd :ultpokemontrainerf:
17. Epic_Gabriel :ultrob:
25. Wrath :ultsonic:
25. GuyGuy :ultluigi: :ultgreninja:
25. Yuno (Chase) :ultpalutena: :ultmythra:
25. Justice :ultminmin
25. Psysilex :ultness:
25. Light :ultfox:
25. MKBigBoss :ultrob:
25. Guilhewww :ultkirby:
Kazuya's EWGF is better; it's invulnerable frames 1-8 and starts on 8 then combos into a Usmash. The big down side is all the inputs you have to press prior to it. If this was just a button it would be the best confirm in the game. As far as Sora's Nair goes, it's good but there are a lot of similar confirms among the cast. Young Link's Fair and Bair do the same thing.

Some takeaways from the results of LMMM (and other tournaments):
Once again, USA players fall short of other international players. As long as Spargo, Gluttony, Acola and Miya are around players like Tweek, Light and Zomba aren't going to cut it. :( Aegis is still very alive and well. They're not dropping off and never have. Sonic has proven through several players that he is a top tier. It's not just Sonix but also Wrath, Ken and others. Dabuz and Mute Ace are proving they can stack up with Light and Tweek. Corrin is a high tier. Kazuya is good but he's not winning tournaments. The calls for a ban on him do not reflect him being a dominant force in the Meta. Miya>Maester for best G&W. MKLeo's not the tournament terror he once was and probably isn't even top 5. ROB's still top tier. The Links continue to not preform well. It's been proven time after time that it's better to be great with a sword than great with projectiles.
 

NotLiquid

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Kazuya's EWGF is better; it's invulnerable frames 1-8 and starts on 8 then combos into a Usmash. The big down side is all the inputs you have to press prior to it. If this was just a button it would be the best confirm in the game. As far as Sora's Nair goes, it's good but there are a lot of similar confirms among the cast. Young Link's Fair and Bair do the same thing.
I don't think YL's FAir and BAir are comparable to Sora's NAir at all. The reason Sora NAir and EWGF are being compared isn't just because they're safe hit confirms into KO moves but because at an optimized level they open up massively damaging strings at worst and 0-to-deaths at best.


This is basically the kind of stuff people are starting to have to deal with now; it's not just Kameme doing it once a set anymore, and it'll only get more optimized including on characters that aren't easier targets like Wario. His NAir is one of a kind, even if EWGF is arguably superior.
 
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Rizen

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I don't think YL's FAir and BAir are comparable to Sora's NAir at all. The reason Sora NAir and EWGF are being compared isn't just because they're safe hit confirms into KO moves but because at an optimized level they open up massively damaging strings at worst and 0-to-deaths at best.


This is basically the kind of stuff people are starting to have to deal with now; it's not just Kameme doing it once a set anymore, and it'll only get more optimized including on characters that aren't easier targets like Wario.
:ultyounglink: can Fair 1>Dtilt>jump>upB as a true combo and get some pretty good damage. Fair 1 also combos into smashes. The reason why you don't see YL Fair 1>Fsmash is it only works on large characters. Fsmash steps forward and the second hit will wiff if YL starts too close to the opponent. Fair 1 and Bair 1 are interchangeable in terms of combos.
 

NairWizard

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Byleth? Why? Joker is a +1 MU free.

I have no idea what Leo is doing any more. You can't just main half the roster and expect results.
 

L9999

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Byleth? Why? Joker is a +1 MU free.

I have no idea what Leo is doing any more. You can't just main half the roster and expect results.
He's trying to be Rizeasu or something. Though you would think that with a wide array of proven characters at tournament he would use them to counterpick like Banham, but he doesn't seem interested in that, rather just play who he feels like it. Like how he loses so much to Mario these days, during his Aegis phase he defeated pretty much every competent Mario.
 

Frihetsanka

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Speaking of "Corrin might be better than Lucina", Japanese top Snake Hurt made a tier list:

I've noticed that many Japanese tier lists tend to be very different from most European and North American tier lists in some aspects. Yoshi and Diddy Kong seem to be viewed more highly over there, Pikachu considered a low high tier or a mid tier?

Some notable placements: Yoshi and Diddy Kong top 10, Ryu, Pit, and Falco top 20, Sephiroth, Palutena, Wolf, Captain Falcon, Kazuya in top 30, Pac-Man, Lucina, Pokémon Trainer top 40, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu top 50, Byleth, Mega Man top 60.

G&W being top 5 seems to be a decently common opinion right now. Hurt putting Snake in top 5 is not too surprising, I think it's plausible that Snake could be that good.

Personally I don't think the difference between Corrin and Lucina is that big, I think they're fairly close to each other, but Corrin is certainly getting much better results right now, so if you base it on results Corrin does better. ESAM thinks Lucina is better than Corrin though, and in NA and Europe that's probably the more common opinion right now, although I've seen a few Japanese tier lists that list Corrin higher than Lucina lately.
 
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