Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Rizen]

Ultimately I blame nintendo more than panda. Nintendo has done some *****y things but this really takes the cake.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Ultimately I blame nintendo more than panda. Nintendo has done some *****y things but this really takes the cake.

Nintendo wouldn't have done much of anything and were accepting of the SWT if it wasn't for Alan's greedy nature and attempting to monopolise everything in Smash to be part of the Panda Cup.

It's mostly Panda's fault, though Nintendo's done horrible stuff in the past before, this isn't 100% them this time. It feels more like 30% Nintendo 70% Panda.

 

[Arthur97]

"Horrible" might be a bit hyperbolic, but I'm still on the whole this Alan guy managed to get that kind of leverage on a company infamous for kinda just doing whatever they want.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Dallas is continuing with the Steve bans, giving more time to the whole thing to see if there are any big changes in viewership

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Frihetsanka]

It is unclear exactly what has happened, but one thing is abundantly clear: Current copyright law is atrocious. Nintendo should not be able to legally shut down tournaments like this... And yet, due to the way copyright law is currently written, they can. Atrocious.

Dallas is continuing with the Steve bans, giving more time to the whole thing to see if there are any big changes in viewership

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Seems they're really trying to get yonni to quit the game, huh? So the one month "experiment" continues, I'm starting to think they might just have a poor mentality. I'm glad I don't live in that region.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if yonni quits over this.

 

[Sucumbio]

I'm worried about the implications this has for the future of tournament streaming.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm worried about the implications this has for the future of tournament streaming.

It is concerning, for sure. If Nintendo tries to shut down all non-licensed majors then the competitive future looks bleak... Especially since the community is understandably upset with Panda right now.

 

[Arthur97]

On the other hand, it's people making money on something they don't own.

Edit: Okay, maybe they don't make a profit, but even if there is no profit, money is being charged and given out.

 

[Frihetsanka]

On the other hand, it's people making money on something they don't own.

This isn't even true though? From what I've heard, Smash tournaments generally lose money. Though regardless, they bought the game, they paid money for it, and they're playing the game. I'm saying the law should be changed, this is not 1995 or whatever anymore, the law should be updated to reflect on how the Internet has evolved. It's not like Nintendo is hurt by people hosting tournaments for their games, I'd say it's the other way around. It's a bit off-topic though, but Nintendo should not be legally able to shut down tournaments like this (though they evidently are, and shouldn't do it). I don't think this benefits Nintendo at all, but Nintendo seems to be the kind of company that really wants to be in control, even if it means alienating a large percentage of the community.

 

[Arthur97]

This isn't even true though? From what I've heard, Smash tournaments generally lose money. Though regardless, they bought the game, they paid money for it, and they're playing the game. I'm saying the law should be changed, this is not 1995 or whatever anymore, the law should be updated to reflect on how the Internet has evolved. It's not like Nintendo is hurt by people hosting tournaments for their games, I'd say it's the other way around. It's a bit off-topic though, but Nintendo should not be legally able to shut down tournaments like this (though they evidently are, and shouldn't do it). I don't think this benefits Nintendo at all, but Nintendo seems to be the kind of company that really wants to be in control, even if it means alienating a large percentage of the community.

Ultimate sold millions. Thousands go to tournaments potentially at most. Few thousand more may watch them somewhat regularly, but it's still a minority of their consumer base. So, even if it is a large part of the competitive community, it is likely not that large of a group in comparison to total sales. People can talk about how they alienate fans all they want, but it seems to be working for them. Controversies come and go, but it rarely if ever seems to seriously impact them. Fact seems to be, not that many people seem to care. At least not enough to not buy.

And buying a game doesn't give you rights to the IP. Now, there is the issue of it will hurt with sunk costs and whatnot, but at the same time, if you're working with IP that isn't yours and the owners are notoriously protective, continued use is not certain apparently. Even if the events lose money, money is exchanged. You can argue if they should do it, but as IP holders, why shouldn't they have some authority over how it's used on large scales with money involved?

And, yes, then you have the argument of streamers, but once you start making money with someone else's property, you may find yourself at the owner's whims. You can debate if they should or should not do something, but as property owners, shouldn't they have a right to have the option to step in when it's being used on an international stage? When you've got ads/sponsorships running on the tourneys and streams?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

This...has me just as concerned, there are still other tourneys but how many times will this happen?

 

[Eremurus]

This...has me just as concerned, there are still other tourneys but how many times will this happen?

They could technically shut down every single event that is not licensed. Will they do that for locals and such? No, but they might for larger scale majors. Who knows what is going to happen. Nintendo also essentially said "the days of streaming tournaments without a license is over."

 

[Nah]

And buying a game doesn't give you rights to the IP. Now, there is the issue of it will hurt with sunk costs and whatnot, but at the same time, if you're working with IP that isn't yours and the owners are notoriously protective, continued use is not certain apparently. Even if the events lose money, money is exchanged. You can argue if they should do it, but as IP holders, why shouldn't they have some authority over how it's used on large scales with money involved?

And, yes, then you have the argument of streamers, but once you start making money with someone else's property, you may find yourself at the owner's whims. You can debate if they should or should not do something, but as property owners, shouldn't they have a right to have the option to step in when it's being used on an international stage? When you've got ads/sponsorships running on the tourneys and streams?

The money exchanged via streaming and tournaments, even majors, is chump change compared to what Nintendo rakes in. They are not being hurt by tourneys and streams, and they have nothing to gain by engaging in this sort of behavior that they have for years. What is legal and what is right don't always line up.

And we're talking about a tournament circuit that was trying its best to become officially licensed by Nintendo itself before Nintendo seemed to suddenly decide to change course.

 

[Sucumbio]

Spoiler: Full Statement by Nintendo

Nintendo would like to explain to all Super Smash Bros. fans and interested parties the background and rationale related to our decision to not grant a license to the Smash World Tour (SWT) for their upcoming activities.

Nintendo’s decision was solely based on our assessment of the proposals submitted by the SWT and our evaluation of their unlicensed activities. This decision was not influenced by any external parties such as Panda Global. Any partner that we grant a license to has to meet the high standards we require when it comes to the health and safety of our fans. It’s also important that a partner adheres to brand and IP guidelines and conducts itself according to professional and organizational best practices. We use this same approach to independently assess all partners. If we discover that a partner is doing something inappropriate, we will work to correct it.

When we notified the SWT that we would not license their 2022 or 2023 activities, we also let them know verbally that we were not requiring they cancel the 2022 finals event because of the impact it would have on players. Thus, the decision to cancel the SWT 2022 was, and still is, their own choice.

We are open to partnering with other organizations and will continue to offer licenses for major tournaments outside of the Panda Cup. Panda Global will continue to be a key partner and we look forward to receiving proposals from other groups for tournament licenses. In the meantime, Panda continues to advocate on behalf of the Super Smash Bros. community, even to the point that Panda has advocated for other organizations and tournaments to work with Nintendo, such as The Big House and the organizers of the SWT to benefit the larger Super Smash Bros. community.

Nintendo cares about Super Smash Bros. fans and its community very much, and we hope to continue to hear their passionate feedback. We are committed to working hard to bring joy and fun to the community through tournaments while also ensuring we and our partners are operating in a manner that is positive and responsible.

I suspect SWT "found out" as it were and tried to get in front of it by throwing Panda under the bus. There's probably plenty of blame to go around but at this point it seems there was more to this story than just Panda sabotaging SWT.

 

[Frihetsanka]

A short response to Nintendo's official statement: https://t.co/Cr4xfE1U1U

— Smash World Tour 2022 (@SmashWorldTour) December 2, 2022

SWT's explanation makes more sense than Nintendo's, and we've yet to hear from Panda. I don't think SWT would cancel their own tour if they weren't pressured to do so. I don't know what this means for the future of unlicensed majors, it sure does seem like Nintendo wants people to apply for their licenses, and seems they've already say they're going to decline any licenses for SWT in 2023, despite SWT actively trying to apply for a license... So the licensing system seems problematic.

 

[Sucumbio]

pic.twitter.com/KmCiKddaqh

— Panda (@PandaGlobal) December 2, 2022

Welp. Guess everyone has had their say. And yet we still don't know what really happened. There's some who think it's because VGBC didn't provide a "safe" environment for their events, and something about Nairo, but I can't corroborate it.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Panda's statement really doesn't say anything of substance. No resignation of Dr. Alan, admits to wrongdoing only in one interaction with BTS, denies other allegations, hides behind Nintendo. I think this is the end. https://t.co/0JVP8A3NyX

— Andrew Nestico (@PracticalTAS) December 2, 2022

I don't think Panda will be able to recover from this. If they wanted to have a shot they probably should've said more of substance and gotten rid of Alan. Seems they did neither.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Ludwig's doing his own SWT with blackjack and hookers

In light of Panda/Nintendos lackluster response I’m happy to announce

🎉The Scuffed World Tour🎉

A one day melee/ultimate event

Sunday 11/18

Featuring the 8 highest placing SWT competitors

All with the goal to raise money for VGBC

See you there :)

— ludwig (@LudwigAhgren) December 2, 2022

Oh, and almost everyone who was sponsored with Panda or worked with Panda is now leaving.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm glad to see that the community is (mostly) united in this. A split between pro-Panda and anti-Panda could've been devastating, but it does seem to me that the majority is pro-VGBC and anti-Panda (which makes sense, given what we know right now that the leadership of Panda has done). I hope the ex-Panda employees/players etc. will find success moving forwards, and that the Smash community can still persevere despite these troubling times.

I do wonder how Nintendo will react. Nintendo seems to still think being allied with Panda is the right way forward, but given that the Smash community has largely abandoned Panda, I wonder if Nintendo will reconsider? Or will Nintendo try to shut down non-Panda tournaments in order to cement Panda as the ruler of the Smash community? I don't think that would work out well for competitive Smash, so I hope they won't do that, but you never know with Nintendo...

The Scuffed World Tour is competing with the Panda Cup (same day), something tells me Ludwig's tournament will be far more competitive. Many of the top players have already confirmed that they're going. acola tweeted that he'd be happy if this tournament happened (soft confirmation?), Gluto retweeted (soft confirmation?), Riddles retweeted, MkLeo, Sonix, Onin, Light, Dabuz confirmed that they're going, so it looks like all of top 8 for Ultimate will be attending, most likely. Hype!

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Top 16 of Mainstage
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/zc2eeu

 

[Frihetsanka]

Some notable results:
yonni out at 65th, and he thinks not being able to practice Steve at his locals was part of the reason. Desmona getting some big upsets, being yet another WiFi warrior (and ranked #1 in Wisconsin) that is starting to get results offline, with wins over Riddles, Zinoto, and Asimo. Can he keep going?

Onin losing to Maister, shockingly crafting Diamond at 156.8% and dying right after when Maister was at 82.3%. I can't help but think that if Onin had kept the diamond and crafted it on his last stock the game might've gone differently. On his last stock, Onin was too focused on getting Diamond, which meant Maister could pressure him and rack up damage and eventually killing him before Onin could even craft Diamond. Sometimes crafting diamond at high % can be the right choice, but at 156.8%? Seems a tad too risky, in my opinion. Nice for Maister to get a win on Onin, though.

enhancedpv was playing really well against the Steves, beating yonni and taking Onin to game 5. Part of it is probably that it's Cloud, but part of it is because enhancedpv is a really good player. Another WiFi warrior.

Though, to be fair, covid basically forced many people to become WiFi warrior. It's not too strange that many 16 year olds would emerge after the online era as great players, without covid we would've seen them more offline before they popped off. Some people may say it's a Steve thing but it's mostly just a "young players who weren't established before covid became good during the online era"

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Top 64 character representation at Mainstage 2022 (Mains only)

 

[The_Bookworm]

Mainstage 2022 Top 8

Winner's
Big D vs ApolloKage
Tweek vs Sparg0

Loser's
Kurama vs Desmona
Lui$ vs Light


This top 8 looks pretty funny. In the winner's side, one half of it is a duel between two of the all time greatest players in Ultimate, and the other half is Ice Climbers vs Snake.

 

[Rizen]

Mainstage 2022 Top 8

Winner's
Big D vs ApolloKage
Tweek vs Sparg0

Loser's
Kurama vs Desmona
Lui$ vs Light


This top 8 looks pretty funny. In the winner's side, one half of it is a duel between two of the all time greatest players in Ultimate, and the other half is Ice Climbers vs Snake.

ICs vs Snake, what is this, Brawl?!

 

[Ziodyne 21]

That Kurama vs Desmond's set. I have not seen a player so effectively shut down Steve since MKLeo and using a character you think did have the tools to shut Steve down.Then Again Kurama did not quite "shut down" Desmonda as much as just deleting stocks of single confirms before they could even start much

Big D and Kurama now qualify for Smash Summit after their breakout performances at Ludwig Invitational. Showing that those were noy flukes and they are players on the rise

 

[superjm]

Big D takes out ApolloKage's Snake 3-1, including finishing the set with a clutch SoPo finish.

I think the commentators put it best. "We always knew Ice Climbers were inevitable."

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Mainstage 2022

1. Sparg0
2. Tweek
3. Big D
4. Light
5. Kurama
5. ApolloKage
7. Desmona
7. Lui$
9. Maister
9. Ouch!?
9. Chag
9. Onin
13. Kola
13. Shuton
13. Chase
13. Tea
17. Shaveh
17. Riddles
17. Asimo
17. Monte
17. MVD
17. Chronos
17. enhancedpv
17. Cosmos

Also the top 4 for this year have been set

Weekend recap coming soon. With Mainstage, the top four this year are like set: MKLeo/Acola/Spargo/Light (possibly in that order,) but the fight for 5th has turned into a free for all with Riddles, Shuton, and Tea not doing as well this event.

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) December 5, 2022

 

[Frihetsanka]

pic.twitter.com/Y7xbon04YN

— Panda (@PandaGlobal) December 5, 2022

With Alan gone, can Panda be saved? From what I've heard Alan was the main issue with Panda, and if he's no longer CEO then perhaps the organization could still be used for good?

And the Panda Cup Finale is postponed, which isn't too surprising. If Panda manages to rebuild their brand to some extent there might be a chance of the Panda Cup Finale being somewhat hype after all.

 

[Rocketjay8]

pic.twitter.com/Y7xbon04YN

— Panda (@PandaGlobal) December 5, 2022

With Alan gone, can Panda be saved? From what I've heard Alan was the main issue with Panda, and if he's no longer CEO then perhaps the organization could still be used for good?

And the Panda Cup Finale is postponed, which isn't too surprising. If Panda manages to rebuild their brand to some extent there might be a chance of the Panda Cup Finale being somewhat hype after all.

Unless Alan sells his shares in the company, he still owns it. I would 100% not trust Panda since he could be calling the shots behind the scene.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Unless Alan sells his shares in the company, he still owns it. I would 100% not trust Panda since he could be calling the shots behind the scene.

Yeah, that might be the case. This is a bit concerning as well:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So Panda is likely still toast?

 

[blackghost]

Yeah, that might be the case. This is a bit concerning as well:

I've stepped down as CEO of Panda to protect the safety and wellbeing of the team.

My statement (with evidence) is coming. pic.twitter.com/LkousPo183

— Alan (@DrAlanB) December 5, 2022

So Panda is likely still toast?

depends on evidence presented. at the very least the name Panda is dead imo. legally and pr speaking they will have to fully divorce themsleves with rebranding and a new name entirely. plus they can have no other issues moving forward. and even if they come back will anyone want to work with them?

 

[Frihetsanka]

depends on evidence presented.

I've heard from too many people that Alan is not trustworthy so I'm inclined to not believe what he's going to say, he's going to need some really solid evidence at this point to make up for all the people speaking up against him.

 

[Eremurus]

New CEO will 100% just be replicating whatever it is that Alan wants them to do, as he owns majority of Panda's shares, as someone else already pointed out.

They have to completely re-brand, regardless of what they do with Alan. Panda is toast.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Babe, wake up. New OrionStats update

OrionStats character update, probably the last big one for the year! G&W is seeing some rapid rising, wouldn't be surprised if he cracked the top 10 next year. pic.twitter.com/GEI2gvEb1H

— Barnard's Loop (@LoopBarnard) December 6, 2022

 

[Frihetsanka]

So Alan released his side of the story, and so far I've seen exactly one person that supports him (Technicals), while everyone else seems to be siding with VG BootCamp (who also released a final statement in response to Alan). Something noteworthy is that Alan is apparently looking to sell his shares of Panda. If he manages to do this, might there still be hope for Panda after all? The main issue is Alan, right?

 

[Sucumbio]

A short response to Dr. Alan's statement:https://t.co/p2nymdSSGv

— Smash World Tour 2022 (@SmashWorldTour) December 7, 2022

The response. I dunno. I feel the whole situation is getting bogged down in he-said-she-said at this point. Bottom line is SWT is done, Panda is done, VGBC may be done, PGstats may be done , and the competitive smash scene is the victim.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

New Tweek Talks episode about Mainstage and the SWT shutdown and Panda controversy

 

[Frihetsanka]

Remember the tournament scene (Ultimate Shockwave) that's experimenting with bans in order to see if it increases entrants? They had another tournament with both Steve and Kazuya banned, aaaand... 32 entrants. I already suspected it wouldn't be a long term fix for a "dying" local scene, and it overall hurts the Kazuya/Steve players more than it helps the local scene (especially since it doesn't even seem to significantly increase entrants long term).

Ultimate Shockwave 137 - Steve & Kazuya BANNED!

Ultimate Shockwave 137 - Steve & Kazuya BANNED!

www.start.gg

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Sparg0 is going to Let's Make Big Moves 2023 and Maister is going to Scuffed World Tour

I just registered for Let's Make BIG Moves 2023 https://t.co/v1Dw0OD0Pd #LMBM2023 via @startgg

— FaZe Sparg0 (@Sparg0ssb) December 11, 2022

Very happy to finally announce that I have been invited to Ludwig’s tournament “Scuffed World Tour”.

It’s a huge opportunity, thank you so much for inviting me!!! 🥳

— LG | Maister (@Maister_SSB) December 11, 2022

I know Dabuz and Quidd are also going to LMBM 2023 so it's possible both of these events are going to be STACKED.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

1000rank (a ranking in 2019) now has a ranking for this entire year.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/zl15qe Here's the top 20 going by that ranking (something to point out is that it doesn't care too much about players with lackluster attendance)

1. MkLeo
2. Sparg0
3. acola
4. Light
5. Sonix
6. Onin
7. Shuton
8. Tea
9. Riddles
10. Dabuz
11. Kola
12. Maister
13. Miya
14. Glutonny
15. Quidd
16. Tweek
17. ProtoBanham
18. Yoshidora
19. Cosmos
20. Kameme