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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    585

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,351
Someone made a tier list the exact same way PGStats did the official Melee tier list (Combining a bunch of pro players opinions from their own tier lists), and it comes out to something like this.
Combined overall tier list of many different pro-players opinions.jpg

This did use Japanese tier lists as well, so in spite of that it's still a very traditional and standard NA tier list.

Results from Maji Game Night #96. It was pretty stacked this time around, having some players from non-Georgia talent.

1. DDee :ultsteve: :ultpokemontrainerf:
2. Jake :ultsteve:
3. Sonix :ultsonic:
4. Jahzz0 :ultken:
5. JAVI ON EARTH :ultvillager:
5. Anarchy :ultgreninja:
7. Linus :ultrosalina:
7. Fallen :ultsteve:
 
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Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,969
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Someone made a tier list the exact same way PGStats did the official Melee tier list, and it comes out to something like this.
View attachment 352045
This did use Japanese tier lists as well, so in spite of that it's still a very traditional and standard NA tier list.

Results from Maji Game Night #96. It was pretty stacked this time around, having some players from non-Georgia talent.

1. DDee :ultsteve: :ultpokemontrainerf:
2. Jake :ultsteve:
3. Sonix :ultsonic:
4. Jahzz0 :ultken:
5. JAVI ON EARTH :ultvillager:
5. Anarchy :ultgreninja:
7. Linus :ultrosalina:
7. Fallen :ultsteve:
Decent Tier List. I'd place some characters a bit higher, as Corrin, Robin, Mewtwo and Jigglypuff, maybe Captain Falcon to. But this seems a very solid and realistic Tier List.

Doubt that Ultimate is ever gonna get a Tier List, but this is a a good as an official one.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
It does not remove end lag. It allows you to take advantage of the buffer windows to maximize whatever frames of advantage you have to work with when it comes to using air drift for combos and set-ups. It does not give you more to work with so much as let's characters more easily access what is already there, but could not consistently use due to human limitations.

You know how in anime you have that elder that unlocks a character's "true power"? That's Slingshot. Just maximizing what already exists.



Kazuya does benefit. People are already coming up with new combos and shield break set-ups. Jumping to conclusions on day 1? Nah. Just mess with the tech and be a student of the game. Let the game show you a conclusion. Don't be in a rush to reach one. Besides Kazuya's meta still has way more juice even if this did not help him. Kaz players aren't even doing CDC to break past zoning yet.

As far as Terry compared to shoto's, I would love to know why you think their ceiling is higher when Terry has access to better burst options which demands respect and sets the pace for him to Power Wave. That alone makes him more complex with a higher ceiling than Ken who essentially must play around his opponents and cannot make his opponent do anything. Ken as a character cannot enforce his will. He relies heavily on vortex type mix-ups that let him create scramble situations which can snowball out of control for his opponent if they do not choose the correct defensive option. I think perhaps you are so used to seeing Riddles play a certain way that you may think Terry has a low ceiling comparatively when he doesn't. His set-play is arguably the best of the FGC chars, especially his ability to trap landings. Riddles simply does not do it. He relies heavily on "Abare" i.e converting stray hits into combos for damage and kills.

Ryu is also fairly one dimensional, but he is quite good at what he does and can sit on a lead with the greatest of ease. His set-play is easier to see and abuse compared to Ken as well. Uair knocks you up. Tatsu knocks you up. So do an ender that knocks the opponent up and throw a hadouken as they fall so they have something to deal with. Apply pressure to their landing. Terry has VERY similar traps, but with even more options thanks to Burn Knuckle and Crackshoot. Riddles just refuses to try to trap landings. He won't even try it with Kazuya even though EWGF is THE anti-air of the gods. Why he doesn't do it much, I cannot say. Might just be his mindset to focus hardcore on conversions. I presume this is why his Kazuya is superior to his Terry. Kazuya gets much more out of stray neutral wins compared to literally every other character in the game.

However, when we look at shoto players they DO engage in set-play, landing traps, and tech traps. So if the strongest Terry is not doing those things, but the strongest shoto's are and the results are comparable between them; doesn't it follow that if the strongest Terry DID start utilizing those aspects of his game that the gap in results would widen?

Please share your thoughts.
You are right and I was wrong at least on the Kazuya. Dpe or the rising crumple is easy access now. Kazuya has a few new pressure tools and the new combos are even less affected by opponents di.

Optimized the name of the game slingshot gives is pressure and safe pressure at that. I'll watch some japanease Terry's and get back to you on t
Him vs the shots.
I'm most curious to see what ferns dors with Kazuya moving forward.
Sepiroth also appears to in theory gain a lot from this if he has more access to Bair and retratijg fair he is a much harder nut to xrack open.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,936
After experimenting for a while, here are my updated thoughts.

This slingshot tech was known before GimR made the video (it's partially an easier way to do IRAR; some character specialists already do this). Bringing this amount of hype to it will cause lots of top players to incorporate it into their gameplay, though, which definitely does matter in advancing the meta. It will for sure add more kill confirms in top 8s.

This isn't really an overarching evolution for the meta, but if there is something to see here, it's not the infinite shield pressure or crazy Sheik combos. It's the whiff punishing opportunities this presents. Some people are saying that swords get a lot better with this tech, but I disagree. If this is used properly, this could be part of the antidote to the sword spacing meta that we've all been watching at the very top level for a while now. You can punish so many whiffed swordie aerials with slingshot f-airs or b-airs!

High-mobility characters benefit the most from doing this, but it enables universal counterplay to disjoints, and that's definitely notable.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,351
r/smashbros has done a tier list based on hundreds of votes from the community

Thought it would be interesting to see how this compares and contrasts with the one using the same formula as PGStats tier list.
 
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Sucumbio

Smash Giant
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Icerim Mountains
r/smashbros has done a tier list based on hundreds of votes from the community

Thought it would be interesting to see how this compares and contrasts with the one using the same formula as PGStats tier list.
I am in almost total agreement with this tier list. Cloud seems a level too low. And all three low/bottom tiers should really just be mid minus, mid minus just mid and keep mid plus with maybe exception for little Mac and dorf in their own "low tier."
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,909
Location
Colorado
:ultwolf: and :ultyounglink: are my tournament corp. They do an excellent job making up for each other's weaknesses. YL has a terrible disadvantage state vs swordies and characters with big disjoints. All his projectiles lose to hitboxes. He's mobility is average with no burst options other than upB and he's on the lighter side. Aegis, Cloud, Lucina etc plus a few characters with reflectors that are hard to punish like Mario and Falco can give him trouble. Wolf does very well vs swordies with the 6th best airspeed in the game, his transcendent blaster which deals almost 10% and his amazing midrange game.

Wolf is a top tier and only has a handful of bad MUs, which usually end up being slippery little critters who can get past his midrange game and vortex him. I'm talking the rats, Inkling and Mario and maybe Greninja. YL has a f4 Nair that gives him a pretty good gtfo option vs characters without big disjoints. His amazing neutral game is really good against characters who usually thrive in neutral.
Wolf doesn't lose to fighting game characters like Terry but and super heavies but can go even with a lot of them. They can be difficult MUs as they have surprisingly good answers to Wolf's game. YL wins against most of them and makes those kinds of MUs much easier. YL's projectiles can be hell for slow big characters and fighting game characters who are used to outbuttoning opponents in CQC.

The only characters I think they both lose to are Mario and maybe Joker. Joker just is an amazing top tier with great options all around and high reward. But other than them, Wolf and YL have an answer for the entire cast.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
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Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,351
Still wish they'd emergency this. Purposely trying to keep an infinite in by keeping it hidden too...I can get wanting to win, but, really? Granted, I'm pretty biased, especially here, but come on.
I honestly don't think this Infinite would ever show up in tournaments because it seems way too hard and unreliable to set up.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
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May 14, 2021
Messages
690
Switch FC
SW-1042-6735-2236
Still wish they'd emergency this. Purposely trying to keep an infinite in by keeping it hidden too...I can get wanting to win, but, really? Granted, I'm pretty biased, especially here, but come on.
I agree, keeping character tech a secret is pretty scummy, even with the context of them being pro’s. Especially infinites. However, I feel that it may just be too finicky to actually be pulled off with any kind of consistentcy. It seems that the main thing is that is takes a lot of inputs. From what I see, Steve places a block, slightly damages it, does down tilt, and repeats. This looks not only…

1. Physically demanding, with precise inputs to avoid overmining the blocks
2. Very reaction based and dependent on if the opponent SDI’s
3. Requiring the opponent be next to the block, hasn’t damaged it, and not shielding or dodging.

Overall is just looks like a bad infinite in a game that already has bad infinites that basically never ever see tournament play.
 
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Arthur97

Smash Master
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Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
Is it even really an infinite if you can SDI out of it? Like, no, seriously, is it? How literal are we being with the term?
 
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Sucumbio

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Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
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Seems pretty situational, and so was the Diddy banana platform infinity, but that got pulled off a few times even in tournaments.

So yeah, this is a problem.

Steve mains are scum of the Earth for hiding this purposely
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
As tempting as it may be, you shouldn't lump them all together. As far as I can tell, this lies on Yonni. Questionable move to make an already disliked player base look even worse for an inconsistent infinite, but here we are.
 

Sucumbio

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All these slingshot techs people are discovering and now some infinites... I think a balance patch may be in our future.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
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Messages
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If they were going to patch slingshot, they probably would have done it by now considering this isn't actually new despite how few people knew about it. As for 0-deaths, I'm oddly not as opposed to those despite practically being the same thing. Maybe stuff like Luigi's just feels less cheesy to me. Plus, I don't think Luigi's is completely true relying on a proper read, but I'm not sure.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
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SDShamshel
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Mewtwo bias, but I think the character benefits more than most from slingshot. Even putting aside the tail pullback GIMR showed, the combination of poor air acceleration but absurdly high top air speed means there's lots of room for shenanigans. I don't know if we'll see a ton of breakouts, but I think a few are inevitable.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,351
Results over the past weekend

First off, Casablanca

1. Cosmos :ultmythra:
2. AlanDiss :ultsnake:
3. Maister :ultgnw: :ultsora:
4. Javi :ultroy: :ultlucina: :ultwolf:
5. Nair^ :ultridley: :ulthero:
5. Law :ultluigi: :ultchrom:
7. Guilheww :ultkirby:
7. Swain :ultroy:
9. ReZo :ultsteve:
9. MONTALVO :ultbowser:
9. Cloudy :ultmythra: :ultjoker:
9. Nalga :ultdk:

WINNER #10
1. Kameme :ultsora:
2. Suinoko :ultyounglink:
3. Zackray :ultsheik: :ultbylethf: :ultrob: :ultsora:
4. Tsubutsubo :ultjoker: :ultolimar:
5. Abadango :ultpikachu: :ultsamus: :ultpalutena: :ultmetaknight:
5. nagu :ultwolf:
7. Shogun :ultsnake:
7. shky :ultzss:
9. Raito :ultduckhunt: :ultbanjokazooie:
9. TRIGGER :ultsimon:
9. Rotsuku :ultyoshi:
9. Fuwa :ulticeclimbers:

Back in Blood 4

1. Scend :ultness:
2. Lui$ :ultpalutena: :ultfox:
3. ApolloKage :ultsnake:
4. Elegant :ultluigi:
5. Fatality :ultfalcon:
5. JoJoDaHoBo :ulttoonlink:
7. Lemmon :ultjoker:
7. Ludo :ultmario:
9. JeJaJeJa :ultkirby:
9. jaredisking1 :ultshulk:
9. Viola :ultmetaknight:
9. Active :ultfalco:
 

Cheryl~

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2018
Messages
447
Switch FC
SW-1511-1076-9918
results for Code Crimson (Alabama regional that became kind of a Southeast US major)

1st: Jake :ultsteve:
2nd: Xerzal :ultminmin
3rd: Sonido :ultsonic::ultsnake:
4th: Goblin :ultroy:
5th: JAVI ON EARTH :ultvillager:
5th: omega :ultjoker:
7th: ScAtt :ultsnake::ultsephiroth:
7th: YoseFu :ultsimon:
9th: Mugen :ultroy:
9th: Dany :ultwolf:
9th: HammerBro :ulticeclimbers:
9th: Doorstop :ultzss:

Notably, Xerzal (#1 in Alabama, a relatively unknown region) took some amazing wins like Sonido, omega, and TWO set wins on Goblin while taking Jake to game 9 in Grands. He hasn't really traveled to much out of region but he's held it down at these regionals, as he's the same Min Min player who took a set off of Kola at Blastoff earlier this year. If he gets to travel more he could become a huge threat at nationals with solo Min Min (which I don't recommend but it's working out for him!)
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
hiding tech is nothing new. dont see an issue with it.

Its very common for players to hide their best stuff. from real-life sports to card game builds, to fighting game tech. You dont owe the community your fidings. especially when these guys livelihoods are on the line.

Its on the devs to properly test and check for things they dont want in a game. fighting games always have extra stuff in them.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
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Messages
3,463
Livelihoods is a bit of a stretch for most players. Even fewer probably make their income solely from Smash.

And this isn't just a tech, it's an infinite, something generally not seen as the best of things, and they intentionally wanted to keep a negative element by doing so. Given the lack of reliability, it seems they also may have done it more to be smug or such than anything. Not a particularly good look.

As for checking, this game is monumentally huge with a lot of interactions. Don't tell me you seriously blame them for missing this?
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
Livelihoods is a bit of a stretch for most players. Even fewer probably make their income solely from Smash.

And this isn't just a tech, it's an infinite, something generally not seen as the best of things, and they intentionally wanted to keep a negative element by doing so. Given the lack of reliability, it seems they also may have done it more to be smug or such than anything. Not a particularly good look.

As for checking, this game is monumentally huge with a lot of interactions. Don't tell me you seriously blame them for missing this?
they've caught stuff before we knew it was there or needed to be changed. and given how well this game has proven to be balanced NOW you want to question them? because they missed a niche infinite? if you get hit with this you deserve to take it.

be smug? how? dont just say stuff actually show your reasoning? how is a character specialist showing they specialize in their character being smug?

since steve was a dlc character they've admitted took the most time to make they have had plenty of time to double and triple check him and his interactions.
 

F4lcoMain

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
55
Infinites might be cooler if most characters didn't already have easy 40-50% combos in this game. TBH I don't think this matters that much, though it will certainly make Steve stronger.
 
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Arthur97

Smash Master
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Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
they've caught stuff before we knew it was there or needed to be changed. and given how well this game has proven to be balanced NOW you want to question them? because they missed a niche infinite? if you get hit with this you deserve to take it.

be smug? how? dont just say stuff actually show your reasoning? how is a character specialist showing they specialize in their character being smug?

since steve was a dlc character they've admitted took the most time to make they have had plenty of time to double and triple check him and his interactions.
Yes, but they've also missed stuff before. Onto your last point, there's a lot of interactions and inevitably, they are going to miss something. It's only human.

The smug part is more, look at this infinite I found and managed to hide from the devs. It's not just finding it, it's hiding it and teasing about it for months.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,909
Location
Colorado
Huto did some matchup charts for Wario, Captain Falcon and King K Rool.

He is very optimistic on Falcon.
That Falcon MU chart seems overly optimistic, putting MUs like G&W as even. Although I do agree with Wolf and YL being even vs Falcon. Falcon loses to both in neutral as his neutral is fairly lacking but he can make big plays to gimp both or Uair to Fair knee and kill them early.

I noticed Wario's worst MU is Aegis at -2. I've seen this kind of thing a lot with various characters. Aegis is stupidly good. I played them as YL, I've seen someone use Falco vs them and Scend use Ness vs Cosmos' Aegis and came out with the same impression. What are you suposed to do; Aegis just has a good MU vs most of the cast. Mythra has amazing mobility, frame data and hitboxes. She can wall you and vortex you and there's not much you can do about it. Then she can swap to Pyra, who is excellent at killing so they don't even have the weakness of poor kill power to make up for it. That's why I picked up Wolf.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,351
Sparg0 is currently doing a Twitter AMA and has put in some thoughts on some characters

First off, he doesn't think Sora is good.

Here are the MUs he thinks Cloud loses

And here are his thoughts on Pyra/Mythra's tier placement
 
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Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
Meta Knight, huh? Does he have a Meta Knight he plays a lot? Seems like a rather unpopular fighter.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2021
Messages
690
Switch FC
SW-1042-6735-2236
I would say that Sora vs Hero is winning for hero, it’s just really really boring. It’s very patient and in general Hero can outdamage Sora, but when 2 inherently campy characters fight with neither super incentivized to approach are brought together... Yeah.
 

rustybucket76

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 30, 2022
Messages
2
I would say that Sora vs Hero is winning for hero, it’s just really really boring. It’s very patient and in general Hero can outdamage Sora, but when 2 inherently campy characters fight with neither super incentivized to approach are brought together... Yeah.
I agree, and so does the chart.
 
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