Compendium of all known Zelda buffs/nerfs/changes

[Katty Shepherd]

I don't know why, but I kinda like the idea of Zelda being a glass cannon. I'm not sure if we have had a character like this in Smash Bros. games before, but if it's anyone it should be Zelda. I know a lot of people actually don't like glass cannons, but I think it fits Zelda pretty well.

Zelda's a very unique character, there's no other character with her options, a shield, a teleporter, and a projectile (two now!) combined with a semi-close range fighting game. She's light, but she's powerful; Unlike Ganondorf, or other characters with her power and when you compare her to characters like Ganondorf with heavy kill moves, than she's pretty fast (d smash anyone?). I think Sakurai's idea was to make her a glass cannon, one that can be off set by Sheik. Of course people just favored Sheik and with Sheik gone she truly has to make up for her weaknesses. Phantom, I think can, as a sort of long range GTFO move or has anyone considered it as a sweeper. I mean the entire attack begins and ends at a pretty big range, you could probably catch a few people in that.

 

[micstar615]

Zelda was always meant to be a glass cannon imo, it's just because of how poorly some of her balancing and overall design choices were, she was more glass than cannon. However I think with some of the changes that have been listed as well as with custom specials potentially making her specials (which have all notably been pretty awful in both past iterations) better, I think Zelda will definitely improve this time around, I'll be playing as her often ether way but she's been amongst the worst characters in past games so they need to improve ha.

 

[Katty Shepherd]

Zelda was always meant to be a glass cannon imo, it's just because of how poorly some of her balancing and overall design choices were, she was more glass than cannon. However I think with some of the changes that have been listed as well as with custom specials potentially making her specials (which have all notably been pretty awful in both past iterations) better, I think Zelda will definitely improve this time around, I'll be playing as her often ether way but she's been amongst the worst characters in past games so they need to improve ha.

By a lot.
Oh, and it might help if people actually, you know, played as her in tournaments?

 

[Novice_Brave]

Not sure if this belongs here, but here's what Zipzo mentioned about Zelda from the new Japanese Smash 4 demo.

Side B (Din's Fire)

Q. "What is the time between releasing the special attack button for Din's Fire and it creating a hitbox?"
A. "The explosion seems to happen more instantaneously from the point in which you "release" it."

Down B (Phantom)

"It doesn't hit a character right up in her grill. The phantom spawns maybe a character away, so if your opponent is right up on you, the phantom will just spawn in front of them and whiff."

Fair & Bair / Up B (Farore's Wind)

Q. "Is Lightning Heel closer to Melee or Brawl (or, god forbid, Project M)?"
A. "Thunder heel feels a little nerfed but her recovery has some ridiculous kill power on it for some reason."

Overall

Q. "Overall, how does Zelda feel to you, does she feel stronger in this than she did in Brawl?"
A. "Her phantom attack is actually pretty cool but something to note is that it will not hit a character standing directly in front of you. It will start a model away from zelda and rush forward, completely ignoring the character standing in your grill. I haven't played Zelda all too often in previous iterations but she felt like a glass cannon, if you will. Each of her abilities seemed to really freaking hurt when connected, but she's pretty light."

Thanks! I'm not sure there's any new information here that I could add to the list per se, but it is good to have Zipzo's information compiled into a single post.

I still think that the Phantom will be a decent close ranged "get away from me" move as @ Katty Shepherd said. Despite it not doing anything until the sword swipe, it's still close enough that I think it should catch a lot of characters trying to get into or out of melee range. Good to hear that FW still has its crazy kill potential from the E3 build!

I wouldn't mind a slight damage/knockback nerf to lightning kick since it's still probably going to be a guaranteed kill fairly early regardless - I just hope that we can get a confirmation on the sweetspot soon. I can't imagine that got nerfed from Brawl, considering it was a one frame sweetspot on a tiny portion of her foot. Hopefully, it can only go up from there.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Does anyone know @WeinhofferBen? Perhaps associated with Twitch Clash Tournaments? Anyway, it seems he's at one the demo events and his impression on Zelda is... not good. Another vote for bottom tier I'm afraid.

But again, don't know the guy, if he's a tourney smash player however his opinion might hold some weight.

EDIT: His twitter account link in case anyone wants to check out any details, the tweets are pretty scatterd and hard to find though. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/with_replies

 

[micstar615]

Yeah I read Ben's tweets and it made me kind of upset to see someone else saying she was nerfed :/ however idk how credible he is or if he even knows how to play Zelda. I'd take his words with a grain of salt.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Yeah it's hear-say at this point. Still a bit disheartening to see, hope he's wrong.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Zelda is not a character many people take the time to get to know intimately, so I doubt there's very many (if any) good Zelda players there for him to base his observations on. I say we just keep up the optimism until we have the game in our hands ourselves. We know ourselves what buffs she had received within the E3 demo, and I can't believe at all that Sakurai would take any of those away based on feedback from people there - though I do think her getting more buffs since then is a possibility.

I am hoping new, concrete changes come from this demo - or at least from the Japanese release, but until we play her for ourselves all we can do it stay optimistic!

 

[Toadallstar2]

Yeah maybe I'm delusional but I really don't think she's that nerfed. I'm not really taking their opinions too seriously, they seem very fast and not very factual. Just "she still sucks." Probably only seen matches of others who don't know how to use her or they tried her themselves, but it's not a character that works for them. So, IE, she sucks.
No.
The buffs she got far outweigh any potential nerfs.
Hope there's a team of Zeldas who plan on kicking major lightning when this comes out. I know I'll be hitting online how I did Brawl and destroy all those "bro" top tiered douchebags.

lol.

 

[Fireemblemfreak]

Yeah maybe I'm delusional but I really don't think she's that nerfed. I'm not really taking their opinions too seriously, they seem very fast and not very factual. Just "she still sucks." Probably only seen matches of others who don't know how to use her or they tried her themselves, but it's not a character that works for them. So, IE, she sucks.
No.
The buffs she got far outweigh any potential nerfs.
Hope there's a team of Zeldas who plan on kicking major lightning when this comes out. I know I'll be hitting online how I did Brawl and destroy all those "bro" top tiered douchebags.

lol.

I doubt Zelda got worse, but I'm still worried. Hopefully she really is a glass Canon like Zipzo said.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I get looks whenever people see me pick Zelda (which is all the time because main) and it's hilarious because tthepeople who give you those looks lose xP I doubt Zelda got worse, but I'm still worried. Hopefully she really is a glass Canon like Zipzo said.

I know that feel. I'm not really a tournament player, but I did one (2 vs 2, with a friend) in my town, where we picked Zelda and Samus, while the other finalists bragged about being killers with Metaknight and Ike.

They were quite shocked when we won Obviously, it was not a big tournament, but still, it was fun.
There's was also a PikaPika team, spamming the down B...

To me, Zelda is a good character, who is not suited for the big tournaments. She needed buffs, and she got some. So it's all good.

 

[Fireemblemfreak]

I kinda liked her Melee position on the Tier list. She seemed to be in a good spot. Not saying I want Melee Zelda back by any means, just her position, or maybe a little lower xD Zelda has been my main since Melee though, and I'm not giving up on her. I'm going to try to be optimistic for once and say she'll get better.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I kinda liked her Melee position on the Tier list. She seemed to be in a good spot. Not saying I want Melee Zelda back by any means, just her position, or maybe a little lower xD Zelda has been my main since Melee though, and I'm not giving up on her. I'm going to try to be optimistic for once and say she'll get better.

Technically, she was better in Brawl (that's my personnal feeling), but the game itself put her in a bad position. This time around, I'm confident that the balancing will be better, and that she will get a better position. But I don't want her to be in a too good position, how will I play an underrated character if she becomes too good?

 

[Fireemblemfreak]

Technically, she was better in Brawl (that's my personnal feeling), but the game itself put her in a bad position. This time around, I'm confident that the balancing will be better, and that she will get a better position. But I don't want her to be in a too good position, how will I play an underrated character if she becomes too good?

Yeah xD I mean, I'm sure I'd play her anyway but it's no fun to play a character everyone plays. I don't really think I could ever see her being higher then mid tier, which I am okay with xD I want her to be low tier, but maybe in like the same position as Ike. XD Not in a tier where she is considered the second worst in the game.

 

[eungelic]

It's entirely possible for Zelda to be 'nerfed' compared to previous installments and still be considered better. It really just depends on how the game plays, how useful her custom moves are, and if said custom moves will be tournament legal. Here's to hoping her custom moves really do her some justice.

Based on what I'm posting below, it's starting to seem like Zelda's biggest improvement in this installment is her recovery. If I'm understanding his post correctly, the startup of Zelda's recovery has a strong vertical knock back. If you choose to recover upwards, you will reappear where they are being launched to and hit them a second time.

New information from Zipzo;

Fair & Bair

"Her fair and bair are both kicks with sweet spots that hit for 18-20% with huge knock back if you nail it. Low landing lag. 4-6% otherwise."

Up B (Farore's Wind)

"Her teleport doesn't just do damage on reappearance. The enacting animation launches opponents close enough. If you use the teleport it will launch people, and if you use it upward you appear almost precisely at their launch point to hit them with the reappearing attack, which tends to be quite gnarly since they are already quite high from the launch."

Neutral Air

"Her neutral air is a twirl almost exactly like peach except it is several hits. It hits the opponent maybe 4-5 times if you catch the opponent on the first hit of it."

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Yeah xD I mean, I'm sure I'd play her anyway but it's no fun to play a character everyone plays. I don't really think I could ever see her being higher then mid tier, which I am okay with xD I want her to be low tier, but maybe in like the same position as Ike. XD Not in a tier where she is considered the second worst in the game.

I can deal with a low tier character, if the tiers are not too different. Brawl's balance is horrible, but if this game is well balanced, it doesn't really matter.

But... Yeah, somehow, I end up liking the low tiers in fighting games, and somehow, I love that. Always fun to see reactions when you take an underestimated character! And people are sometimes not even used to fight against some low tiers (and that's really fun to see)

 

[ihskeyp]

Anyone who says '____ will be bottom tier' is not trustworthy or credible. Basically anyone who says something about a characters tier before the game even comes out has no credibility. Ignore him.

 

[Fireemblemfreak]

I guess what I mean by I don't want her to be too low tier is that I want her to be viable, and not just a character used BECAUSE she's low tier.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Zipzo just said that Zelda's aerial kicks were easy to land!

Now THAT'S what I call a good information!

 

[MechaWave]

Y'all may be happy to know that Ben guy was a fake.

 

[ihskeyp]

Y'all may be happy to know that Ben guy was a fake.

How was he a fake? How was this found out?

 

[BJN39]

Zipzo just said that Zelda's aerial kicks were easy to land!

Now THAT'S what I call a good information!

Confimation link please

 

[Toadallstar2]

Zipzo just said that Zelda's aerial kicks were easy to land!

Now THAT'S what I call a good information!

yesss where is he saying this stuff? I missed it.

This is great. Even from the demo I noticed so many sweetspot f/bairs and was impressed.
Even sour is 6%? I'll take it, especially is KB is just enough so they cant do an aerial right back.
It's funny, in Brawl a lot of the time if I sour it I can just do a quick Up smash once we land and it works out.

 

[micstar615]

When did Zipzo say her Lightening Kicks were easier to land? That's GREAT news, if true.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

http://www.twitch.tv/zipzo62

He his still streaming, and I don't know WHEN he said it. But what matters is that he said it. This also applies to the knee of justice, and I remember that he said that at a different time, so his feeling is that sweetspots are easier in general.

 

[MechaWave]

How was he a fake? How was this found out?

Zipzo disproved some of the information that Ben provided. Many things he said didn't match up with Zipzo's impressions of the characters and venue information about the event.

No one was ever inclined to believe that Ben was actually there as well, it was just assumed.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Zipzo disproved some of the information that Ben provided. Many things he said didn't match up with Zipzo's impressions of the characters and venue information about the event.

No one was ever inclined to believe that Ben was actually there as well, it was just assumed.

He does seem fishy, I google'd him and he doesn't seem to be a famous smash player or anything. Just a random guy. And this is the perfect opportunity to lay false information, no one really knows who really attended the demo events or not since there are a lot players attending.

But to be fair, different impressions of characters doesn't necessarily mean he's lying. People still argue about tier placements of characters from games that have long since released. He could just disagree with Zipzo on how good or bad certain characters are.

Unless he confesses, or someone that lives near him says he didn't attend the event, I don't think there's a real way of knowing. Either way it's nice hearing information, but I don't think anyone's taking the demo info as gospel yet. Even if we seem to disappointed or excited about any news lol.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Fortunately Zipzo seemed to have naught but good news for us from the demo. He called Zelda's recovery (along with Palutena and Villager's) one of the best in the demo - probably because the teleport is much faster now, it grabs ledges, and the reappearance at the end being so powerful discourages trying to wait for her at the ledge. Still probably going to be a bit wonky in how many directions we can move as well as the post-appearance horizontal movement, but it's surely looking better at least.

He did indeed say he thought Zelda's fair/bair sweetspots were pretty easy to land (though whether this is because they're actually better or it was just easier to land them in 4 player matches with less practiced players is debatable), and that they had little landing lag. Basically reaffirms that they've carried over the good buffs from the E3 demo and have potentially given her more - though at this point I don't think we can say there's any concrete evidence of new buffs.

He did also say that the explosion on releasing Din's fire was instantaneous, but I'm not quite sure to what extent he meant or how familiar with previous Din's explosions he is.

 

[Tweedle]

I'll play as her regardless of her tier position. (Like I did in brawl haha) but it's still nice to see some buffs.

 

[ihskeyp]

Well you gerls have fun with Zelda in smash 4.

I keep seeing you come back to the Zelda forums only to make fun of the people who have hope for her. And you ignore all of her obvious buffs.
You are quite annoying. No wonder you continuously get banned.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Well you gerls have fun with Zelda in smash 4.

Thanks, I definitely will. You have fun playing whoever it is you're going to be playing.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Sis I'm sorry you somehow think losing the ability to transform into Sheik and having it replaced by some slow reflectable projectile is a buff.

But I guess from a casual perspective she's a gr8 character.

#TeamSheik

Well considering she was going to lose a down special at all otherwise, yeah - it's better. And for Zelda as a solo character, it is better for her. Since Transform literally just makes her not Zelda anymore. Glad you like Sheik, enjoy her in Smash 4.

 

[meleebrawler]

The thing about Zelda is that the developers seem to have made her with the mindset of a character that waits for a move
then responds, it even says so in one of her Melee trophies (the Adventure one). Unfortunately this kind of defensive has been historically flawed, with a slow grab and terrible projectile that can be read from a mile away, forcing her to go on the offence with slow movement and awkward aerials.

 

[meleebrawler]

If only Zelda could store her Phantom charge, she would finally have a good ranged option to watch out for...

 

[micstar615]

Custom moves are also a thing guys... let's wait till the game comes out before we write her off. She's already looking much better than her Brawl incarnation.

 

[meleebrawler]

Zelda relies heavily on reads and punishes, which is why she hits hard with single attacks and has terrible mobility.

Here's hoping she gets better custom projectiles and/or a faster grab...

On a positive note lower Smash DI means many of her moves (such as Nair, USmash) may become more reliable.

 

[micstar615]

I agree that custom moves are looking to be her ONLY saving grace but...




Is this a serious comment?

SDI is less effective so her Fsmash, Usmash, NAir, and Jab will be more consistent. Her Usmash is faster and pulls the opponent in, Farore's Wind is much faster and more powerful, may even be useful for mobility purposes, Naryu's is bigger, has increased range and less ending lag. She also has a small increase in speed and apparently her lightening kicks are easier to sweet spot. All of this makes her better than She was in Brawl, the only thing that was outright nerfed is Din's Fire and depending on how you look at it, Utilt. Din's Fire may be replaced with a better custom option and Utilt is actually better now imo since it can give her more combo ability. We have to wait till the game is in our hands to see if she'll be good or not (and if all of the above is true) but most of us are convinced that she's better than the sitting duck she was in Brawl.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

What micstar615 said, if nothing else I have better hopes at balance with the Namco team working with them, so even if she is the worst in the game --- the gaps won't be as bad as in Brawl.

 

[meleebrawler]

I just realized something. Since air dodging too close to the ground leaves you vulnerable, maybe Din's Fire will be very good at
punishing far-away empty jumps with proper aim.

 

[RayaGRH]

I'm really excited for Zelda. Almost everything we've heard from Zipzo has been positive, particularly Farore's Wind which sounds fantastic. Plus, there are custom moves, so who knows what changes we could see that make her more viable.

Besides, playing Zelda in Brawl I would have never even known Zelda was low-tier (and neither would my friends, who I always beat with her). She's great against inexperienced players, and let's face it, that's who we face when we play smash most of the time, unless you are in the competitive scene. So for me, it doesn't even matter if she's competitively viable because I can still own with her in my day to day.