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Community Samus Design Issues That Need Resolving Video

White_Pointer

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@ JAZZ_ JAZZ_ I find the tether recovery is still kind of strange. Sometimes, the tether grab does actually come out as expected, but instead of snapping to the ledge and grabbing it, it does the Zair attack instead, so it shoots straight horizontally to attack the opponent and even if it looks like it connects with the edge, it doesn't grab it. Tends to happen more often if your opponent is standing near the edge or is sometimes challenging you off stage...the game seems to get confused and goes for the Zair attack instead of the recovery sometimes depending on the positions of the players.

On the subject of her tether recovery, I'm a firm believer that her invincibility frames should start the moment the tether recovery grabs the edge, NOT when her hands grab the edge. I'm sick of reading and air dodging off stage challenges only to be hit out of my tether recovery as I'm swinging onto the ledge.
 

Xygonn

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Thanks for the tip, people, I will try doing the Air Dodge first....
But why do that even happen? Why does her tether become an aerial in some situations?
Two reasons. Out of tumble tether never works. Out of endlag frames, attack is buffered first so if you try to buffer a tether out of another attack it will be an attack.
 

DungeonMaster

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@Vyrnx is there no upload to you-tube feature on 3DS? If not, your replay may be sunk... I don't have any way of accessing it. Thanks irrespective.

@ Xygonn Xygonn yeah I should highlight this in the compendium since it comes up often enough. On my list.

For all of you who have had this question: If you watch enough replays you'll see a bunch of us throwing out up-air when we're knocked very high, it seems like it's pointless since there's no target around but it's specifically to get out of tumble animation and not limit our options. I highly recommend doing this when your opponent has no possible follow up.
 

DungeonMaster

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Also guys, I really think we should produce this video earlier rather than later. I'm aiming for AT LATEST 2 weeks from today, or sep 1st. My guess is if the next round of balancing is going to happen, and this video is to have any impact at all - and that is the hope, however slim - it needs to have been out by then to have built some online momentum.

I'm going to get footage tonight of d-smash blindpspot, a quick comparison vs. other d-smash, aerial CS vs. grounded frame by frame and some stale big hits vs. 1 damage jab clanking.

If you do feel seriously frustrate by the issues, please add to the list and contribute video. The more clips we have, the better case we can build by having the best/most absurd examples. Even if your clip is not ultimately used, you will get credit, and you'll be doing something towards fixing it rather than just whining. :p
 

Metallinatus

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Two reasons. Out of tumble tether never works. Out of endlag frames, attack is buffered first so if you try to buffer a tether out of another attack it will be an attack.
For all of you who have had this question: If you watch enough replays you'll see a bunch of us throwing out up-air when we're knocked very high, it seems like it's pointless since there's no target around but it's specifically to get out of tumble animation and not limit our options. I highly recommend doing this when your opponent has no possible follow up.
That makes sense.... so if it really consistently always works that way, then I guess it is not a problem to get the tether when you want at all.... you just need to know it works that way, which not everybody does.
But good enough if it is consistent.
I guess I could contribute some videos (using the in-game upload tool) if there is some specific shots you want me to do.
 

DungeonMaster

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@ Metallinatus Metallinatus and anyone else interested in aiding: Just look at the OP and try to fill in blanks. If we have some repetition - or you think you can do better than what is linked, by all means go ahead.

I just got a pile of replays from @ MegaRiff MegaRiff , thanks! Any additional low-lights I might miss since you know the replays in detail? v. nice shield mac's jab, spot dodge samus' grab, f-smash to face kill. That's going in for sure.
 

JAZZ_

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I have something quite interesting, luigi interupting and hurting my ftilt when I was behind him with decent space between us when he used Side B away from me. If you want it I'll add you as a friend and send the replay.
 

MegaRiff

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@ Metallinatus Metallinatus and anyone else interested in aiding: Just look at the OP and try to fill in blanks. If we have some repetition - or you think you can do better than what is linked, by all means go ahead.

I just got a pile of replays from @ MegaRiff MegaRiff , thanks! Any additional low-lights I might miss since you know the replays in detail? v. nice shield mac's jab, spot dodge samus' grab, f-smash to face kill. That's going in for sure.
Nothing comes to mind at the top of my head. Maybe if I have some time this weekend, I can go over them.

Also, I really wish I had saved one specific replay where my bomb got Roy dead center, and me thinking I could punish with a fsmash only to whiff, not because of the poor hit stun (he was at high enough percent) but because the hit stun sent him towards me and my fsmash whiffed because of its stupid hotbox. I was raging. It was a beautiful setup.
 

DungeonMaster

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@ JAZZ_ JAZZ_ yes please do. The more ridiculous the better. We can show lab stuff till our eyeballs are blue - and there's a place for that for sure - but video from "in the field" nonsense shows our frustration is not merely theoretical.

@ MegaRiff MegaRiff please do I have a keen eye but I do miss things. That's a pity, that would definitely have made it in...
 
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JAZZ_

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Nothing comes to mind at the top of my head. Maybe if I have some time this weekend, I can go over them.

Also, I really wish I had saved one specific replay where my bomb got Roy dead center, and me thinking I could punish with a fsmash only to whiff, not because of the poor hit stun (he was at high enough percent) but because the hit stun sent him towards me and my fsmash whiffed because of its stupid hotbox. I was raging. It was a beautiful setup.
funny thing is i tend to get those combos often, though i lay bombs like a mad man all around me before someone tries approaching but ive had that happen too. i guess i just block out those whiffs in my head
 

MegaRiff

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funny thing is i tend to get those combos often, though i lay bombs like a mad man all around me before someone tries approaching but ive had that happen too. i guess i just block out those whiffs in my head
Maybe I should try and block em out too. But man, It's hard to ignore.
 

JAZZ_

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Maybe I should try and block em out too. But man, It's hard to ignore.
Its all about the spacing you give yourself after a bomb placement, if you play around with bomb mobility you might find your sweet spot. my favorite thing it to lay a bomb and use the bombs ball mode to go left then immediately lay another and go right, repeat in sync until opponent approaches (kinda like juggling yourself), most likely they'll try to roll past all of them and it doesnt work ( or they may try a dash attack and most of the time you can bomb jump over it) and if your already bombing towards the direction the opponent previously was facing your perfectly spaced for a bomb>Fsmash. Ive done this numerous times and ill try to find a replay with it or do it in FG next time I play.
 

DungeonMaster

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I have to make the deadline firm actually, Sept 1st last day to submit vids. I am going for surgery on the 4th (ACL repair), so if you have a gripe and want to it in the video, move on it!
 

JAZZ_

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understood, I hope your surgery goes well.
 

DungeonMaster

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Thanks for the replays guys, ammunition stockpile growing. Keep it coming, need help with best in game punishes of whiffed grabs, shield grabs, fair and aerial priority specifically.

@ Afro Smash Afro Smash do you have that impromptu jab war in a better format? It looked real. :p
 
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Afro Smash

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Thanks for the replays guys, ammunition stockpile growing. Keep it coming, need help with best in game punishes of whiffed grabs, shield grabs, fair and aerial priority specifically.

@ Afro Smash Afro Smash do you have that impromptu jab war in a better format? It looked real. :p
Not my vid btw


A disgusting example of F Tilt being unsafe AND the hurtbox extension


I miss a grab slightly after Link, but he still has time to roll and hit me with D Smash before I can shield
 
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Varia31

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You know, this is only an idea, but I almost wonder if her current d-smash would be better off as her d-tilt, and her d-tilt as her d-smash. I mean, by doing this, it would make all her smash attacks involve her cannon and all her tilts involve her legs. Maybe make the newly swapped d-tilt a bit faster and a little weaker (it's weak enough as it is being a smash), and make her new d-smash about the same speed, but a little stronger, and more punishable on shield? Just a thought. She did use her leg as a d-tilt in 64, y'know! ;)
 

-_ellipsis_-

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You know, this is only an idea, but I almost wonder if her current d-smash would be better off as her d-tilt, and her d-tilt as her d-smash. I mean, by doing this, it would make all her smash attacks involve her cannon and all her tilts involve her legs. Maybe make the newly swapped d-tilt a bit faster and a little weaker (it's weak enough as it is being a smash), and make her new d-smash about the same speed, but a little stronger, and more punishable on shield? Just a thought. She did use her leg as a d-tilt in 64, y'know! ;)
I'm getting happy feelings thinking about a falling upair > jab > dsmash(dtilt) kill setup
 

Hapajin

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You know, this is only an idea, but I almost wonder if her current d-smash would be better off as her d-tilt, and her d-tilt as her d-smash. I mean, by doing this, it would make all her smash attacks involve her cannon and all her tilts involve her legs. Maybe make the newly swapped d-tilt a bit faster and a little weaker (it's weak enough as it is being a smash), and make her new d-smash about the same speed, but a little stronger, and more punishable on shield? Just a thought. She did use her leg as a d-tilt in 64, y'know! ;)
Samus also has this cool get-up attack where she strikes both sides with her arm cannon. I think that would be a sick down smash.
 

DungeonMaster

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Thanks guys! Less speculation, more action! :p
I want more VISUAL complaints last day to get your pet-peeve in the video is a mere week away.

Thanks Afro and other for contributing, that tether vs. tether example is really telling...
 

MOI-ARI

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Fsmash shenanigans. But now that i think about it, i think this happens to anyone who does a grounded Attack against sleep so....maybe not a big deal? Anyways. Ban Samus.
 
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DungeonMaster

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@ MOI-ARI MOI-ARI No, I don't think that happens to every f-smash vs. sleep. That is a fantastic example of how the hurt-box is extended in ridiculous way after the hit, pretty much exactly what I was looking for f-smash. Can you upload to youtube in better quality? I can re-engineer it otherwise myself (easily I hope).

Judging from shovel knight heresay, we really may not have much time to get this video out before patch. I'm going to be doing a bunch of recording tonight and see how the pieces we have right now flow.
 
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MOI-ARI

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@ MOI-ARI MOI-ARI No, I don't think that happens to every f-smash vs. sleep. That is a fantastic example of how the hurt-box is extended in ridiculous way after the hit, pretty much exactly what I was looking for f-smash. Can you upload to youtube in better quality? I can re-engineer it otherwise myself (easily I hope).
Okay im not technically home at the moment, but in a little bit i'll be able to swing by my place and fire up the Wiiu. And maybe try that Youtube connectivity thingy? Or send the replay to you? What you think. I dont have a fancy smancy capture card. Yet.

Also sorry for my 'creepy fast' response there 'xD i have like 4 monitor screens around me lmao. :p
 

Zaprong

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Thanks for the replays guys, ammunition stockpile growing. Keep it coming, need help with best in game punishes of whiffed grabs, shield grabs, fair and aerial priority specifically.

@ Afro Smash Afro Smash do you have that impromptu jab war in a better format? It looked real. :p
It's mine~

I can try uploading it to youtube via youtube function, the replay is very short so it should do.

Want me to do so?

EDIT: Just did anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-c9sSvFFhg

Match lagged a ton but the jab part was gold (Timestamp is 0:47)
 
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MOI-ARI

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It happens at around 55 seconds mark.


It gets very choopy at one point but tye quality thankfully clears just in time 'xD
sorry my Samus was simply tired of Jigglypuff. Like the third one i fought that afternoon.I don't really play that bad! I swear! >_>"
 

DungeonMaster

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Thanks guys, I now have collected all the clips from replays, youtube and replays that people have sent me.

@Squaddle do you have in a higher res format the video clips from your missile priority rage video? I would really like to include them, I can't seem to generate as convincing scenarios as what you've done.
Unfortunately I realize now that I'm playing sub-consciously avoiding a lot of the missile crap and so to try and consciously get into those situations looks contrived rather than well intended.

Remaining items the video is currently lacking/few examples:
Up-B priority in the air
Stale big hits vs tiny hits i.e. traditional grounded priority (I can engineer this but it won't look very real, a few real examples would be nice)
Some additional startup of shield grab being severely punished (preferably kills) @ MegaRiff MegaRiff gave me a great one.
No good aerial vs. aerial priority shots. Really lacking in that department.
 

DungeonMaster

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Ok guys, things are coming along with the video. Over the coming weekend is the last chance to contribute and get your frustration in the video.

Here's a snippet of some of the video editing I've done:

On the top you can see the nintendo direct samus missile, on the bottom the current 1.10 missile. I've arranged the video such that they match at the only frame that doesn't seem to have had cosmetic re-touching done to it, at 4.00 seconds, you can see Samus in a feet close together holding arm cannon stance. I think it's the best way to give side-by-side comparison since I can't quite replicate the walking animation.
Frame counting, as best as I can tell Samus used to have much faster startup, ~10 frames and better cooldown at ~5 frames. Which would mean ~45 total frames instead of 57.Similar to link's hero's bow.
It doesn't completely resolve the issues with homing missile of course, but it definitely once was a useful move, somewhere between the nintendo direct and production version is basically where Samus' neutral game died.
Please don't advertise this video widely yet to the rest of smashboards, wait for the full version because there's more information I've dug up.

I've found clips showing z-air doing base 2 and 5 damage at mid range.
So right now we have missile massive nerf, d-tilt nerf, n-air nerf, z-air nerf all before we ever got the game in hand.
 
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MOI-ARI

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loooo That is pretty sad. xD

I kinda wish i was one of the first people at e3 to play this game in its pre-release. Im sure there were other characters that had better a neutral, but wrre wrongly removed. But damn imagine a missile fire rate of Links bow? That'd be kewl....
 

White_Pointer

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You know, one of the major things that irks me about the charge shot are the startup frames. The opponent can very easily hit you between the time that you press the button and when the shot actually fully comes out, and the shot has no hitbox on it until it's fully out. The most aggravating thing about it is that you lose the charge shot in this scenario, despite the fact it doesn't come out properly.

Pretty sure most charge moves work the same way mind you, so it's not unique to Samus...however given that Samus' is the only one that can't be charged in the air, AND it's her primary kill move, she's disadvantaged more than the rest by this.
 

Ffamran

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So... we have an extended version now... Let's give this a rundown. Also, bear in mind that I don't play Samus, so I don't know her enough to make "good" calls.

All right, Nair... Lots of aerials don't really hit when used that close to the ground, so there's nothing wrong with this. It's wonky at times, though... So, take Falco's Uair: it hits from his back to front and there is a hitbox on him, so a center hitbox. Using it close to the ground, if you try to hit with it reversed, it's probably not going to hit. If you try to hit with the front, Falco can hit with his feet, but it'll miss on shorter characters. If he's right next to them, the center hitbox usually hits. Not a Samus issue; it's more of a universal issue for aerials used close to the ground.

Dash attack. We get it, Captain Falcon's dash attack is stupidly disjointed... Samus's is in the same case as Ike's dash attack and Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot. The animation has them setting up before hitting. Nothing wrong with this except that Ike and Ganondorf have more range. Ike's uppercut with Ragnell during dash attack hits under him and reaches far horizontally while Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot as evident by its name has his freaking leg out in front of him and he's traveling fairly quick. Samus's dash attack is a tackle which doesn't exactly have a lot of range since the hitbox is just on her body. What they could do here is make it so Samus readies herself quicker which would mean she hits quicker. Kind of like how Little Mac rushes forward then hits, but he does this much quicker than Samus. So, let's say it's frame 7 now instead of frame 10.

The walking in front and having moves miss... This is a problem for Marth and Lucina's Shield Breaker, pretty sure (Dr.) Mario's Side Smash, and a couple of other moves. DK's Up Smash won't hit Mario while he's next to them or spaced meaning he has to hit people if they're above them or they're tall enough. That's a bigger issue than this which won't happen a lot. I mean, sure they could make it so Samus has a hitbox that pushes you like ROB's Up Smash, but that would end up giving her like a frame 8 Side Smash that's pretty damn powerful and it's already the fastest Side Smash alongside Marth, Lucina, and the Pits. The major issue here as shown by Link walking into the blast is its active frames. Samus's Side Smash hits on frame 10-11, 2 active frames, contrast this with Marth and Lucina's hitting at frame 10-13, 4 active frames, or the Pits' two-hit Side Smash that hits on frames 10 and 21. Or how about a similarly explosive Side Smash? Mario's at frame 15-17, 3 active frames. Yeah... a simple fix would be to add another frame for the hitbox like what they did to fix Ike's Fair so it hits above him. This would mean Samus's Side Smash should be frame 10-12 instead of the short 10-11.

Screw Attack... Really? No invincibility or anything... Meanwhile, Marth, Lucina, (Dr.) Mario, and Ryu. Simple fix yet again, just give it invincibility or intangibility on startup. It's frame 5, so just make the intangibility frame 5 as well. Invincibility would look cool if it's something like this.

Not going to comment on Missiles since yeah, it's an explosive, but if she had access to 2 kill projectiles that can be set up, it's going to be stupid. Even Villager doesn't have kill projectiles like that. Side Smash is purely vertical, Fair and Bair don't really kill until later percents unless you're near the blast zones, dash attack isn't that powerful, Lloid doesn't really kill well or is intended to kill, and calling the Tree a projectile is kind of pushing it...

Down Smash for its power should be faster. As in the Pits, Zelda, and Ryu faster which would more or less undermine her unique Down Smash... Well, it should be unique. I don't know, making it faster would just help right now. If you could do something else, then sure.

Dtilt... Ike's Dtilt doesn't kill at that percent either. Why? Because apparently, explosions and enchanted two-handed swords are pathetically weak compared to an anthropomorphic pheasant's tail that kills 100% earlier than theirs sweet-spotted or about 40% with the disjoint. Fantastic logic... They should have given Falco a sick sweep kick to justify that ridiculous power... Nope, diamond tail swipe. Anyway, Samus's Dtilt functions as a launcher for setups which is fine... Except that Ike gets to act 11 frames earlier and Falco gets to act 13 frames earlier. They could reduce the end lag... Just saying.

Animation, animation, animation... Look, if one of Samus's throws was something like her F-throw has her fire a slightly charged shot pointblank and it didn't kill, I'd be ****** too, but it's this weird shocky, whippy, throwy things... At least make it so rage affects her U-throw like Marth, Lucina, and Roy's.

Yay... The ol' I'm super tall, so let's give me a move that hits above me. Good anti-air, but horrible ground move and guess who else suffers? DK, except his Up Smash is more consistent when connecting. They might want to make it so all the loop hits auto-link instead of the first and fourth hits... Same with Uair and Fair's looping hits.

Charge Shot isn't transcendent and neither is Aura Sphere. Pretty sure Shadow Ball is. So...? Being able to negate projectiles with projectiles can be considered a good thing. I don't think they have this mechanic in place, but they could do something where charged projectiles like this "eat" weaker projectiles instead of having to rely on transcendent or not. So, if Ryu fires a Hadouken, it'll negate other projectiles and this would be the same for Samus, Lucario, and Mewtwo firing their uncharged projectiles, but if they use their fully-charged ones, it would "eat" the weaker projectiles and continue on. Against other charged projectiles, they should just negate each other and against transcendent projectiles, it'll be the same. So, Falco fires his Blaster and Samus fires her Charge Shot uncharged or charged, his will pass through and hit and so will Samus's.

As for Missiles, again... Recoil damage? So, if Samus gets hit while launching it, it could just explode in her face and damage both her and her opponent. There you go, now both parties are going to get hurt. Can't help with shorter folk running under projectiles since unless you're an idiot firing like a gangster, you're short, or you're crouching while shooting, there's not much you can change.
 
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White_Pointer

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Not going to comment on Missiles since yeah, it's an explosive, but if she had access to 2 kill projectiles that can be set up, it's going to be stupid.
Her super missile could kill in Melee. Just saying.
 

Darkmanticorex2

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Out of curiosity, do you guys consider z-air trying to snap to ledges that aren't ledges a problem / character redesign issue (battlefield's platforms)? This creates dead zones in Samus' ranged arsenal that interfere heavily with her keep away game.
 
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