Community Reference: Dealing with 'Jank' (Current: Sheik's Needle Camping & Customs Palutena)

[NickRiddle]

Geez... talk about being carried by your custom moves
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BZss1QUIwQ

This is just sad. At least learn how use the default character before capitalizing on Custom Abuse.

That's the Villager people keep saying is good?
Good joke.

 

[Splash Damage]

That's the Villager people keep saying is good?
Good joke.

Its unfortunate when one of the most controversial things occurring & the main reason numerous people are against a huge movement (a movement that could lengthen the lifetime of the game by years) is something that can be solved and avoided completely by looking at the amount of damage the balloons do.
Reminds me a lot of the first few days.
Back when Little Mac was "broken tier."
And they nerfed him because of all the free idiots crying wolf over him.
Point is, people need to stop complaining so fast about "broken" things that beat them just because they had no idea what to do against it. Things like Custom Villager, where the answer is right in front of their face but they're too salty to focus on fundamentals and being a good player to answer the strategy. These mindless complaints will kill this game's meta if they continue to dictate the pace of
nerfs, patches, and bans.

 

[Thor]

Can we at some point have a discussion of how to DI Mario's dthrow utilts? I've been told it's not real, etc., and as some characters I can escape it [hold down and R as Falcon], but others I struggle to get away [as Pikachu for instance].

I just want it added to the list of things to deal with at some point. I also suggest changing the thread title from "jank" to "specific fallible strategies" - they become mixup or things to avoid of a sort [ex: a Pikachu who only relies on thunder wave locks is pretty bad, but a Pikachu who is opportunistic isn't really relying on jank so much as choosing the optimal punish, and why you need to not set yourself up for it.]

Pinning this would also be cool - it would be a shame to make this beautiful thread that's sort of like an FAQ to dealing with X strategy, only to have it fall off the first page.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Geez... talk about being carried by your custom moves
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BZss1QUIwQ

This is just sad. At least learn how use the default character before capitalizing on Custom Abuse.

I noticed that Fox was able to pretty effectively deal with both Villager and Donkey Kong by simply being patient and staying in shield when necessary. I mean, DK has a lot of shield breaker options but Cyclone isn't one of them. (Pity about the windbox kill though.)

So given the premise "Villager ledgestall and airbender DK lose to patience and shielding," it seems to me that the best counterargument is that patient shield-heavy play is boring to execute/watch/etc. But, and correct me if I'm wrong, if one's argument against a given tactic is that countering said tactic isn't fun...is that even a real argument?

 

[Jaxas]

Hey everyone, sorry it took so long but it's finally ready! (And then Crashboards made it's triumphant return as I went to post this earlier...)

A few things before we begin​

• Everyone who's willing to help out and lab with this, @ Splash Damage is interested in labbing moves online against people; help him out! (I'd do it, but my internet is bad enough to make Smash legitimately unplayable online )
• If you're interested in helping with writeups/organizing/etc for this thread, send me a PM; the more people, the less likely things like this week's massive delay are to happen
• I'm going to start adding a "Small Tips" section to the OP for things that don't really require discussion (or have at least a solid start already; ZSS' Boost Kick is a good example: Mix up your DI between out and in, and hope the ZSS doesn't read it!). If you have things to add to that let me know!

Anyways, moving on to the main sections of this post...

Discussion Complete:
Dealing with 's Hammer (and Default) Spin Dash​

Overview​

Sonic's Spin Dashes are all a core part of his gameplan, and definitely see a lot of use by Sonic players at all levels. Hammer Spin Dash (Side Special #2) is considered to be almost a straight upgrade, however the default Spin Dash is nothing to scoff at either. We'll be focusing almost exclusively on the Side Special variant of Spin Dash in this, however much of it holds true for the Down Special variant as well.

The most important thing in dealing with Spin Dash is to know exactly what options are available to both you and the Sonic's in each situation, and selecting what to do from there. (Hammer) Spin Dash is a very mixup-based move, but once it hits your shield the odds are in your favor, not Sonic's.

Information and Things to Note​

• The charge of the Side Special variant only can be cancelled into shield at any time except when it's fully charged.
  • It's a very low-commitment move, and good Sonic players won't fully charge the move (as you can simply Spin Dash Charge -> Shield -> Spin Dash Charge).
• The Side Special version has a hop at the beginning, while the Down Special version can be charged quickly by mashing the Special button
• Sonic can jump out of the hop at the start of Spin Dash (as Hammer Spin Dash has a higher initial hop, this can be used for extra vertical recovery)
• Sonic can jump while Spin Dashing; this puts him in a special aerial state where he has a hitbox but has full aerial control
  • He also has heavy momentum however, which due to his low aerial friction means he cannot retreat; he can of course fly way past where he started, though
• Spin Dash actually has very low 'Priority' (disjoint/power), and many attacks when timed correctly will clank with it (or outright beat it)
• Hammer Spin Dash is intangible during the hop until Sonic starts moving downwards, and buries grounded opponents it hits
• Hammer Spin Dash takes a shorter amount of time to reach full charge
• Hammer Spin Dash is silent when released aerially (one less thing to react to)
• Hammer Spin Dash is slower (downwards hit), and as such is easier to shield on reaction

Dealing with the Move(s)​

Shoutouts to @Amazing Ampharos for providing much of the information for this writeup! (Seriously, go read this post after you've read this; it's where I got a lot of the info from, and has some other tidbits as well.)

Anyways, this time I'm going to break things down into each portion of the mixups that this move can do, and then go over the rest at the end.

The First Mixup: Spin Dash Charge​

Sonic has a few options while charging up (Hammer) Spin Dash. These are:

• Hold the Charge: Simply keep charging the move
• Shield: Instantly cancel the Spin Dash Charge into Shield (does not work once Spin Dash is fully charged!)
• Jump
  • This puts Sonic in a special jump state; he can move, but cannot release the charge until grounded again.
  • There appears to be only 1 jump height, which puts Sonic airborne for quite some time
  • If Sonic for some reason jumps (or is windboxed) offstage, he will die. He must touch the ground before doing any other option.
• Release: Simply release the charge (Leads into Mixup #2: The Hop)

The Second Mixup: The Hop​

Once Sonic releases the Spin Dash, he will hop. During this hop, he has a few options

• Jump: Sonic can jump out of any portion of the hop by using his midair jump
• Finish the Hop: Simply follow through with the hop
  • If this portion hits the opponent, it will attack them
  • Default Spin Dash: Simply a weak attack; similar to hitting with the grounded portion of Spin Dash
  • Hammer Spin Dash: Grounds the opponent when coming down, setting them up for a followup (generally Usmash for a kill). Hits aerial opponents upwards, and the initial (upwards) hit sets up for the second (downwards) hit.

The Third Mixup: Spin Dash hitting Shield (and Followups)​

Spin Dash, contrary to apparent popular belief, is indeed punishable on shield. It does require a read, however Sonic's options are limited and you are unlikely to get punished even if you select the wrong option (as long as you play smart, of course). His options at this time (and the followups from there) are:

• Jump upon hitting Shield
  • This puts Sonic above you, and you can either use a quick aerial OoS (if you have one) or chase down his landing options and punish them. He does have a few mixup options here, which are:
    • Using Spring (Up Special) after the jump, then returning down with an autocancelled Dair - Dair only goes the direction he's facing, and should lose to most strong upwards attacks. (Beats OoS aerial)
      
    • Homing Attack (Neutral Special) - Beats most landing trap options, but is extremely unsafe (both on shield and especially on whiff - spotdodge it!)
• Spin Dash through the Shield (-> Jump afterwards or simply continue spinning)
  • This puts sonic in a pretty poor position. Many characters can simply use a quick/ranged OoS option to hit him.

There are further uses to Spin Dash, and an even greater number of other applications for Hammer Spin Dash. A few of these are

• Escaping Juggles - Hammer Spin Dash is intangible (effectively invincible) for the majority of the move's startup (Frame unknown, but can safely trigger and avoid Bomb-omb & Smart Bomb Explosions), and can be jumped out of
• Recovery (and extending followups) - Hammer Spin Dash (and to a lesser extent Spin Dash) both jump upwards and can be jumped out of. This can be used to gain extra height on a second jump to chase aerial opponents as well. This can only be done if Sonic still has his double jump.
• Killing - While not an amazing killing tool, if Sonic grounds you at higher percents he can get an often lightly-charged Usmash (or Fsmash) for the kill (or even just for damage at lower percents)
  • At low percents the initial hits of Usmash won't un-ground you, so you should either not mash or mash very slowly if you see the Usmash coming.
  • Alternatively, if Sonic charges his smash for too long you can escape by mashing extremely fast

Reference: Full Discussion​

Starting Post -> This Post

Discussion Complete:
Dealing with 's Thunder Wave Followups​

Overview​

Pikachu has a few customs which are considered to be extremely good; Heavy Skull Bash and Thunder Wave. While Heavy Skull Bash is relatively straightforward (it's only strong up close!), Thunder Wave is another beast altogether. If landed (under very specific circumstances) it can even lead into an infinite combo!

Though the infinite is hardly relevant (it's extremely unsafe and situational to set up, while also requiring a massive downgrade to one of Pikachu's best tools, Quick Attack), there are a number of other things that Thunder wave can do, so it's still something to watch out for.

Information and Things to Note about Thunder Wave​

• Thunder Wave is a projectile with a similar path (though less range and damage) as the default Thunder Jolt which paralyzes on contact.
• Thunder Wave is extremely unsafe on block when used at the spacing required for the infinite
• The Stun Time is based on your percent, and is lessened with distance. The aerial hitbox of thunder wave does not appear to get weaker as it travels, however.

Dealing with the Move​

Although the infinite isn't relevant due to Meteor Quick Attack, the initial part can still set up for kills from Heavy Skull Bash.

Luckily, the Thunder Wave chain must be set up from a very specific spacing (or off of a missed tech), which also happens to be massively unsafe on shield. Pikachu has a few setups into the technique - namely Nair & Fthrow - but if you tech you'll be safe from this followup.
Make sure your teching is on point when against a Pikachu player! (This holds true for non-customs as well)

That said, if the opposing Pikachu catches you in the Thunder Wave chain, your only real option appears to be pray they mess up.

I'm also going to throw in a little note down here: I don't have any way of testing this, but it appears that if Pikachu is way above you and uses Thunder Wave he can potentially still get the infinite setup while not putting himself at much risk. This is because the aerial version of Thunder Wave stuns at full strength, so if he chooses to commit to it Pikachu can follow right behind the projectile. In theory, Pikachu can simply Quick Attack away if a punish attempt appears to be incoming.

I'm unsure of how safe this actually is however, and it's incredibly easy to react to and simply move out of the way (or shield).

Reference: Full Discussion​

Starting Post -> This Post




Sorry that the Pikachu writeup was a bit short, but it really seems pretty straightforward; avoid the unsafe attack and punish it.




Anyways...

Current Topics​

Topic A: How to DI 's Dthrow (minimizing damage or surviving)​

We need to figure out

• What Luigi can (usually) get from different DI inputs at Low, Medium, and High percents
• What kill setups Luigi has from grab
• How to avoid the grab

Topic B: How to fight (focusing on Helicopter Kick/Piston Punch)​

• This is going to be a slightly less focused topic, but there are many who consider this whole character 'Jank' so I figure I'll add a bit more than just HK/PP

Other Stuff​

Added to the "To Cover" list:

• Palutena: Super Speed, Lightweight, "Hallelu-hah"
• Ganondorf: Dark Fists, Wizard's Dropkick
• Rosalina & Luma: Luma Warp
• Fox: Jab Lock (-> Smash)
• Mario: Dthrow Combos

I'll be making the "Small Tips" writeup about the following topics as well once I get home later this evening:

• Zero Suit Samus: Boost Kick DI
• Mewtwo: Confusion

I also suggest changing the thread title from "jank" to "specific fallible strategies" - they become mixup or things to avoid of a sort [ex: a Pikachu who only relies on thunder wave locks is pretty bad, but a Pikachu who is opportunistic isn't really relying on jank so much as choosing the optimal punish, and why you need to not set yourself up for it.]

Pinning this would also be cool - it would be a shame to make this beautiful thread that's sort of like an FAQ to dealing with X strategy, only to have it fall off the first page.

I have it as 'Jank' mostly because I'm already having to abbreviate the topics to fit it in the thread title's character limit

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Disclaimer: I don't use Luigi, so I'm basing this off of observation.

It seems that Luigi's most notable kill option off of dthrow is Luigi Cyclone. This can be DI'd down to avoid the final hit but Luigi can simply not mash as hard in order to follow you down. (Queston: If he does that and you don't DI down, do you pop out before the final hit?)

Other options that I've seen kill are nair, RAR bair, and dair. (Luigi's dair has a new meteor sweetspot.) Fair and uair seem to be combo fodder instead of kill moves.

Regarding Brawler, was the One Inch Punch patched out or not?

 

[Lavani]

At low percents, DIing dthrow toward Luigi puts you behind him and prevents him from stringing fairs into regrab/stuff. It doesn't prevent followups (unless Luigi's on full autopilot), but it does prevent the most dangerous one.

SDIing down during Luigi Cyclone forces Luigi to not rise as quickly, which impacts its kill lower significantly to the point where he may as well go for nair instead.

(Queston: If he does that and you don't DI down, do you pop out before the final hit?)

(Luigi's dair has a new meteor sweetspot.)

Regarding Brawler, was the One Inch Punch patched out or not?

- You do not.
- Do you mean that it's in a different spot compared to previous games? Because it's had a spike sweetspot since Melee at least.
- One Inch Punch was weakened significantly. It might still have kill potential on a stage like Halberd.

 

[Thor]

If it's abbreviated to 'jank' because of space considerations I understand 100%.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

At low percents, DIing dthrow toward Luigi puts you behind him and prevents him from stringing fairs into regrab/stuff. It doesn't prevent followups (unless Luigi's on full autopilot), but it does prevent the most dangerous one.

SDIing down during Luigi Cyclone forces Luigi to not rise as quickly, which impacts its kill lower significantly to the point where he may as well go for nair instead.


- You do not.
- Do you mean that it's in a different spot compared to previous games? Because it's had a spike sweetspot since Melee at least.
- One Inch Punch was weakened significantly. It might still have kill potential on a stage like Halberd.

I was under the impression Luigi's dair could not spike (or meteor, whatever) until 4. At the very least I've literally never seen it happen.

 

[Kofu]

I was under the impression Luigi's dair could not spike (or meteor, whatever) until 4. At the very least I've literally never seen it happen.

IIRC the meteor sweetspot in Brawl was on his hands or something. It was super rare to land it. Now I believe it's on his feet.

 

[Thor]

I was under the impression Luigi's dair could not spike (or meteor, whatever) until 4. At the very least I've literally never seen it happen.

Luigi dair launching downward has been in every game. In Smash 64 it's a drill spike [with no strong horizontal hitbox], in all other games I'm pretty sure it's like on his hips [so I usually aim to hit with his hands so the hip hitbox connects and not the normal one]. It's a meteor in Melee and Brawl so not very useful because of meteor cancelling [though in Brawl it was more useful].

 

[NouveauRétro]

I don't know if this is been posted here but I saw somebody mention it on reddit. Has anyone considered countering Villager by using Kirby's custom Down B, the Meteor Stone? That thing spikes and will probably stop villager from doing anything on the ledge.

Have you seen Mike Kirby vs. Capt. awesum at smash attack yet?

 

[Unknownkid]

Have you seen Mike Kirby vs. Capt. awesum at smash attack yet?

The time he posted that suggestion was way before the actual match happened.

 

[NouveauRétro]

The time he posted that suggestion was way before the actual match happened.

I knew, just curious. Probably should have made it a PM or something, sorry for off topic post.

 

[Nexin]

Can somebody tell me what about Mii Brawler causes most people to consider him jank? I don't know anybody who plays the character, so I am very unfamiliar with him.

 

[Unknownkid]

Can somebody tell me what about Mii Brawler causes most people to consider him jank? I don't know anybody who plays the character, so I am very unfamiliar with him.

How about youtube some matches of him? Like videos from ZeRo's channel or look up Dapuffster matches.

 

[Nexin]

Okay. I'm starting to see what issues people might have with him. I'll go into the lab later to see if I can figure out anything about him.

 

[Splash Damage]

A few things before we begin​

• Everyone who's willing to help out and lab with this, @ Splash Damage is interested in labbing moves online against people; help him out! (I'd do it, but my internet is bad enough to make Smash legitimately unplayable online )

Thanks for getting the word out there, currently still thinking of ways to do this in the most efficient way possible. Anyonw who's interested just message me, I'll get something together. Already got Paranoid Drone in on the labbing, and any extra hands would be appreciated.

 

[warriorman222]

Let me just nominate 2 Doubles exclusive strats: MLG Ball and Instant-Bucket. The former is a combination of Villager and Lucario's Snaring Aura Sphere, and when Pocketed, glitches up and multiplies all 3 hits into one by 1.9, causing massive damage and an OHKO. Insta Bucket is G&W paired with either Pikachu or Mega Man, using Thunder/ Charge Shot to instantly fill the Bucket and release an OHKO.

So... Helicopter Kick. I don't know that much about it, but I'll try and give a step-by step of things to do if you're grabbed at kill percent:
1. Dthrow: DI towards the stage. This increased the chance for them to miss, reduces Heli-Kick range.
1.5 Fair strings: VI down and towards the stage. This increases their chance of missing, forces you to go lower possibly causing them to SD, and reduces range the most.
2. Heli-KIck. SDI(or if you can't, DI) inward the first few hits, giving you a chance to pop out and putting you a little further from the blastzone. On the final blow, hold inwards, making you go flying a shorter distance.
Using all the above, I've managed to survive the move to the point where it stop comboing. After that, Mii Brawler will have serious trouble killing you until 120-150%.

Piston punch is hardly an issue anymore now that One-Inch Punch has been fixed.

 

[NickRiddle]

Let me just nominate 2 Doubles exclusive strats: MLG Ball and Instant-Bucket. The former is a combination of Villager and Lucario's Snaring Aura Sphere, and when Pocketed, glitches up and multiplies all 3 hits into one by 1.9, causing massive damage and an OHKO. Insta Bucket is G&W paired with either Pikachu or Mega Man, using Thunder/ Charge Shot to instantly fill the Bucket and release an OHKO.

So... Helicopter Kick. I don't know that much about it, but I'll try and give a step-by step of things to do if you're grabbed at kill percent:
1. Dthrow: DI towards the stage. This increased the chance for them to miss, reduces Heli-Kick range.
1.5 Fair strings: VI down and towards the stage. This increases their chance of missing, forces you to go lower possibly causing them to SD, and reduces range the most.
2. Heli-KIck. SDI(or if you can't, DI) inward the first few hits, giving you a chance to pop out and putting you a little further from the blastzone. On the final blow, hold inwards, making you go flying a shorter distance.
Using all the above, I've managed to survive the move to the point where it stop comboing. After that, Mii Brawler will have serious trouble killing you until 120-150%.

Piston punch is hardly an issue anymore now that One-Inch Punch has been fixed.

You were surviving until about 85? Smawler can combo until then... And if you're living, Smawler is messing up.

 

[TheAnomaly]

Luigi down throw DI is very peculiar because it goes against the natural combo DI most people use (to get away from the character).

• At low %s under 20% for sure, you want to hold up and behind luigi. This increases your knockback and only allows him to get an up air or Bair follow up instead of multiple Fairs and a possible regrab or smash. You can attempt to mix up your DI to confuse him but this is generally the safest option.
• At mid %s you want to hold up and in front of luigi as he can only get one Fair or up air or possibly a RAR Bair.
  
• At death %s you want to mix up your DI as much as possible to attempt to avoid the cyclone and the Bair and the Nair and the occassional up b. To my knowledge, regardless of your choice the luigi player can still always get one of these followups if he follows you properly but you can delay his timing by mixing up your DI to possibly confuse him. Obviously you want to avoid the earliest killing options which are Up b and the rising cyclone but sometimes DI'ing into a path that would get you caught by them will confuse the luigi player long enough for you to possibly have an escape option

These are the conclusions I have come to with my labwork and practice against luigi. Feel free to correct me on any misinformation I provided. As for Mii brawler I'm fairly certain that @ Jigglymaster (dapuffster himself) has stated many times that the best way to escape that move is to DI up and behind brawler to make it as hard as possible for the brawler player to connect the upb.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Insta Bucket is G&W paired with either Pikachu or Mega Man, using Thunder/ Charge Shot to instantly fill the Bucket and release an OHKO..

HOW TO PREVENT INSTANT BUCKET FOREVER:

1. Connect your Wii U/3DS to the internet
2. Download any patch version 1.0.4 or beyond(I recommend 1.0.6 because you can get Mewtwo in that one)
3. Now play the game.

Now Thunder only gives one bar! Case closed.

 

[Splash Damage]

Last night, myself and @ ParanoidDrone did a heavy amount of labbing against Kong Cylone to test out how many more autolink moves can punish KC, in a similar fashion to Shiek. We are happy to report a few things for the characters we tested:

If Little Mac is not hit by the first hitbox of KC, he can Up B into the Windbox that sends him and DK rocketing upward to get a kill at 50% with no rage on FD. Timing and positioning is very, very specific, but all other outcomes/windboxes still bring DK to a very high spot when Mac's up B finishes, almost all leading to kills at ~75%.

This one was unfortunately a bit less fruitful than we had hoped. Seeing as neither of us are Rob mains, our options were limited and difficult to test. The best option seems to be to ride the vertical windbox and carefully time your Up Air to interrupt the second hit, bringing you both to the top blastzone. Unfortunately enough, this doesn't kill reliably until ~100-120%, rage affecting. During testing, Paranoid and I couldn't seem to get the second Up Air even when using the fastest Up B custom due to the angle it sent DK being inconsistent, though I'm almost certain someone like Chibo/Oracle could get it to work with a lot of practice.

Rosalina seemed to have the strangest properties with her F-air to interrupt the Cyclone. Oddly enough, it appeared to work almost always without fail, though the properties of it and the way she got carried were all incredibly odd and borderline inconsistent. I'd go on further, but I assume Paranoid would do a much better job explaining how exactly it happened better than I could.

 

[warriorman222]

You were surviving until about 85? Smawler can combo until then... And if you're living, Smawler is messing up.

Until around 75(A little lower with Default), and at that point I ended up getting gimped or killed. Also, when I DI'ed it the way I mentioned earlier, mmost Brawlers and Smawlets I fight messes it up, and when they don't I might survive. Emphasis on *might*. They still have to risk SDing to go out far enough to kill me, so obviously my advice is not foolproof, but it helps a little, right?
Right?

So anyways, How do people not get grabbed? I mean, you can just say "play safe once you're closer to the blastline", but there's got to be more to say. Would trying to wall the Brawler out and push forward help?

 

[Splash Damage]

So anyways, How do people not get grabbed? I mean, you can just say "play safe once you're closer to the blastline", but there's got to be more to say. Would trying to wall the Brawler out and push forward help?

Just abuse your fastest, safest moves and grab him yourself. For your purposes as a Brawler, that'd be Jab and likely your tilts. Tilt, then stuff his grab with a Jab.
As an aside, I'm assuing the Mii in your mainlist represents Brawler? If so, just take note of what makes you feel pressured when you play the character. Boom, there are the Brawler's weaknesses to exploit. I'm assuming it would be the latter, just spam your safest moves and stuff his grabs. Brawler's would get flustered when they can't grab at the, as Dapuffster puts it, 'Golden Opportunity.'

 

[Jigglymaster]

Sometimes when you're at that golden percentage its just better to stay in the middle of the stage even if it means to get hit. Infact you probably want to get hit on purpose so his kill potential tremendously decreases. Like if he's charging at you when you're at the ledge, roll behind him, even if he reads it there will be nothing in his arsenal that will be able to kill you at the golden percentage, and if he does damage you, you exit that golden percentage. So its a win-win situation for you. I know it sounds counter-intuitive to let yourself get hit, but it really works against this character.

The thing that seperates the good mii brawlers from the best are the ones that can secure their kills when their opponents are good enough to not get grabbed at golden percents. To play as and against this character you have to have a lot of percentage awareness as well as rage awareness.

 

[warriorman222]

Just abuse your fastest, safest moves and grab him yourself. For your purposes as a Brawler, that'd be Jab and likely your tilts. Tilt, then stuff his grab with a Jab.
As an aside, I'm assuing the Mii in your mainlist represents Brawler? If so, just take note of what makes you feel pressured when you play the character. Boom, there are the Brawler's weaknesses to exploit. I'm assuming it would be the latter, just spam your safest moves and stuff his grabs. Brawler's would get flustered when they can't grab at the, as Dapuffster puts it, 'Golden Opportunity.'

Yes, Mii counts as Brawler, but he is now my fourth most used character in favor or Little Mac, Villy, and Ganon in that order. Yeah, I get what you mean though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Rosalina seemed to have the strangest properties with her F-air to interrupt the Cyclone. Oddly enough, it appeared to work almost always without fail, though the properties of it and the way she got carried were all incredibly odd and borderline inconsistent. I'd go on further, but I assume Paranoid would do a much better job explaining how exactly it happened better than I could.

So jumping at Kong Cyclone and hitting it with Rosalina's fair is pretty simple to time, honestly. The wrinkle comes in the form of Luma. (Surprise surprise, said no one ever.) Rosalina's fair is multihit and autolinking, but Luma's fair hits people up. Normally this isn't a problem since Rosalina's fair intercepts the target and traps them, but more than once Rosalina was simply moving too fast to catch DK, which resulted in the hilarious situation of Rosalina flying clear across FD (without taking damage, mind you) while DK rockets upward.

But once Rosalina rides the windbox and hits DK with her fair, the followups basically write themselves although I don't believe any are guaranteed until high %. At low %, they end up next to each other and Rosalina can use basically any aerial except bair. DK can airdodge, but then Rosalina can wait it out. Yay guessing games. At mid %, Rosalina can fade back after the final hit of fair and try to follow up with Luma Warp into whatever. At high % she doesn't need to bother fading back.

I want to stress again that I'm not certain she has anything airtight on DK, but it does put him in a bad position. (Namely, in the air vs. Rosalina.)

 

[Pyr]

Topic A: How to DI 's Dthrow (minimizing damage or surviving)
We need to figure out

• What Luigi can (usually) get from different DI inputs at Low, Medium, and High percents
• What kill setups Luigi has from grab
• How to avoid the grab

What Luigi can (usually) get from different DI inputs at Low, Medium, and High percents

What kill setups Luigi has from grab

First thing to note: Luigi cannot NOT get a re-grab if he has a high amount of rage, unless the character specific combo is FAir > Nair. They just get popped to high when DI'ing away and up.

Low (0-20%): Character Specific: Fair > (Nair, Fair, UAir). Frame 3-6 aeirals beat out a re-grab if DI's up+away. If he reads this, you get regrabbed due to shield grabs. Some characters will get re-grabbed at this percent regardless of DI. At this percent, DIing towards and up doesn't do much.

Can also get a strong DAir for a grab reset. It's not true, so, if they keep doing it, hit them out of it.

Can lead to U-Tilt chains, or Jab/D-Tilt Shenanigans.

Low-Mid (21%-48%): Fair > (Nair, Fair, UAir), Character Specific. Only on specific characters will this lead to a re-grab. Can DI Towards and Up to pop above him. If he misses the read, Fair pops you behind him, where the only followup is a late Uair or Bair. If he reads it, he can get an UAir Chain or a Dair strong for a regrab.

If he reads a reaction from you, he can DJ after FAir. Depending on reaction, he can do FF-Nair Late hit into more combos. The Tilt chains and jab setups stop working at 30ish%.

Mid (49%-70ish%): Regrabs become impossible. At around 70% on average, Fair hits too far to follow up when DI'd away. It becomes better to go for DAir, Nair (being above Luigi is bad), RAR Bair, or Up-B if this is done. DI'ing towards leads to going above him. Keeping this DI for a FAir lets FAir combo if he reads it and moves back slightly for FAir. If he reads it wrong, FAir hits too far away for anything but BAir.

NEVER AIRDODGE. YOU WILL HIT THE GROUND AND BE HELPLESS. EVEN IF IT AVOIDS PAIN, LUIGI CAN GROUND UP-B YOU AND KILL YOU AT THESE PERCENTS.

Mid-High (71%-100%): Same as Mid, but a rising NAir pops you up and sets you up for anything he wants... So long as he reacts correctly. Not many Luigi's do this. Vary your DI more, since, at these percents, Aerial Up-B starts killing. Most Luigi's will not go for this, because missing is a hard punish, but it's an option. If you don't know how to DI Down-B, this starts killing at 90ish%. See below to deal with it.

High (100%+): Down-B kills start working here when they aren't DI'd or you get set up into one. SDI down to force him to not press buttons to keep you in for the final hit. This forces the move to finish lower, allowing for deaths to occur much later (120%-140% or more) with minimal rage.

Bair Kills at the side (50% rage) at 120ish out of the throw. Be sure to DI away to make this much hader for Luigi.

NAir kills at 150% if it's staled a bit. It likely will be.

Up-B kills are guaranteed at 107%, give or take 10%. D3 is the latest to die from it, and those are roughtly the numbers I remember testing.

U-Air kills at 170%. You will never be killed by this, though, cause U-Throw starts killing here, too, and that is obviously a more guaranteed option.

How to avoid the grab

FireBall > Grab is common. Max range, if blocked or on hit, allows a grab. 3/4 range, only blocked allows a grab. 1/2 range and earlier, you leave shield/hit stun when/before Luigi leaves animation lock.

Matchup specifically, some characters can SH > attack before Luigi recovers (at various distances). On reaction, you can short hop, full hop, etc and be safe. Luigi's mobility in the air is so bad that he can't catch you with anything. If you ever read the fireball, you get a free soft punch.

Frame 5 or lower Jabs easily break grabs when shielding/PShielding/on hit. In order for a Luigi to get grabs on these characters, the Luigi needs to read and PS the jab.

His standing grab's range is ****, but it's frame 6. His Dashing grab's range is basically 1/2ish his fox-trot distance. Never land within this range of Luigi. He gets a free grab. He can be walled out of this range by various characters.

Patience beats the grab game. Strong zoning and "hit and run" tactics are hard for Luigi to deal with. It's why his worst MUs are MM, Rosa, and Sheik. Find the option that your character has to deal with it like this and you'll find that Luigi's grab isn't a huge deal.



Hope this helps you guys. Completely wreck my character! I want to see what you guys come up with.


Edit: There are things that don't directly combo and work as setups, and character specific things (Jiggs can't be re-grabbed with DI, period) that I didn't go into. If there are things like setups off of the first FAir (like Fireball frame traps), then that should be discussed later.

Edit2:

IIRC the meteor sweetspot in Brawl was on his hands or something. It was super rare to land it. Now I believe it's on his feet.

Was re-reading and this wasn't clarified. It's the entire hitbox for the very first frame of the hitbox.

 

[Thor]

Up-B kills are guaranteed at 107%, give or take 10%. D3 is the latest to die from it, and those are roughtly the numbers I remember testing.

By this do you mean "if they do it perfectly, nothing can save you" [like PM uthrow knee vs Falcon as most of the cast] or do you mean "if you DI in, you're dead"? I thought DIing [or vectoring or whatever] away let you avoid this...

 

[Pyr]

By this do you mean "if they do it perfectly, nothing can save you" [like PM uthrow knee vs Falcon as most of the cast] or do you mean "if you DI in, you're dead"? I thought DIing [or vectoring or whatever] away let you avoid this...

It's a true combo, but the spacing for it is very strict. It almost requires a DI Read because Up-B takes 8 frames to come out, but it works on all DI, at some percent ranges. Character specific. That said, landing it at that Percentage specifically after down throw (starting at 107% before the throw) guarantees death on everyone from Jiggs to D3.

 

[Gawain]

I noticed that Fox was able to pretty effectively deal with both Villager and Donkey Kong by simply being patient and staying in shield when necessary. I mean, DK has a lot of shield breaker options but Cyclone isn't one of them. (Pity about the windbox kill though.)

So given the premise "Villager ledgestall and airbender DK lose to patience and shielding," it seems to me that the best counterargument is that patient shield-heavy play is boring to execute/watch/etc. But, and correct me if I'm wrong, if one's argument against a given tactic is that countering said tactic isn't fun...is that even a real argument?

I would say yes it is. It's valid in that it's a game, damnit. It's supposed to be entertaining. It's too bad that Nintendo won't make the changes that would fix it, and so we have to deal with boring gameplay, but it doesn't make any less "valid" just because there is no other way around it.

But for the record I don't really think custom DK is all that bad. I actually have a good time playing vs him. Now custom Villager I'll avoid for the most part because it's just not fun at all, but DK? Nah man.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Hey this is slightly off topic, but I have a suggestion for a future topic: escaping the U-air > Uair ... > Up B from Meta Knight. If you don't know what I'm referring to, check out this video: https://youtu.be/ktGb-jimFC0 There are several instances of it throughout.
Ness was KOed at 51%, Samus at 57%, Sonic at 61%, Shiek at 65%, Marth and Falco at 71%...I'm sure a lot of it is a combination of rage/bad DI/etc. but still, I can't help but feel like at least being aware of this situation is important to some extent. I mean if WindKong had it's own chapter in this thread, I don't see why this shouldn't. Just a suggestion.

And on behalf of the community, thank you to everyone whose made contributions throughout this thread.

 

[Unknownkid]

Man, what happen to this thread?

Anyways...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX-7hCKpznw
Post this on the front page. @Overswarm is the hope for mankind

 

[PUK]

Hey this is slightly off topic, but I have a suggestion for a future topic: escaping the U-air > Uair ... > Up B from Meta Knight. If you don't know what I'm referring to, check out this video: https://youtu.be/ktGb-jimFC0 There are several instances of it throughout.
Ness was KOed at 51%, Samus at 57%, Sonic at 61%, Shiek at 65%, Marth and Falco at 71%...I'm sure a lot of it is a combination of rage/bad DI/etc. but still, I can't help but feel like at least being aware of this situation is important to some extent. I mean if WindKong had it's own chapter in this thread, I don't see why this shouldn't. Just a suggestion.

And on behalf of the community, thank you to everyone whose made contributions throughout this thread.

We can do it here. Uair chain into upB are true combo. No DI can save you, but each character has a very tight window where it kills. Know your character window and don't get grab/DA. It's exactly like the Old diddy Uthrow Uair or falcon Uair Knee.

 

[Ghostbone]

We can do it here. Uair chain into upB are true combo. No DI can save you, but each character has a very tight window where it kills. Know your character window and don't get grab/DA. It's exactly like the Old diddy Uthrow Uair or falcon Uair Knee.

From memory you can DI the MK up-air directly above him making it a lot harder for him to link both hits of up-b

I mean it's all down to the MK messing up but it's not like you can't make it more difficult for him to execute.

 

[Jaxas]

WOW I'M TERRIBLE, HOW'D I FORGET ABOUT THIS

Gonna get to work on reviving this thread; sorry everyone!



(By the way, gonna post a reminder again that I'm looking for people to help me run this and keep it updated - I'm not going to have the time to reliably update this every week. Thanks!)

 

[Jaxas]

Okay, so after a massive delay, the writeups are finally here!

Discussion Complete:
How to DI (& avoid) 's Dthrow (for Minimizing Damage or Survival)​

Overview​

Luigi, a character who's never been considered very strong in past games, finally has his time to shine here in Smash 4. One of the biggest changes allowing him to become a high-tier contender in this game is the massive reward he gets from his Dthrow, and the ability to set up his dash grab with a well-timed Fireball certainly helps as well!
When fighting Luigi, your best option is to take advantage of his poor mobility and keep him out with projectiles/disjointed moves/etc. When he gets in, it's not just his grab to be scared of!
If you've already been caught by his grab though, you definitely need to know what your DI options are.

Once you've been grabbed by Luigi, you need to keep in mind what percent you're at and mix up your DI from there. You'll certainly be taking damage, but it's always better to take less damage!

Information and Things to Note​

• Fireball to Grab setup
  • At Max Fireball range, can grab you both on Block and on Hit.
  • At 3/4ths max Fireball distance, can only get a guaranteed grab on Block.
  • At 1/2 max Fireball range and under, doesn't get anything guaranteed (You leave shield/hitstun at the same time as or even before Luigi ends the Fireball throwing animation)
• Most of 's Dthrow followups are guaranteed, to a point. He is essentially guaranteed something no matter the DI, however he has to react to (or anticipate) your DI correctly to get the reward. You'll have to mix things up to avoid the maximum damage!
• 's main weakness as a character is that he has low mobility. If you play patiently, with strong zoning and/or Hit-and-Run tactics, has a hard time. This should be your main gameplan going into any match against !

Dealing with the Moves​

First up, Fireball.​

As stated earlier, Luigi can get guaranteed grabs off of a Fireball confirm at different ranges. Use this table to know how to avoid these:

Portion of Max Fireball Range | Grabbable on Shield? | Grabbable on Hit?
1/2 or less | No | No
~3/4ths | Yes | No
Max Range | Yes | Yes

The general rule is that if you're at max range, you need to run away (or jump, or otherwise avoid it). Whether you block (even if you Perfect Shield!) or get hit, you'll get grabbed and Dthrown and nobody wants that.

At half range, take the hit (if you can; at higher percents this is likely a bad idea due to increased hitstun) and punish the grab attempt.

At close range, laugh that the Luigi used Fireball point-blank and hit him for it (or retreat depending on the situation).

Next, we have the main section: Luigi's Dthrow.​

At Low Percents (0% to 20%), depending on your character gets Fair into Nair, Fair, or Uair. Doesn't really seem DI-able, but I'd recommend Up+Away from because that seems to at least make it more difficult.
If you have an aerial that is frame 3-6 it will beat any re-grab attempts, however he can shield the aerial and grab you. It's a 50:50 situation, so be sure to mix it up!
can also get a strong (spike) Dair that sets up for a Grab (but it's not a true combo - hit them for it!). He can also go for Utilt chains or Jab/Dtilt stuff after this.


At Mid-Low Percents (21% to 48%), Fair still leads into Nair, Fair, or Uair. Only specific characters can be re-grabbed at this percent range.
During this range, you can DI up & towards to pop up above him. He can still hit you here, but if he misses the read then Fair will hit you behind him meaning he can only get you with a late Uair/Bair as a followup. If he does read it, can get a Uair chain or a strong Dair to re-grab attempt.
If reads your reaction after the Fair, he can Double Jump into other moves (depending on what your reaction was). Fast-falled late Nair sets up for more combos is one common one.
Also, the Tilt chains and jab setups stop working at around 30%.


At Mid Percents (49% to ~70%), re-grabs are no longer possible. DI-ing towards will put you above him, and doing so allows Fair to combo into itself longer than usual (but if he mis-reads it, you're only getting Fair->Bair'd).

Also... NEVER AIRDODGE. You'll hit the ground and be helpless. While this can avoid percentage, it also puts you on the ground in lag, and all has to do is FF into a Fire Jump Punch (sweetspot Uspecial) which kills at these percents!


At Mid-High Percents (71% to 100%), things are similar to Mid Percents however rising Nair will hit you upwards, and set up for basically anything wants to do (though he has to react correctly). Mix up your DI here as well, because aerial FJP does start killing at these percents however it requires a DI read (and a whiff gets you a hard punish!). Luigi Cyclone starts killing at around 90% as well if you don't know how to DI it!


At High Percents (100% and up), Luigi Cyclone starts killing.
Bair kills horizontally at around 120% (with 50% rage), but DI-ing away from makes this harder to land (though also puts you closer to the blast line if he does get it).
Nair kills at ~150% staled a bit (which is likely).
Fire Jump Punch (sweetspotted Uspecial) kills everyone at 107% (give or take ~10% depending on the character).
Uthrow kills at 170%, as a last resort.

Also, you will need to know how to deal with Luigi Cyclone.​

If you (S)DI this move downwards, you will escape the move if they mash all the way up. You will still be caught if they lessen their mashing, however this is still preferable because it means the final, killing blow doesn't connect as high up (and therefore you have to travel further to die). If you DI the move horizontally, you can survive until around 120%-140% depending on your character!

Conclusion​

Luigi is a character with ridiculously high reward from his Dthrow, and while it's all more or less guaranteed you can minimize the damage if you out-guess him in a bunch of 50:50 situations. With the knowledge of the mixups available to each of you, hopefully you'll be able to escape some damage from 's Dthrow combos.
And always remember: is only scary up close, so if you can keep him away from you you'll win!

Reference: Full Discussion​

• Starting Post -> This Post

Discussion Complete:
How to fight (with a focus on Helicopter Kick/Piston Punch)​

Overview​

Mii Brawler is an extremely strong character with reliable, sub 80% kills against players who don't know how to fight him.
Since few people have Brawler matchup experience (not allowed on For Glory combined with the relative lack of Mii mains due to rulesets being up in the air regarding their legality), this makes the problem that much worse and the cries for him being 'broken' even louder.
While I'm no expert on the MU (I have minimal experience myself), hopefully I've found enough information to at least help people out!

Information and Things to Note about Mii Brawler​

First things first: If you missed it, the One Inch Punch exploit has been patched out of the game (this happened as of the Mewtwo patch)! I've still heard a few people talk about this lately, so I figured it needed to be stated.

Anyways...

• As with all Mii Fighters, can come with any of 9 different (not simply attribute changes, completely different) special moves.
• Also like all other Mii Fighters, can come in one of many (2,916 to be exact!) Height and Weight combinations.
  • Luckily the differences between Height and Weight on the s don't change them super drastically (though it still definitely affects a lot about them).
  • General categories are "Tall", "Medium", and "Short" for heights, and "Fat", "Average", and "Thin" for weights. For the preferred versions seem to be Short & Thin (0/0), Short & Fat (0/100) or Default (seemingly only when the rules don't allow anything but guest s).
  • Mii Fighter Attributes & Changes Reference:
    • Short (Minimum Height)
      • Faster speed (much faster)
      • Higher jumps
      • Less cooldown on attacks (less end/landing lag)
      • Smaller Hurtbox (harder to hit)
      • Less knockback on attacks (Very slight; ~1% difference)
      • Less range on most (not all) attacks
      • Less distance on Rolls
    • Tall (Maximum Height)
      • More knockback on attacks (Very slight; ~1% difference)
      • More range on most (not all) attacks
      • More distance on Rolls
      • Bigger Hurtbox (easier to hit)
      • Lower jumps
      • More cooldown on attacks (more end/landing lag)
    • Thin (Minimum Weight)
      • Faster Speed (slight)
      • Higher Jumps
      • Lighter weight (dies earlier)
      • Does less damage (generally by 1%)
      • Less hitstun on attacks (very slight; due to damage reduction)
    • Fat (Maximum Weight)
      • Heavier weight (dies later)
      • Does more damage (generally by 1%)
      • More hitstun on attacks (very slight, due to damage increase)
      • Slower speed (slight)
      • Lower jumps
• Helicopter Kick's power comes largely from it's high Base Knockback, which makes Brawler's kill power heavily dependent on stage positioning.
• Brawler's general attributes:
  • Extremely High mobility specs, both on the ground and in the air. (I'll update this with speed rankings for the different sizes later)
  • is a Rushdown character.
  • Has great throw followup potential (including kills at extremely low percents, even around 45% depending on where you're grabbed!)
  • Predictable (but deadly if challenged wrong) recovery. Generally short range, as his 2 best Uspecials (Helicopter Kick and Piston Punch) have relatively low vertical range. Horizontal recovery is fine, though.
    
  • Below-average range (even shorter as Short )
  • Fast, high-damage, lingering aerials with high combo potential (Dthrow -> Falling 1st hit of Fair can 'Pillar', similar to Melee )
  • Can have a projectile; his default Neutral Special is "Shot Put" is a very unique projectile with an interesting trajectory. I highly recommend trying it out to see it's path and range, as I don't have a gif to provide.
• Common custom loadouts
  • 1122 (Shot Put, Onslaught, Helicopter Kick, Feint Jump)
  • 2122 (Ultimate Uppercut, Onslaught, Helicopter Kick, Feint Jump)
  • 1132 (Shot Put, Onslaught, Piston Punch, Feint Jump)
  • 2132 (Ultimate Uppercut, Onslaught, Piston Punch, Feint Jump)
  • 2222 aka "The Apex Ruleset Version" (Ultimate Uppercut, Burning Dropkick, Helicopter Kick, Feint Jump)

Dealing with the Character​

Mii Brawler is a speedy powerhouse who can easily wrack damage and even kill with Dthrow -> Helicopter kick as low as 45% if you're not careful. However, if you can live past where he has easy setups into kill moves, he actually has a more difficult time killing you as he has to rely on reads with his Smash attacks.

As such, your goal should be to survive until high (~80%+) percents and play safely from there!
This is, of course, much easier said than done. What you need to pay the most attention to, however, is your stage positioning.

Also... Don't let him take you to Smashville. It's easily his best stage, and can get you killed at 0% if you're on the platform!

's Dthrow to Helicopter Kick is an incredibly good kill option, however it only kills if you're grabbed near the edges of the stage! If you're in the middle of the stage (or facing across the stage, of course, but then watch out for pivot grabs!) you're generally fairly safe, since Helicopter Kick doesn't seem to have that high of Knockback Growth (increased distance with damage).

If you do get caught in the Helicopter Kick, you still have a few things you can do.

1. Smash DI (or just DI if you can't SDI) inwards for the first few hits. This gives you a chance to pop out, and also pushes you further from the blast zone (which of course lets you live longer)
2. Hold inwards (towards the stage) for the final hit as survival VI.

Also, if you get caught in a Dthrow and think you're about to be Helicopter Kicked, you should DI towards the stage. This is the DI you should be doing as the Helicopter Kick happens, and it also forces them to react to your DI or they miss! On top of this, it also moves you that little bit further from the blast zone, meaning you live longer as well!

If you get caught in 's Fair strings, you'll apparently want to VI down & towards the stage.

Also, @ Jigglymaster (one of the driving forces behind this character; he definitely knows his stuff) has this to say:

Sometimes when you're at that golden percentage its just better to stay in the middle of the stage even if it means to get hit. Infact you probably want to get hit on purpose so his kill potential tremendously decreases. Like if he's charging at you when you're at the ledge, roll behind him, even if he reads it there will be nothing in his arsenal that will be able to kill you at the golden percentage, and if he does damage you, you exit that golden percentage. So its a win-win situation for you. I know it sounds counter-intuitive to let yourself get hit, but it really works against this character.

Conclusion​

In the end, the most important thing to do against Brawler is to stay in the middle of the stage, and even take chip damage until you're out of Dthrow->Helicopter Kick range.
As @ Jigglymaster stated, if you're at the ledge you'll probably want to roll through him - even if you get punished, you're closer to center stage so you're very unlikely to die and you're that much closer to the percent where requires a read to kill you.
Also, as has relatively low range, you'll want to try and space him out with quick, disjointed moves; these apparently give him a lot of trouble!

Reference: Full Discussion​

• Starting Post -> This Post

Also, shoutouts to @Esquire for making his Brawler Guide - it's where I got a lot of the Mii data from.

And now, the New Topics!
Topic A: How to punish 's Needle Camping (both Default & Penetrating Needles)​

• Frame data for Needles (Startup & total frames)
  
• Who can punish at different ranges

Topic B: Dealing with (customs) : Super Speed, Lightweight, and the "Hallelu-hah"​

• General Information on each customs
• Infinite Lightweight Glitch (and counterplay: hint, she's on a platform shark her)
• Avoiding the grab (and the Jab1->Grab)

So... yeah. Sorry this was so late, I'll do my best not to let that happen again. Again though, if anyone is willing to help me with this it would be extremely helpful!

 

[Jaxas]

While I'm here, I may as well write up some of the "Small Tips" I talked about before.

First up...

Small Tips: 's Boost Kick.​

Zero Suit Samus' Boost Kick is a very powerful attack, and an amazingly good (albeit risky) Out of Shield option.
Don't give up on your stock once you've been hit by it, though! Depending on a number of factors, you may very well be able to get out of it (or at least DI it to survive!)

First things first: the larger your character's frame is, the less likely you are to get out of this (, , , , , etc - sorry, you're probably just getting hit. Work on that survival DI!).

Anyways, the way Boost Kick actually works is as follows:

1. On Frame 4, the initial hitbox comes out. This is supposed to set up for the rest of the attack, but it's actually one of the move's weak points! This attack can be DI'd, and depending on which way you DI the player has to call you on which way you hit during the next portion of Boost Kick.
2. The next part of the move involves a handful of very weak hits as carries you up into the air. During this portion of the move, the can hold Forwards or Backwards and angle the move (try it out, the angle change is very noticeable). This is the portion where the player can follow your DI, guaranteeing the hit (...more or less. Boost Kick just has issues connecting on occasion, but it's not very common. Generally has to do with the spacing on the initial hit)
3. Last is the powerful spinning kick, which is the part that kills. If you mixed up your DI correctly (or the mis-spaced the Boost Kick), you're likely to simply fall out (or pop out above the kick) and survive; many characters can even punish for this by fast falling into a punish! However if you're hit, the DI you need to do changes depending on your height.
   1. If you're near the top of the screen, DI down and away from . You'll fly further horizontally, but it seems to transfer a lot of your upwards momentum into horizontal allowing you to survive better.
   2. If you aren't near the top of the screen, hold inwards. This lets you VI the horizontal knockback, and since Boost Kick hits up at an angle you're already likely to be aiming for the corner (aka Survival DI)

Also, Boost Kick has a Brawl carryover known as "RCO Lag" (Recovery CarryOver Lag) or "The Triple Jump Glitch", which is an extremely annoying bug where if you're hit out of a move and then land normally (no attack endlag) afterwards, you'll still incur all the landing lag from the move you used previously.

Basically, if you can say, jab out of Boost Kick and she hits the ground afterwards, she isn't able to move for almost a full second (this timeframe is a total guess, by the way; just guessing by feel). This lets you get a free punish, often times with a Smash.

I highly recommend against trying to go for this (if you mess up you're eating the Boost Kick, which is... strong, to say the least) but if it ever happens, keep that in mind!

Hopefully it gets patched soon

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Needle Storm Frame Data (Source: Kurogane Hammer)
Throw Startup (Partial Charge): F5
Throw Startup (Full Charge): F11
Needles take 13 frames to reach max distance once thrown. (I could have sworn someone said this was 5 frames in the character thread but it moves along at such a fast clip I can't find the post anymore. Whatever.)
Needles are stronger up close and weaker at a distance. They lose damage at frame 4, or a little under 25% of their max range.
No data for Penetrating Needles.

English Interpretation:
Partially charged needles start up faster than a full charge and are thus harder to react to (read: shield). That's an unusual thing I didn't expect. At max range, the time it takes for them to travel can give you a bit of leeway, but unless you're Sonic or something you probably can't punish it from max range anyway so that's a wash. I don't know how much cooldown she has on the move in general. A partial charge, having only 5 frames of startup when thrown, is probably unreactable. (Unless, again, you're at max range.)


Details on Lightweight, since I'd bet money its workings aren't common knowledge:
For 10 (maybe 15?) seconds, Palutena runs faster and jumps higher, as if Shulk were using his Jump and Speed arts simultaneously. In exchange, she takes 1.1x more damage. She does not become lighter, despite the move's name and basically every commentator ever's statement to the contrary. Once the effect wears off, Palutena starts flashing and moves much slower for 10 seconds. 5 seconds after that, she'll sparkle briefly to indicate the move is available for use again.

The Lightweight glitch involves standing on a fall-through platform, pressing down as if you want to fall through, then pressing B before falling. This lets you use Lightweight literally whenever you want, even if you're currently under the effects of the move already, currently slowed down afterwards, or waiting for the cooldown to end. The timing is strict but easy enough with practice. My current speculation/hypothesis is that the beginning frames of the fallthrough state are getting canceled by Lightweight and that this specific state isn't subject to the normal checks to prevent consecutive use of the move. Compare jump canceled usmashes and similar.

While under the effects of Lightweight, Palutena can get (probably guaranteed?) followups off of dthrow at basically any percent. dthrow > nair > dj uair in particular is a powerful kill combo if she reads the DI right since the nair will autolink and carry the target along her massive jump trajectory, resulting in easier uair kills now that you're closer to the upper blast zone. Her uair setups off of dthrow are known as the "Holy Hoo-Hah", "Hallelu-Hah", or "Hoo-Hallelujah" depending on who you ask.

Super Speed is much less complex in general (Palutena dashes forward with a hitbox, can cancel it with dash attack, dash grab, or jump, combos possible, note the possibility of jump canceled usmashes), but it's important to note that it has a 5 second cooldown after the move ends before it can be used again. When ready, a blue spark will appear briefly on Palutena.