Community Reference: Dealing with 'Jank' (Current: Sheik's Needle Camping & Customs Palutena)

[ParanoidDrone]

Found this video with some Sheik tech against Kong Cyclone.

 

[Splash Damage]

Found this video with some Sheik tech against Kong Cyclone.

This is a very interesting find, I wonder how other characters can use multihits to escape. Wonder if Little Mac can mash Nair during it to hit DK before the second hit then transition into the Nair-footstool-UpB for an early kill?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This is a very interesting find, I wonder how other characters can use multihits to escape. Wonder if Little Mac can mash Nair during it to hit DK before the second hit then transition into the Nair-footstool-UpB for an early kill?

That's actually an interesting thought. Little Mac's up special has F1 invincibility, I think. (Maybe just the grounded version? Not sure.) If it applies to the air version then it may actually be a solid answer to Kong Cyclone.

(Or even if not invincible since Rising Uppercut is kind of ridiculous in general.)

 

[Splash Damage]

That's actually an interesting thought. Little Mac's up special has F1 invincibility, I think. (Maybe just the grounded version? Not sure.) If it applies to the air version then it may actually be a solid answer to Kong Cyclone.

(Or even if not invincible since Rising Uppercut is kind of ridiculous in general.)

I know @Thinkaman is very knowledgeable on the topic of RU, but from what I know the first 3 frames have invincibility that goes away once the hitboxes come out, which explains its ability to escape numerous multihit moves and rapid jabs. If Mac times his Nairs right, then it should be an answer to Don-I mean Kong Cyclone.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Sonic's Hammer Spin Dash is something I've fought against a lot. It's a very good move that IMO is at the heart of why Sonic is such a strong character, but every character can very much deal with it. The important thing to realize when Sonic is spinning at you is that Sonic isn't really as high priority as he seems at first; if you correctly aim an attack right at him, your attack will usually win. Hammer Spin Dash is flexible in many ways but also locks in Sonic's trajectory; if you are grounded and Sonic does a HSD right at you, most up smashes will outprioritize and cleanly beat the move (and you should have time to get a lot of them out as well). It's character specific though so you might consider up tilts or up specials as appropriate (Rosalina just has such a great usmash I can keep going to that well personally). If you don't have a move you feel comfortable challenging with on the ground, doing a SH aerial to challenge can be great; many uairs work well here, and you are also engaging in risk mitigation. Since only a grounded opponent can be buried with Hammer Spin Dash, challenging from the air greatly reduces Sonic's potential reward.

Hammer Spin Dash can be jump canceled at any time during the animation much like default Spin Dash. If Sonic does a jump cancel just as he hits your shield, it creates a 50-50 mix-up for the defender. Sonic will have bounced back and then jumped too high for any of Sonic's aerials to be safe/effective (he can throw them out to try to stuff your movement or something, but they're always unsafe). You can just try to trap Sonic's landing, and if you are playing a good character, you should be able to move in a way that will deal with every aerial/airdodge in about the same way (just think about how your specific character does landing traps in general). Sonic's one true mix-up option is Homing Attack; if he does this, most of the good landing trap options you'd set will get stuffed. Of course, Homing Attack is a pretty unsafe option (the hardest punish is spotdodge -> whatever you want though as Rosalina specifically I have to be a bit more creative so Homing Attack can't gain safety by bouncing off Luma); it's a guessing game between you and the Sonic player with the odds in your favor... as long as you understand the guessing game and know what to do.

If Sonic delays his jump cancel until after he passes through your shield (or doesn't jump cancel at all), this will trap him into risky movement patterns. If you have either aerial speed or aerial disjoints, you can very likely jump OoS and bair Sonic depending on Sonic's spacing (with Rosa I get the bair about half of the time from a randomly spaced Sonic HSD, and those numbers shift based on our mutual footsies that determine how good his initial spacing is). While just blocking HSD all the time isn't a winning strategy, sometimes you don't have time to challenge it and should be aware that you can put the pressure on Sonic after blocking. HSD also takes a fairly long time (by Sonic standards) before it actually will hit way down on the ground where you're shielding so you almost always have time to at least shield on reaction.

Sonic likes to use HSD in the air as a juggle escape, recovery option, and mobility tool. Be very aware that to jump cancel HSD Sonic must have his double jump still. Thus, if you see a Sonic burn his double jump while recovering, you know that his options to use HSD in that recovery are limited (he can only safely use it to go to a ledge or the stage at that point). Sonics also like to use HSD on the stage as a "super jump"; HSD to jump cancel is a very fast way to move upward very quickly... but it's also very similar gameplay wise to Sonic just using raw Spring Jump so you should be able to answer it in similar ways while being aware that Sonic retains the ability to Spring Jump, burns his double jump, and moves slightly forward when choosing this option (the last point makes HSD a good chase option off forward throw, a throw Sonic otherwise finds little use for).

If Sonic grounds you, he'll often go for fsmash or usmash. Think a bit about how you mash out. At very low percent, the early hits of usmash often won't break you out of the ground so you should intentionally not mash (or mash VERY slowly) so Sonic will fail to cleanly connect with his punish if he goes for that. Alternatively, Sonic sometimes will get greedy and charge smashes, and if you mash really fast you can dodge the punish. When grounded you suffer less knockback from attacks. While this won't really protect you from usmash if you're at a high enough percent for the early hits to break you out of the ground (since you aren't grounded when the final, killing blow connects) it very well can protect you from fsmash. A lot of people don't realize that they have minor mix-up options as the victims of grounding moves; while it's always better not to get hit, if you do get hit, use your options! Also, as a character specific quirk, Bowser and DK (and ONLY these two, DDD, Charizard, Ganon, and others can't benefit) have goofy behavior against the HSD to usmash combo. If they hold down, they'll just fall out of the up smash. It's kinda weird and inconsistent with DK (you often need to wiggle with DK to get an SDI input to make it work, but it does happen with DK), but it's easy and reliable with Bowser and prevents Sonic's usmash from killing Bowser in that situation until 500-something percent which is hilarious when you see it in action and completely neuters Sonic's ability to convert Hammer Spin Dash into a kill against Bowser.

In general I suggest everyone should spent a little time playing as Sonic using all of his spinning moves and learning how the states work and which transitions are allowed. Even without customs, Sonic is confusing to fight against if you don't understand what he's allowed to do when he's spinning and which spinning states do what, but the MU makes a lot of sense once you get that stuff down. HSD is a powerful tool in Sonic's arsenal, but it's very much something every character can deal with and in the end really contributes more to the richness of the game's depth than anything else since it's a really interesting, unique tool for Sonic.

 

[Unknownkid]

Do you have any videos/replays on how you deal with HSD as Rosalina or any character? I will like to see Bowser surviving Upsmash at 500% lol.

 

[Splash Damage]

In general I suggest everyone should spent a little time playing as Sonic using all of his spinning moves and learning how the states work and which transitions are allowed. Even without customs, Sonic is confusing to fight against if you don't understand what he's allowed to do when he's spinning and which spinning states do what, but the MU makes a lot of sense once you get that stuff down. HSD is a powerful tool in Sonic's arsenal, but it's very much something every character can deal with and in the end really contributes more to the richness of the game's depth than anything else since it's a really interesting, unique tool for Sonic.

This piques my interest...I'm assuming we all have these customs, and not all of us have people that main these characters that we can fight at any time we want, so I wonder if we could all join up on a stream(or just use this thread), trade nnids, and join up to lab with these moves together. Won't be hard for any of us to mimic the basic strategies of the jank customs I assume, and it can be pretty efficient if we all have the moves and sets on standby for anyone's needs to lab. This could be a very good way to test out our theorycraft and have more of us than just Dunnobro w/Xanadu and AA be able to make these effective page long writeups, haha. Especially considering the character variety present here(I mean just here now we have Ros, Duck Hunt, Mac, ZSS, MK, Ness, Falcon, Shiek, Ganon, Wario, Charizard, WFT, & Palu just from what I remember), we could even join up on specific days on a stream to just hard lab against specific customs for the sole purpose of finding strategies to beat it with all our characters and fill the OP with all of our tried&true strategies and the VODs to back it up and provide examples, and even spread the strategies to beat the customs to the official customs thread...
This sound like a good idea to you guys?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This piques my interest...I'm assuming we all have these customs, and not all of us have people that main these characters that we can fight at any time we want, so I wonder if we could all join up on a stream(or just use this thread), trade nnids, and join up to lab with these moves together. Won't be hard for any of us to mimic the basic strategies of the jank customs I assume, and it can be pretty efficient if we all have the moves and sets on standby for anyone's needs to lab. This could be a very good way to test out our theorycraft and have more of us than just Dunnobro w/Xanadu and AA be able to make these effective page long writeups, haha. Especially considering the character variety present here(I mean just here now we have Ros, Duck Hunt, Mac, ZSS, MK, Ness, Falcon, Shiek, Ganon, Wario, Charizard, WFT, & Palu just from what I remember), we could even join up on specific days on a stream to just hard lab against specific customs for the sole purpose of finding strategies to beat it with all our characters and fill the OP with all of our tried&true strategies and the VODs to back it up and provide examples, and even spread the strategies to beat the customs to the official customs thread...
This sound like a good idea to you guys?

I'd be down for this. I'm in dire need of practice anyway, may as well contribute to research while I'm at it.

 

[Teshie U]

Found this video with some Sheik tech against Kong Cyclone.

Shouldn't this work for Sonic if he gets sucked him from the sides?

I can only imagine this works with any quick Uair with the right timing though. Multihits destroy cyclone though. That 3rd hit bouncing fish though...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Shouldn't this work for Sonic if he gets sucked him from the sides?

I can only imagine this works with any quick Uair with the right timing though. Multihits destroy cyclone though. That 3rd hit bouncing fish though...

I imagine any multihit aerial that uses the autolink angle would have potential. Sheik's rather fortunate since she can actually combo off the uair into the second uair but I'm not sure if Sonic can combo double fairs in a similar situation.

Other characters I can think of with vaguely similar aerials:

Mario dair (and SJP for a finisher if necessary?)
Rosalina fair
ROB uair
Palutena uair
Greninja uair
Samus uair (and fair?)
Pikachu bair
Kirby dair (offstage only because meteor)
Dedede uair
Mega Man uair? (idk but worth thinking about)
G&W uair? (not autolink but windboxes are weird)
Mewtwo nair
Zelda nair

Now I'm not actually suggesting that everyone on that list will work out as planned, but I was trying to think of multihit aerials that could conceivably make use of the autolink angle to carry DK pretty far by using the Kong Cyclone windbox to assist in movement. I'm honestly not even sure if all of them autolink to begin with.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Do you have any videos/replays on how you deal with HSD as Rosalina or any character? I will like to see Bowser surviving Upsmash at 500% lol.

The short answer is no. The long answer:

I have a good tournament set of me vs our region's strongest Sonic that will go up... eventually. It was me vs Junglechief at the KC Classic; the games were recorded I think but we're waiting on the KC Smash Bros guys to actually upload (the tournament was 10 days ago, still recent and as far as I can tell the Melee stuff is going up first). I have some footage of me vs him up from months ago, but it's really out of date and doesn't reflect the Rosa/Sonic MU as well as the recent set. I'd definitely like to show everything in action though; we have two very active HSD using Sonics in my local area so I run into this MU all the time. I just don't happen to have any good footage handy just as a sort of coincidence (off-stream matches/events where I don't run into them due to bracket shape).

As per the Bowser stuff, we never recorded it since it was something we found just toying around in friendlies but it's REALLY easy to reproduce. Just get a Bowser to high enough damage so the early hits of up smash will knock Bowser out of the ground but damage lower than the 500-something percent (around 100% is an easy spot that works cleanly). Ground Bowser with Hammer Spin Dash and then up smash him out of the ground. Have the Bowser player just hold down. You'll see him fall out of the bottom of Sonic's up smash and the last hit will whiff, and Sonic's up smash can never kill if the last hit doesn't connect. The connecting hits have very weak knockback growth so eventually holding down won't let Bowser out, but like I said it's very weak as in "the threshold is somewhere over 500%". Since a damage as high as 500-something percent will never happen in a real match, in effect Sonic cannot cleanly combo Hammer Spin Dash to up smash against Bowser (or DK generally). The exact threshold is probably variable with rage and freshness, but 500+% is such a huge number that you still never realistically run into the low end. This is an easy enough test that you should be able to do it by yourself in training mode with two controllers.

Note that Bowser's MU with Sonic is still very tough since he simultaneously struggles to keep up with Sonic's general mobility and with his huge body actually struggles to deal with pressure strings involving Homing Attack (Sonic bounces really far away due to how far away from the center of Bowser's body he makes contact; Homing Attack is very strong against the huge bodies), but he at least specifically deals with Hammer Spin Dash super well.

 

[thehard]

Here we go, Max Ketchum tweeted this out to his followers. It's very thorough: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sm5osi (Dealing with custom Villager)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

NinjaLink did a pretty long stream yesterday exploring tech to deal with Villager ledgestall as the entire cast.

Twitch VOD

EDIT with some highlights per character:
Fireball aimed at ledge, SH fair at ledge, Super Jump Punch invuln beats balloons and hits from onstage next to ledge, Gust Cape windbox if Villager fails to sweetspot
Down taunt, dair, Luigi Cyclone, they didn't bother testing past that because the down taunt is ridonkulous especially after ledge trump > forced regrab (Bouncing Fireball would probably work too)
Float ignores sapling, fair, Turnips spaced to hit the ledge, Light Veggie spam almost completely shuts down the balloons
dair next to ledge, dtilt, down angled ftilt, Fire Breath, general caveat to avoid attacking the balloons
SH fair at ledge, Egg Throw, Heavy Egg Roll super armors through balloons, Timed Egg Throw
Dair with strict spacing (can't meteor without hitting balloons), Guardian Luma (eh...), Floaty Star Bit (eh...), Luma Shot and Power Luma Shot at full charge for Luma invuln
Abandon Ship, Clown Cannon from offstage (also pierces balloons), thrown (Giant) Mechakoopa, Impatient Mechakoopa, Meteor Ejection, Clown Kart doesn't trip (but still takes light damage)
Wario Bike, Wario Waft and variants (sit back and wait for charge, also eat bikes for health and more charge)
Meteors out the wazoo (dair, fair, Headbutt, air Hand Slap), Spinning Kong offstage at ledge, super armor on Kong Cyclone and Stubborn Headbutt
Peanut Popguns aimed at ledge (fast enough to pop both balloons and force non-sweetspot regrab), charged Rocketbarrel Boost trade on regrab, Monkey Flip low offstage (dets balloons but grab release forces Villager even lower into blast zone)
Uair windbox to force ledge bypass, Oil Panic catches balloon explosions, dair meteor on initial hitbox, Trampoline Launch at ledge, Chef and variants to harrass
Super armor on smashes for easy trades (damage to self also builds KO meter faster), Grounding Blow in theory (wasn't tested on stream)
Bombs, Bow, and Boomerangs aimed at ledge, Giant Bombs det instantly when hit by balloon explosion (normally on a timer only), Meteor Bombs
Din's Fire all day every day, dair sweetspot trades
Air Needle Storm aimed at ledge, Burst Grenade and variants (Gravity Grenade can stagespike), Abyss is hilarious, spaced dair to spike from ledge, Penetrating Needles go through Lloid
Dair meteor (trades with balloons, or loses if badly spaced), Dark Dive grab dets balloons and forces falling grab release, maybe air Wizard's Foot or Ganoncide
Bombs, Bow, and Boomerangs aimed at ledge and variants thereof (esp. Short Fuse Bombs), Fire Arrows next to ledge auto-det balloons and force non-sweetspots
Slip Bomb offstage meteors, dair meteor trade, Mega Bomb ledge traps
Dsmash at ledge, hitting balloons with dsmash or Paralyzer stuns Villager too (no knockback), meteor on dair and Flip Jump, possible Shooting Star Flip Kick shenanigans
Guardian Orbitars protect from balloons, Breezy Flight windbox to mess up sweetspotting, maybe try offstage air combat (dat recovery)
Dash attack goes through Lloid, bair beats balloons, rumors of Reflect Barrier windbox to deny sweetspot, Explosive Flame sniping, offstage b-reverse Celestial Firework, Super Speed into things (esp. SH Super Speed into bair), Jump Glide into bair, Rocket Jump on ledge (air version meteors)
Counter balloons at ledge, offstage Dolphin Slash, tipper fsmash at ledge if you can get past the balloons for a moment?
Offstage Aether or landing hit from stage, possible Tempest windbox shenanigans, (Furious) Eruption at ledge
Elwind spike from onstage at ledge, spaced Arcfire (dets on balloons), maybe dsmash trades at ledge (editor's note: Goetia windbox?)
Projectiles out the wazoo, best option seems to be Zigzag Shot, dsmash can stagespike on ledge
Stone and variants (especially Meteor Stone), Giant Hammer (super armor including sapling while charging, hits ledge)
Armored Jet Hammer (super armor including sapling while charging, hits ledge)
Shuttle Loop hits ledge, can deliberately trade Blade Coaster hit with balloon for initial knockback without suicide
Dsmash at ledge (may trade), charge Fire Fox offstage at ledge, Fox Burst maybe
Dsmash at ledge (may trade), Explosive Blaster
Thunder Jolt spam
Rock Smash super armor but weird timing, Fly super armor, Flamethrower, fsmash and dsmash hit ledge, Flare Blitz (aim for balloons, explosion is AOE and hits Villager), dair meteor
Aura Sphere and variants, especially Snaring Aura Sphere (beware Pocket), Glancing Counter
Dsmash at ledge (shield first) (editor's note: air-to-air combat?)
Fully charged Water Shuriken, Shifting Shuriken, Hydro Pump to push Villager somewhere for an easy hit
Gyro, Robo Beam, down angled fsmash
PK Fire, PK Thunder (esp. Lasting PK Thunder), PK Flash if you're feeling cheeky, can PSI Magnet the balloon explosions
Hail mary utilts, dairs, etc.
Fsmash over ledge, Timber over ledge, beware Pocket (Smash Potato?)
Pikmin Throw latches through balloons, Red Pikmin are immune to balloon explosions (other Pikmin die fairly quickly as balloons explode), dsmash at ledge, dair spike
Weighted Header has a good angle but hits balloons instead of Villager, spam full charge Sun Salutation (not Enriched) and Deep Breathing to recover health (anti-camp strats), shield > dtilt at ledge, Steady Breathing, Sweeping Sun Salutation pierces balloons
Air Slash scoops from ledge, Vision, maybe Back Slash Charge
B-reverse Super Jump Punch standing at ledge
See Pit
See Marth
Pac-Jump, Meteor Trampoline, (On-)Fire Hydrant (beware balloons launching it back), various Bonus Fruit
Z-drop or down throw Metal Blade, Leaf Shield and shield at ledge to force balloon pop and non-sweetspot grab, Crash Bomber dets balloons on contact (both if close together), maybe Skull Barrier (doesn't protect against balloons but would help deal with Lloid and slingshots)
Shield > dsmash at ledge? dair? Spring Headbutt from below? (that's a stretch...)
Shield > stuff at ledge, maybe air-to-air?
Shot Put, shield > dsmash at ledge, Feint Jump, Ultimate Uppercut (requires precise spacing to avoid SD)
Shield > stuff, Gale Slash (windbox at end can mess up sweetspotting) (editor's note: soft toss Chakram?)
Grenade Launch, Flame Pillar (editor's note: Absorbing Vortex on the explosions like Ness?)

Done! Note that this is simply a list of moves that seemed to yield results when attempting to hit Villager from the ledge through repeated uses of Extreme Balloon Trip. (Pushy) Lloid, slingshots, and the trip sapling of course make this even harder for some characters.

 

[Splash Damage]

NinjaLink did a pretty long stream yesterday exploring tech to deal with Villager ledgestall as the entire cast.

Twitch VOD

EDIT with some highlights per character:
Super armor on smashes for easy trades (damage to self also builds KO meter faster), Grounding Blow in theory (wasn't tested on stream)

Just gonna make some comments on Mac because that's all I really do here:
Guard Breaker is excellent for this MU, the super armor of his smashes paired with a roll punishing, unshieldable, absurdly strong hit. I spoke above about the other advantages of this one, particularly about its anti-shield properties, an area where Mac lacks. Also, I'd be shocked to hear anything about Dash Counter not being the absolute ideal for this, as it can challenge all of Villager's projectile spam, and I believe in theory use the hit of the sapling to rush forward with an unimpressive but unorthadox attack to shake up the neutral. That, and both of his other counters are near useless in this matchup, Villager almost will never attack you directly making Compact pointless, and Slip could potentially have use to counter his finishing blow, but it's not as useful overall in this MU.
Flaming Straight lunge could work as a neutral mixup as well, though I can't see it being used more than 3-4 times in a match due to how obvious it is. That said, as another comment on his Super Armor being useful here to build up KO meter, FSL can be used in the same way.
Alsom what were his ideas on how to use Grounding Blow? I can't really see it getting use here, am I missing something?

 

[Duck SMASH!]

NinjaLink did a pretty long stream yesterday exploring tech to deal with Villager ledgestall as the entire cast.

Abandon Ship, Clown Cannon from offstage (also pierces balloons), thrown (Giant) Mechakoopa, Impatient Mechakoopa, Meteor Ejection, Clown Kart doesn't trip (but still takes light damage)

Just wanted to say that using Bowser Jr's cannonball on Villager when his pocket is empty is EXTREMELY dangerous. The cannonball can kill faster than a full charge shot from samus, especially if it's fully charged.
Also, Giant mechakoopa does like 15 damage, and if villager pockets that too, it will do a monstrous amount of damage and knockback too.
Impatient mechakoopa in general is terrible and not worth using.
The up Bs and Side Bs are good options though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Just wanted to say that using Bowser Jr's cannonball on Villager when his pocket is empty is EXTREMELY dangerous. The cannonball can kill faster than a full charge shot from samus, especially if it's fully charged.
Also, Giant mechakoopa does like 15 damage, and if villager pockets that too, it will do a monstrous amount of damage and knockback too.
Impatient mechakoopa in general is terrible and not worth using.
The up Bs and Side Bs are good options though.

I'm just making note of everything they did that yielded results. Because a 7 hour VOD is not something I'd wish on anyone.

 

[Unknownkid]

Just wanted to say that using Bowser Jr's cannonball on Villager when his pocket is empty is EXTREMELY dangerous. The cannonball can kill faster than a full charge shot from samus, especially if it's fully charged.
Also, Giant mechakoopa does like 15 damage, and if villager pockets that too, it will do a monstrous amount of damage and knockback too.
Impatient mechakoopa in general is terrible and not worth using.
The up Bs and Side Bs are good options though.

You should watch the video about Impatient Mechakoopa. It is hilarious.

 

[Piford]

I'd think Guiding Bow would be the optimal counter strategy as (Dark) Pit.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd think Guiding Bow would be the optimal counter strategy as (Dark) Pit.

It kept hitting the balloons instead of Villager when they tried, although I don't think they tried getting fancy and looping it around to hit from below.

 

[Piford]

It kept hitting the balloons instead of Villager when they tried, although I don't think they tried getting fancy and looping it around to hit from below.

I would time it so it hits villager when he regrabs the ledge since he doesn't have balloons or invincibility.

 

[Jaxas]

Awesome!
I'll be sure to incorporate this stuff into the Villager writeup; I should be able to start on that soon.

Also, do we have any Pikachu mains (or people who play against custom Pika) who can talk about Thunder Wave? And/or more Sonic Players/fighters?

By the way, @ Amazing Ampharos : Thanks for the writeup!
How much of that applies to Spin Dash in general, and how much is HSD exclusive?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Awesome!
I'll be sure to incorporate this stuff into the Villager writeup; I should be able to start on that soon.

Also, do we have any Pikachu mains (or people who play against custom Pika) who can talk about Thunder Wave? And/or more Sonic Players/fighters?

By the way, @ Amazing Ampharos : Thanks for the writeup!
How much of that applies to Spin Dash in general, and how much is HSD exclusive?

To be honest, since HSD is just obviously better than default, I have limited experience against default. That limited experience with default Spin Dash is mostly that it comes from a far inferior angle (and thus you should have a far wider array of moves that can stuff it), that it has overall worse combo potential (all of the JC combos work the same with both but only HSD has the grounding stuff), and that since the patch it actually does less damage too while its radically inferior trajectory even makes it a huge downgrade for general mobility. Any effective anti-HSD gameplay should pretty easily beat default as well since default is just a (substantially) worse version of the same basic concept. However, some of the stuff you might want to use against HSD won't work as well against Burning Spin Dash, but Burning Spin Dash has safety on shield issues so it's a very different beast in general.

I suppose if I came from a region that at one time banned customs I might have old experience, but I don't. I've been playing against HSD since day one, and the local Sonics saw right away that HSD was just better than default so to me HSD is just one of the pillars of what Sonic has always been.

 

[Splash Damage]

So, I guess for now we could try and discuss any possible way to begin labbing together to try and find out more counter strategies. I'm assuming having a megastream filled exclusively with labbing will be far too big of an undertaking, so Isuppose it would just be better to start off by just opening a thread for it?
I suppose it would work like so:
-Everyone trades NNIDs
-We decide on a target(custom move/strategy) to lab against together
-We determine the way all characters can deal with it
-After this, we determine character-specific counterstrategies(Ex;Shiek's up air against Kong Cyclone)
Does this sound like a good idea to any of you? Would anyone be willing to host this thread? I'd of course be willing to, but seeing my lack of experience with them i might not be the best for the job.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So, I guess for now we could try and discuss any possible way to begin labbing together to try and find out more counter strategies. I'm assuming having a megastream filled exclusively with labbing will be far too big of an undertaking, so Isuppose it would just be better to start off by just opening a thread for it?
I suppose it would work like so:
-Everyone trades NNIDs
-We decide on a target(custom move/strategy) to lab against together
-We determine the way all characters can deal with it
-After this, we determine character-specific counterstrategies(Ex;Shiek's up air against Kong Cyclone)
Does this sound like a good idea to any of you? Would anyone be willing to host this thread? I'd of course be willing to, but seeing my lack of experience with them i might not be the best for the job.

The obvious caveat is that someone in the group needs to be passable at the thing everyone's labbing against. Otherwise that sounds like a decent plan.

I'm good at writeups given I know what to write about in the first place, so I can help on that front too.

 

[Splash Damage]

The obvious caveat is that someone in the group needs to be passable at the thing everyone's labbing against. Otherwise that sounds like a decent plan.

I figure that the strategies we'll be at least starting with, like Kong Cyclone, will be pretty easy to pick up and use, especially for the purposes we'll be using it for.
In any case, having more writeups for it would be great if you could, thanks.

 

[Rizen]

Good thread. I'm not very experienced so this is helpful

 

[Splash Damage]

After testing, Mac unfortunately cannot Nair during Kong Cyclone to break the second hit/confirm into up B. I haven't tested yet if he can more simply Up B to escape however, and it's certainly worth testing especially on T&C thanks to the low ceiling and ability to easily strike DK to that stage. He strikes FD(because all Windkongs do this, and Macs loooove FD), you ban BF&Lylat, then they pick T&C as they know they can use Cyclone most often and most safely there. I'll do some labbing for RU now.

 

[Thor]

Was stated earlier, is worth restating; Meteor Quick Attack suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks. I'm pretty sure ESAM has stated somewhere or another he thinks Quick Attack might be just be the best special in the game, customs or not. Meteor QA has more endlag, more startup... it's just not a good move compared to regular QA. The relevant part is when someone builds you from 50% to 80% then HSBs you on the ledge to KO you [lol]. Realistically, all you can do is be aware of when Thunder Wave is incoming and shield or jump over it. Thunder Jolt is a good move as it is, and there was an interview where ESAM explained his logic for using 2311 vs 1311 [I know one thing was that if he couldn't effectively zone with T-jolt, T-wave allowed for hard reads, while if even T-wave was too laggy, he'd go for T-jolt so that when he chose to commit he'd be less likely to be punished, or something like that].

 

[Jaxas]

Hey everyone, sorry I haven't been active - I've had a really busy week. I should have time to update this on Monday though!
If you want to add your input on these topics now's the time (also, feel free to vote on what to cover next); thanks!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If enough people are on board with @ Splash Damage 's idea for online labbing then that's something I'd be interested in taking part in. But that's not exactly the topic of this discussion. (I really just wanted an excuse to tag and remind him.)

I'm sure AA's writeup and followups are enough to wrap up Hammer Spin Dash, but is there enough info here to finish Thunder Wave + Meteor Quick Attack shenanigans?

Some other special moves (and combinations thereof) that I can see being important to learn counterplay to, although whether they're "jank" enough for this topic is another matter:

Super Speed, Lightweight, "Hallelu-hah" or "Hoo-hallelujah" or "Holy Hoo-Hah" or whatever you want to call it. (That being Lightweight dthrow > (nair) > uair kill combos.)
Dark Fists, aka BIGGU PANCHU. Maybe Wizard's Dropkick as long as we're on the character?
Luma Warp, I still don't know the frame data on this one and I use the move all the time.
What do do when hit by Confusion.
How to DI dthrow > whatever combos to minimize damage taken. (Compare pre-patch Diddy?)
Jab lock > smash combos.

 

[David Viran]

We could talk about how to DI boost kick because I noticed alot of people still don't seem to understand how to DI when hit by the move or really the move in general.

 

[Unknownkid]

Might want to add Mii Brawler Helicopter Kick and Piston Punch to the list.

 

[Splash Damage]

(Yes I'm still here and still am interested in the online labbing if anyone has any idea/info on how to approach getting everyone together)
For the Luigi combo Di'ing, in my experience it seems to be just attempt to DI away as much as you can for the first few then begin Di'ing in to try and avoid the first F-air or U-air from the start.
Essentially:
-Mix up your initial DI when thrown between away and towards Luigi
-Once you get hit by the first F-air, begin to DI away as much as you can. It'd be best to DI completely to the side as DI'ing up doesn't get you much.
-If your character has a quick/invincible move, use that in moderation. If you read them shielding in mid-combo, just fall down and grab them instead.

As for Mii Brawler's tools, I have experience playing as them to have come up with a few ways to avoid it:
-Stay at center stage. Don't challenge them at ledge at 40-80% unless they are charging their Ultimate Uppercut as it has weird cooldown properties(Can't shield immediately)
-Hyper respect their grab, especially Med-Med size Brawler, mainly due to their D-throw>Fair chaingrab-esque resets.
-Respect it even more from ~60-80%. This 20% window is the only time frame it can both combo out of D-throw and kill from most areas onstage, assuming you're facing the closer blastzone. Dapuffster's done more writeups on this, but the idea stays the same.
-Past 80%, he has a much more difficult time killing due to lack of confirms into up b. It's essentially the Marth problem, once you've survived past 80%, enjoy living to 130% due to Brawler's lack of safe kill moves barring the occasional Ultimate Uppercut if they have it.

 

[Thor]

(Yes I'm still here and still am interested in the online labbing if anyone has any idea/info on how to approach getting everyone together)
For the Luigi combo Di'ing, in my experience it seems to be just attempt to DI away as much as you can for the first few then begin Di'ing in to try and avoid the first F-air or U-air from the start.
Essentially:
-Mix up your initial DI when thrown between away and towards Luigi
-Once you get hit by the first F-air, begin to DI away as much as you can. It'd be best to DI completely to the side as DI'ing up doesn't get you much.
-If your character has a quick/invincible move, use that in moderation. If you read them shielding in mid-combo, just fall down and grab them instead.

Careful DIing into Luigi at high percents... that's a free KO if he's good with his up+b [or even down+b].

 

[Splash Damage]

Some other special moves (and combinations thereof) that I can see being important to learn counterplay to, although whether they're "jank" enough for this topic is another matter:
Dark Fists, aka BIGGU PANCHU. Maybe Wizard's Dropkick as long as we're on the character?

Dark Fists:
-Use shield often at high percents. As far as I know, Ganon has little potential when it comes to kill throws barring at ledge or on the smashville platform, so unless he's using X2XX, it's a good option to use your shield safely to avoid a random Dark Fist in neutral. Dark Fists makes him lose a command grab, and X3XX makes him lose both, so shield is a decent answer.
-Do not attempt a followup with more than 5-6 frames of leeway, especially aerial. Under these circumstances, Ganon can buffer a DF out of hitstun and have the SA activate just as the hit connects, and the lenient hitboxes of the first DF hit will almost certainly set you up for death. The reason I say "Especially not aerial" is because that'll make you die even earlier due to the lower distance between you and the top blastzone.
-Respect it during the stage striking process. Ban SV and T&C during game 1 to eliminate low ceilings, then ban Halberd and T&C/Delfino during games 2-5. The higher the ceiling, the better.

I'll be making a few more writeups later today, but this is what I got for now.

 

[PUK]

Dark Fists:

-Respect it during the stage striking process. Ban SV and T&C during game 1 to eliminate low ceilings, then ban Halberd and T&C/Delfino during games 2-5. The higher the ceiling, the better.

Euh no that's not a good advice. Ban BF and T And C( i guess) because this way you go to SV or FD on game one, both being among the worst Ganondorf stage.
Don't respect dark fist more than everything else, seriously if you space well he won't be able to use it.

 

[Rizen]

Dark fists starts frame 15 but has super armor frames 5-15. Like most of Ganon's moves, play safe without huge endlag commitment. Ganon thrives on punishes.

 

[Splash Damage]

(Making a new post to put all the writeups I can make)

How to DI dthrow > whatever combos to minimize damage taken. (Compare pre-patch Diddy?)

Throw DI:
-Mix up your initial DI when thrown between away and towards Luigi to attempt to avoid the first F-air
-If/once you get hit by the first F-air, begin to DI away as much as you can. It'd be best to DI completely to the side as DI'ing up doesn't get you much.
-If you're close enough to Luigi, you can attempt to DI in until you get the reverse hit of a F-air to escape being carried offstage and Cyclone spiked.
-If your character has a quick/invincible move, use that in moderation. If you read them shielding in mid-combo, just fall down and grab them instead.
-if your character has a fast aerial/special w/super armor( Double Jump, Dark Fists, possibly more) DI away until you have some leeway frames then use it to escape.
-Never airdodge unless you haven't airdodged since game 1 of a 5-game set. Any Luigi worth their salt will easily read this and punish you with whatever they want, likely Up B.
-Be very careful getting grabbed at high percents, as Luigi has more than enough options that both kill and cover DI options. Essentially, DI up if you read him Cycloning forward, DI away if you read him Up-B'ing. Not certain how to DI for a B-air.

Jab lock > smash combos.

Double jabs:
-The same philosophy applies to the jabs that applies to Fox as a whole:At high percents, you can safely sit in shield, due to Fox's crippling lack of ability to kill with or from a throw. The Jabs fall victim to this as well. Just keep your fundamentals for fighting Fox intact.

What do do when hit by Confusion.

Confusion:
-Simply mix up your escape option. Your options are Nair/fastest aerial, airdodge, & jump. Essentially, cycle through Nair, Airdodge, & Jump.
-Don't Nair every time, as he may be able to shield it then follow up with a disable.
-Don't airdodge every time, as he may be able to charge a smash attack, Disable, or even Shadow Ball.
-Don't jump every time, as he may be able to snatch your jump with any of his aerials, especially F-air.

Dark Fists, aka BIGGU PANCHU. Maybe Wizard's Dropkick as long as we're on the character?

Dark Fists:
-Use shield often at high percents. As far as I know, Ganon has little potential when it comes to kill throws barring at ledge or on the smashville platform, so unless he's using X2XX, it's a good option to use your shield safely to avoid a random Dark Fist in neutral. Dark Fists makes him lose a command grab, and X3XX makes him lose both, so shield is a decent answer.
-Do not attempt a followup with more than 5-6 frames of leeway, especially aerial. Under these circumstances, Ganon can buffer a DF out of hitstun and have the SA activate just as the hit connects, and the lenient hitboxes of the first DF hit will almost certainly set you up for death. The reason I say "Especially not aerial" is because that'll make you die even earlier due to the lower distance between you and the top blastzone.

 

[Blobface]

Shielding against Ganondorf in general is a poor idea since he can just Flame Choke you, which sets up kills. To be honest, the only thing that you need to beat Dark Fists is to not do anything stupid. It has terrible range and it doesn't hit until frame 15, so it's uses are purely defensive.

Also, Ganondorf can control whether he grabs the ledge or not, so he can let the PANCHU come out before he grabs the ledge. It hits the whole ledge and hurts a lot, so make sure you're ready for it.

 

[Unknownkid]

Geez... talk about being carried by your custom moves
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BZss1QUIwQ

This is just sad. At least learn how use the default character before capitalizing on Custom Abuse.