Data Cloud's Frame Data [1.1.3]

[DarkDeity15]

Yeah, Limit Blade Beam is transcendent. It's great at keeping a zoning character honest due to that. Assuming the projectile you're using it against won't KO you.

Does it interact with items with HP like Link's bombs though? Because from my knowledge of Limit Blade Beam, it stops when it hits something and activates the multi-hit, right?

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Does it interact with grab-able items with HP like Link's bombs though? Because from my knowledge of Limit Blade Beam, it stops when it hits something and activates the multi-hit, right?

Yeah, if it's an entity like Link's bombs or DHD's can/frisbee it'll stop. Otherwise it'll phase right through.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Yeah, if it's an entity like Link's bombs or DHD's can/frisbee it'll stop. Otherwise it'll phase right through.

That's definitely something to consider in the Link/Tink MU, since those two are always making use of their bombs. Kinda makes non-edge-guard limit blade beams kinda moot. I'll definitely be moving this to the general MU thread.

Edit: Never mind, it's locked lol. It's kind of a good thing though since I'll have more information to give by the time it's opened up again. I'll hopefully be able to play by tomorrow, so I'll at least be making myself more useful.

 

[-Iceberg]

Is there anything yet about Limit Break Blade Beam having trascendent priority or whatever we want to call it? Just now I used a LBBB & it bypassed a Mewtwo Shadow Ball when I thought they'd collide.

EDIT: Oh, it'd be invincibility I presume. Maybe nvm then sorry for that.

Well actually, invincibility for Limit Break Blade Beam in the OP refers to Cloud being immune to damage and knockback. You were correct the first time. Blade Beam is in fact transcendent, just as LordWilliam1234 mentioned.

 

[Masonomace]

Right on, thanks Iceberg.

Also, is there anything up yet about Cloud having windboxes? I'm sure many know that Finishing Touch has a windbox, but I know that his Jab1 possesses a windbox property as well. I figured it out by having my friend play Training Mode with me on one of my custom stages & standing on a platform 1 or 2 grid units high off the ground using Jab1 above me watching my character get pushed away. And earlier yesterday, I was playing Cloud & used Blade Beam from a bit of distance towards a Mewtwo in front of me & didn't notice anything interesting, but then I spaced out a bit & realized that my Blade Beam pushed him back without dealing hitstun after he powered through the BB projectile. So maybe Blade Beam has a windbox property to it(?) but I'll have to recheck the replay after I get home later today.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

So d-tilt only has 10 active frames? That's less than I expected.

Can confirm that Blade Beam has a windbox close to his body. It's a very, very small windbox though. This is the spot I got it to work (without hitting the blade beam itself):

Windbox is on frame 17, a frame before blade beam goes active.

Jab 1 doesn't appear to have a windbox. You sure it's not just due to the characters pushing against each other?

Also, -Iceberg , a couple of your numbers are off I believe. Pummel should have an IASA of 26, not 31 (unless you want to count the hit-freeze), and I think your cross slash 3 FAF number is much higher than it should be (and the third start-up value is off a bit).

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Explain this sorcery! Is it Pac's wonky grab missing the mark, or is up-smash some sorta throw invul or invincible? I'd test this out but I gotta work stupid early in the morn.

Smooth Criminal

 

[KuroganeHammer]

His hurtbox altered and entered Pac's grab blindspot.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Thanks for the speedy reply, KuroganeHammer /Aerodrome. I figured it was something like this.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChimaeraUltimo]

Dair has a late hit that is active for way more than 3 frames.

 

[-Iceberg]

Right on, thanks Iceberg.

Also, is there anything up yet about Cloud having windboxes? I'm sure many know that Finishing Touch has a windbox, but I know that his Jab1 possesses a windbox property as well. I figured it out by having my friend play Training Mode with me on one of my custom stages & standing on a platform 1 or 2 grid units high off the ground using Jab1 above me watching my character get pushed away. And earlier yesterday, I was playing Cloud & used Blade Beam from a bit of distance towards a Mewtwo in front of me & didn't notice anything interesting, but then I spaced out a bit & realized that my Blade Beam pushed him back without dealing hitstun after he powered through the BB projectile. So maybe Blade Beam has a windbox property to it(?) but I'll have to recheck the replay after I get home later today.

Yep, I've been meaning to get the frame data for the windbox on Finishing Touch, I'll do some research into it. I'll check the windbox frames for Jab and Blade Beam, but as LordWilliam1234 mentioned, I'm pretty sure Jab doesn't have a windbox.

So d-tilt only has 10 active frames? That's less than I expected.

Can confirm that Blade Beam has a windbox close to his body. It's a very, very small windbox though. This is the spot I got it to work (without hitting the blade beam itself):

Windbox is on frame 17, a frame before blade beam goes active.

Jab 1 doesn't appear to have a windbox. You sure it's not just due to the characters pushing against each other?

Also, -Iceberg , a couple of your numbers are off I believe. Pummel should have an IASA of 26, not 31 (unless you want to count the hit-freeze), and I think your cross slash 3 FAF number is much higher than it should be (and the third start-up value is off a bit).

Awesome, thanks for looking into it.

I keep the Hit Freeze frames for Pummel, Cross Slash 2, and Cross Slash 3 because for those moves, you'll generally only be able to use them by hitting the opponent. Although, it is confusing to include Hit Freeze frames for just those moves, so I'll update the OP. Also, I double checked Hit 5 for Cross Slash, and the start-up value is correct.

Dair has a late hit that is active for way more than 3 frames.

You were looking at the early hit of Dair. From frames 11-13 (3 frames), the early hit of Dair does 15/13 damage. From frames 14-35 (22 frames), the late hit of Dair does 8 damage.

 

[Masonomace]

What's quite strange was that I was showing people Cloud's windboxes for his Jab1 but then realized that Jab2 may also have a windbox whenever I was testing this at the DI or DIE tournament yesterday on my custom stage with the platforms stacked. I haven't tried it yet but may someone try having a character like WFT crouch underneath Cloud's Jab1 & Jab2. Otherwise, it's not that important through this custom stage practice.

EDIT: There's no windboxes for Cloud's Jab. Sorry for that.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

There are no windboxes.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

There are no windboxes.

On the jabs, no. On Blade Beam, there is one.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

On the jabs, no. On Blade Beam, there is one.

Yea I'm aware because you got the frames wrong for it

 

[-Iceberg]

I see that you updated your website, KuroganeHammer ! I'll add the missing information to the OP, and fix anything that's incorrect. What do red and blue numbers represent, though? I've seen it on other character pages, but I kept forgetting to ask. Also, could you send me the link to the game file data on Cloud? I browsed through the Patch Notes 1.1.3 thread and couldn't find anything.

Edit: I'm guessing it's Sour Spot and Sweet Spot, correct?

 

[Masonomace]

My mistake. I was looking closer & realized it's because Cloud performing Jab1 or Jab2 would physically push someone away if his hurtbox got too close to someone standing nearby but from a distance low enough to be close to their proximity. So on like Battlefield or Lylat Cruise, it wouldn't show this at all, but on a custom stage it would.

Sorry for the confusion.

What do red and blue numbers represent, though? I've seen it on other character pages, but I kept forgetting to ask.

Red stands for ground-target only moves & Blue stands for Aerial-target only moves]

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Yea I'm aware because you got the frames wrong for it

Well, frame 17 was the earliest I could get it. Guess I should have tested further.

Live and learn I suppose.

 

[Eureka]

There's something weird about Finishing Touch that I don't think is being accounted for in the frame data. Is it possible there's a hitbox that isn't included in what's currently listed? Here's what I mean.

Shiek death % Finishing Touch on 3DS Battlefield starting position.

• Standing in front of Shiek and hitting her with Finishing Touch (regular hitbox) 61%
• Facing away from Shiek and hitting her with the late hitbox 71%
• Standing underneath the platform and hitting her with the buster sword hitbox 50%?

That's at least 3 different kill percents and probably 3 different hitboxes, but only two are listed. So what's missing? Where does this sword hitbox fall under?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

There's something weird about Finishing Touch that I don't think is being accounted for in the frame data. Is it possible there's a hitbox that isn't included in what's currently listed? Here's what I mean.

Shiek death % Finishing Touch on 3DS Battlefield starting position.

• Standing in front of Shiek and hitting her with Finishing Touch (regular hitbox) 61%
• Facing away from Shiek and hitting her with the late hitbox 71%
• Standing underneath the platform and hitting her with the buster sword hitbox 50%?

That's at least 3 different kill percents and probably 3 different hitboxes, but only two are listed. So what's missing? Where does this sword hitbox fall under?

The move does something on frame 18, I don't know what but maybe it's related. Regardless there's only those two values coded so if the frame 18 prompt is nothing, then it's simply the less distance between where she's getting hit to where the ceiling is that's killing her.

 

[Eureka]

The move does something on frame 18, I don't know what but maybe it's related. Regardless there's only those two values coded so if the frame 18 prompt is nothing, then it's simply the less distance between where she's getting hit to where the ceiling is that's killing her.

But I literally hit her from the exact same position, didn't bump into her or anything, and she died 11% earlier. That's way too significant of a difference to be a minor position change. And this is a consistent result, you can try it for yourself.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

But I literally hit her from the exact same position, didn't bump into her or anything, and she died 11% earlier. That's way too significant of a difference to be a minor position change. And this is a consistent result, you can try it for yourself.

You might be better off looking for yourself.

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[Eureka]

You might be better off looking for yourself.

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Is it possible that the thing that happens on frame 18 modifies the hitbox for that specific frame or the frame after? Are there any other examples of moves that having coding in them like this? Because there is something that's making Shiek die 11% earlier without her moving closer to the blast zone beforehand. I'd show you video but I don't have any method of recording it at the moment.

EDIT: I also can't help but notice that whatever event happens on frame 18 also happens on frame 20, that might have some meaning.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Is it possible that the thing that happens on frame 18 modifies the hitbox for that specific frame or the frame after?

There are no recorded instances of this outside of a couple of hitbox damage changes on a couple of specific moves like Ganondorf Nair.

 

[Eureka]

There are no recorded instances of this outside of a couple of hitbox damage changes on a couple of specific moves like Ganondorf Nair.

So I decided to try this out on a few other characters still on 3DS battlefield starting position, and right away I got some odd results.

• Standing in front of DeDeDe and hitting him with Finishing Touch 65%
• Facing away from DeDeDe and hitting him with the late hitbox 76%
• Standing underneath the platform and hitting him with the buster sword 72%?!?

I'm going to try this with other characters, but DeDeDe died later then just the basic hitbox while Shiek died earlier. Also there were no sparks for the underneath hit but there were some for the others. Maybe some sort of WBKB shenanigans?

EDIT: I ran some tests and I'm fairly sure whatever this is has something to do with weight.

First off, characters close to normal (100) weight.

Mario Weight 98

• Front: 57%
• Back: 67%
• Sword: 56%

Cloud Weight 100

• Front: 61%
• Back: 71%
• Sword: 60%

Both of them have only a 1% difference from the regular hit to the sword hit from underneath. Next characters with the same weight but different fall speeds.

Roy Weight 95 Fall Speed 1.8

• Front: 64%
• Back: 74%
• Sword: 60%

Pac-Man Weight 95 Fall Speed 1.35

• Front: 56%
• Back: 65%
• Sword: 55%

Captain Falcon Weight 104 Fall Speed 1.837

• Front: 64%
• Back: 74%
• Sword: 62%

Yoshi Weight 104 Fall Speed 1.29

• Front: 54%
• Back: 64%
• Sword: 55%

Roy and Pac-Man, both slightly below 100 weight both die earlier from the sword hit. But Roy died 4% earlier while Pac-Man only had a difference of 1%. This is further complicated by the comparison of Yoshi and Falcon, as Yoshi lived longer then usual while Falcon did not. However, both Roy and Falcon died at the same percents for the front and back hit, but Falcon, who is heavier, lived longer from the sword hit. I'm going to test characters with the same fall speed but different weights next to see if I can get a reason for the Yoshi and Falcon disparity. However I think this next comparison proves that this has something to do with weight the most.

Fox Weight 79 Fall Speed 2.05

• Front: 69%
• Back: 80%
• Sword: 51%

Bowser Weight 128 Fall Speed 1.39

• Front: 55%
• Back: 65%
• Sword: 59%

King DeDeDe Weight 119 Fall Speed 1.95

• Front: 65%
• Back: 76%
• Sword: 72%

Even though Fox lived longer then Bowser in both the front and back hits by a large margin, Fox, one of the lightest characters in the game, died a whopping 18% earlier from the sword hit while Bowser, the heaviest character in the game, lived 4% longer. And it can't just be that fast fallers die earlier from the sword hit (which would be consistent with the other results) because DeDeDe, who is the second fastest faller lived longer from the sword hit. So it had to have something to do with the characters weight.

EDIT: Once again I get to testing and immediately get strange results.

Ganondorf Weight 112 Fall Speed 1.65

• Front: 58%
• Back 67%
• Sword 59%

Duck Hunt Weight 91 Fall Speed 1.65

• Front: 62%
• Back: 72%
• Sword: 60%

I have no idea why, but Duck Hunt dies later than Ganondorf from Finishing Touch even though Ganon is heavier and Ganon lives longer otherwise from vertical KOs than Duck Hunt does. I tested it from the ground too to make sure it wasn't some platform oddity and DHD died at 73% and Ganon died at 69%. By what witchcraft is Duck Hunt living longer than Ganon?

 

[Chiroz]

So I decided to try this out on a few other characters still on 3DS battlefield starting position, and right away I got some odd results.

• Standing in front of DeDeDe and hitting him with Finishing Touch 65%
• Facing away from DeDeDe and hitting him with the late hitbox 76%
• Standing underneath the platform and hitting him with the buster sword 72%?!?

I'm going to try this with other characters, but DeDeDe died later then just the basic hitbox while Shiek died earlier. Also there were no sparks for the underneath hit but there were some for the others. Maybe some sort of WBKB shenanigans?

EDIT: I ran some tests and I'm fairly sure whatever this is has something to do with weight.

First off, characters close to normal (100) weight.

Mario Weight 98

• Front: 57%
• Back: 67%
• Sword: 56%

Cloud Weight 100

• Front: 61%
• Back: 71%
• Sword: 60%

Both of them have only a 1% difference from the regular hit to the sword hit from underneath. Next characters with the same weight but different fall speeds.

Roy Weight 95 Fall Speed 1.8

• Front: 64%
• Back: 74%
• Sword: 60%

Pac-Man Weight 95 Fall Speed 1.35

• Front: 56%
• Back: 65%
• Sword: 55%

Captain Falcon Weight 104 Fall Speed 1.837

• Front: 64%
• Back: 74%
• Sword: 62%

Yoshi Weight 104 Fall Speed 1.29

• Front: 54%
• Back: 64%
• Sword: 55%

Roy and Pac-Man, both slightly below 100 weight both die earlier from the sword hit. But Roy died 4% earlier while Pac-Man only had a difference of 1%. This is further complicated by the comparison of Yoshi and Falcon, as Yoshi lived longer then usual while Falcon did not. However, both Roy and Falcon died at the same percents for the front and back hit, but Falcon, who is heavier, lived longer from the sword hit. I'm going to test characters with the same fall speed but different weights next to see if I can get a reason for the Yoshi and Falcon disparity. However I think this next comparison proves that this has something to do with weight the most.

Fox Weight 79 Fall Speed 2.05

• Front: 69%
• Back: 80%
• Sword: 51%

Bowser Weight 128 Fall Speed 1.39

• Front: 55%
• Back: 65%
• Sword: 59%

King DeDeDe Weight 119 Fall Speed 1.95

• Front: 65%
• Back: 76%
• Sword: 72%

Even though Fox lived longer then Bowser in both the front and back hits by a large margin, Fox, one of the lightest characters in the game, died a whopping 18% earlier from the sword hit while Bowser, the heaviest character in the game, lived 4% longer. And it can't just be that fast fallers die earlier from the sword hit (which would be consistent with the other results) because DeDeDe, who is the second fastest faller lived longer from the sword hit. So it had to have something to do with the characters weight.

EDIT: Once again I get to testing and immediately get strange results.

Ganondorf Weight 112 Fall Speed 1.65

• Front: 58%
• Back 67%
• Sword 59%

Duck Hunt Weight 91 Fall Speed 1.65

• Front: 62%
• Back: 72%
• Sword: 60%

I have no idea why, but Duck Hunt dies later than Ganondorf from Finishing Touch even though Ganon is heavier and Ganon lives longer otherwise from vertical KOs than Duck Hunt does. I tested it from the ground too to make sure it wasn't some platform oddity and DHD died at 73% and Ganon died at 69%. By what witchcraft is Duck Hunt living longer than Ganon?

King Dedede dies earlier than a whole bunch of people when he should be dying later than everyone by a huge margin.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

So I decided to try this out on a few other characters still on 3DS battlefield starting position, and right away I got some odd results.

• Standing in front of DeDeDe and hitting him with Finishing Touch 65%
• Facing away from DeDeDe and hitting him with the late hitbox 76%
• Standing underneath the platform and hitting him with the buster sword 72%?!?

I'm going to try this with other characters, but DeDeDe died later then just the basic hitbox while Shiek died earlier. Also there were no sparks for the underneath hit but there were some for the others. Maybe some sort of WBKB shenanigans?

EDIT: I ran some tests and I'm fairly sure whatever this is has something to do with weight.

First off, characters close to normal (100) weight.

Mario Weight 98

• Front: 57%
• Back: 67%
• Sword: 56%

Cloud Weight 100

• Front: 61%
• Back: 71%
• Sword: 60%

Both of them have only a 1% difference from the regular hit to the sword hit from underneath. Next characters with the same weight but different fall speeds.

Roy Weight 95 Fall Speed 1.8

• Front: 64%
• Back: 74%
• Sword: 60%

Pac-Man Weight 95 Fall Speed 1.35

• Front: 56%
• Back: 65%
• Sword: 55%

Captain Falcon Weight 104 Fall Speed 1.837

• Front: 64%
• Back: 74%
• Sword: 62%

Yoshi Weight 104 Fall Speed 1.29

• Front: 54%
• Back: 64%
• Sword: 55%

Roy and Pac-Man, both slightly below 100 weight both die earlier from the sword hit. But Roy died 4% earlier while Pac-Man only had a difference of 1%. This is further complicated by the comparison of Yoshi and Falcon, as Yoshi lived longer then usual while Falcon did not. However, both Roy and Falcon died at the same percents for the front and back hit, but Falcon, who is heavier, lived longer from the sword hit. I'm going to test characters with the same fall speed but different weights next to see if I can get a reason for the Yoshi and Falcon disparity. However I think this next comparison proves that this has something to do with weight the most.

Fox Weight 79 Fall Speed 2.05

• Front: 69%
• Back: 80%
• Sword: 51%

Bowser Weight 128 Fall Speed 1.39

• Front: 55%
• Back: 65%
• Sword: 59%

King DeDeDe Weight 119 Fall Speed 1.95

• Front: 65%
• Back: 76%
• Sword: 72%

Even though Fox lived longer then Bowser in both the front and back hits by a large margin, Fox, one of the lightest characters in the game, died a whopping 18% earlier from the sword hit while Bowser, the heaviest character in the game, lived 4% longer. And it can't just be that fast fallers die earlier from the sword hit (which would be consistent with the other results) because DeDeDe, who is the second fastest faller lived longer from the sword hit. So it had to have something to do with the characters weight.

EDIT: Once again I get to testing and immediately get strange results.

Ganondorf Weight 112 Fall Speed 1.65

• Front: 58%
• Back 67%
• Sword 59%

Duck Hunt Weight 91 Fall Speed 1.65

• Front: 62%
• Back: 72%
• Sword: 60%

I have no idea why, but Duck Hunt dies later than Ganondorf from Finishing Touch even though Ganon is heavier and Ganon lives longer otherwise from vertical KOs than Duck Hunt does. I tested it from the ground too to make sure it wasn't some platform oddity and DHD died at 73% and Ganon died at 69%. By what witchcraft is Duck Hunt living longer than Ganon?

This is all fascinating research, I can't really explain it myself but it's interesting to see the results of it.

 

[Eureka]

King Dedede dies earlier than a whole bunch of people when he should be dying later than everyone by a huge margin.

Still, I have to wonder what sort of factor in Finishing Touch causes Duck Hunt to live for longer then Ganondorf when they have the same fall speed and the dog is lighter.

This is all fascinating research, I can't really explain it myself but it's interesting to see the results of it.

Beyond the data itself, this is probably one of the times where a hitbox quirk like this actually has gameplay implications. Particularly with dair or uair to Finishing Touch combos, where hitting them from underneath or not could very well be the difference of taking a stock or not for no discernible reason in the data. Can I just say how hilarious it is that a sentence like that can actually be said? I'm really curious how they go about coding everything in a game as complex as Smash.

 

[Ffamran]

Still, I have to wonder what sort of factor in Finishing Touch causes Duck Hunt to live for longer then Ganondorf when they have the same fall speed and the dog is lighter.

Maybe hurtbox differences? Duck Hunt Duo is much smaller than Ganondorf. Otherwise, there's kind of no reason when Ganondorf's heavier, has a higher gravity, and has the same fall speed. In any case, he should be living longer than Duck Hunt Duo like how Roy lives longer than Falco because while they share the same fall speed, gravity, and similar builds, Roy's heavier... but this also leads to a question of why Falco and Little Mac die at the same percent, but Little Mac's gravity is lower while everything else is the same. Oh, and wild guessing is that Cloud would prefer to kill bad guys over dogs and ducks.

Currently, working on Cloud's recovery frames, the frames after the last active frames of his moves.

 

[Eureka]

Maybe hurtbox differences? Duck Hunt Duo is much smaller than Ganondorf. Otherwise, there's kind of no reason when Ganondorf's heavier, has a higher gravity, and has the same fall speed. In any case, he should be living longer than Duck Hunt Duo like how Roy lives longer than Falco because while they share the same fall speed, gravity, and similar builds, Roy's heavier... but this also leads to a question of why Falco and Little Mac die at the same percent, but Little Mac's gravity is lower while everything else is the same. Oh, and wild guessing is that Cloud would prefer to kill bad guys over dogs and ducks.

Currently, working on Cloud's recovery frames, the frames after the last active frames of his moves.

I thought it might be a size difference too. But if that's the case it doesn't make sense for Duck Hunt to be dying before Ganondorf vertically otherwise. Perhaps because Finishing Touch kills at such low percents it just baaarrrly kills them as opposed to getting KO'd from something like an up smash at higher percents? Or maybe it is just the bird. Cloud does seem to have a soft spot for them considering all the time he probably wasted raising them instead of saving the world from the giant flaming rock in the sky.

 

[-XTIAN-]

after looking at this data, i think finishing touch (the front and back hit only) consider fall speed for the KO % with weight actually working (minimal) negative for the survivability
that would explain why ganon dies earlier than dhd and dedede dies so "early", also his fall speed safes him not to die as early as bowser, who also dies 1% later then yoshi even if yoshi has 0.10 less fall speed then bowser (so if it wasnt for the weight, bowser would live longer)
and finally that also explains why fox dies so late - min weight and max fall speed are the perfect counter against finishing touchs front and back hit

well so far for that - now the "sword" hit actually seems to work a bit different - it considers the weight positive to the KO % BUT also seems to use simultaneously or at least calculating the same/similar formula as the front+back hit in its KO power
that seems to be the case as characters are usually KOd later/earlier with the sword hit then with the front hit dependent on the weight (having "higher" weight then fall speed means getting killed later with the sword hit vs the front hit)

so ganon and dhd are the perfect example - ganon having more weight with the same fall speed as dhd gets 1% later killed by the sword hit as with the front hit and dhd having less weight gets 2% earlier KOd with the sword hit vs the front hit - same goes for falcon vs roy who have a similar fall speed (more weight gets later knocked out by the sword hit opposed to the front hit)

well i suck at math but i guess the formula for the front+back hit is "KO% = Fall Speed + (-Weight%?)" with the back hit killing ca. "10%" later, and finally the sword hit formula could be "KO% = (front+back hit formula) + Weight%?" yea so it goes minus weight and then adds it back again - otherwise i couldn explain the duckhunt vs ganon sword hit KO%

and as it seems fall speed is the major element on the KO% with a small influence of weight (negative on the front+back hit and negative+positive on the sword hit) - i hope that helps explaining it

 

[Ffamran]

-Iceberg , there's a slight error with Cloud's frame data that KuroganeHammer found: it's his Dair's last active frame. Apparently, it's frame 42 not frame 35. This basically means Cloud's Uair and Dair auto-cancel's after window is 1 frame after the hitbox is finished.

 

[-Iceberg]

-Iceberg , there's a slight error with Cloud's frame data that KuroganeHammer found: it's his Dair's last active frame. Apparently, it's frame 42 not frame 35. This basically means Cloud's Uair and Dair auto-cancel's after window is 1 frame after the hitbox is finished.

Last time I checked KuroganeHammer's website, he had a question mark next to Dair's Hitbox Activate frames. I guessed he confirmed that it ends on frame 42. I corrected the OP, thanks for letting me know!

 

[Ffamran]

Last time I checked KuroganeHammer's website, he had a question mark next to Dair's Hitbox Activate frames. I guessed he confirmed that it ends on frame 42. I corrected the OP, thanks for letting me know!

Yeah, it was frame 35 like what the game files apparently said, then 28? for some reason KH decided on, and then 42... Welp, at least we have our definite answer! *3 days later and it turns out it ends on frame 43*

 

[Chiroz]

Have we figured out why FT seems to kill at random %s? Or why against some people the Sword hitbox (on top of him) is stronger while it is weaker against others?

I tested on Sheik and ZSS, ZSS dies much, much earlier to the top hitbox while Sheik does not. Dedede actually dies much later to the sword hitbox.

I am still confused why Dedede dies so early to FT in general compared to others like Sheik.

 

[Ffamran]

Have we figured out why FT seems to kill at random %s? Or why against some people the Sword hitbox (on top of him) is stronger while it is weaker against others?

I tested on Sheik and ZSS, ZSS dies much, much earlier to the top hitbox while Sheik does not. Dedede actually dies much later to the sword hitbox.

I am still confused why Dedede dies so early to FT in general compared to others like Sheik.

Weight, fall speed, and gravity, how fast you can reach fast fall speed. ZSS's weight is 81, fall speed is 1.7, and gravity is 0.12 while Sheik's is weight is 85, fall speed is 1.75, and gravity is 0.15. Yeah, Sheik's going to live longer. As for Triple D, we could add hurtbox to it, but the major thing might be his gravity which is 0.08788 and even though he weighs 119 units and has a fall speed of 1.95. It's weird...

Another way to check this out - never done this, but I think it's a plausible idea - is to use vertical kill moves on Falco and Little Mac to note the intricacies of the game. Falco and Little Mac have the same weight of 82, fall speed of 1.8, and even similar builds, but different gravities at 0.13 for Falco and 0.08 for Little Mac. There are times where Falco will outlive Little Mac and then there are times where Little Mac will die at the same percent as Falco which I think is the case for Finishing Touch. To further test this, add in Mega Man and Roy who also have the same fall speeds, but Mega Man weighs 102 units and has a gravity of 0.1071 and Roy weighs 95 units and has a gravity of 0.114. There are other characters with the same fall speed, but there isn't a group of characters who have the same fall speed and similar builds i.e. Mega Man's the shortest, but just barely from Little Mac's height and Roy's about the same height as Falco? The game's really picky at times.

Character height chart: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/. It's still in progress and missing the DLC characters.

 

[Chiroz]

Weight, fall speed, and gravity, how fast you can reach fast fall speed. ZSS's weight is 81, fall speed is 1.7, and gravity is 0.12 while Sheik's is weight is 85, fall speed is 1.75, and gravity is 0.15. Yeah, Sheik's going to live longer. As for Triple D, we could add hurtbox to it, but the major thing might be his gravity which is 0.08788 and even though he weighs 119 units and has a fall speed of 1.95. It's weird...

Another way to check this out - never done this, but I think it's a plausible idea - is to use vertical kill moves on Falco and Little Mac to note the intricacies of the game. Falco and Little Mac have the same weight of 82, fall speed of 1.8, and even similar builds, but different gravities at 0.13 for Falco and 0.08 for Little Mac. There are times where Falco will outlive Little Mac and then there are times where Little Mac will die at the same percent as Falco which I think is the case for Finishing Touch. To further test this, add in Mega Man and Roy who also have the same fall speeds, but Mega Man weighs 102 units and has a gravity of 0.1071 and Roy weighs 95 units and has a gravity of 0.114. There are other characters with the same fall speed, but there isn't a group of characters who have the same fall speed and similar builds i.e. Mega Man's the shortest, but just barely from Little Mac's height and Roy's about the same height as Falco? The game's really picky at times.

Character height chart: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/. It's still in progress and missing the DLC characters.

I wasn't comparing Sheik to ZSS

I was comparing the fact that a certain hitbox hits harder on ZSS but weaker on Sheik.

As in: Hitting ZSS with the top of the move kills her about 10% earlier than hitting her with the front (she's sranding on the same location). These hitboxes kill Sheik at almost the same %. And on Dedede the effect is reversed, having the top hitbox actually kill much later than the front.



Then there's the fact that Dedede dies early to FT while some floaty lightweight chars die later.


Is there any rhyme or reason that's been discovered or are we still guessing the "usual" stuff.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

D3 dies earlier than a lot of characters if he tries to "properly" DI stuff.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Rocxidi]

Hey guys, are you guys 100% sure Cloud's Limit Break specials give intangibility? I've used every single one expecting the intangibility but instead I end up wasting it. Some examples include people Countering my Cross Slash or Pikachu gimping me with neutral B when I used Limit Climhazzard.

I play on the 3DS version so this might just be a bug. Cloud's multihit moves like Cross Slash and Down Smash don't true combo into each other all the time, so it might just be that Cloud is bugged on the 3DS.

 

[Chiroz]

Hey guys, are you guys 100% sure Cloud's Limit Break specials give intangibility? I've used every single one expecting the intangibility but instead I end up wasting it. Some examples include people Countering my Cross Slash or Pikachu gimping me with neutral B when I used Limit Climhazzard.

I play on the 3DS version so this might just be a bug. Cloud's multihit moves like Cross Slash and Down Smash don't true combo into each other all the time, so it might just be that Cloud is bugged on the 3DS.

Intangibility does not come up frame 1 and does not last for the whole move. They give intangibility for a very specific portion of the start up, not the whole thing.

AFAIK all but Down-B give intangibility and I for one have deliberately used Side-B intangibility to get away with some crazy ****.

Multi-Hits not comboing into each other is neither a bug nor specific to Cloud. Many multi-hits were purposely made in a way where the opponent is able to DI out of the move if he reacts quickly enough to his positioning vs your positioning upon being hit. That means that it depends on both the position of your opponent when he is hit and how fast he can DI towards the correct direction (which depends on where he is positioned, but most of the time it's just Upwards and Towards) after being hit.

And then there are other multi-hits which seem like the opponent was holding Luigi's poltergust (Little Mac's multi-jab).