Clones - why hate them?

[Plague von Karma]

Now, this is just my opinion. Don't be offended, or you really shouldn't be on the internet. I just want to discuss as to why this is such a huge thing.

Clones. A name that originally came from the Street Fighter Community (much like how Mario's original moveset came from said game - Ryu and Ken combination). In case you didn't know, clones are characters in a fighting game that use nearly the same moveset of an already implemented character, although with a few minor differences. For example, in said Street Fighter, Ken is considered to be a clone of Ryu, although he's more kick based. In Smash 64, Luigi is a clone of Mario. Clones are often shamed for how they were created, and are considered a lack of effort, waste of money and 'stolen spots'. However, I have to stop you there.

For starters, Clones actually take a while to make, although obviously a MUCH shorter space of time. Let me explain. People never consider the models to take a while, and think movesets are everything. It's actually the opposite - it's mainly modeling that's a problem. Lucina, a well known 'cloniest of the clones', is considered to have the worst effort ever put into a character. You could never be more wrong. From how long Roy took to model (1.0.6 -> 1.1.0(?)), I can infer that she was probably much harder to model than Marth. Roy's hair was STILL unfinished in the update before he came out. Hair is a very, VERY frustrating part of modeling a character, all the way across the board. From simple hair to complex hair, it's always difficult getting those strands right. Lucina's hair also has slight 'bounce' physics, often seen with capes. This also shows in Fire Emblem Awakening. Lucina probably took a bit less time than Marth, but the playstyle changes drastically because of the tipper removal, which also takes a while to do, surprisingly. People think clones take weeks? They take 2 or 3 months if the model is different. Movesets are obviously nothing different, but boy does modeling take a while. So clones aren't a lack of effort.

Now for something else. Clones are not a 'waste of money'. If clones take such a short time, I don't see why they are seen as a 'waste of money' and 'lack of effort' at the same time. They take exactly the same amount of time as normal characters, as seen in beta periods of characters. If you consider the character to be a 'waste of money', you are just picking on how the Sora Ltd. and how Masahiro Sakurai himself works now. You're not hating on the character, you're hating on the company. Clones are said by Sakurai to be the 'dessert' they make in their spare time. Thus, they spend their own money on the characters, not leeching off the funds of the game. Either way, you're not paid to make the character, you're paid to do the actual game itself. If it worked that way, the character would be the game. Now that makes no sense. So, people are paid to make the game. The characters are included, yes, but you're not wasting effort or money - you're using the time there is to spare - using every second to make a good game. Clones are just spare items.

I can't believe 'stolen' or 'wasted' 'spots' are even a thing. For starters, 'spots' would mean there's a quota for characters to meet. This is very wrong, and if I may say it, completely stupid. There is never a set target for characters to be in the game - in fact, it's infinite. With how the memory on a console can be and how incredibly large said memory is, characters could be added FOREVER. People said Toon Link 'stole' Young Link's 'spot'. For starters, Young Link was on a completely different area on the roster - in another game, actually. Even then, Young Link was planned to be there from the start and eventually got cut. Toon Link simply outlived him. The wasted slots and spots are just dumb petty things. It's a childish way of saying 'I just don't like this character or want it in the game'. Learn to man up, accept it, and show some appreciation. Note that a couple months of development were spent on that character you're throwing a childish fit over.

Note that people use these clones. Clones are characters with slightly different playstyles. Dark Pit is a more power based Pit. Lucina is an easier and slightly different Marth. Dr. Mario is a slower, more powerful and more Luigi-like Mario (In fact, he's Melee Mario and N64 Luigi in a way.). In Street Fighter, Ken is a kick based Ryu with a multi hit Shoryuken that makes children cry at night. I use Lucina sometimes simply because I appreciate a break from the tippers when I use Marth. He's my pocket, and by technicality, Lucina is too. It just expands my roster a little further and allows for more decisions. If I'm facing a Roy who can dominate my Marth's spacing, I can switch to Lucina in the next match and not worry about fast paced, close range combat. It just helps knowing I have that option in my bag of tricks.

The final thing I don't understand is why people act like Vampires to Light with clones. You literally put up crucifixes and cower in corners upon their reveal trailers. Street Fighter and Soul Calibur fans are like 'meh' and carry on. If you don't like something don't throw a fit and beg for it to be changed or taken out, just ignore the character. If it irritates you so much you just HAVE to throw the fit, just throw it irl and not scream so much online. Screaming 'NO MORE CLONES' on a YouTube Comment won't get you anywhere. Sakurai is going through bad times right now anyway - he's the Da Vinci of Video Games in my eyes. Remember what that guy said about Sakurai throwing tantrums saying people don't 'understand his vision'? Maybe you should try thinking about that vision and speculating on it. He wants this to be the best fighting game ever - and every fighting game has a clone or two.

I'm in no way saying I want a video game filled with clones like Street Fighter. I'm merely saying that you shouldn't bash clones but maybe welcome them as dessert as Sakurai wants it to be. If you don't like them, ignore them like the Street Fighter Community does as well. Not difficult.

But this is just my opinion. Up to you if you take it, ignore it, or say 'OH GOD HE HAS AN OPINION!' and go completely insane and throw a fit whilst saying 'WHAT THE **** MAN CLONES ARE COMPLETE BS AND WE SHOULD NEVER HAVE THEM IN THE GAME AT ALL' to me.

 

[Saikyoshi]

People hate clones because of an erroneous perception that their inclusion works directly against a character that they want but didn't make it. Basically, people think that Sakurai put Dr. Mario and Dark Pit in instead of Ridley and K. Rool, when the truth is that they wouldn't have made it anyway, clones or no clones.

tl;dr: Fans of non-included characters want a scapegoat.

 

[Zerp]

I don't hate clones at all, but I do dislike this nasty habit of theirs to put series representation out of whack, they tend to do that a lot for some reason.For example Dark Pit gets to be a clone, but Alph is relegated to being a alt, while if they made Alph the clone instead of Dark Pit, Kid Icarus wouldn't have been as over represented and Pikmin would have gotten a well deserved second rep. And for another example, Fire Emblem without clones would have 3 characters, which feels more reasonable to me than to have it tower above Kirby, Nintendo's 5th largest franchise, by two reps.

 

[iVoltage]

There's really not much to discuss, people "hate" them because they just want to be mad/ use that as a scapegoat to get mad. Sakurai has already said they are extra, so that just makes those people attention seekers.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Because I hardly care about Mario and Pit as it is, and Lucina is everything I do not wish to play as if I want to play as a character as Marth. Also, Dr.Mario was the lamest character imo in Melee and I didn't want him back. Dark Pit is just a bad choice for a playable character and was added because Sakurai bias.

Could've given me something more interessting and I'd be hooked. Give me a stronger but slower MetaKnight in the form of Galactia Knight. Slower and more powerful Sheik with Impa. Alph being an actual character who uses Pikmin... differently (like, give him Pikmin who cause more damage but cannot kill as effectively I DUNNO). Give us another F-Zero character by cloning C.Falcon (again ). Tom Nook as a Villager clone? **** it, it's not THAT hard...

 

[Plague von Karma]

People hate clones because of an erroneous perception that their inclusion works directly against a character that they want but didn't make it. Basically, people think that Sakurai put Dr. Mario and Dark Pit in instead of Ridley and K. Rool, when the truth is that they wouldn't have made it anyway, clones or no clones.

tl;dr: Fans of non-included characters want a scapegoat.

Yeah, fans are p delusional sometimes. They scare me with how warped it can be. Someone said 'Dark Pit replaced Sachiko!' and I was like wut? Sachiko from Corpse Party? Kinda strange. I would love to see her in though, but eh...Edgy Pit replacing a psycho? I don't think so. Either way characters are planned from the start.

I don't hate clones at all, but I do dislike this nasty habit of theirs to put series representation out of whack, they tend to do that a lot for some reason.For example Dark Pit gets to be a clone, but Alph is relegated to being a alt, while if they made Alph the clone instead of Dark Pit, Kid Icarus wouldn't have been as over represented and Pikmin would have gotten a well deserved second rep. And for another example, Fire Emblem without clones would have 3 characters, which feels more reasonable to me than to have it tower above Kirby, Nintendo's 5th largest franchise, by two reps.

Alph was planned to be a character. Just shows how late in development clones were added. The last few months of development in my eyes. I think he was meant to have Rock Pikmin instead of Purple Pikmin or something. Faster and less powerful? Idk.

 

[CrazyPerson]

Those are all good points... good points typical not considered.

Rosters feel quite a bit smaller with them. And regardless of development time, it is frustrating to see a character that was loved/think we would love be omitted while we have 2 Marios, 2 Marths, 2 Pits, 2 foxes, 2 Captian Falcons in the game... Even if they aren't taking a roster spot away from someone it is easy to ask "why?". It also makes the roster feels smaller than it officially is with this. (I have omitted Lucas and Roy from this because they are DLC... which people who don't like clones can skip buying... an option they don't get with those listed.)

So yes... simple frustrations without the complex, intelligent thinking demonstrated by the OP.

Because I hardly care about Mario and Pit as it is, and Lucina is everything I do not wish to play as if I want to play as a character as Marth. Also, Dr.Mario was the lamest character imo in Melee and I didn't want him back. Dark Pit is just a bad choice for a playable character and was added because Sakurai bias.

Could've given me something more interessting and I'd be hooked. Give me a stronger but slower MetaKnight in the form of Galactia Knight. Slower and more powerful Sheik with Impa. Alph being an actual character who uses Pikmin... differently (like, give him Pikmin who cause more damage but cannot kill as effectively I DUNNO). Give us another F-Zero character by cloning C.Falcon (again ). Tom Nook as a Villager clone? **** it, it's not THAT hard...

This is often what it comes down to. People like the clones of characters/play styles they are fans of... and dislike the rest.

That makes sense... but no way everyone can be pleased.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Those are all good points... good points typical not considered.

Rosters feel quite a bit smaller with them. And regardless of development time, it is frustrating to see a character that was loved/think we would love be omitted while we have 2 Marios, 2 Marths, 2 Pits, 2 foxes, 2 Captian Falcons in the game... Even if they aren't taking a roster spot away from someone it is easy to ask "why?". It also makes the roster feels smaller than it officially is with this. (I have omitted Lucas and Roy from this because they are DLC... which people who don't like clones can skip buying... an option they don't get with those listed.)

So yes... simple frustrations without the complex, intelligent thinking demonstrated by the OP.

If we took out EVERY SINGLE CLONE, including Semi-Clones (People even hate THOSE...seriously) from across the series, the roster would be -
- Mario
- Peach
- Bowser
- Fox
- RosaLuma
- Ice Climbers
- Snake
- Ness (Not Lucas because he's Ness w/ customs)
- Bowser Jr.
- Marth
- Captain Falcon
- Link
- Zelda
- Donkey Kong
- Diddy Kong
- Shiek
- Charizard
- Pikachu
- Ivysaur
- Squirtle
- Duck Hunt Duo
- Ike
- Jigglypuff
- King Dedede
- Lucario (Not a clone just because he has an Aura Sphere)
- Wolf (He only shares 2 moves with Fox/Falco, meaning not a clone)
- Mewtwo
- Little Mac
- Mega Man
- Meta Knight
- Olimar
- PAC-MAN
- Pit
- Palutena
- Robin
- Ryu
- Sonic
- Samus
- ZSS
- Yoshi
- Shulk
- Villager
- Wario
- G&W

So, pretty small compared to the full roster. Also, no Roy (semi clone) or Falco (semi clone). This is the game people seem to 'want'. If people hate clones as DLC so much just don't buy it. Seems dumb for them to act as if it'll be in their game all unlocked and stuff. People just overreact way too much over something EVERY fighting game has MORE of.

 

[Xermo]

Now, this is just my opinion. Don't be offended, or you really shouldn't be on the internet.

Nice preface.
"Hitler did nothing wrong. This is my opinion and if you disagree or get offended you really shouldn't exist on the same plane as myself."
Also pretty contradictory considering you felt obligated to write an essay over people's opinions over clones, but whatever.

Lucina probably took a bit less time than Marth, but the playstyle changes drastically because of the tipper removal, which also takes a while to do, surprisingly.

Altering hitbox properties doesn't take months. You could remove tipper in a day.

They take exactly the same amount of time as normal characters

No they don't. Having all the animations for a character already present cuts down on development by 70%.

Thus, they spend their own money on the characters, not leeching off the funds of the game.

[citation needed]

For starters, 'spots' would mean there's a quota for characters to meet. This is very wrong, and if I may say it, completely stupid. There is never a set target for characters to be in the game - in fact, it's infinite. With how the memory on a console can be and how incredibly large said memory is, characters could be added FOREVER.

"As many as we can" is the quota. Otherwise we wouldn't be at entry 4 with over 50 characters.
Also, lol no they can't. Memory is still a limited resource, no matter how much they have at their disposal.

If it irritates you so much you just HAVE to throw the fit, just throw it irl and not scream so much online.

You first. It's one thing to want to legitimately discuss clones, but your post is covered in bait and condescending fanboy entitlement over sakurai. See:

Sakurai is going through bad times right now anyway - he's the Da Vinci of Video Games in my eyes.

He wants this to be the best fighting game ever - and every fighting game has a clone or two.

*Party game


It also seems you fail to realize that the reason most people hate clones in smash is because it detracts from their actual character. Ganondorf is still nothing more than warlock falcon, dark pit could have represented a larger part of uprising in weaponry but is instead just edgy pit with differing knockback / arrows, lucina throws her character out the window just to be training wheels marth. The last two are only excusable as they were literally costume promotions along with doc.
The entire foundation of the game is built on the characters in it, unlike street fighter or soul calibur; you can't even compare the complaints on the smash roster with how people react to those game's rosters.

 

[Plague von Karma]

It's the same as the 'too many reps' dilemma. People say there's 'too many' of one series of reps. With how spots are technically infinite in Smash 4. The dev team can break up, but can be brought back just as easily. Or Sakurai could do it himself. It really isn't major. If people wanted it balanced out characters would have to be taken out or something to suit smaller franchises. Punch-Out!! would look ridiculous. Mr. Dream, Doc Louis and Glass Joe in Smash? Ehh. That'd be 5 reps, which if balance were to occur would have to happen. Expect RosaLuma out and King K. Rool in, and maybe some ridiculous Metroid and F-Zero reps. Or do you want a row for each, cus that'd be a huge roster? Keep in mind that the stage selection would be like 4 pages long.

With how popularity comes into the equation, in Smash 5 you could expect Cammy, Chun Li and Ken to join the battle if Ryu stays. Super Smash Bros. 5: Nintendo VS Capcom...I can see it now...actually I wouldn't mind that. Nintendo take notes. Either way, if players wanted a roster with 5 characters each or something, expect this -
- Mario
- Luigi
- Peach
- Bowser
- Toad
- Hector
- Roy
- Marth
- Lucina
- I dunno, Lyn?
- Little Mac
- Glass Joe
- Mr. Dream
- Doc Louis
- Von Kaiser
and so on.

Nice preface.
"Hitler did nothing wrong. This is my opinion and if you disagree or get offended you really shouldn't exist on the same plane as myself."
Also pretty contradictory considering you felt obligated to write an essay over people's opinions over clones, but whatever.
Offended by opinions =/= Debating opinions.


Altering hitbox properties doesn't take months. You could remove tipper in a day.
Actually, Lucina's hitbox wasn't edited. It's the same as Marth's. They had to keep her in proportion, and surprisingly it was done quite well. Also, tipper is a vital thing in Marth's code, and since Marth was imported, it takes roughly 3 or so days depending on effort to remove the entirety of the code and to beta test it. It has to be tested on every character, etc to test hitboxes from the Parallel Falchion as well.


No they don't. Having all the animations for a character already present cuts down on development by 70%.
Like I said, hair makes up a majority of the development. Animating is the easy part, given that Marth's take up 99.9% (Shield Breaker)


[citation needed]
Sakurai said 'spare time'. Inference.


"As many as we can" is the quota. Otherwise we wouldn't be at entry 4 with over 50 characters.
Also, lol no they can't. Memory is still a limited resource, no matter how much they have at their disposal.
Updates, Flash Drives, Internal Storage, the list goes on...


You first. It's one thing to want to legitimately discuss clones, but your post is covered in bait and condescending fanboy entitlement over sakurai. See:
If it were bait, it'd be a LOT different. It'd be a 1 liner, not 20+ mins of paragraphs and stuff brought from general knowledge of Smash history. Not really fanboying. Going by a Gamnesia report. Look up something that the guy who got sacked from Nintendo said.




*Party game
Brawl would like to have a word with you.


It also seems you fail to realize that the reason most people hate clones in smash is because it detracts from their actual character. Ganondorf is still nothing more than warlock falcon, dark pit could have represented a larger part of uprising in weaponry but is instead just edgy pit with differing knockback / arrows, lucina throws her character out the window just to be training wheels marth. The last two are only excusable as they were literally costume promotions along with doc.
The entire foundation of the game is built on the characters in it, unlike street fighter or soul calibur; you can't even compare the complaints on the smash roster with how people react to those game's rosters.
- Ganondorf was added like that due to time constraints. Can't get out of it due to past users.
- Dark Pit was originally a costume.
- Lucina was originally a costume.
- Excusable? Please. PLEASE appreciate that it's not Street Fighter if ANYONE plans on throwing a hissy fit.
- Veterans like me in Street Fighter get used to it. Only newbies and kids complain because they came from Smash. Maybe some people should man up and take this instead of throwing fits?

It's all up here in the quote ^

 

[CrazyPerson]

It also seems you fail to realize that the reason most people hate clones in smash is because it detracts from their actual character. Ganondorf is still nothing more than warlock falcon, dark pit could have represented a larger part of uprising in weaponry but is instead just edgy pit with differing knockback / arrows, lucina throws her character out the window just to be training wheels marth. The last two are only excusable as they were literally costume promotions along with doc.
The entire foundation of the game is built on the characters in it, unlike street fighter or soul calibur; you can't even compare the complaints on the smash roster with how people react to those game's rosters.

This is a good point.

As a Zelda fan ( games not the smash character Be it not the biggest thanks to time constraints) I see Gannondorf as an iconic villain... one who I would have loved to see get his own move set based on the Zelda universe. The moveset he has is a disservice to the character IMO.

I can see how Fire Emblem/kid Icarus fans would feel the same way about their characters even if they are extras.

I guess the flip side of that is that Capetian Falcon didn't have an out of vehicle move set to draw from at first... nor did Fox. (smash 1 predates the lousy turn for the series when Fox stepped out of the cockpit... and Shiek never saw combat in Zelda OOT. (did in the non canonical Hyrule Warriors, but her first smash appearance predates that.)

 

[Rinku リンク]

It also seems you fail to realize that the reason most people hate clones in smash is because it detracts from their actual character. Ganondorf is still nothing more than warlock falcon, dark pit could have represented a larger part of uprising in weaponry but is instead just edgy pit with differing knockback / arrows, lucina throws her character out the window just to be training wheels marth. The last two are only excusable as they were literally costume promotions along with doc.
The entire foundation of the game is built on the characters in it, unlike street fighter or soul calibur; you can't even compare the complaints on the smash roster with how people react to those game's rosters.

I agree with everything except for the Dr.Mario bit. He should have just been a costume palette since he's not an entirely different character like Dark Pit or Lucina.

 

[Xermo]

Offended by opinions =/= Debating opinions.
Obligation to respond to opinionated matters indicates it affects you in some way. Whether or not you were personally offended is subjective, however you still felt the need to document your counter-opinion.

Actually, Lucina's hitbox wasn't edited. It's the same as Marth's. They had to keep her in proportion, and surprisingly it was done quite well. Also, tipper is a vital thing in Marth's code, and since Marth was imported, it takes roughly 3 or so days depending on effort to remove the entirety of the code and to beta test it. It has to be tested on every character, etc to test hitboxes from the Parallel Falchion as well.
I never said her hitbox was edited. I said the properties were.


Like I said, hair makes up a majority of the development.
[Citation Needed]

Animating is the easy part, given that Marth's take up 99.9% (Shield Breaker)
Subjective. Hair may be a difficult aspect of modeling to perfect, but it's in no way what consumes the majority of development time on a character. Also what exactly are you saying with the shield breaker statement.

Sakurai said 'spare time'. Inference.
You should be able to infer that "spare time" would mean a period when the game is in a readily ship-able stage without excess modifications. If the game was due to ship in a month but was in a complete state, developing that 1 additional character would still draw on funding and resources given to them at the start unless otherwise stated.

Updates, Flash Drives, Internal Storage, the list goes on...
That's still all finite. At such a point in time it'd be a prerequisite to carry around an 8 gig sd simply for the additional data.

If it were bait, it'd be a LOT different. It'd be a 1 liner, not 20+ mins of paragraphs and stuff brought from general knowledge of Smash history. Not really fanboying. Going by a Gamnesia report. Look up something that the guy who got sacked from Nintendo said.
Even the most well written or lengthy post can be bait. The quality simply improves with more time invested in writing it. Saying things along the lines of "you need to man up," "get off the internet if you can't handle my opinion," or "sakurai is a misunderstood visionary, take what he gives you with no gripes" are meant draw responses from people; it's bait.
And it is definitely fanboy-ism if you've placed sakurai on such a high pedestal.


Brawl would like to have a word with you.
Brawl was still a party game. Doesn't mean it was bad.

- Ganondorf was added like that due to time constraints. Can't get out of it due to past users.
He could have. He simply didn't. If that was the case, luigi would still be a near 1:1 mario clone. If "past users" were truly a defining factor in keeping characters a certain way, a number of fighters in this game wouldn't have so many changes that affect the way they play.

- Dark Pit was originally a costume.
- Lucina was originally a costume.
I acknowledged this.

- Excusable? Please. PLEASE appreciate that it's not Street Fighter if ANYONE plans on throwing a hissy fit.
The difference between smash and street fighter is that clones in SF were originally conceived with their cloned movesets. They started out with them. Smash clones are existing characters from existing franchises with moveset potential to draw on, but instead were limited to sharing a moveset with another character due to time related reasons for the most part. Even when given more time to work on said characters, sakurai decides to keep them clones because of smash identity.

- Veterans like me in Street Fighter get used to it. Only newbies and kids complain because they came from Smash. Maybe some people should man up and take this instead of throwing fits?
"Get used to it," as in at some point in time you yourself were affected by clone related decisions in SF. Coming into smash, a series dominated by fresh faces with every iteration, and telling people to "man up" for having one of their favourite characters reduced to a joke isn't a solution.

Responses in non-boldface

I agree with everything except for the Dr.Mario bit. He should have just been a costume palette since he's not an entirely different character like Dark Pit or Lucina.

I was just comparing dp and lucina to doc in terms of playable status. Doc should have stayed a costume.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Perhaps he is, perhaps he isn't. I don't even care. He throws pills and it's apperantly IMPOSSIBLE to mimic that effect with fireballs, so yeah we stuck with him. I like to think that Mario is narcisistic enough to have a double personality role and is therefore allowed in Smash to just give him his way.

 

[Burruni]

I agree with everything except for the Dr.Mario bit. He should have just been a costume palette since he's not an entirely different character like Dark Pit or Lucina.

Even though he's the one of the three that actually plays the most differently?

 

[Rinku リンク]

Even though he's the one of the three that actually plays the most differently?

Doesn't change the fact that he's still Mario himself.

 

[Dr. Windbox]

I think that clones are totally fine tbh. They add another character on the roster which has pros and cons. A pro being another character that if they are a clone of your main and do better in a certain match up may it be Lucina w/ more consistent kills, or Dark pit's horizontal knockback side special. A thing about clones that is perceived as a con but really is just not true is that clones take up spots that other characters could have been in. This is not the case. In melee, Sakurai made so many clones because he wanted a bigger roster, in the short development time they had. They didn't chose to include clones in place of someone like sonic, but to give the game more characters. They didn't have time to develop new characters from scratch, so they added clones. They are completely welcome in smash bros.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Clones just challenge the whole preceived priorities of the game, and automatically makes us think more critically about 'what we could have instead' instead of them. I think it's logical to automatically think of other characters because of this, but it's easier to say we get rid of clones and lets add King K.Rool, Wolf and Isaac instead of discussing which modes we think are a bad choice to invest time in. In that case, I'd also want to get rid of Smash Tour, the whole concept of the Miis and customation, and clones. Maybe then we'd get King K.Rool, Wolf, Isaac and all other DLC characters on the vanilla roster. Good luck to Sakurai trying to sell us Smash Tour as DLC though in this alternative reality...

 

[Plague von Karma]

Responses in non-boldface

I was just comparing dp and lucina to doc in terms of playable status. Doc should have stayed a costume.

I just wanted to debate clones. Also, Lucina's hitbox was made from scratch. There's no Marth that I see.

As for the Doc, he was added not only because he was intended in Brawl but also to advertise Dr. Mario's previously dying series and to give Melee Mario fans 'their old character back'. Dr. Mario was popular in Melee after all.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Doesn't change the fact that he's still Mario himself.

Toon Link and Young Link. Samus and Zero Suit Samus. Much 'worse' cases, if you are the type to think multiples of the same character are a bad thing. Smash is filled with them. Street Fighter has Ryu., Evil Ryu, Akuma and various other Ryus. Soul Calibur has Nightmare and Siegfried. You'll always see these things in every fighting game. Smash has been branded as a Fighting Game since Brawl, and thus, this is just another generic case in Fighting Games. Wanna try another? It won't change. Clones, Re-Created Fighters and all that will always be a thing simply because it boosts the roster and makes it feel less empty. As aforementioned, without clones and re-created characters, the roster will be even more empty.

Here's a list of characters without clones, semi clones or re-created characters (yes, some can be taken out).
- Mario
- Peach
- Bowser
- Fox
- RosaLuma
- Ice Climbers
- Snake
- Ness
- Bowser Jr.
- Marth
- Captain Falcon
- Link
- Zelda
- Donkey Kong
- Diddy Kong
- Charizard
- Pikachu
- Ivysaur
- Squirtle
- Duck Hunt Duo
- Ike
- Jigglypuff
- King Dedede
- Lucario (Not a clone just because he has an Aura Sphere)
- Wolf (He only shares 2 moves with Fox/Falco, meaning not a clone)
- Mewtwo
- Little Mac
- Mega Man
- Meta Knight
- Olimar
- PAC-MAN
- Pit
- Palutena
- Robin
- Ryu
- Sonic
- Samus
- Yoshi
- Shulk
- Villager
- Wario
- G&W

Believe it or not, this takes out the top tiers ZSS and Shiek. The roster feels a lot more empty without alter egos and all that...

 

[jamesster445]

I only dislike clones for the following
1. No real change in playstyle. Ex
2. Generally inferior to the source. Ex
3. It makes no sense.

But theres also the aspect of wasted potential. Dark Pit has his staff and could've been a weapon master. Ganondorf has tons of magic abilities. And Lucina has her own moves and skills inherited by Chrom and multiple mothers.

 

[Tino]

People hate them because they're just as delusional as a 2-year old who only likes to make lame excuses for not wanting them. If they don't like them, then don't play as them. It ain't that hard to do.

I personally don't care which character they put in, be a clone or semi-clone of an existing character because, unlike this blasted community (yes I said it and I don't give a ****), I don't complain about **** at all.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I don't like clones because they directly tie into another thing the community doesn't like for no reason:

Overrepping.

See, the two biggest "offenders" of overrepresentation are:

Fire Emblem
Kid Icarus

Let's see the characters they have and what makes it different from what people expected:

Fire Emblem:
Expected:
Marth
Ike*
Robin/Chrom

*Some people took Roy's cut as a pattern and suggested Ike would be cut,

We got:
Marth
Ike
Robin
#Lucina
#Roy

Hey would you look at that!
A few clones are what made the franchise "overrepped" (that and another problem of the community, which is the feverish veteranism)

Kid Icarus:
Expected:
Pit
Palutena

Yeah, Palutena was deemed to be at a divine level of shoo-in, and was very popular

We got:
Pit
Palutena
#Dark Pit

Ooooh nononono, clones don't matter except when they matter because this piece of biased **** should've never happened! /s

Result?
People are fiercely against the idea of new characters from those series, like Azura, Anna, Tiki or Viridi, Medusa and Hades.
And next game, everybody and their grandmother's dead hamster clamor for these "waste of space" clones to RETURN over unique characters of said series, creating a Zelda-esque representation. (All clones)

 

[Vapo]

As evidenced by my main, I despise clones and think they should be eradicated from the roster and replaced with more original characters like Pink Gold Dark Young Toon Metal Dr. Marth.



Really though, I don't see any problem with clones and they can still add new things to the roster. I don't really care that they "take slots" from other characters, because even if I did I'd stick with my mains anyway, unless some hypothetical new character really clicks with me all they'll be to me is another matchup to remember. I don't mind clones at all (except for maybe in the case of Ganondorf's horrible misrepresentation).

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

They make the "do x chore as every character" challenges slightly more obnoxious. I usually just go down the css in order, and it's usually around the place where the clones are that I'm practically groaning, especially if I didn't enjoy doing it as Marth or Pit in the first place.

Fortunately, once that's over, I never have to worry about it again. So, I will just be happy for those who enjoy playing as those characters all the time.

 

[dangeraaron10]

I don't get why people can't just voice an opinion without having to bash those who have different opinions.

Snobs, whiners, babies, fanboys, etc.

I'm talking BOTH sides here, to those who dislike and those who don't mind clones. It's unnecessary and makes the community as a whole look bad. Clones seem to bring out the worst in people, regardless of their stance on them.

I personally don't mind clones. They're extra, and I know their absence won't mean my favorite characters get in. The base roster is decided very early in development and then locked in place, clones are decided later. The Little Three off in their Clone Corner are actually special cases as they were intended to be Alph-like alts that got a promotion (I just wish Alph joined them so he wasn't in this awkward position of people forgetting he's technically a playable character while everyone remembers the Koopalings).

 

[Zerp]

I don't get why people can't just voice an opinion without having to bash those who have different opinions.

Snobs, whiners, babies, fanboys, etc.

I seriously cannot put into words how much I agree with this, everybody, and I mean everybody, as long as they are respectful and/or not being rude to others, should have the right to voice their opinion without being labeled. It's fine to disagree with someone else but it's not fine to be a giant jerk and just call everyone and anyone on the opposing side names just because you can't understand or don't like their way of thinking.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I only dislike clones for the following
1. No real change in playstyle. Ex
2. Generally inferior to the source. Ex
3. It makes no sense.

But theres also the aspect of wasted potential. Dark Pit has his staff and could've been a weapon master. Ganondorf has tons of magic abilities. And Lucina has her own moves and skills inherited by Chrom and multiple mothers.

1. That's what a clone is and what defines it. However, you're wrong on both notes here. Dark Pit requires a couple changes to adjust to his new specs. Lucina is also a bit different since the kill phases are entirely different.
2. Young Link is in no way inferior to Link in Melee. Higher tier. Pichu is also a definite character to question with Pikachu, since Pichu can be used in tournaments. Not that he'll defo win, but if he does win a tournament...it'll be on [redacted]. Trust me.
3. Time constraints made Ganondorf who he is. Not that I hate his playstyle - I ****ING LOVE IT.

I don't like clones because they directly tie into another thing the community doesn't like for no reason:

Overrepping.

See, the two biggest "offenders" of overrepresentation are:

Fire Emblem
Kid Icarus

Let's see the characters they have and what makes it different from what people expected:

Fire Emblem:
Expected:
Marth
Ike*
Robin/Chrom

*Some people took Roy's cut as a pattern and suggested Ike would be cut,

We got:
Marth
Ike
Robin
#Lucina
#Roy

Hey would you look at that!
A few clones are what made the franchise "overrepped" (that and another problem of the community, which is the feverish veteranism)

Kid Icarus:
Expected:
Pit
Palutena

Yeah, Palutena was deemed to be at a divine level of shoo-in, and was very popular

We got:
Pit
Palutena
#Dark Pit

Ooooh nononono, clones don't matter except when they matter because this piece of biased **** should've never happened! /s

Result?
People are fiercely against the idea of new characters from those series, like Azura, Anna, Tiki or Viridi, Medusa and Hades.
And next game, everybody and their grandmother's dead hamster clamor for these "waste of space" clones to RETURN over unique characters of said series, creating a Zelda-esque representation. (All clones)

No such thing as Overrepping. Figment of the Smash Community's imagination. With how internal storage, flash storage and SD storage is, it's almost infinite space for characters. However, if we 'fixed' this game to be based on what the community wanted, the roster would be very small. No clones or semi clones. Therefore, the issue would be fixed, right? Wrong. Look in my previous replies. I already covered how the game would look without clones and semi clones, and another version without alter egos or said clones and semi clones. The roster? It's tiny. You ask for unique reps, but no fighting game can be that way. Clones, Semi Clones and Alter Egos are a staple in fighting games that you can never truly put down. It's been around since the original Arcade Street Fighter - it all started with Ken. You can never get rid of something that has been a tradition to have. If you hate clones that much, just appreciate that you don't have a lot of em at all. Just Down Throw into anything.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

No such thing as Overrepping. Figment of the Smash Community's imagination. With how internal storage, flash storage and SD storage is, it's almost infinite space for characters. However, if we 'fixed' this game to be based on what the community wanted, the roster would be very small. No clones or semi clones. Therefore, the issue would be fixed, right? Wrong. Look in my previous replies. I already covered how the game would look without clones and semi clones, and another version without alter egos or said clones and semi clones. The roster? It's tiny. You ask for unique reps, but no fighting game can be that way. Clones, Semi Clones and Alter Egos are a staple in fighting games that you can never truly put down. It's been around since the original Arcade Street Fighter - it all started with Ken. You can never get rid of something that has been a tradition to have. If you hate clones that much, just appreciate that you don't have a lot of em at all. Just Down Throw into anything.

You completely missed the point of my post.

My point is, because some series have clones as characters, people are less open to unique characters because they only look at the number of characters.

People feel FE has "enough" characters, or even "too much", yet there's a very low amount of actually unique characters.
If those clones weren't there, people would feel less apathy for the idea of FE gaining a character.

As a supporter of some of those unique characters, it pisses me off.

It's not how I think, but a look at an RTC-rating of a FE character shows that other people do think like that.

 

[Furret24]

1. That's what a clone is and what defines it. However, you're wrong on both notes here. Dark Pit requires a couple changes to adjust to his new specs. Lucina is also a bit different since the kill phases are entirely different.
2. Young Link is in no way inferior to Link in Melee. Higher tier. Pichu is also a definite character to question with Pikachu, since Pichu can be used in tournaments. Not that he'll defo win, but if he does win a tournament...it'll be on [redacted]. Trust me.
3. Time constraints made Ganondorf who he is. Not that I hate his playstyle - I ****ING LOVE IT.

1. Doc isn't like that, yet he's still a clone.
2. That doesn't argue against Pichu being inferior to Pikachu.

 

[Plague von Karma]

You completely missed the point of my post.

My point is, because some series have clones as characters, people are less open to unique characters because they only look at the number of characters.

People feel FE has "enough" characters, or even "too much", yet there's a very low amount of actually unique characters.
If those clones weren't there, people would feel less apathy for the idea of FE gaining a character.

As a supporter of some of those unique characters, it pisses me off.

It's not how I think, but a look at an RTC-rating of a FE character shows that other people do think like that.

Yes, I understand your feelings there. I have to agree - unique characters are being blanked and in return clones get all the headlines. It annoys everyone - why doesn't Bowser or Ryu get discussion? No one knows.

1. Doc isn't like that, yet he's still a clone.
2. That doesn't argue against Pichu being inferior to Pikachu.

1. Doc is surprisingly different, actually. He doesn't have the FLUDD, so other measures have to be taken. Same with the Down Throw not working with the up tilt and the lack of speed. You certainly didn't research anything there. Every character has multiple playstyles, and Doc is no exception.
2. I know that, it's just an example. Either way you're probably going by tier lists, which doesn't do much at all. And thanks for the...compliment, I guess?

 

[Furret24]

1. Doc is surprisingly different, actually. He doesn't have the FLUDD, so other measures have to be taken. Same with the Down Throw not working with the up tilt and the lack of speed. You certainly didn't research anything there. Every character has multiple playstyles, and Doc is no exception.
2. I know that, it's just an example. Either way you're probably going by tier lists, which doesn't do much at all. And thanks for the...compliment, I guess?

1. I know. I'm countering your point where you said the gist of clones is that they're very similar to original. Doc is pretty far from this.
2. You don't even need tier lists to see that Pichu is factually inferior to Pikachu. He is lighter and has a few moves that are weaker than Pikachu.

 

[Plague von Karma]

1. I know. I'm countering your point where you said the gist of clones is that they're very similar to original. Doc is pretty far from this.
2. You don't even need tier lists to see that Pichu is factually inferior to Pikachu. He is lighter and has a few moves that are weaker than Pikachu.

I also believe your sarcasm sensor broke. Please don't make ******* jokes on here.

1. I consider the Doc to be a clone of Luigi rather than Mario. Either way he's quite different...maybe a Hybrid (I seriously think they should be a thing).
2. The N-Air. I think they're quite equal. In Smash 4 Pichu would probably be the better choice with Rage involved.

Ehh oh well. I'm a shameless guy who has really dark humor. Not the type of guy to be taken seriously though unless I'm debating like this.

 

[Furret24]

1. I consider the Doc to be a clone of Luigi rather than Mario. Either way he's quite different...maybe a Hybrid (I seriously think they should be a thing).
2. The N-Air. I think they're quite equal. In Smash 4 Pichu would probably be the better choice with Rage involved.

Ehh oh well. I'm a shameless guy who has really dark humor. Not the type of guy to be taken seriously though unless I'm debating like this.

1. Still doesn't answer What I said.
2. Eh, no. Pikachu doesn't die at 50% and is better in virtually every other way too. Please go to the Melee boards to see what I mean.

I'm personally a fan of Dark Humor, but I do believe doing stuff like this is against site rules. Nor is it appropriate for this website either way.

 

[Kurri ★]

What is this thread?

Ehh oh well. I'm a shameless guy who has really dark humor. Not the type of guy to be taken seriously though unless I'm debating like this.

How are we supposed to take you seriously during a "debate" when you say something like this?

2. Young Link is in no way inferior to Link in Melee. Higher tier. Pichu is also a definite character to question with Pikachu, since Pichu can be used in tournaments. Not that he'll defo win, but if he does win a tournament...it'll be on *******. Trust me.

Anyways, no, not every fighting game has clones. Guilty Gear Xrd and eventually Revelator are a good example of this, not a single clone in it's cast of characters. And iirc Street Fighter V is trying to change Ken so he's not a typical shoto.

I'm indifferent about clones, if they're in cool, if they're not cool.

 

[Plague von Karma]

1. Still doesn't answer What I said.
2. Eh, no. Pikachu doesn't die at 50% and is better in virtually every other way too. Please go to the Melee boards to see what I mean.

I'm personally a fan of Dark Humor, but I do believe doing stuff like this is against site rules. Nor is it appropriate for this website either way.

1. I'd just say that Doc is a special case then. I don't get why he's considered a clone though...
2. I play Melee quite a bit, although casually due to the UK's comp field sucking. Nothing else to really say.

If I get warned, I get warned. Don't go mental over a single thing when you're not a mod.

What is this thread?

How are we supposed to take you seriously during a "debate" when you say something like this?

Anyways, no, not every fighting game has clones. Guilty Gear Xrd and eventually Revelator are a good example of this, not a single clone in it's cast of characters. And iirc Street Fighter V is trying to change Ken so he's not a typical shoto.

I'm indifferent about clones, if they're in cool, if they're not cool.

1. Read the whole sentence.
2. Major Fighting Games then. And yes Ken is changing. Personally I think 'the original clone' should stay a clone though...I mean, he gave birth to the gaming def of clone and all that. Makes sense.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

For most part, I find the concept of plain clones quite underwhelming in general, unless made somehow different from their other counterparts instead of being a freebie fanservice with usually wasted potential that in the long run isn't really better than the character they were based on as of today (Compared to Melee for example).

Shortly, I really enjoy the likes of today - as they take the mold of their originals and put their own spin to it, usually resulting in different playstyles and moves.
But characters mostly there for getting extra fanservice + beefing the roster for the sake of it () seems to only leave their fans desiring more or not really be able to bring much in the table on improving these characters without realizing their original selves are more or less better. (Also all the fandom talk in boards being done for most part because of this). And well, they're not really that difficult to hate on. I mean, unless you really like these characters, what really could be appealing about them for those not knowing about them aside from the looks and just slightly modified moves or hitboxes? Lucy bit alleviates this, but Pittoo is really becoming more a preference than some game-changing pick. Not bad, but why be annoyed at people who don't like these clones?

Speaking which, all these reasons to make all the lame "pro-clone" material I'm seeing these days which tries to paint every single reason to not like these characters as blind hate. Which I can understand due "my slots" - but doesn't mean that Lucina and Pittoo are not flawed characters at all that can't be liked because of their inclusions. Nevertheless, I'm sure people would have possibly liked them a bit more if they were just more unique instead of being just alternate costumes beefed into playable slot.

In the end, I think we could use more semiclones or give more incentive to these characters to be in this game instead of "beefing up the roster" for sake of it. Bigger isn't always better, and "plain" clones in general have become less well-received by the history of this series now, which I hope would tell the team to think more over making these characters stand out. For example, making them tad more what Melee had if being plain clones (different attributes overall, also changes in some moves if can be). It's why I'm less critical to , but I wish they'd keep giving him more his own flavour based on Nintendo's puzzlers someday and somehow make him compete with Mario & Luigi.

 

[Kurri ★]

1. I'd just say that Doc is a special case then. I don't get why he's considered a clone though...

Because he's literally Mario that hits harder and is slower.

If I get warned, I get warned. Don't go mental over a single thing when you're not a mod.

Yes, yes, what amazing logic you have here

1. Read the whole sentence.

You're trying to dissuade criticism by hiding behind the "I'm not serious" card.

2. Major Fighting Games then. And yes Ken is changing. Personally I think 'the original clone' should stay a clone though...I mean, he gave birth to the gaming def of clone and all that. Makes sense.

Guilty Gear isn't a major fighting game? It's literally the most popular anime fighter.

 

[Plague von Karma]

For most part, I find the concept of plain clones quite underwhelming in general, unless made somehow different from their other counterparts instead of being a freebie fanservice with usually wasted potential that in the long run isn't really better than the character they were based on as of today (Compared to Melee for example).

Shortly, I really enjoy the likes of today.
But characters mostly there for getting extra fanservice + beefing the roster for the sake of it () seems to only leave their fans desiring more or not really be able to bring much in the table on improving these characters without realizing their original selves are more or less better. (Also all the fandom talk in boards being done for most part because of this).

Also reasons to all more make all the lame "pro-clone" material I'm seeing these days which tries to paint every single reason to not like these characters as blind hate. (Which I can understand due "my slots" - but doesn't mean that Lucina and Pittoo are not flawed characters at all that can't be liked because of their inclusions. Nevertheless, I'm sure people would have possibly liked them a bit more if they were just more unique instead of being just alternate costumes beefed into playable slot.)

In the end, I think we could use more semiclones or give more incentive to these characters to be in this game instead of "beefing up the roster" for sake of it. Bigger isn't always better, and "plain" clones in general have become less well-received by the history of this series now, which I hope would tell the team to think more over making these characters stand out. For example, making them tad more what Melee had if being plain clones (different attributes overall, also changes in some moves if can be). It's why I'm less critical to ,but I wish they'd keep giving him more his own flavour based on Nintendo's puzzlers someday and somehow make him compete with Mario & Luigi.

Firstly, Wolf is not a clone. He shares TWO MOVES with Fox and Falco. TWO MOVES. Please do research there. He's unique. He may look like Fox and Falco, but he really isn't. I just don't like seeing blind hate with baseless and delusional accusations. Also, clones aren't added to beef up the roster - they're added in spare time. It's not for the sake of it - it's something to do. No problems I see here.

I would love to see the Doc get a move based on Viruses to be honest...

 

[Plague von Karma]

Because he's literally Mario that hits harder and is slower.

Yes, yes, what amazing logic you have here

You're trying to dissuade criticism by hiding behind the "I'm not serious" card.

Guilty Gear isn't a major fighting game? It's literally the most popular anime fighter.

1. Without the FLUDD and that shameful combo, his playstyle changes quite drastically.
2. Just pointing it out.
3. Not saying that at all. You've misunderstood. Sorry, my ASC may have caused something. I'm usually a joker, but this is a serious topic on me. Not hiding behind any cards, just saying that I don't usually take things seriously. Don't assume or you'll end up misunderstanding me a lot here.
4. Never heard of it. Not a massive anime fanatic. I watch a tiny bit, but no where near as much as before. I just follow a couple ones you probably have never heard of. To LOVE-Ru ring any bells? Thought not.