Clones - why hate them?

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Firstly, Wolf is not a clone. He shares TWO MOVES with Fox and Falco. TWO MOVES. Please do research there. He's unique. He may look like Fox and Falco, but he really isn't. I just don't like seeing blind hate with baseless and delusional accusations. Also, clones aren't added to beef up the roster - they're added in spare time. It's not for the sake of it - it's something to do. No problems I see here.

I would love to see the Doc get a move based on Viruses to be honest...

I mostly meant characters that take the mold of their original bases and give them their own spin, more or less. So might be semi-clones, some just their own persona altogether.

Blind hate and like is not really good, but again, you can't really be forced to mutter "I guess clones are just so innocent additions, I'd be quite entitled to dislike or criticize them." Some might just find them so underwhelming in practices which leads on less appreciation on the roster because it has "lazy" additions in people's eyes (which more or less could clash with personal wants on it). It's why I find Sakurai saying the ones not liking clones being "children that don't appreciate the free dessert". Like, I'd rather have my dessert paid with 4 Dollars a piece if it means it's gonna have more to it than freebie bland-tasting ones that I'm forced to love because apparently carbon copy clones have to stay some lame tradition in Smash now.

Gladly enough it's just these two and to lesser extent, Doc.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I mostly meant characters that take the mold of their original bases and give them their own spin, more or less. So might be semi-clones, some just their own persona altogether.

Blind hate and like is not really good, but again, you can't really be forced to mutter "I guess clones are just so innocent additions, I'd be quite entitled to dislike or criticize them." Some might just find them so underwhelming in practices which leads on less appreciation on the roster because it has "lazy" additions in people's eyes (which more or less could clash with personal wants on it). It's why I find Sakurai saying the ones not liking clones being "children that don't appreciate the free dessert". Like, I'd rather have my dessert paid with 4 Dollars a piece if it means it's gonna have more to it than freebie bland-tasting ones that I'm forced to love because apparently carbon copy clones have to stay some lame tradition in Smash now.

Gladly enough it's just these two and to lesser extent, Doc.

Nothing to really say to that. People have a right to dislike them, but the fact that a majority of it is plain old blind hate with the regular delusional arguments is becoming a stereotype and an instant jump to conclusions. Makes us look like a bunch of whiny kids and makes the Sony and Microsoft fandoms laugh at us.

 

[Xermo]

Firstly, Wolf is not a clone. He shares TWO MOVES with Fox and Falco. TWO MOVES. Please do research there. He's unique. He may look like Fox and Falco, but he really isn't. I just don't like seeing blind hate with baseless and delusional accusations. Also, clones aren't added to beef up the roster - they're added in spare time. It's not for the sake of it - it's something to do. No problems I see here.

I would love to see the Doc get a move based on Viruses to be honest...

Wolf shares slight variations of his special with Fox and Falco, not to mention the first frame of his idle animation is literally Fox's. A semi-clone is still a clone; you're using your personal street fighter derived definitions to justify what constitutes a clone in an entirely different game.

Also, adding characters in your spare time when they were originally costumes constitutes as beefing up the roster when they could have just left them as is.

 

[Furret24]

If I get warned, I get warned. Don't go mental over a single thing when you're not a mod.

Amazing logic you got there.

All i'm saying is that making porn jokes is something you really shouldn't do on here. It's not really appropriate for this website.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Wolf shares slight variations of his special with Fox and Falco, not to mention the first frame of his idle animation is literally Fox's. A semi-clone is still a clone; you're using your personal street fighter derived definitions to justify what constitutes a clone in an entirely different game.

Also, adding characters in your spare time when they were originally costumes constitutes as beefing up the roster when they could have just left them as is.

Wolf is a semi clone? News to me.

The dev team literally had nothing to do. The game was finished before entering beta testing periods (as in Melee and Brawl, thus Doc, etc), so they want to do something while they're waiting. What better to do than clone characters to make it easier to beta test so the deadline isn't affected in any way? Makes sense now, yes?

 

[Kurri ★]

1. Without the FLUDD and that shameful combo, his playstyle changes quite drastically.

Playstyle isn't what determines whether a character is or is not a clone, it's moveset, and considering Docs only(or biggest) difference is FLUDD, he's a clone.

3. Not saying that at all. You've misunderstood. Sorry, my ASC may have caused something. I'm usually a joker, but this is a serious topic on me. Not hiding behind any cards, just saying that I don't usually take things seriously. Don't assume or you'll end up misunderstanding me a lot here.

I don't know what ASC is and looking it up doesn't give me anything useful.

4. Never heard of it. Not a massive anime fanatic. I watch a tiny bit, but no where near as much as before. I just follow a couple ones you probably have never heard of. To LOVE-Ru ring any bells? Thought not.

Guilty Gear was at EVO

Spoiler

And To LOVE-Ru does ring bells, but that's besides the point.

Wolf is a semi clone? News to me.

The dev team literally had nothing to do. The game was finished before entering beta testing periods (as in Melee and Brawl, thus Doc, etc), so they want to do something while they're waiting. What better to do than clone characters to make it easier to beta test so the deadline isn't affected in any way? Makes sense now, yes?

WHAT?

 

[Plague von Karma]

Playstyle isn't what determines whether a character is or is not a clone, it's moveset, and considering Docs only(or biggest) difference is FLUDD, he's a clone.

I don't know what ASC is and looking it up doesn't give me anything useful.

Guilty Gear was at EVO

Spoiler

And To LOVE-Ru does ring bells, but that's besides the point.

WHAT?

1. I know that full well.
2. Undefined Autism. Won't go into further detail, but now you'll consider me a troll.
3. News to me. I'll look into it.
4. (Oh god...)

 

[Plague von Karma]

I am a game addict, but I'm more into the specific Nintendo and Sony franchises. I play a bit of Corpse Party and Touhou, but nothing else really...out there. I'm quite restrictive.

 

[Xermo]

Wolf is a semi clone? News to me.

The dev team literally had nothing to do. The game was finished before entering beta testing periods (as in Melee and Brawl, thus Doc, etc), so they want to do something while they're waiting. What better to do than clone characters to make it easier to beta test so the deadline isn't affected in any way? Makes sense now, yes?

As you yourself have stated numerous times in this thread: "do some research."

And that's some backwards logic if I've seen it. Developing anything after a game is complete only serves to increase it's replay value, or in this case, beef up the roster. Also adding more content to a game doesn't help beta test.

 

[Kurri ★]

Why would I consider you a troll for autism?

But anyways, if you understand that it's the moveset that makes a character a clone, then why is there a question on how Doc is considered a clone? Again, the only difference is D-Air and Down Special.

Look, all I'm trying to say is that while clones aren't bad (imo) people complaining about them isn't bad either, especially the inconsistent way Sakurai uses them (Dark pit and Lucina are separate characters but Alph isn't). And just because other communities are okay with them (not really, Decapre comes to mind), doesn't mean the Smash community has to follow suit.

 

[Plague von Karma]

As you yourself have stated numerous times in this thread: "do some research."

And that's some backwards logic if I've seen it. Developing anything after a game is complete only serves to increase it's replay value, or in this case, beef up the roster. Also adding more content to a game doesn't help beta test.

They beta test the content prior to release - obvious stuff. It's the main reason why the Ballot winner won't be here for a while. If we winded up not having beta tested content, it'd be a very buggy character. Also, the game wasn't officially finished - the beta test period (dates are given specifically based on predictions) hadn't been started. Thus just says of nothing. Then the costumes came into play and boom we got the 3 clones everyone hates.

Why would I consider you a troll for autism?

But anyways, if you understand that it's the moveset that makes a character a clone, then why is there a question on how Doc is considered a clone? Again, the only difference is D-Air and Down Special.

Look, all I'm trying to say is that while clones aren't bad (imo) people complaining about them isn't bad either, especially the inconsistent way Sakurai uses them (Dark pit and Lucina are separate characters but Alph isn't). And just because other communities are okay with them (not really, Decapre comes to mind), doesn't mean the Smash community has to follow suit.

1. You don't even know what stick I've got for it...
2. Launch from the Up Smash and all that. To me he feels more like a hybrid of Mario and Luigi rather than a Mario carbon copy. He is actually quite different. Similar to how Ken is Ryu with a multi hitting Shoryuken, etc in Street Fighter.
3. Alph was intended to have Rock Pikmin rather than Purples but they didn't have time to do it. I heard that Louie was considered but there's no citation. In that logic all the Koopalings deserved to be there too, right? It's inconsistent due to the problems arising from dev time.

 

[Kurri ★]

1. You don't even know what stick I've got for it...

Stick?

2. Launch from the Up Smash and all that. To me he feels more like a hybrid of Mario and Luigi rather than a Mario carbon copy. He is actually quite different. Similar to how Ken is Ryu with a multi hitting Shoryuken, etc in Street Fighter.

Well Luig is a Semi-Clone of Mario

3. Alph was intended to have Rock Pikmin rather than Purples but they didn't have time to do it. I heard that Louie was considered but there's no citation. In that logic all the Koopalings deserved to be there too, right? It's inconsistent due to the problems arising from dev time.

That explains why Alph was made into a costume, but not why Dark Pit and Lucina have separate slots.

 

[PrinceGal3n]

Generally speaking, I guess I don't mind clones, but I have some specific qualms with specific clones/semi-clones. My own personal way of viewing characters is that they have the potential to stand on their own one day, separating themselves from the clone/semi-clone status.

Honestly, I had fun playing as Doc in Melee for some odd reason, so he is fine in my book, but I just wish he would have been an alt of Mario instead of getting his own slot. They did the same sort of thing with Bowser Jr. so its not impossible.

Luigi I am fine with, seeing as how his specials are different enough aesthetically and functionally as well as most of his normals.

These three I can stand in that they too are similar like Luigi is to Mario. My only qualms is that Toon Link doesn't use more of his own unique equipment and items from Wind Waker and the like, as well as Falco being deprived of using an Arwing in his FS. Its a waste of potential from the source material if you ask me.

From what I know of Lucas (which is not a lot mind you), is that he could have used more unique Psi powers than Ness, but yet again, waste of potential same as Toon Link.

These two are probably my least liked out of all of the clones/semi-clones simply out of the sheer laziness of their execution. While it makes sense canonically that they are near mirrors of their original counterparts, to me they just seem very lacking in term of substance as their own characters. Dark Pit (as much as I am not a fan of him) could have used vastly different weapons from KI: Uprising, especially his staff in his official artwork that is used only in a clone FS of Zelda/Shiek. Lucina, having disguised herself as Marth in FE: Awakening, I can see why they made her an exact clone. Does that mean I have to like her? Absolutely not. I still say these two should have been alt costumes.

Now onto my final point. This, in my view, is the worst injustice to a playable character currently on the roster. I understand why the devs did what they did in Melee, but seriously? I would have expected better after seeing how Ganondorf showed his capabilities in sword play in Twilight Princess. The fact that he doesn't use ANY of his magic abilities, or his sword skills from the Zelda series, but is forced to maintain the farce that is Falcondorf. Very few if any of his current moves reflect his abilities as the dark wizard he is supposed to be. This by far is the most wasted potential of any character I have ever seen. Unfortunately, if he hasn't been changed for two games, I doubt he ever will, and he will remain merely a shell of the villain that he is within his own series.

In regards to , He is a completely different character than his predecessors, with the exceptions of his specials and FS, so he doesn't factor into this discussion for me.

 

[Lady Kuki]

Mmmmm... I don't really mind clones, at least not much. I am disappointed at how boring Lucina is though; she was one of my most wanted characters along with Chrom and she just ended up being a meh Marth clone.

My other problem with adding clones is that it's making the already salty Smash fanbase even more salty. For one thing, you're making a certain portion of people angry for "wasting spots" on clones. You're then also upsetting the people who deeply care about series representation. For example, three out of the five FE characters are clones. Making three of the FE characters clones not only disgusts those who are angry about representation and slots, but it also makes people think that every swordsman in FE is a Marth clone which is not true IMO.

Basically, if a series in Smash has too many clone characters, the fanbase will get mad and probably will not accept another character from the series, even if the character has the potential to be unique. It's a shame, because FE and KI have so many cool characters to choose from. I have a feeling both games will get screwed over next game in the character department, due to the amount of complaints Sakurai has been getting about the two series.

 

[Yoshister]

From what I know of Lucas (which is not a lot mind you), is that he could have used more unique Psi powers than Ness, but yet again, waste of potential same as Toon Link.

I was going to bring up how Lucas uses all but 1 of the offensive psis in Mother 3, but then I remembered his assist psis. Lucas has some wasted potential like Ganon, Doc, but at least he's pretty unique.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Depends on the clone honestly.

I never hated Roy or Pichu despite them being inferior to their counterparts in Melee because they felt a lot more different. Pichu's HP sapping self inflicting damage changes how you have to play as him for example, since you cannot spam electric attacks like you would with Pikachu.

Dr. Mario's always been a waste of space to me. Despite him playing the most different from the Smash 4 clones, as a character he's fairly redundant. Not even the person who suggested Doc wanted him as a full character if I recall, just an outfit.

Dark Pit's problem is he screams of wasted potential. So many different weapon types in Uprising, and with KI getting plenty of new stuff in Smash 4 it comes off odd that he's just a stronger Pit who can't use the Sacred Treasures FS.

I'd of been a lot more mad at Lucina had it not been for Robin softening the initial blow, and getting a new and improved Marth clone in Roy. Helps she's her own character too and not a dark mirror version or the same character in a coat.

Yup, it's dumb reasoning. Shush now.

 

[Yoshister]

Dr. Mario's always been a waste of space to me. Despite him playing the most different from the Smash 4 clones, as a character he's fairly redundant. Not even the person who suggested Doc wanted him as a full character if I recall, just an outfit.

This upsets me as a Dr. Mario fan.

You reasoning makes sense, though I'm happy Doc is back since Mario has had some moveset changes since Ssb Melee.

 

[Gene]

Now onto my final point. This, in my view, is the worst injustice to a playable character currently on the roster. I understand why the devs did what they did in Melee, but seriously? I would have expected better after seeing how Ganondorf showed his capabilities in sword play in Twilight Princess. The fact that he doesn't use ANY of his magic abilities, or his sword skills from the Zelda series, but is forced to maintain the farce that is Falcondorf. Very few if any of his current moves reflect his abilities as the dark wizard he is supposed to be. This by far is the most wasted potential of any character I have ever seen. Unfortunately, if he hasn't been changed for two games, I doubt he ever will, and he will remain merely a shell of the villain that he is within his own series.

I 100% agree. Why can't we get something like this?

I wish Sakurai would of gave 's old move set to a new F-Zero character like Black Shadow. Or Captain Falcon could've had a Black Shadow alt with Ganondorf's specials for custom moves.

 

[ErenJager]

I personally like clones, they've been in Smash since the very beginning.
Variants of characters are fun, beats this custom move stuff.

 

[Yoshister]

I 100% agree. Why can't we get something like this?

I wish Sakurai would of gave 's old move set to a new F-Zero character like Black Shadow. Or Captain Falcon could've had a Black Shadow alt with Ganondorf's specials for custom moves.

Sakuri probably hasn't done so yet because it could potentially disappoint the fans of Falcondorf (Such as myself).

 

[Gene]

Sakuri probably hasn't done so yet because it could potentially disappoint the fans of Falcondorf (Such as myself).

The fans of Ganondorf that have played OOT before Melee released have been disappointed even longer. Sakurai made the decision to add him in Melee as a last minute clone, which is the main reason why he's the way he is now. There was a better chance of Ganondorf having an accurate move set if Sakurai decided to make a sequel after Melee and made him a newcomer in that, like how some of the newcomers from Brawl were going to debut in Melee.

Imagine if you wanted a character in smash bros, and you know this character has a huge amount of materiial that you can use for a move set and play style, but he/she ended up as a last minute clone of an already existing character on the roster. Then the next game comes out and this character receives minor tweaks but still isn't fleshed out and even ends up being the worst character in the game. Next game comes out and you say to yourself, "wow Sakurai changed some move sets for characters this time around and it looks pretty good. Maybe X character will finally change it's going to be the 3rd game he/she's been in".

Nope.

 

[Yoshister]

The fans of Ganondorf that have played OOT before Melee released have been disappointed even longer. Sakurai made the decision to add him Melee as a last minute clone, which is the main reason why he's the way he is now. There was a better chance of Ganondorf having an accurate move set if Sakurai decided to make a sequel after Melee and made him a newcomer in that, like how some of the newcomers from Brawl were going to debut in Melee.

Imagine if you wanted a character in smash bros, and you know this character has a huge amount of materiial that you use for a move set and play style, but he/she ended up as a last minute clone of an already existing character on the roster. Then the next game comes out and this receives minor tweaks but still isn't fleshed out and even ends up being the worst character in the game. Next game comes out and you say to yourself, "wow Sakurai changed some move sets for characters this time around and it looks pretty good. Maybe X character will finally change it's going to be the 3rd game he/she's been in".

Nope.

I never said he was right in his thinking.

Lucas is a somewhat similar case, but nowhere near as extreme.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Stick?

Well Luig is a Semi-Clone of Mario

That explains why Alph was made into a costume, but not why Dark Pit and Lucina have separate slots.

1. As in insults.
2. Indeed he is.
3. Dark Pit, Doc and Lucina were done first but by the time they were done there was no time for Alph.

The fans of Ganondorf that have played OOT before Melee released have been disappointed even longer. Sakurai made the decision to add him Melee as a last minute clone, which is the main reason why he's the way he is now. There was a better chance of Ganondorf having an accurate move set if Sakurai decided to make a sequel after Melee and made him a newcomer in that, like how some of the newcomers from Brawl were going to debut in Melee.

Imagine if you wanted a character in smash bros, and you know this character has a huge amount of materiial that you use for a move set and play style, but he/she ended up as a last minute clone of an already existing character on the roster. Then the next game comes out and this receives minor tweaks but still isn't fleshed out and even ends up being the worst character in the game. Next game comes out and you say to yourself, "wow Sakurai changed some move sets for characters this time around and it looks pretty good. Maybe X character will finally change it's going to be the 3rd game he/she's been in".

Nope.

Main reason why they haven't 'fixed' Ganondorf is because of Melee and Brawl Fans who mained him and would want to transfer to him. If they added a 'Style Change', Ganondorf would outclass the Falcon. In a Fan Game I'm doing, I'm planning to do Style Changes for Roy and Ganondorf. The prior due to changes in Smash 4 and the latter for the sake of fans.

 

[Morbi]

I did not vote on the poll because there was no "I enjoy/love clones" option. They are my favorite characters in the franchise, easily. It is always interesting to see a pre-existing move-set altered to result in something dramatically different.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I like it myself. It feels like clones should be there for those who like the character but the actual style of the attacks doesn't fit. Lucina helped a lot of bad Marth mains become amazing Lucina mains purely because the tipper was removed. One of my friends were transformed by Lucina. From crappy Marth to epic Lucina. I personally prefer her myself.

 

[Deleted member]

I like clones/semi-clones when they make sense and are able to add in a fun character, such as





While all of these characters could be less clony, they also make sense to be so.
The problem for me is:

I get that it allowed Ganondorf to be introduced to Smash in the days of Melee, but he really should have been altered much more by now than he has. Ganondorf has always either wielded a weapon or used projectile magic. In Smash he does neither. It would almost be like Link fighting with his fists and throwing no projectiles or Samus unable to use her arm cannon. This is how Ganondorf should be portrayed!

 

[Plague von Karma]

Ganondorf does deserve the rebuild. However, it would be a slow change due to being in Melee. People just have to understand it. He has changed pretty drastically from Melee so far, so I would expect him to become his own character in Smash 5. If you want him to be less cloney in Smash 4, just custom Warlock Blade onto him through the custom menu. Maybe chuck on Wizard's Assault on him too.

 

[Deleted member]

I 100% agree. Why can't we get something like this?

I wish Sakurai would of gave 's old move set to a new F-Zero character like Black Shadow. Or Captain Falcon could've had a Black Shadow alt with Ganondorf's specials for custom moves.

OMG that video is amazing. *cries* why, Sakurai? It would have been so glorious. Pit was changed more from Brawl than Ganondorf! The injustiiiiiice!

 

[Gene]

I like clones/semi-clones when they make sense and are able to add in a fun character, such as





While all of these characters could be less clony, they also make sense to be so.
The problem for me is:

I get that it allowed Ganondorf to be introduced to Smash in the days of Melee, but he really should have been altered much more by now than he has. Ganondorf has always either wielded a weapon or used projectile magic. In Smash he does neither. It would almost be like Link fighting with his fists and throwing no projectiles or Samus unable to use her arm cannon. This is how Ganondorf should be portrayed!

Exactly! It just makes no sense for Ganondorf to still be a clone/semi clone of a race car driver who fights like a kamen rider. He should be using magic, floating around, and use a weapon. Falcondorf was a mistake and lazy decision on Sakurai's part and people will continue to defend it. I do agree about the other clones/semi clones you listed before. And even those characters could be fleshed out more if Sakurai thought it was necessary to put in more effort.

 

[Plague von Karma]

OMG that video is amazing. *cries* why, Sakurai? It would have been so glorious. Pit was changed more from Brawl than Ganondorf! The injustiiiiiice!

In my fan game (Super Smash Bros. in a 3D world, still needs devs) may use those as Style Changes like I did with Roy. Makes sense.

 

[GalacticPetey]

The only clones I don't like are Lucina and Dark Pit. I just feel they don't offer enough to the roster. Lucina is just a worse Marth (and Marth is pretty bad in this game as is), and Dark Pit only has a slightly weaker f-tilt, slightly slower arrows, and a slightly different side b.

Even Falco, Young Link , Pichu, etc. in Melee brought more to the table in terms of unique playstyle. People need to realize things like run speed, weight, and falling speed all go into how a character plays and not just their moves. Young Link being weaker and faster makes him much more unique than Dark Pit can hope to be. Melee Falco's attacks simply hitting in different directions makes him a much more varied character. Go ask any Melee player. Playing Fox and Falco are completely different tasks.

Stuff like this is why I fail to see why Doc gets the same level of hate as Lucina and Dark Pit. People say he's "just Mario in a lab-coat". Well, look pass superficial stuff like that and see that he and Mario do not play alike. Mario is much more combo oriented and speedy. Doc is better for hard reads and punishes.

 

[CadePirate]

I enjoy all characters. Although some characters like had a missed opportunity move set wise, I realize that Sakurai chose to make these characters their own because he couldn't help seeing them as their counter parts. I remember reading an interview on source gaming about how the developers just had the desire to see Dr. Mario throw a pill and not a fire ball. The way I see it is, don't like a character, so what. Other people might enjoy that character. This a game for everybody. Just because Fire Emblem has a lot of fighters doesn't mean it's subtracting on anything else. Mr. Sakurai always does his best to please everyone.

 

[Deleted member]

Exactly! It just makes no sense for Ganondorf to still be a clone/semi clone of a race car driver who fights like a kamen rider. He should be using magic, floating around, and use a weapon. Falcondorf was a mistake and lazy decision on Sakurai's part and people will continue to defend it. I do agree about the other clones/semi clones you listed before. And even those characters could be fleshed out more if Sakurai thought it was necessary to put in more effort.

I forgive Melee Ganondorf, becuase it happened out of time constraints and it was neat to see him in the game. Every version since is unforgivable.

The only clones I don't like are Lucina and Dark Pit. I just feel they don't offer enough to the roster. Lucina is just a worse Marth (and Marth is pretty bad in this game as is), and Dark Pit only has a slightly weaker f-tilt, slightly slower arrows, and a slightly different side b.

You forget the biggest differences these characters have!! Dark Pit has a less annoying voice (thus I use him over Pit), and Lucina is a girl. Sometimes people prefer girls (and no, Marth doesn't count).

 

[GalacticPetey]

Lucina's gender doesn't change the fact that Marth is simply a stronger character and renders her useless.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Actually Lucina is a lot easier to use than Marth and has some combos that can't be done with him. Dark Pit is also like Dr. Mario in terms of how he is - a slow but strong version of the original.

 

[Furret24]

Dark Pit is also like Dr. Mario in terms of how he is - a slow but strong version of the original.

That's a rather common misconception. Below, I have made a list of differences between Pit and Dark Pit. (ex. Pit -> Dark Pit)

• Dark Pit's forward tilt is weaker (40 -> 15).
• Silver Bow has a shorter lasting hitbox (44 -> 39) and has a shorter duration (62 -> 59/46 -> 43 Aerial).
• Side Special has a lower angle (80 -> 50) and does slightly more damage (11% -> 11.5%/9% -> 9.5% Aerial).

Those are literally the only differences between Pit and Dark Pit. He's barley stronger (one of his moves is weaker) and he's actually faster (if you count a single move making an entire character faster).

So much difference mate.

 

[Yoshister]

So much difference mate.

Too much difference for me. Dumb Pit is 95% original!

 

[Deleted member]

Lucina's gender doesn't change the fact that Marth is simply a stronger character and renders her useless.

Except that you'll never defeat her!

 

[Yoshister]

Except that you'll never defeat her!

Her spike is fun.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

When it comes to clones, I can tolerate Semi-Clones if they are considerably different from the character they are derived from like Lucas, Luigi, Falco, ect. However, they still have to be a tiny fraction of the overall cast, as I do not want it to become oversaturated with duplicate characters. Also, I rather they only keep one Semi-Clone/Derivative character per base moveset, which is why I wasn't fond of Wolf in Brawl regardless of how different he was from Fox overall.

As for full clones, I feel they provide nothing of value and would be happier with a slightly smaller cast and not have them in. When I play, I do not notice the "tipper" effect on Marth, so he and Lucina are identical in my book. Dark Pit is even worse as he really is just Pit in a black robe. Sure, there may be a teeny tiny difference between them, but it's not enough for me to see any reason to ever play as him.