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ChronoBound's Thoughts On The Brawl Roster.... (very long read)

ChronoBound

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
8,998
Greetings fellow Smash fans, it appears the onslaught brought about the roster revelation has finally come upon us. The next several weeks will be dark days laced with much poisonous emotions and the venom of hate and the bitterness of disappointment. This wave of hate and melancholy is another misfortunate circumstance of history repeating itself. My thread about the Melee roster leak showed exactly how we Smash fans reacted to the Melee roster over six years ago. However, I would not believe the reactions would escalate to this scale. It hurts me that the roster did not live up to most people’s expectations, however, it hurts me even more to see my fellow forum members stricken with the disease of what happens when the dreams of a fanboy are deferred. Hear me out and let these words of reason and of hope pave a path in the tunnel of bitterness and resentment.

Six years ago, many people were feeling the same emotions you are all feeling now. Disbelief, hate, disgust, sadness, and disappointment. How could rejects like Dr. Mario, Young Link, and Pichu get in over real Nintendo stars like Wario, Diddy Kong, and King Dedede? Surely, this roster was nothing more than a ruse for lolz by a few jokers. Even when reality set in, people still clung onto hope. There were two empty slots of the character selection screen, surely there were two more super hidden characters in Melee. Even myself, was taken in by this hope. Many people believed their character of choice to take up one of these two empty spots on the character selection screen. However, as history and reality would tell us, there were no more characters in Melee. People reluctantly accepted the demon roster, and looked to the brighter side of things, such as Ganondorf, Falco, and Mewtwo all being playable characters. When Melee finally landed in the hands on North American gamers, the roster was vindicated in the eyes of most people as seeing all of the massive improvements it had over the original. Many people also fell in love with characters that they did not even know about such as Marth and Roy, for some even Mr. Game & Watch (I myself was pleasantly surprised that he made it).

I believe there are several reasons why most people are disappointed with the 35-character roster. One is that the wait from Melee was over six years, whereas the wait from the original to Melee was less than three. Many people were expecting the kind of massive increase there was from the original to Melee to carry over to Brawl. Many people were also expecting that there would fair representation of Nintendo’s series. Here are the complaints I see the Brawl roster is getting. Star Fox getting three representatives when it is a series that shouldn’t have three in a roster of 35 due to it being a series with only five installments, and a massive decline in sales and popularity. Metroid getting stuck with only Samus again despite the massive resurrection the series it had since Melee’s release and Ridley himself being the most wanted newcomer among North American Smash fans. Mother getting two representatives despite being a series with only three installments (only one of which left Japan), and also declared over by its own creator (Itoi). Fire Emblem only getting two characters again, despite the series being much more popular and having fans all over the world when in contrast to prior to Melee when it was only a Japan-only series and only had fans in Japan for the most part. Popular retro characters such as Little Mac, Takamaru, Sukapon, and Mike Jones getting shafted for the likes of R.O.B., who is not much of surprise considering that he was an unlockable for Mario Kart DS. F-Zero being ignored in a big way, and being the only series from the original Smash Bros. (besides Yoshi which is a spin off series basically) without a second playable representative, despite it having spawned more games than Star Fox and Mother and as well as having a 50 episode anime. Series such as Custom Robo and Advance Wars (and Golden Sun as well) are also left without a playable representative, when Sakurai very well knows having a playable character for one of these two series would boosted the popularity and sales of the games of these series. Characters with quite a bit of popularity such as Mewtwo and Roy are cut, whereas Young Link gets to return (albeit under a different name). Mario losing a character from Melee, and not having a character to replace that loss, despite Mario not losing any popularity since Melee. The fact that only one new female character was added to Brawl (ZSS), and that there were more females added in the original (Samus and Jigglypuff) and Melee (Peach, Zelda, and Sheik), despite him hinting that he wanted more, and ironically enough, there are less female to male characters in Brawl than the previous two Smash games. The idea that the majority of the hidden characters can already be played in Melee. It is the combination of all of these grievances that have lead us to the massive pit of woes we are in right now.

Here are my three personal grievances with the Brawl roster. One is the exclusion of Ridley. Yes, I am a big Ridley fan. I have longed to play as Ridley ever since I saw the Melee opening back in May of 2001. I have been a fan of Ridley dating back all the way to 1994, when I played Super Metroid for the first time. He was just this awesome dragon-creature, and when I saw that he actually won in Super Metroid’s intro, it was something completely new to me. Up til that point, I always believed that the character you played as would always defeat the boss you are fighting, but Ridley won (keep in mind I was seven years old at the time, and up til that point my game library consisted mostly of platformers). Super Metroid was just so different from anything that I ever played, that I instantly fell in love with it, and I have been a big Metroid fan ever since. After seeing Ridley in the Melee intro, I was convinced he would be a playable character, and that he would be used to promote the upcoming Metroid game on the GameCube. However, reality would dictate that Metroid did not have the popularity yet to warrant another playable character. After the Melee roster was revealed, I kept hope that Ridley would be a playable character in the next Smash Bros. Ridley’s popularity got a huge boost between those years thanks to the massive resurrection that the Metroid series got, and also due to a new generation of gamers being able to see the awesome that was Ridley. Support for Ridley to enter as a playable character in the next Smash Bros. skyrocketed. Pretty soon he was the most requested character for Brawl, second only to Sonic. It was due to the massive resurrection and new found popularity of the Metroid series as well as Ridley’s massive popularity that made me confident that Brawl would be Ridley’s time. Unfortunately, with the leak of the Brawl roster, it seems Metroid is getting the shaft yet again. I am hoping that the next development team for Smash Bros. 4 realizes their error of making Ridley only a boss, and decide to make him a playable character in the next Smash Bros.

Another grievance I have with the roster is one that many people will probably disagree with me on. I am disappointed that Roy did not return as a playable character. Its true that Roy got into Melee as a playable character in order to advertise the upcoming Fire Emblem: Sword of Seals for the Game Boy Advance, which was released more than four months after Melee’s Japanese release. Roy was one of the two characters that I mained in Melee (the other being Samus). When I first saw Marth and Roy in the Melee roster leak, I did not really have an opinion of them, since I did not know them. I tried Marth first, but I did not really like using him (I really tried to get into Mr. Game & Watch but I just found him a bit too weak). I tried Roy and I liked what how he played. He had good knock-back, average speed and average weight, as well some nice fire effects going on. Slowly, I would use Roy more and more and would learn how to utilize all of his moves. Pretty soon, I mained him along with Samus. However, Roy’s influence on me did not stop there, Roy also made me get interested in the Fire Emblem series. Once I picked up a Fire Emblem game for the first time, I instantly fell in love with it. Fire Emblem would later become one of my favorite series ever. If it had not been for Roy, I probably would have never have picked up a Fire Emblem game, as well as many other people. I understand that Roy’s purpose was mainly as an advertisement, however, he holds a special place in my heart for getting me into what is arguably one of Nintendo’s best series. I thought a lot of the hate he got was unfair, and if he had been a top-tier character in Melee, he would probably have done a Sheik in which, although they are no longer important characters in their respective series, they get to return due to their popularity among Smash fans. I think Sakurai’s team should have at least have had used Eliwood as a proper replacement to Roy. However, it seems that Fire Emblem only has Marth and Ike representing it. I hope Roy returns as a playable character in the next Smash, and I will valiantly support him no matter what anybody says.

My third and final grievance with the Brawl roster is how there is hardly any surprise to it. There are only four unknown newcomers (one of which being Young Link with a new name and moveset). I think Sakurai should have instead opted to make most of the already revealed newcomers hidden and should have never showed them on the Dojo to begin with. I also think he should have made most of the hidden veterans such as Captain Falcon, Ness, Marth, and Mr. Game & Watch, starting characters. Also no new active Nintendo series made up one of the hidden character slots. I feel that Advance Wars and Custom Robo are long overdue for a playable representative, and that a playable representative for one of those two series would help introduce many more people to those two series.

With my grievances expressed, allow me to show you the good news in this. Brawl’s roster is basically what people dreamed Melee’s roster to be. Many people were expecting Melee’s roster to be in the late 20's, perhaps going to the early 30's. Many of the fan-favorites of that failed to get in Melee have made it into Brawl. Wario, Pit, King Dedede, Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, Pokemon Trainer (at least in Japan), and Wolf were all highly requested characters for Melee that have made it into Brawl as playable characters. Brawl’s roster has basically fulfilled the wishlists of Melee’s roster, and I feel that Smash 4's roster will be the same. Characters such as Krystal and Ridley I think will be shoe-ins for Smash Bros. 4. However, there are some characters who due to their failure to get into the Brawl roster will probably never get in as a playable character in a future Smash Bros. game. I like to call these “now or never” characters. Examples of three “now or never” characters that succeeded into getting Brawl are Lucario, Ike, and Toon Link. These characters are at the height of their popularity due to the acclaim of their games which were released recently. Characters that were very popular prior to Melee but were no-where near as requested for Brawl were Skull Kid, Banjo-Kazooie, Toad, and Waluigi. There is something that I would like to call Skull Kid Syndrome. Skull Kid Syndrome is the term I use to describe a character whose best chances for getting into a Smash Bros. game as a playable character failed, and for the following game have less popularity and a lesser chance of getting in due to being a one-shot character. Popular Brawl characters that looks to get Skull Kid Syndrome for Smash Bros. 4 include Midna, Micaiah, Dark Samus, and Isaac (unless he is made into the main protagonist of Golden Sun 3). Since it is likely that these characters will probably never star in another game, their chances of ever getting into the Smash Bros. series as playable characters have come and gone. I am sorry, but this is a harsh reality. However, I do have some good news for Masked Boy fans. Since Ness and Lucas are both Psychic-users, it is likely that if a third character is decided for the next Smash Bros. they will likely look into a more unique and important character (not simply another party member like Poo, Kumatora, or Jeff), both of which the Masked Boy fits. Also, if Mother 3 gets released internationally in some form as a result of Lucas’s inclusion in Brawl, this will make Masked Boy known to even more fans, and thus making his chances of entering as a playable character for Smash Bros. 4 higher than Brawl possibly. I have some other ideas on how other characters chances will be improved or decreased over the course of the next several years, though I feel I am going a bit off track with this discussion of Smash Bros. 4.

As many of you may or may not know, a lot of characters and features that were in Brawl were originally intended for Melee. Lucas was originally intended to replace Ness, however, due to the cancellation of EarthBound 64, Ness returned. Sonic and Snake were both supposed to be in Melee, however, the game would have had to been delayed in order to make the legal arrangements and movesets for both of their inclusions. Stuff such as stickers and Assist Trophies were also both originally planned for Melee. Sakurai also originally intended to make Adventure Mode in Melee a full-fledged game, but was forced by Miyamoto to instead focus on the multiplayer aspects of the game. To sum it all up, Brawl is basically what Melee was supposed to be.

Now on for my next point of discussion. Contrary, to popular belief, most of Brawl’s roster was decided by the fans. Character such as Sheik, Ness, and Falco probably would not have returned if it had not been for their massive popularity in Melee (especially in the case of Sheik). If Mewtwo and Roy had been top-tier characters there would have been a really good chance that both would have returned in Brawl as playable characters. Sakurai did not want to upset the hard-core gamers who main these characters, so he made them return in Brawl and also gave some new moveset (as in the case of Falco and Ness). He finally put in long-requested characters such as Wario, Meta Knight, and King Dedede. He even put in some of the more hardcore choices such as Pit and Pokemon Trainer. He even managed to put in some recently popular characters such as Captain Olimar, Ike, and Lucario. There is a chance that Sonic would not have made it into Brawl had it not been for the massive support he had among Western Smash fans. However, Sakurai’s listening to the fans was also a double-edged sword. Clones were hated by the Smash fanbase. Contrary to popular belief the amount of clones in Melee was not due to there being a time constraint, but rather they had some extra time to do it (Sakurai even mentioned in on the Japanese poll on the old Brawl site that he unintentionally reached 26 characters in Melee). Sakurai was either going to add one more non-clone character to Melee, or six clones, and he thought that Smash fans would enjoy the six clones more. I think the main grievance people had with clones were the choices, such as Dr. Mario, Young Link, and Pichu. Other than that, I don’t think anyone would have objected if we got five clones in Brawl’s roster in conjunction with the 35 non-clone characters. It is for this reason (the hatred of clones), that I think Sakurai did not add any more characters with the extra delay time (NyaseNya reported on the 35 character number in mid-November, two months would be more than enough time to add a handful of clones). So basically in a way, we are partly responsible for the 35 character roster.

As for the people saying that they are cancelling getting Brawl as a result of the 35 character roster, please don’t dismiss Brawl until you have played it. There were many people who felt the same way about Melee’s roster when it was revealed. However, the main game more than made up for the “sub-par” roster in many people eyes, and Melee became much more popular than its earlier installment. We are getting online, new gameplay mechanics (Final Smashes and Assist Trophies), a Stage Creator (which even allows you to trade them online, offering massive replay value), and an Adventure Mode that could stand alone as its own game (though I have a really strong feeling that the SSE is the reason why we ended up with a 35-character roster and Ridley and Mewtwo not being playable). Brawl smokes Melee in terms of content hands-down. I, too think much of the roster decisions were poorly conceived, however, I will reserve judgement on Brawl until I play it, much like everyone else should. I really wish Ridley was in as a playable character (looks like I am going to have to wait another half-decade in order to play as him), and I really wish Roy returned as a playable character, however, I am going to play Brawl for what it is, and hope that it blows away Melee, much like Melee blew away the original.

Six years was a long time. I went through a lot of hell between these six years, and I sure most of you have as well. Nearly every day that went by since Brawl was announced that I was thinking about Brawl’s potential roster, and now that we finally know it I am a tad disappointed. I spent hours upon hours writing massive analyses for characters that might make up our roster. Much of my predictions came true, however, some of them didn’t (such as Mewtwo returning). I am a bit happy that I had a hand in the Brawl roster leak. As many of you may or may not know, I was the first one to put together the 35-character roster based off of what NyaseNya, ChaosZero, Serebii, and ShadowXOR said after seeing correlations between what they were saying. I put most of the roster together as early as mid-December, with only two or three spots being unknown to me. Had my list not been submitted to Reno and MarkMan, we would probably still have been speculating who made up the 35 character roster leading up to the eventual roster leak. I think putting together the roster so early did both harm and good. It did harm in that it made some people abandon their dreams of their favorite character being playable as early as last week, and it did good by giving Smash fans an idea on what to expect and help better cope with it. It will be interesting years from now to see myself writing my own username in the history of the Brawl roster leak when Smash Bros. 4 is only a month from release. Other than that, I am sorry for all of you who are deeply disappointed in the roster, and I hope that Sakurai’s team begins drawing up plans for characters in Smash 4 soon after Brawl is released, that way there will be a possibility of there being 50+ character roster in that game.

That ends this very long essay on my thoughts on the Brawl roster. I am hoping that you have read the points that I brought up and I hope what I wrote has made you feel better about Brawl. As for me? When I came to SmashBoards, I said I came here primarily to analyze Brawl’s potential roster. Now that Brawl’s roster has been unveiled, there would be little sense for Brawl potential roster analyst such as myself staying, right? I have long contemplated whether to leave SmashBoards after the reveal of the roster. Since both Ridley and Roy did not make it, there is no board really for me. However, I might decide to stick around for two things. One would be that there are a lot of friends that I have made on SmashBoards and I think they might be disappointed if I left. Two, I feel as though I failed the Knights of Elibe (a Roy fan group here on SmashBoards) due to Roy no longer being a playable character (though this was really out of my control, I do feel a guilt that I did not do enough to change people’s opinion on Roy even though I am the leader of the organization). I might stick around to slowly change people’s hearts and minds on Roy, and maybe he might become a highly requested character to return by the time Smash Bros. 4 comes out. However, I am not sure whether the latter is attainable goal, though I will try my best. People of SmashBoards it was a fun time speculating the roster. I hope many of you will get over your disappointment once you all get to play Brawl.

I wish for peace to be with all of you, and thank you very much for reading my thoughts on the Brawl roster.

Sincerely,
ChronoBound
 

Masque

Keeper of the Keys
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
2,660
Location
Subcon
No, definitely don't leave. Many of us--myself included--really appreciate having another intelligent poster around to contribute to our usual banter. ;)

"However, I do have some good news for Masked Boy fans. Since Ness and Lucas are both Psychic-users, it is likely that if a third character is decided for the next Smash Bros. they will likely look into a more unique and important character (not simply another party member like Poo, Kumatora, or Jeff), both of which the Masked Boy fits. Also, if Mother 3 gets released internationally in some form as a result of Lucas’s inclusion in Brawl, this will make Masked Boy known to even more fans, and thus making his chances of entering as a playable character for Smash Bros. 4 higher than Brawl possibly."

Kinda makes me not hate life so much. Thanks for that, pal.

All in all, a highly recommended read. Kudos to you, and sorry about Ridley. (Granted, he hasn't been officially disconfirmed, but we'll see.)
 

ElectroBlade

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
203
Nice Speech...So your telling me that brawl roster was real?! I thought it was...fake XP
 

Arteen

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
1,627
Location
Vault
Let me sum that up: "The roster sucks. Deal with it. The game will be fun anyway." Is that correct?
 

Ced The Lad

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 14, 2006
Messages
100
Location
Fullerton, California
Everyone will have gripes with the roster. Myself? They lie with the absence of Krystal and Micaiah assuming the 35 roster is true (which I really have no reason not to believe at this point)

I won't miss all the speculation. It made searching somewhat tedious, but you're right though CB. The show must go on. Speculation's over. The next chapter is to find a character with a style that suits our playing style.

Gotta agree with Aeris though. Yes we get tools posting from time to time, but you're not one of them. It's a shame you'd think about leaving while those types of people troll around. Hopefully you reconsider. You're still going to buy and play this game like all of us.
 

RedrappeR

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
294
Why can't more people be like Chrono? Honestly?

To be fair, after watching the way SSE plays in those leak videos and the clip this game runs at, The roster is fine with me.

Honestly people, listen to the guy. He wrote ****ing 12 paragraphs for you. Do you know how long that is? Have you ever written 12 paragraphs. It sucks. I know. It's a ****ing essay. When's the last time you had fun typing an essay. And if you have an answer, one that was TWELVE PARAGRAPHS to try and persuade people who close their ears and yell "LAH LAH LAH" all day.

The last time he predicted an overreaction, you guys played like a fiddle and everyone was left watching people yell left and right about how if Ridley didn't make it in they'd say brawl was a crappy game(which is ********.)

But yes, in echoing points, Don't be stupid and deprive yoruself of an excellent game because you're hung up on a roster(which is essentially still much better than Melee's and contains Solid Snake, Mario, Olimar, Dedede, and Sonic. ****ING SONIC. EVERYONE WHO LIVED THROUGH THE 90'S KNOWS THAT SONIC AND MARIO KICKING THE CRAP OUT OF EACH OTHER IS AWESOME! F0CK THE OLYMPICS!). The game looks excellent, looks as if it plays excellent, and is easily killer app material.

Why you would deprive yourself from playing it is beyond me. If Sonic wouldn't have gotten into the game, I still would've picked up a copy. Honestly... can we be happy for once? For ****ing once? Come on!

raise glasses! brawl is out! IF you raise glasses, I will make all of you something cool.
 

Master_Yang

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
41
Location
A city in New Zealand
Thank you, Chrono. I've been so tempted to make a post similar to this, but you've done a much better job. All those who are whining about the roster or whatever, deal with it. This is Brawl, it'll be great, end of story.
 

Scrubs

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
1,650
Location
Brisbane, Australia
NOTE:


Characters with quite a bit of popularity such as Mewtwo and Roy are cut, whereas Young Link gets to return
Extremely biased statement. Are you actually saying that Young Link is less popular than Roy? Young Link was a tleast as popular as Roy and Mewtwo in Melee if not more. However that is besides the point. Mewtwo and Roy are past their used by dates. They are no longer active representatives of their series. Roy is most likely being 'replaced' by Ike a more current Fire Emblem character. Mewtwo (if the rumors are true) is in exactly the same situation as Roy, a good character just not the best representative for his series. Young Link was also cut. Well at least the Ocarina of time version. He like Mewtwo and Roy (once again assuming rumors are true) also was replaced by the most current, 'up to date' version of himself. I don't think Sakurai really cared which characters were popular in Melee. I think he cared which Nintendo characters were popular full stop. Choosing the newest representatives of classic series keeps the game fresh and I personally am glad that he is doing it.


NOTE: Mario losing a character from Melee, and not having a character to replace that loss, despite Mario not losing any popularity since Melee.
Losing Doc isn't really that big of a deal. He was the most similar clone in Melee and wouldn't really hold his own in a roster full of big names. Brawl is going to have the best of everything Doc was just a quick addition to Melee. I am sure if Melee wasn't rushed a better addition would have been made.

NOTE: The fact that only one new female character was added to Brawl (ZSS), and that there were more females added in the original (Samus and Jigglypuff) and Melee (Peach, Zelda, and Sheik), despite him hinting that he wanted more, and ironically enough, there are less female to male characters in Brawl than the previous two Smash games.
Totally agree. I think about this when I need to boost my hopes for a larger roster than the rumored 35 characters.

NOTE:
Now on for my next point of discussion. Contrary, to popular belief, most of Brawl’s roster was decided by the fans. Character such as Sheik, Ness, and Falco probably would not have returned if it had not been for their massive popularity in Melee (especially in the case of Sheik). If Mewtwo and Roy had been top-tier characters there would have been a really good chance that both would have returned in Brawl as playable characters. Sakurai did not want to upset the hard-core gamers who main these characters, so he made them return in Brawl and also gave some new moveset (as in the case of Falco and Ness).
Absolutely not true. Sakurai has made it very very clear that he is making this game for EVERYONE. Time and time again we little changes that are making the game more accessible to the casual gamer. From making techniques like sweetspotting and edgehogging (with the new roll onto the edge thing) easier. To the slowed down easier to control physics. I can't currently remember how many members Smashboards has, 60000 ?? This game is excpected to sell millions of copies he isn't really concerned with a small percentage of that.

Good to hear your thoughts CronoBound
 

kashikomarimashita

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
477
Location
Gotemba, Japan
Another thing. Chrono dont bail because of this roster thing only. this is where the fun part begins. Were talking strategy, cheap techniques, game glitches and so forth. This forum is on the verge of an all out transformation.
 

ChronoBound

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
8,998
Ouch, it looks like Falco and Ness may be clones of Fox and Ness, or maybe just Luigi-fied clones. They both have the same Final Smashes as Fox and Lucas. Seriously, Sakurai if you were going to bring back certain characters as Luigi-fied clones, you should have brought back Roy. :(
 

TheMagicalKuja

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 25, 2001
Messages
2,079
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I'm not telling you psychos
3DS FC
2020-0988-7919
I get this feeling, and I'm calling it now.

There are 35 characters.

Those 35 characters in the mockup are NOT the correct ones. I could be entirely wrong. I have my standards low (I don't even care for Wolf/WW Link/ROB), but if anyone surprises us it'll be nice.
 

SuperRad

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
4,965
Location
San Francisco, CA [Sometimes Santa Cruz]
My 2 cents:
The roster isn't perfect
but god**** am I in love with it.
My personal hope for a newcomer wont be in (K Rool), but that's not getting me down.
My current melee main isn't coming back (Dr. Mario), but I don't care at all at this point.

The characters that are in all look spectacular. I can't wait to play every single one. "Luigi-fied" clones arent really clones at all... Luigi plays so differently then Mario... But I digress. The roster is "small" but I can't really ask for more. Every thing I was disappointed about went away when I see those screencaps from SSE and the videos of people fighting. And that's not even to touch on the music, god lord the music in this game is amazing.

Come march, when this game arrives on peoples doorsteps they'll feel differently. They'll be excited to play this game like I am right now.
 

SuperLink9

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
1,513
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England
NNID
SuperLink9
Nice post...

Melee 2.0 with WiFi eh? ;) especially since Snake, Sonic and a fleshed out 1 player were meant to be part of Melee...

Still, what else do you do with sequels? Hopefully, if there is ever an 8th gen Smash Bros, people will finally get their dream characters.

If Ness and Falco are clones... argh. :(
 

Rakath

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
643
See... here's my big issues with the 35 man list.

Since so many Hidden spots were already well known due to being loved veterans, I (and others)expected more characters so there would be more surprise. Lucario is the only (Hidden) Unlockable that seems to have anything new. Falco is sharing Fox's Final Smash, meaning that Wolf having the same moves as those two and the same FS is likely. There's a lot of set up with no follow through as all we get in the way of new hidden cast is Lucario, Wolf, and ROB. (Note: Cel Link = Young Link, no matter what he looks like, same character). Even tossing just 3-4 spots to more SURPRISE characters (Ridley, Isaac, Takamaru, Ouendan Cheer Squad, Bowser Jr.) would go a long way.

Secondly is the series representation, Having a series lose reps, or some wholey lopsided rep boost is wrong. Mario (despite my less than favoritism for it) is a series that should have more than 4 reps, and DEFINITLY should have more than four reps if Melee had 5 reps to their name. Pokemon and Zelda standing still is okay given games have limits. Fire Emblem, a series with 10 games to its name and Metroid, a pretty sizable 8 game legacy, getting no ground gained while Mother and StarFox add another rep to their groups, BOTH sets having Reps that share moves and Final Smashes (which looks a tad lazy... given Krystal EXISTING) for characters that without question could have completely unique sets from their own series? That Isaac and Takamaru, both highly rated by Japanese fans, and while one is Japan only might make his rereleases go across the globe, don't quite cut it? If the 35 roster was a bit more evenly set-up it'd be a bit less hurting.

R.O.B. becoming playable makes me want to get an Xbox360.

Every interview with "More cast you than you can believe" or "We've really gone overboard here" or some other thing that while it says nothing it also gets everyones hopes up, two delays, and years of not knowing anything (Remember, it was in 06 that the first Brawl trailer was made). Then to have the game come out and the overall cast increase is 10 characters and one of them is a joke... not so funny.

And the thing that stings me the most, because I'm a vain and beauty seeking individual... the overall increase of the female cast in Brawl is ZERO. ZERO, NONE, ABSOLUTELY THE SAME COUNT OF FEMALES AS MELEE! Except, oh yeah, Samus takes off her armor. I'm sorry, but NO. Two series already in the game had good Female choices (Fire Emblem and Star Fox), and I'm sure there were a few femmes from lone series on the list Sakurai was working from. However, no, none, we get nothing new in the way of femme cast.

If it wasn't for those aspects of the 35 roster, I'd be a lot less rabble rousing. However I'm in an optimistic mood, I've already calculated 3 other likely roster counts using the same data on hand which make me less angry. ^_^
 

Joe_1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
41
REMEMBER

The character boxes need to be big enough to fit 4x player selectors, i think 40 would be pushing the character boxes too small.
 

ChronoBound

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
8,998
I get this feeling, and I'm calling it now.

There are 35 characters.

Those 35 characters in the mockup are NOT the correct ones. I could be entirely wrong. I have my standards low (I don't even care for Wolf/WW Link/ROB), but if anyone surprises us it'll be nice.
Sorry R.O.B. was just announced to be playable. Now the only three characters on that roster that still have yet to be seen are Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf.

So many fans got shafted by this roster. I firmly believe the Subspace Emissary is the reason why we have the number of characters we have, as well as some of the choices (such as ROB). 2ch is having a massive meltdown over ROB. Sakurai may not give a **** what overseas fansd think, but he sure as hell will be able to read the 2ch comments.

Let me borrow a FE4 quote that accurately describes this situation:

I-is that ROB? SSSSAAAKKKUUURRRAAAIII!!!!!! YOU MADE A FATAL MISTAKE!!!!!
 

kirby_fox

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 3, 2002
Messages
170
Location
In the 3rd dimension
Not to burst your bubble, but Roy seems to have Skull Kid syndrome. If they were going to use him, it would've been in Melee.

I'm not completely convinced until I see ROB being played as, and then all my hope will get out the door. (and now that I just saw ROB, I'm going to go cry some)

I think the biggest problem though is that there was no surprise to this roster. In Melee we were given a lot of characters that no one would have thought of: Mr G&W, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Marth & Roy, Ice Climbers. Even Ganondorf wasn't believed to be in the game at first, despite many confirmations coming through. The roster seemed insane, and it rightfully was. Who would have guessed Pichu and Dr. Mario would be in it? Who could've guessed about Mr. G&W?

And assuming this is true, what surprises do we have? ROB? Of course no one said for ROB to be playable, he was a generic enemy and we were fine with that. Some people might have wanted him in as a PC but they weren't fans that were going to get disappointed. Wolf? His inclusion was wanted to replace Falco, not be included with him. Many of the others we had confirmed early on, and there's no surprise there. Sure, I did a double take when I saw Pokemon Trainer and Sonic- but most people expected Sonic and PT could have been a nice hidden character for us to find out right about now. Instead, our surprises are limited and neither shocking nor pleasing.

That's another part that makes this bad. Not only is it no surprise to it but it's unappealing. Our hidden characters don't let us have any surprise or real pleasure in unlocking them. I wanted to see how G&W played in Melee and how Mewtwo was as well. I could care less about how ROB plays, how Wolf isn't a clone (and yet Falco might be?), and the rest are hidden characters.

I'm sure the only thing I can think of is that we'll have fun still, which is basically what you were saying. I just don't see the logic is all. The team should know the most important thing for a fighting game is the characters you play as. ROB is in no way obscure enough to be included, he was in Mario Kart DS and that was a good enough reason to include him then. But in a Smash game with such a small roster? Why? You have so many other characters that are better choices. So many other obscure characters that no one would have downright guessed. And yet they chose ROB.

I think I'll be first to say, when I unlock him he will be my punching bag...
 

SuperRad

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
4,965
Location
San Francisco, CA [Sometimes Santa Cruz]
One last thing:
I think the biggest thing going against this roster is we knew too much too soon.

If we had to wait to play the game [or until it leaks like right now] to find out snake and sonic were in, we would probably all be collectively crying out in joy.
 

SuperRad

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
4,965
Location
San Francisco, CA [Sometimes Santa Cruz]
One last thing:
I think the biggest thing going against this roster is we knew too much too soon.

If we had to wait to play the game [or until it leaks like right now] to find out snake and sonic were in, we would probably all be collectively crying out in joy.
 

Fawriel

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
4,245
Location
oblivion~
Sorry, but you failed to make me feel any better.

Sakurai is an incompetent *******.
The roster is the most important aspect of the game right after the engine, and we already had the engine part down. Everyone speculated about characters, everyone hoped for characters, he made it seem like it's a fan's game and then he cracks and makes the worst decisions possible.

Nobody speculated about stickers, much less hoped for them, nobody wanted ATs and many people feel insulted by their presence rather than delighted. Nobody asked for demos. Yet this useless collection of crap seems to have gotten more effort put into it than the most important aspect that everyone hoped for.

I got the character I support and I cannot feel happy about it because his colors are drowned under the grayness of a gray Fox and a gray robot.


What does a game designer do, really? The designer is the one who makes all the design decisions, right? And Sakurai was the game designer. And nothing more.
He didn't program the game, he didn't make the models, he only made several HUNDRED people work on what he wanted them to work on, and at that, he failed.
I'm going to buy the game, but that ******* is not getting any credit from me.
 

ChronoBound

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
8,998
Sorry, but you failed to make me feel any better.

Sakurai is an incompetent *******.
The roster is the most important aspect of the game right after the engine, and we already had the engine part down. Everyone speculated about characters, everyone hoped for characters, he made it seem like it's a fan's game and then he cracks and makes the worst decisions possible.

Nobody speculated about stickers, much less hoped for them, nobody wanted ATs and many people feel insulted by their presence rather than delighted. Nobody asked for demos. Yet this useless collection of crap seems to have gotten more effort put into it than the most important aspect that everyone hoped for.

I got the character I support and I cannot feel happy about it because his colors are drowned under the grayness of a gray Fox and a gray robot.


What does a game designer do, really? The designer is the one who makes all the design decisions, right? And Sakurai was the game designer. And nothing more.
He didn't program the game, he didn't make the models, he only made several HUNDRED people work on what he wanted them to work on, and at that, he failed.
I'm going to buy the game, but that ******* is not getting any credit from me.
I got some more bad news. Ganondorf does not have his sword, and there are rumors suggesting he has returned again as a Captain Falcon clone. I am going to flip if Wind Waker Link is just Young Link but only cell-shaded. :(
 

Joe_1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
41
Other games have done it. Why not Smash?
Done what exactly?

U need the box to be big enuf for 4 players to fit into. If not only 1-3 players can be that same character.

Hence the number of colour costumes is 4, i think mayb more.

I don't see any other fighting game using that character selector circle thing
 

Reyairia

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,473
So he calls this the last installment of Smash when all he did was add the characters that should have been in Melee?
That's just bull**** right there.

I wasn't hoping for a spectator mode, ATs, a story mode written by the guy who did FF VII, nope.
I just wanted Ridley in, and Mewtwo back.
Well, I just got screwed over.
And I guess the next installment (if there is one) is just going to be the same; just including the characters that SHOULD have been in Brawl.
(Which by the time it comes out I'll probably be married, might have a kid or two, and be studying hardcore in Uni as to not have any free time at all to actually play the game)
Tsk tsk.
 

Fawriel

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
4,245
Location
oblivion~
I got some more bad news. Ganondorf does not have his sword, and there are rumors suggesting he has returned again as a Captain Falcon clone. I am going to flip if Wind Waker Link is just Young Link but only cell-shaded. :(
...
Right.

In that case, let me start producing a list of all the various ways in which Sakurai deserves to be punished.



...



Ganondorf, king of all evil.
He attacks with graceful pirhouettes, hugs people and has an up-tilt that shoots an explosion from his crotch after giving you a good look at it.

If WW Link is a clone who moves just as stiffly as ****ing old Link, this game... this game........ ..... ugh.


It's times like these when there's only one truth left.
"At least I have chicken."
 

El HP

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Messages
523
Location
Managua, Nicaragua
The roster is a piece of **** there's nothing more to say, lot of stupid characters like R.O.B.(isn't even a character) and Pokemon Trainer(generic character) made it while deserving characters like Ridley and Little Mac aren't playable.
 

Darkraid

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
2,467
Location
Kalos
BTW, where is krystal? She's no where to be found. Not in SSE not in AT (yet)
 

Wyvern

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
455
Location
New England
There is one thing, and one thing only, that I refuse to accept about the proposed roster (though this particular aspect hasn't yet been confirmed as of the time of this writing). Now, don't get me wrong. There are a ton of disappointments. No Ridley sucks, no Midna sucks, no third-party characters from Nintendo's own history sucks. But these are things that I would have gotten over eventually. There's one thing that I simply can't forgive. I've said it many times here and I'll no doubt say it many more times: Falco and Wolf but not Krystal.

Falco and Wolf combined don't have a thing to contribute to this game. Not a single god**** thing. No special abilities, no special body types, nothing. They're Jumpy Fox and Heavy Fox. That's it. And Krystal has been right there the whole time, with a totally unique moveset that nobody else could have mimicked if they tried. The only Star Fox character in existence, in fact, who ever had any potential for being more than Fox with a vibrant new color and exciting new ear shapes. Sakurai knew she was there. He knew she was popular. But no! Jumpy Fox and Heavy Fox MUST be put in instead, both of them! Unique abilities, you say? Who cares about fighting abilities in a fighting game? Utter nonsense, am I right?

It's not like she would have been hard to implement, either. Give me a two-dollar Star Fox Adventures rental and twenty minutes and I'll draft up a complete moveset for her no problem. I can't even come up with an excuse from laziness. Making Krystal's moveset would have probably been easier than bending over backwards trying to make Falco and Wolf not quite identical to Fox and each other...if he even bothered with that much.

So why could they have done this? It hurts the fans, it hurts the game, it goes against all common sense. What could have possibly been the reason? Quite frankly, I can't get past "spite". It's like Sakurai didn't even care who got into the game. It's like he consciously avoided putting in the characters who would have benefited the gameplay the most. But THAT doesn't even make sense, because he sure seemed to care about moveset uniqueness when he decided on Pokemon Trainer and Olimar. So what the hell is wrong with Krystal that not one but TWO glorified clones take precedence? Is he like a misogynist or something? Does he have some bizarre personal fixation for Falco and Wolf that he has deemed more important than the good of the fans?

All I can say is thank god the Pokemon Trainer is in the game. A year on the Dojo and he's the only character who ever truly got me excited.

(Incidently, I have nothing whatsoever against R.O.B., as long as they can give him a fun and distinctive moveset.)
 

Fawriel

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
4,245
Location
oblivion~
What Wyvern said. Especially the misogynist part.

Think about it, in Melee we had, what, four female characters? Peach, Zelda, Sheik, Nana?
Peach is a barbie doll who attacks in an exaggeratedly female manner.
Nana is brain-dead.
And Zelda is the worst-designed character in the game and has to pretend to be a guy in order to stop sucking.


The only other reasons I can think of for Falco and Wolf are that he's trying to cater to the competitive base by giving us 3 nicely overpowered space animals. Either that, or he wants to reenact his favourite yaoi fanfiction.


Yes, I'm pissed, why do you ask?
 

JhMS

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
312
Location
See signature...
The problem is the hype.Thats the problem and thats why everyone hates this roster.
At least I got Wolf,but Ridley,Isaac,Rool,Claus and clone characters!
Why clones?
 

ForteX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Messages
460
Location
Florence, South Carolina
I don't have a problem with it. There's still characters to unlock. 35 would be kind of dissapointing, but I'm not banking on it being that few. I don't expect double like 64-Melee, but 40 is more logical. I'm a very big Claus fan, and I wanted to see him in more than anyone else, yeah. But him being left out, if he is, wouldn't affect my getting this game. I've been waiting for this for years. Being able to play against people online, instead of having to wait until the weekend for my friends to come over. New stages to play on, new people to play as, new things to do and unlock.... it's all great, no matter who's in. I'll support and stand by Claus being in until it's confirmed beyond all doubt that he's not playable, but I'll still get Brawl. I suggest everyone else does too. You know you'll just make a fool out of yourself here saying stupid things, and still get it.
 

Chaosblade77

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,958
I have to agree with you on pretty much all of it Chrono (except the Roy thing, but that is a completely different topic).

When the roster first came up with some reasonable evidence, I just looked at it and laughed. R.O.B. playable, even though he is a generic subspace enemy? Such unbalance in the franchise representation? The general characters chosen? None of it made any sense, and it still doesn't.

The problem is now, I look at it and think it's real, no more laughing at the people trying to prove it is real. I showed that roster to several friends and gave them plenty of reasons why it wasn't real, and told them not to take it seriously. They didn't have near the expectations people on these forums have though, so they still might not mind seeing it.

Sakurai really let everyone down with the roster, again, yet the game should still be completely amazing. When I saw the intro video, even if it was not as good as Melee's in general (since it was all SSE cutscenes) I totally forgot about the poor roster and just wanted to play the game. Just because "my character didn't get in" wasn't a reason to cut my preorder or anything, especially since the characters I really wanted had no chance at all, save for Lyn who got AT.

I was getting used to the idea of the roster though, prior to this thread. Up until now, so to speak, it was sinking in and I started to think "it's not that bad, there just aren't anymore surprises." Well, the talk of more clones has really ruined all of the pep talking I gave myself about this roster. Falco and Ness are both clones? Ganondorf and WW Link seem to be? Those take the nightmare roster and cause it to class change into a night terror roster.

About the roster choices, most of them make sense in some crazy, twisted or demented way. Examples:

- The general stereotype about pro/hardcore Smashers contains "Fox only." He, and Marth to a lesser extent, is the iconic character of hardcore Smash for that reason. Sakurai sees this popularity Fox has, as well as his counterpart Falco. It's then logical to make another similar moveset on another part of the spectrum to make these players happy since they like the StarFox reps so much.

This is obviously untrue though, due to the nerfs. Fox and Falco would not have been popular without advanced techniques and the shine. The characters aren't popular, the broken movesets are. Take the movesets away and what do you have, three characters from a now-low-tier Nintendo franchise.

Another example would be that Sakurai likes surprises. People expect all of these awesome characters in the roster, and then SURPRISE we get R.O.B. and more clones. While it seems kind of like a joke, I am actually being completely serious here. After reading the Iwata interviews, I honestly think it's something Sakurai would do.

Then R.O.B. who is really the perfect wtf character for the game, as long as you aren't a very hardcore gamer. For the average Wiimote waggling casual gamer that decides to pick up Brawl on his first console ever since the NES, R.O.B. will be a serious surprise. Heck, I figure a lot of people won't even know what he is considering gamers these days (well, at least a lot of the ones I see don't consider anything "real gaming" before Xbox and PS2). But really, after Game and Watch, it really makes sense a character like R.O.B. would get in; if anything it's too obvious.
 

Aurora Jenny

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
1,158
Location
Spring. Texas
NNID
Dart_Rodales
I am hypervientilating here. This is definitely a big disappointment. Brawl is going to rock regardless, but at the same time I'm going, "WTF?" I agree with Wyvern and Fawriel on my questioning of why Krystal was ignored. She was an expected addition, especially with Alesia Glidewell confirming her appearing, but we have yet to see even reports of an assist trophy. For all that challenges.. what are we unlocking in the other modes? Stages, trophies, CDs? ..... Corocoro said that characters would be unlocked through the other modes and also via gameplay time. Where are those unlocks? 90% of the unlockables are through SSE. Gaah.. my head hurts now. Things are not adding up at all. True, technically we have 39 characters counting transforms and P.Trainer, but.. I don't get it at all...
 
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