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choknater vs zhu videos, advice please

choknater

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choknater
here's my set against him at the recent biweekly, i lost 0-2

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MA3CRclgO5o
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ldYlw21moc0

i had a lot of obvious mistakes. but other than that, is there a problem with my play style overall? what is it about his strategy that makes him so hard to fight? i used to destroy falcos..

i can hardly grab him... what can i do to set up grabs?
 

Jam Stunna

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In the first match, I think you were just a little too cautious. You didn't really keep the pressure up on him, so it gave him the breathing room he needed to get all his Falco gayness going. The best way to beat a Falco like that is just to out-offense him.

In the second match, aside from the obvious mistakes you already pointed out, I don't think there's much you could have done differently. Dreamland is a hard stage to fight Falco on. Honestly, it just looks like you were having an off day.

Just keep the pressure up. I have a rule when fighting Falco: If the match goes longer than four minutes, then I've lost. Don't go berserk with your attacks, but put him on the defensive and you've got a real edge on Falco. Platform-dash around to avoid the lasers. or just take the laser hits if you have to. You don't want him to play keep-away the whole match.
 

Cyphus

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i don't know if its your playstyle or what not, but in my experience fighting falco with ice, i use UpTilt alotmore and full jump iceblocks here and there just to throw off his rhythm.
alot of times u were just shielding when maybe a f.tilt would have sufficed, or if u suspect a pillar uptilt goes right to grab (but u know that). iunno..thats my take on it, not that i'm an iceclimbers expert, but they are my 2nd, and my preferred character over doc versus capt, sheik, and falco.
overall good stuff though. Zhu is a really tough falco :/
 

Binx

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Well first off I notice a lot of times where you could grab but chose to go for smashes, I think you just need to mix it up a little more, when you think he has time to shield you should grab more, you are obviously used to playing people who don't shield and Zhu does.

Second you do a lot of Uair to dair, I know the dair is guaranteed but you should try some more nairs after the uairs, he was reacting to fast for you to follow up out of the dair and his shines were too fast for you to grab after those, also I saw him shield a lot of the jabs you were trying after the uair dairs. I would say just uair and go for a tech chase or uair and shoot for a nair, when he is off the ledge you should go for a few more dsmash edgeguards, that game he was consistently not sweetspotting his forward b's (obviously on purpose) but you never really changed it up, in the heat of that kind of battle though I don't think I could have done nearly as well as you did.
 

AzN_Lep

Smash Champion
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- Light Shield -
Light shielding is an extremely important option to consider when fighting a Falco. Typically Falco will approach with SHL -> shffl'd d-air -> JC shine -> some sort of full hopped aerial. These are the easy Falcos. You can just hold your hard shield up against the shine rather than going for a grab, wait for the to jump, and follow with an up air. It's when the Falco's constantly shuffle d-airs -> JC shines that IC have a problem. With a hard shield up, you'll find yourself getting locked up and make a dumb decision.

This is where light shielding is important. If you get hit with the d-air while light shielding, you'll slide back. This does 2 very important things. It distances you away from the shine allowing you to make a better decision, and it can mess up a lot of l-cancel. Both of these allow you to react favorably. Jab -> grab, dash attack are good offensive choices. U-tilt and f-smash are good defensive choices.

Light Shielding also deals with Falco's down throw. I know what your thinking, "ICs worrying about Falco's throws? Boulder dash!" Well unfortunately, d-throw messes up ICs pretty well, if Falco can grab Popo that is. The hitbox from the laser stuns Nana so she can't rescue you with a d-smash or jab. If you light shield correctly though, Nana's shield will be larger than Popo's (not sure if this is the reason) and Falco grabs Nana rather than Popo. All you have to do is keep shielding until he throws, then punish.

- Edge Guarding -
Every time you knock Falco of the ledge do your best to make sure he dies. A good Falco is way too dangerous to let back on the stage, regardless of his damage. Luckily edge guarding Falco isn't all that difficult. First thing you want to do is judge where Falco's going to be recovering from.

From Below:
When Falco's below you, he's has 2 options. Sweet spotting the ledge or overshooting it. Of course pretty much every Falco is going to opt to sweet spot so here's what you do. Instead of charging a d-smash that can be teched or missed, you should do a ledge hopped d-air. This way even if he decides to overshoot the ledge, you'll connect with the d-air and send the Falco into panic. After they panic, most Falco's will try to up B as fast as they can, making sweet spotting near impossible. Here's where you go for the d-smash. Try and space as well as possible and connect d-smash after they've passed the ledge, so they'll miss the tech.

Even to the ledge:
Not a lot to say here, he can phantasm or firebird. Most the time he'll be to far to firebird back on to the stage though. Pretty much all you need to do is ledge hog and roll. Dead. If he close enough firebird onto the stage, he's also close enough to eat a ledge hopped b-air. This usually finishes him off or sends him to the recovering from below option.

From Above:
Here's the trickiest Falco to edge guard. He can phantasm/firebird above you or firebird to sweet spot the ledge. Don't bother to try and interrupt his phantasm, just follow him up with a d-smash or grab. When he goes for the fire bird is when it gets fun. Falco can go for the ledge, go above you, or go at you. A whole bunch of options open up for you now. You can try and guess: either charging a smash or go for an up/b-air. Problem is half the time you're going to be wrong. I found two good alternatives. The first one is go back to the ledge hog idea. Then ledge hop an u-air, hopefully you'll connect and it could lead to a b-air. The other more creative (unfortunately less practical) method is to desynch Nana to charge a f-smash and have Popo go for an u-air. You should be able to get it off right on time if you side step desynch right as you see Falco start his firebird. The button combination is a little tricky at first (Dodge, smash and hold A, tap X/Y while holding A, release A and tap it again for the aerial attack.)

- Dealing with Lasers Approaches -
Make sure to jump and fire ice blocks to give yourself some room to work with. Falco has to deal with them. He can full hop, shield, shine, roll, or just take the hit. No matter what choice he goes with it stops the lasers stop for a little bit. The first thing you want to do is get closer to Falco, so in this down time wavedash in. If you're already relatively close you can punish his decisions. Full hop is punished with u-air -> b-air; shielding leads to grabs (watch out for side steps); if he shines go for a f-air; and if he rolls use a dash attack -> **** (grab/smash/u-air.)

If you feel that Falco is getting to close, a lot of the time you can get away with rolling away from him and desynching a blizzard. Alot of the time they'll try to f-smash or d-air and eat the blizzard, in which case you get a nice grab. Be careful to not roll behind Falco. He can f-smash you faster than you can throw out a blizzard. Rolling away with a desynched blizzard is also a great way to start off one of Falco's stocks. When you roll you seem vulnerable, and they rush to punish you, only to be met with a blizzard.

The key thing to remember here is don't let him camp you. If he's firing lasers at a distance make sure to send ice blocks his way so you can get closer. If you sit on the other side of the map waiting for him to come to you, he'll just shoot lasers all day long. On top of that IC are to agile in the air, as far as approaches go, so this rules out pretty steadily.

- Last Note -
It's always going to feel like Falco's exerting the pressure in this match until you either get him in a grab or start a combo. Don't worry about it too much. Falco player's are scared sh*tless of your grabs and smashes. Just be patient as wait for your opening.

Hope this helps out.
 

choknater

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choknater
ah thank you guys for the tips, they helps a lot.

azn lep i look forward to reading some more of your advice
 

Lixivium

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Not responsible for any matches lost or humiliation suffered as a result of taking my advice.

Yeah missed edgeguards was the most obvious thing I saw. He's illusioning instead of sweetspotting with Firebird, so once he's off I'd stand about two character lengths away from the edge and shield. This way you can WD out of shield to hit him if he goes past you, and if he drops to ledge level you can WD to edgehog or D-smash. If he switches to sweetspotting...you'll have to think of something else.

He's definitely getting around your shieldwh0ring with his pillars and especially GRABS. I specifically remember Zhu talking about laser -> throw on these forums so you gotta be ready for that ****. Roll away, spotdodge, or better yet don't put up your shield in the first place. Let one IC take the laser and hit him with the other one. Approach him more with WD tilts and jabs. He'll F-smash you out of some of those but it's better than being stuck in your shield all the time.
 

Binx

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In my experience lasers tend to hit both ICs pretty often, I used to think that was the best way to do it but falco is too fast for that a lot of the time, basically if falco goes off the edge he needs to die, but on the stage I don't really understand how to counter everything, light shielding sounds good I'll try to impliment that more.
 

billythegoat

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Lately I have been losing to Falco's too, but here is some advice that might help. As many have said you should use more light shields. I would also suggest that you use more short-hop-nair. The short hop will put you in front so you will most likely take the laser, but your Popo should get through, but like I said I've been losing to Falco's lately too so I don't know how good my advice is.
edit: I would also suggest that you desynch to blizzard off of some of those rolls.
 

pockyD

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ftilt is really good for reacting to the over-the-edge illusion/phantasm

and actually ftilt is a really good move in general - good speed, disjointed hitbox, and very little lag (seeing as nana's comes out a few frames later, giving you more time to recover)... and ftilt on the stage almost always forces a tech, and tech-chasing is the best way to get grabs vs falco

also a fun thing to do is dash attack through misspaced lasers - one climber will eat the laser while the other can get a cheap dash attack in, which is often a free grab or dsmash... use sparingly of course but it is pretty effective

also i think dreamland is bad vs. falco =\ too much of a pain chasing him around... i like FD/battlefield/fountain
 

choknater

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hmm yeah i made that mistake of picking dreamland against him, i thought more space would be useful to me but it really wasn't.

something interesting: it was actually incredibly hard fighting Falcomist the same day on final destination... he used the stage like dreamland and was able to camp me using the large amount of space that was there. his falco is WAY to clever to get around, even on FD... i think next time i'm just gonna have to put the pressure on him instead of him putting it on me.

another really interesting thing i found that day was the difference in Falcomist and Zhus' style. Falcomist is very patient, waiting for moments to combo the IC's and then maximize the combo whenever he gets the chance. then he returns to very good laser camping which he does in such a way that ice blocks are ineffective.

Zhu, on the other hand, is pretty aggressive the entire match. however he, unlike Falcomist, knows how to fast fall and l-cancel his dairs against two ice climbers. however, he makes more mistakes than Falcomist because of his aggressiveness and he's easier to catch with hits and grabs. Falcomist, on the other hand, is easier to hit with random dash attacks and wavesmashes.

thank you guys, all of you, for your help... i think i will have a much better shot against them next time. i hope i can, haha, these guys are pretty much the top echelon in my area (besides silentspectre)
 

AzN_Lep

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Man I wish the top players in my region were fast fallers. I have Jiggs, Samus, Marth, and Peach. In that order.
 

Binx

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Man I wish the top players in my region were fast fallers. I have Jiggs, Samus, Marth, and Peach. In that order.
Quoted for damn truth I have like 4 Marths in the top 5 of my state.

Fun fact though, if a peach player doesn't know how to fight ice climbers they run into a bunch of roll blizzard grab set-ups and it makes me laugh cause I two stocked him.
 

choknater

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*sigh* it's because our DBR floaty players (bob$, king, hella) all stopped coming to tournaments -___-

i miss them

azn lep i did a bit of training (and i even got a new controller) and thanks mucho for your advice. and everyone else too. i think next time i will have a much better shot and maybe even win. i don't really need this thread anymore hehe.
 

AzN_Lep

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well Zhu tore me a new one LOL. I see where you're coming from choknater haha

1st match was last stock high percent, he won.... I was dumb
2nd match I counter pick FD, Zhu goes Falcon... you do NOT go Falcon against me wtf!? I ****, 3 stocked i think.
3rd match he goes to FoD. Falco is NOT supposed to move that fast. Platforms that are close to the ground make me cry... I think I got 2 stocked, it was pretty ugly though.
 

choknater

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i knooow! hes tough! gah. but i mean, at least you ALMOST beat him. i was way too overwhelmed. i pulled ahead on the first match for a little bit, but he took control and i lost composure.

i think that's the trick against a falco like that... i watched chu vs shiz again, and it's a matter of not losing composure. chu was getting pressured like hell against him, but then a single chain grab and it was pretty much done for falco.

zhu isn't QUITE as technically precise as shiz, but pretty close sometimes, and also he does know a little more about the matchup than shiz (though might not do as well against someone like chudat...) but anyways. yeah.

i just remember that zhu would take more risks than when i played Falcomist, who played much more patiently. zhu would in turn make more punishable mistakes... but i made mistakes when trying to punish those... so i guess it's just a matter of playing better next time.

anyways, falco is fun, and i've actually been playing him a lot more than ic's these days just to get a better feel of how to beat him. my friend HomeMadeWaffles always says "falcos these days are a whole new breed" and i TOTALLY agree with him. strategies that used to work against falco, like gimping and CGing, they aren't just cutting it anymore as falcos are getting better tech skill and pressure efficiency. so yeah, i'm still learning more.

i don't know if i can take zhu next time, but i'd probably do a better job than last month.
 
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