"Chills of the Fever" - Dr. Mario Matchup Discussion

[Macchiato]

I've added Luigi and Mario to the MU Chart.

So wait, are the final scores gonna be Kisatamuras score or all the scores combined together? I think we should combine them.

Doc v Peach

Neutral game
Peach pressures with lots of dairs. This could rack up percent fast and lead to combos, if the doc main doesn't know how to deal with it. There is time between dairs for a SH nair, SH uair, SJP, or utilt. At low percents she has grab combos, which are, dthrow to bair, dthrow to fair, and uthrow to parasol, so watch out for those. they stop working after 50%. Our bairs can easily keep a floating peach walled out. Most of her approaches are from floats so we can stop her with bairs. Our pills are very effective her since shes tall enough to get hit by them. Vegetables is an approach option for her but if you see one, just cape, catch, or shield. We don't want to be under her with her new uair since its disjointed and juggles really well. Her Fair has great range, but a smart peach wouldn't use it too much since its their main killing option. Our combos do work on her but your uair chains won't. Her floatiness helps her escape our non-true combos. OOS is an important factor to this MU. Her fair is auto cancelable right away like it used to and now a missed fair will get punished. Almost all her moves are punished by SJP OOS so that could be used very well. Our moves have less lag than hers so it'll be a little hard for her to punish us.

K.O.s
Peach's killmoves and approximate kill percents
Fair 90%
Sweetspot-Usmash 80%
Sourspot-Usmash 100%
Frying Pan 85%
Tennis Racket 95%
Golf Club 110%
Bthrow 130%
Parasol Dependent%
Doc's Killmoves and approximate kill percents
Sweetspot-Fsmash 60%
Sourspot-Fsmash 80%
Usmash 85%
Dsmash 90%
Offstage-Dr. Tornado 75%
Fair 75%
SJP 100%
Bthrow 130%
As you can see, doc has a lead in K.O.s this MU.

Offstage
Peach can easily edgeguard us with a turnip or a floated aerial. For the floated aerials, a well timed SJP could work in your favor and help you get the kill instead, but its risky because you have to be certain that at that point you would make it to the ledge. Edgeguarding peach could be tricky since she can mix up her options since she has floating, parasol, and peach bomber. While floating she can do an aerial and get him off. We can dr. tornado the peach bomber or cape it. If she parasols, pill or shield at the edge then punish if she doesn't sweetspot the ledge.

Stages
Battlefield is great because we can easily abuse those platforms more than she can. I feel that delfino is a bad stage for us in this MU because the stage base lets her float and uair under it and the transformations have low ceilings which help peach because she has that usmash.

Score
5-5

 

[Gunla]

They are just general scorings I took from common consensus. They're subject to change, but right now they match up with Kisatamura's.

 

[Kisatamura]

Let's start the Peach discussion! My brother in Reno plays Peach a lot in Melee and Smash 4, so this matchup is very important to me. I'm not doing my full writeup yet, but hopefully this brings more discussion about Peach.

Peach reigns in the air, floating and trying to hit you. Take your game to the air with Dr. Tornado and your bair.

Matchup: Vs Peach

Attributes: Peach has an average air speed and floaty jumps. While she's light at 89, her hover makes her able to kite Dr. Mario. She also runs faster than us.

If there's one thing I've learned from playing against Peach with Doc so many times in Melee, is that her strong aerial attacks, potent projectile and her floating can make this match very defense oriented. While her projectile isn't as dominant as it was in Melee, Peach does have good aerial attacks so this match will probably be played in neutral. Unlike in Melee, Doc's bair is pretty safe against a floating Peach so your aerial approaches should usually be bair, Tornado if you keep on getting beat out by Peach's bair or nair, or your own nair in special cases.

Peach's nair is something I'll mention, because it has really fast startup and knocks Doc away pretty far. Pay attention for it or anticipate it, because if it's blocked or missed you get a free punish.

Moves to look out for:

Float: I'll write up a whole section on Peach's float due to it being really important for Peach. For right now, if she's floating and is far away from you, don't hesitate to throw some pills and approach. She can move in and back if you try to do approaches with moves like bair, so try using Tornado to move into her when she's floating.

Nair: Somewhat explained already, it's a great OOS option for Peach.

Bair: Common approach method for Peach as she whacks you with her butt. Can be beat out by using your own bair. Peach doing a reverse float into bair is a common approach, and is also used offstage for edgeguarding. Tornado into it if bair isn't doing the job.

DThrow, Ftilt, and Dtilt: I grouped these moves together because they're combo starters for Peach. But alas, they're also short ranged! Don't let Peach get too close to use these.

Uair: Peach's uair is disjointed to an extent. It can be used to juggle you, so watch out for it.

Fair: Peach's fair is better than ours. It's pretty fast, but it's terrible if it misses or is not autocanceled.

Dash Attack: Thankfully Peach's DA isn't as uber safe as it was in Melee. It's still pretty fast so make sure you block it.

Turnips: Peach's turnips are not as fast as they were in Melee, and deal less damage. While they shouldn't be a problem at early percents, a Stitchface can kill you at high percents. Either way, cape them or get rid of them. Peach using turnips is somewhat of a commitment to Peach nowadays.

Toad: Peach's counter. If she's getting too greedy with Toad just grab her.

Peach Bomber: SideB starts up really fast in this game for Peach. Block it or spotdodge so you can punish Peach.

 

[Luggy]

Let's start the Peach discussion! My brother in Reno plays Peach a lot in Melee and Smash 4, so this matchup is very important to me. I'm not doing my full writeup yet, but hopefully this brings more discussion about Peach.

Peach reigns in the air, floating and trying to hit you. Take your game to the air with Dr. Tornado and your bair.

Matchup: Vs Peach

Attributes: Peach has an average air speed and floaty jumps. While she's light at 89, her hover makes her able to kite Dr. Mario. She also runs faster than us.

If there's one thing I've learned from playing against Peach with Doc so many times in Melee, is that her strong aerial attacks, potent projectile and her floating can make this match very defense oriented. While her projectile isn't as dominant as it was in Melee, Peach does have good aerial attacks so this match will probably be played in neutral. Unlike in Melee, Doc's bair is pretty safe against a floating Peach so your aerial approaches should usually be bair, Tornado if you keep on getting beat out by Peach's bair or nair, or your own nair in special cases.

Peach's nair is something I'll mention, because it has really fast startup and knocks Doc away pretty far. Pay attention for it or anticipate it, because if it's blocked or missed you get a free punish.

That's a nice image by the way.

Anyway, I never encountered a lot of Peaches in Smash 4, since she's a technical character to use, and she's not played a lot in tournaments.
However, my experience with her is pretty much like everyone else. She has the air for her, but by playing defensive, Doc can still won the matchup. They are pretty even overall, and I feel this matchup is like Mario : it's tight, but it's okay.
I still don't have a lot of information about her, but I think Doc can pull himself up with this matchup thanks to his power. Just don't get Nair, Dair and Fair a lot, space out right with pills and Bairs and Doc should be alright.

So, for me right now, it's a 50:50. Again, I still need more information and experience against her, but that's how I feel about it.

 

[Kisatamura]

It should be pretty even, much more than in Melee. Tornado really helps in this matchup because it'll catch Peach floating if she's near you, though she has a better aerial moveset than us.

The only thing I'm concerned about is Peach offstage. She can float and use bair on a recovering opponent, and it'll usually gimp Dr. Mario. Dr. Tornado should be able to beat bair though.

 

[Luggy]

It should be pretty even, much more than in Melee. Tornado really helps in this matchup because it'll catch Peach floating if she's near you, though she has a better aerial moveset than us.

The only thing I'm concerned about is Peach offstage. She can float and use bair on a recovering opponent, and it'll usually gimp Dr. Mario. Dr. Tornado should be able to beat bair though.

The Bairs helps a lot in the neutral game, it catches Peach easily. But I agree with you, she pretty much won off stage, like any good character in the air against Doc.

 

[warionumbah2]

Her ground game is bad, she's slow,her moves have less start up than Docs,other than jab she has no decent pokes. Playing defensive is something she struggles with and how do we play Doc? Turnip combo's are situational and her taking a turnip out takes longer than before, you should be able to punish her with DA at least.

Example of her struggling against our defensive options: our U-Smash beats anything she has to offer in the air, our bair comes out fast and hard to punish due to her speed. Worst thing a Peach can see is our backs towards her, if she comes from the air we catch her with U-Smash while the hatch is closing, if she comes at us we can bair her with good spacing we can avoid punish. She got good combo's out of throws but we can dish out more damage from consistent down throw follw ups and sweetspot bairs that are surprisingly easy to land.

Off stage can be avoided not all players are on point with their gimps the chunk of the battle will be on ground something Doc dominates on. In my first post in this MU i didn't give my full score so here it is 55:45 my reasoning is a combination of my last post and this.

 

[Kisatamura]

Her ground game is bad, she's slow,her moves have less start up than Docs,other than jab she has no decent pokes. Playing defensive is something she struggles with and how do we play Doc? Turnip combo's are situational and her taking a turnip out takes longer than before, you should be able to punish her with DA at least.

Example of her struggling against our defensive options: our U-Smash beats anything she has to offer in the air, our bair comes out fast and hard to punish due to her speed. Worst thing a Peach can see is our backs towards her, if she comes from the air we catch her with U-Smash while the hatch is closing, if she comes at us we can bair her with good spacing we can avoid punish. She got good combo's out of throws but we can dish out more damage from consistent down throw follw ups and sweetspot bairs that are surprisingly easy to land.

Off stage can be avoided not all players are on point with their gimps the chunk of the battle will be on ground something Doc dominates on. In my first post in this MU i didn't give my full score so here it is 55:45 my reasoning is a combination of my last post and this.

I'll agree that reverse USmash can wreck a Peach pretty badly. Looking at Peach now, she does have some problems on the ground, with her only real approach option being DA which in this game can be punished by anyone if they block it. Still, Peach's aerial arsenal is something that I keep on looking at because a good Peach can use float to bait Doc's attacks, though float can be punished by Dr. Mario's pills. Still, her offstage game is easy to set up by a good Peach player, not somebody who doesn't float offstage and use one of her kill moves. Tennis Racket FSmash is the only move I can think of on Peach's ground game that is dangerous since it can semi spike.

Essentially, this matchup is easier than it was in Melee. I'll go even, but Peach's aerial game is relatively short ranged but strong, so Doc can outrange her in the air. If the aerial aspect of this MU is easier for Doc to take control of, I'll put it as 55:45 or 60:40 in Doc's favor.

We should probably look at glide tossing for Peach because it can lead to combos for Peach.

 

[Kisatamura]

I've been kinda thinking about the MU versus Luigi, since Cyclone gimp is a very scary thing considering that even if your character can recover, Luigi is capable of using dair to meteor you, unless you're just a character with a really good recovery move.

I found this to kind of help explain the MU for Luigi (Using Nairo's Dark Pit)

If you've watched the video, you can see that Nairo is essentially outranging Luigi and making sure that he doesn't get grabbed too often. Also another thing: While Nairo didn't really start to capitalize on Luigi's Green Missile recovery until the end of the video, Luigi is very vulnerable during the endlag of Green Missile and Cyclone. While I know that the two Pits are much mobile than us, the basic rule applies of trying to force Luigi offstage where we can hit him with Dr. Tornado and potentially stage-spike.

Considering that Doc's have pills in order to have a presence in neutral, we made need to out-maneuver Luigi on the ground, or at least bait him into whiffing the throws. The video shows Boss doing his jab confirms, but if Luigi can't land his throw then most of his damage output is thrown out the window (Outside of DA, but that's incredibly unsafe)

 

[Awesomecakes]

Waaah, peach really is undermained =P. Y'all have such thriving discussion here. I wish we did too. ='(

I agree with a lot of the stuff said here. Nice breakdown of our moves and general gameplayn. From far away, pills do a really good job. They force us to block or go in the air where we will be vulnerable to Bair or UpAir. Up close you can snuff out Dair approaches. But peach can really gimp doc. if you're stuck without a jump its really tough for him, especially since Peach can use Toad to counter Doc's Up B when he recovers.

Also, i'm not sure how well Doc does in approaching peach. I like to cover both dash attack and grab with Dair, and I don't think Doc has the greatest aerial mobility to be able to get in with Nair, and i'm not sure if it would lead to much anyway. A good option could be Tornado, but Toad counters this effectively if you just throw it out.

Though i'd need to play more against Doc. Speaking of which, i'm free for most of tomorrow if anyone wants to play and get some more experience in the matchup.

 

[Kisatamura]

Waaah, peach really is undermained =P. Y'all have such thriving discussion here. I wish we did too. ='(

I agree with a lot of the stuff said here. Nice breakdown of our moves and general gameplayn. From far away, pills do a really good job. They force us to block or go in the air where we will be vulnerable to Bair or UpAir. Up close you can snuff out Dair approaches. But peach can really gimp doc. if you're stuck without a jump its really tough for him, especially since Peach can use Toad to counter Doc's Up B when he recovers.

Also, i'm not sure how well Doc does in approaching peach. I like to cover both dash attack and grab with Dair, and I don't think Doc has the greatest aerial mobility to be able to get in with Nair, and i'm not sure if it would lead to much anyway. A good option could be Tornado, but Toad counters this effectively if you just throw it out.

Though i'd need to play more against Doc. Speaking of which, i'm free for most of tomorrow if anyone wants to play and get some more experience in the matchup.

Dr. Mario approaches are something that I find very hard to define. Of course, there are people that will rush in mindlessly and use his Dash Attack which is terrible against a competent Peach. I'm sure that most Marios, Dr. Marios and Luigis will just attempt to move in with shield since all three want to move in closer. But with Doc, the pills will just force Peach to either avoid it or shield it. Though I do agree that a Mario or Doc attempting a grab up close will get stuffed out by Peach floating, as uair just doesn't have the priority to beat Peach's dair even though Doc's uair starts faster.

A Dr. Mario approaching from the air would usually use bair due to it's decent range and good power. Nair has relatively low priority in this game, and even then I think a Peach would see that coming. So I think Peach players should look out for bair mainly, and Dr. Tornado as a mixup option since Tornado has great horizontal range but is easily punished.

The reason why I've kind of stated this to be a defensive MU until somebody decides to move in is because while Peach has access to Turnips, Dr. Mario having a cape pretty much forces Peach to use it in a manner that won't get the Turnip thrown back at her. I'm pretty sure a good Peach isn't going to use a Turnip to block Doc's pills, and will instead bait Dr. Mario into whiffing attacks. I don't know if that's just something that I've held against Peach way back in Melee, but I believe that a good Peach is going to utilize that float in order to match Doc's pills and aerial versatility.

Also, I can play you tomorrow if you like though it's going to have to be somewhat in the morning or around 11.

 

[Awesomecakes]

Dr. Mario approaches are something that I find very hard to define. Of course, there are people that will rush in mindlessly and use his Dash Attack which is terrible against a competent Peach. I'm sure that most Marios, Dr. Marios and Luigis will just attempt to move in with shield since all three want to move in closer. But with Doc, the pills will just force Peach to either avoid it or shield it. Though I do agree that a Mario or Doc attempting a grab up close will get stuffed out by Peach floating, as uair just doesn't have the priority to beat Peach's dair even though Doc's uair starts faster.

A Dr. Mario approaching from the air would usually use bair due to it's decent range and good power. Nair has relatively low priority in this game, and even then I think a Peach would see that coming. So I think Peach players should look out for bair mainly, and Dr. Tornado as a mixup option since Tornado has great horizontal range but is easily punished.

The reason why I've kind of stated this to be a defensive MU until somebody decides to move in is because while Peach has access to Turnips, Dr. Mario having a cape pretty much forces Peach to use it in a manner that won't get the Turnip thrown back at her. I'm pretty sure a good Peach isn't going to use a Turnip to block Doc's pills, and will instead bait Dr. Mario into whiffing attacks. I don't know if that's just something that I've held against Peach way back in Melee, but I believe that a good Peach is going to utilize that float in order to match Doc's pills and aerial versatility.

Also, I can play you tomorrow if you like though it's going to have to be somewhat in the morning or around 11.

OK, we're probably in different time zones, cause its already 11:30 where I live. Just tell me when you're ready, and we can figure this matchup out <3

 

[Kisatamura]

@ Awesomecakes Right now should be fine since it's 9:40

 

[Awesomecakes]

Gotcha, i'll add you now. and I'll host

 

[Kisatamura]

Great games, @ Awesomecakes even though I got mollywhopped in the first set of matches ;_;

I knew there was a reason why I said that Peach had a good set of aerial attacks. Dair can be real tough to challenge up close since the only option we kind of have is OOS UpB (And I kinda screwed that up in the match repeatedly), and it covers the edge really well. I forgot to save the matches, but Peach's dair can set up her fair. As I said before, a good Peach is going to use the float to kite Doc's attacks: That happened several times in the set of matches with Awesomecakes.

USmash is probably going to be very important in this matchup since it'll stop Peach's aerial approaches, alongside pills so that Peach will need to approach on the ground. Bair is also fantastic though you'll need to make it hit. For right now, I'm pretty sure it should be even instead of slightly in Doc's favor due to the fact that Dr. Mario will have trouble up close with an aerial Peach unless he can get an UpB, which is really the only option he has (And that can be somewhat avoided with Peach's float). Doc may be better off playing this defensively so that he won't have Peach harassing him from above.

 

[Awesomecakes]

GGs @ Kisatamura ! Definitely picked up some cool Doc tech from these matches.

Aight, so my approach to the matchup is aggression. Gotta stay at a range where you can punish those pills, and harass the hell out of Doc. Dair does a good job of beating out most of Doc's regular moves, and comboes really well. Dair >Fair will usually get em offstage for an edgeguard or gets them to the ledge. Doc's moves are really close range so its hard to space them so they won't get punished, Nair will more often than not get grabbed, but Bair works reasonably well.

Tornado is a good move to interrupt that pressure, but it is punishable. What Kisatmura was doing was rising tornado and covering it with UpB, but I can upsmash if you go a little to high, and punish the down b after the landing, also Fsmash if you do tornado from too far away. Tornado beats or trades with Nair, so Nair heavy peachs might have a tough time? But landing with tornado is tricky since up air and toad beat it, also you can shield if you're on the ground.

UpB out of Shield is a good way of interrupting shield pressure, this can be baited out though so you can't just throw it out everytime a peach tries to Dair you.

Edgeguarding was a little harder than I thought it would be, its not free. Again, this should be done aggressively. You can punish the end of the tornado as well as the pills that will be send out to cover the recovery. Also Toad edgeguard does totally work.

I don't think its in Doc's favor, if peach knows how to pressure.

 

[Kisatamura]

I can see it going in Peach's favor, though we've counted Mario's matchup as even due to the fact that it mainly just relies on whoever can keep pressure. Both Peach and Doc have great momentum games, though I will agree it'll be harder for Doc than it is for Peach to regain momentum. I don't think Peach counters Doc too hard, but I'm pretty sure Mario should have the same hard time as Doc upclose under pressure.

 

[Awesomecakes]

That makes sense. A lot of this game seems to be about keeping pressure and momentum.

I think mario would have a harder time than Doc, since he doesn't have tornado. He wouldn't be able to interrupt peach as much and has a harder more predictable recovery. The only thing mario has going for him over doc is that he can spike.

Oh another approach to peach doc, is for peach to space from further away, making slower advances, which pushes him towards the edge where he'll need to approach from. I tried it a little bit with some success, and could foxtrot away and back in to punish Nair, and Dair to punish dash attacks and grabs, but I found it less effective since punishes were lighter and gave you more of a chance to regroup. It also put peach in shield more as it gives you a chance to use pills.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Her ground game is bad, she's slow,her moves have less start up than Docs,other than jab she has no decent pokes. Playing defensive is something she struggles with and how do we play Doc? Turnip combo's are situational and her taking a turnip out takes longer than before, you should be able to punish her with DA at least.

Example of her struggling against our defensive options: our U-Smash beats anything she has to offer in the air, our bair comes out fast and hard to punish due to her speed. Worst thing a Peach can see is our backs towards her, if she comes from the air we catch her with U-Smash while the hatch is closing, if she comes at us we can bair her with good spacing we can avoid punish. She got good combo's out of throws but we can dish out more damage from consistent down throw follw ups and sweetspot bairs that are surprisingly easy to land.

Off stage can be avoided not all players are on point with their gimps the chunk of the battle will be on ground something Doc dominates on. In my first post in this MU i didn't give my full score so here it is 55:45 my reasoning is a combination of my last post and this.

Her ground game is no where near bad. And playing defensive is not something she struggles with. That is actually one of her strengths. A high level Peach is not gonna be in the air all day with typical approaches so you can just hit her for free and have you thinking that is the answer to everything. Also her Dtilt is a really good poke.

I think you should do a lil more research and actually play a high level Peach before saying things like this. Don't judge a book b it's cover. With that said, I'll give my input on this later. Just skim through here since I was called in here. Practicing for apex on my stream.

 

[warionumbah2]

Her ground game is no where near bad

Ok take that back. Should've said its not as good as Docs.

A high level Peach is not gonna be in the air all day with typical approaches so you can just hit her for free and have you thinking that is the answer to everything.

I never said she was i said that IF she come at us from the air ....and so on. Its just an example and pointing out the advantages Doc has which is stopping aerial assaults with U-Smash.

Also her Dtilt is a really good poke.

I stand corrected.

I think you should do a lil more research and actually play a high level Peach before saying things like this. Don't judge a book b it's cover

I don't need to research since you're willing to add input anyway.

With that said, I'll give my input on this later.

Cheers.

Just skim through here since I was called in here. Practicing for apex on my stream.

Good luck man.

 

[BloodL10N]

I would put it at 55:45

Simply because Peach has a couple more tools at her disposal for gimping and aerial recovery. The majority of her moves either out range or trade with Doc. Honestly I think its really close in regards to MU but its still in Peach's favor but a good Doc will figure out a way to win (Hopefully!).

 

[KenMeister]

I feel like it's slightly in Peach's favor as well, like around 55:45 or so. Her fair does a pretty good job putting trades in unfavorable positions for you should your bair and fair connect, Doc has serious trouble KOing Peach because his offstage game isn't very good against Peach, I've had one Peach live up to 180% with me before (and that usually isn't the case for most other matchups for me), and her turnip game is overall better than our pill-zoning game. She can simply just swat them away with a floating fair without much commitment.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Gonna jump in and say slight favor for Peach, at worst maybe 6:4 but closer to 55:45 as stated above. Scoring KOs is annoying outside of an offstage Nado but even that's hard because Peach's recovery is floaty and can generally weave around it (Plus that Up+B parasol).

While not related to Peach I think Doc's MUs are quite funny. I believe he fights lower tiered characters better than Mario does in most cases (there are some exceptions) but the higher tiers give him more trouble. Whereas Mario can fight the current meta a good deal better. Not to say Doc's unviable or anything but, it's definitely true from my experience.

 

[Kisatamura]

Essentially, 45:55 or 47:53 in Peach's favor. Basically the Peach MU is easier than it was in Melee, though it's still basically the same thing when it comes to defensive play. Peach still holds an advantage, enough to make me believe it isn't even, but it's closer to even than it was in the past.

Next discussion is Bowser.

 

[BloodL10N]

Oh wow this is a definite 55:45 IMO

I have a friend who is far superior in terms of smash capability than me who mained for a period before switching over to . He was never able to really land any of his smashes required although pills don't have anywhere near the effect that you want on Bowser. If you're playing semi-aggressive with your pills its definitely in Doc's favor, however if you're playing careless all it takes is one screw up and you're more than likely KO'd.

However someone probably has more MU experience than I do in this regard, however from my experience unless I'm playing really dumb (trying to style) Doc is going to win this match.

Edit: The Bowser forum had a similar MU discussion about Doc vs Bowser putting Doc at a severe disadvantage. I'm not sure if that's accurate or not, its not conducive to my MU experience but everyone plays differently.

Edit 2: Changed from 60:40 to 55:45

 

[KenMeister]

One thing I can say for sure, Bowser absolutely MURDERS Doc up close. His boxing game is way more superior than ours.

 

[BloodL10N]

Very true, I was just thinking that, it really depends on the mode of the two players I would say, if the Bowser is hunting you down with F-tilts you might be in trouble I believe Bowser D-tilt takes Doc out of Nado as well impeding him from coming back to the edge, but if Bowser tries to edge guard off stage its more than likely suicide for him.

 

[Drexel]

I like Dr. Mario against Bowser actually.

Bowser's a big target, which means Dr. Mario's pills annoy the hell out of him, which in turn means you can follow them up really well if they come from a B Reverse for approach. Plus since I am a very fast player by trait, I can outspeed Bowser and take advantage of my higher mobility. Plus, Doc has surprisingly good edgeguarding skills against Bowser. If he tries to U Special to the edge, you can edge-cancel the cape to drop in front of the edge and get a free KO. I say 55:45 though since posts above say what I was going to say about Bowser, his close combat game is respectable and he can space out Doc in turn.

 

[BugCatcherWill]

I have the biggest problem with Bowser mains playing as Doc. His F-tilt outranges nearly all of Doc's moves and once Bowser gets in Rage Mode, one read and it's game over. However, due to Bowser's weight, he can be easily combo'd if you can get a grab in. But that means getting in close to Bowser which usually spells disaster for me. But try to keep your distance and Bowser will just use his Fire Breath. I end up having to play super-defensively, using pills almost exclusively and hope I can get a grab when the Bowser panics and tries to rush me. Then comes the uphill battle of KOing Bowser before his rage completely destroys Doc.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Doc vs Bowser is definitely in Doc's favor imo. D-air/Tornado edgeguard and Super Sheet are really devastating to Bowser's recovery, while Bowser's punishes on Doc's recovery are overall much less consistent, and Bowser has a much harder time abusing Doc in neutral than he would like due to Pills limiting his mobility, on top of Doc getting the benefit of easy juggles in this matchup.

Probably a 55/45 simply because Doc has to play really respectfully against Bowser's ground game (who doesn't?). But Doc's punishes outclass Bowser's significantly, and Bowser can't really abuse Doc's weaknesses as hard as he would like overall.

 

[KenMeister]

Doc vs Bowser is definitely in Doc's favor imo. D-air/Tornado edgeguard and Super Sheet are really devastating to Bowser's recovery, while Bowser's punishes on Doc's recovery are overall much less consistent, and Bowser has a much harder time abusing Doc in neutral than he would like due to Pills limiting his mobility, on top of Doc getting the benefit of easy juggles in this matchup.

Probably a 55/45 simply because Doc has to play really respectfully against Bowser's ground game (who doesn't?). But Doc's punishes outclass Bowser's significantly, and Bowser can't really abuse Doc's weaknesses as hard as he would like overall.

I always thought it was the other way around, with me believing Doc suffers against Bowser and Ganon, while doing well against D3, DK and Charizard. What is it about Doc's punishes that are more threatening than Boozer's? I ask because Boozer's boxing game and spacing in general is significantly better than Doc's, and like Ganon, has a better midrange game (though not as good as Ganon's). I could use some tips as I have a friend who actually plays a really good Bowser and I get walled out pretty easily, making it hard for me to get in on him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I always thought it was the other way around, with me believing Doc suffers against Bowser and Ganon, while doing well against D3, DK and Charizard. What is it about Doc's punishes that are more threatening than Boozer's? I ask because Boozer's boxing game and spacing in general is significantly better than Doc's, and like Ganon, has a better midrange game (though not as good as Ganon's). I could use some tips as I have a friend who actually plays a really good Bowser and I get walled out pretty easily, making it hard for me to get in on him.

Bowser unlike say Ganon doesn't have as clean of ways to cover options while juggling or edgeguarding. I would say as a whole he has to read Doc harder than the other way around to make really good punishes. I feel like even though Doc does still struggle with being zoned out against Bowser, the extent to which he gets punished is not quite as much in comparison, so the times against Bowser where say he keeps me out with Jab/tilts I don't feel as likely to lose my stock ridiculously early as long as I just watch out for certain things/situations. When edgeguarding, Bowser's main tool is F-air, which does cover a wide area but isn't fast or lingering enough to trap an airdodge like Ganon N-air/U-air. Similarly when juggling, Bowser's aerials don't cover quite as many options as Ganon's, and his U-air is pretty slow, meaning most of the time when you're straight above Bowser it's hard for him to hit you. I feel as a result Doc doesn't suffer quite as much in the negative state in this matchup when he manages B reverse pills in juggle situations and careful Tornado and airdodge mixups offstage when recovering.

In contrast when Bowser is offstage, Doc is able to cover a lot of his options with D-air/Tornado/Cape, all of which in some way can KO Bowser pretty easily when they connect. Doc also can put a lot of pressure on Bowser with his U-tilt D-throw U-air and B-air combos due to Bowser's size and poor landing options, which by itself gets Bowser juggled to the 80-100% range a lot more easily than he would prefer, which is a range where he is susceptible to being kept offstage and edgeguarded.

Bowser probably slightly outperforms Doc in neutral and will likely put Doc in the negative state slightly more often, but as I said earlier I think the risk/reward favors Doc by a greater margin when it comes to capitalizing meaning whenever Bowser makes mistakes (such as being baited outside of Jab range or conditioned to shield against fullhop aerial/projectile pressure and then later grabbed), it's just really awful for him.

That's my experience personally, as a Ganon main I find the Bowser matchup a lot more iffy and I feel more vulnerable to getting outplayed heavily due to Bowser's hard punishes on Ganon's landing options being more applicable while as Doc I feel I can usually avoid getting punished by his stronger moves with better consistency while still having outrageously good punishes on Bowser.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If we're factoring in Custom moves I am adamant on that MU number either staying the same or being even more favorable with Doc as he gets access to tools that directly let him piss all over certain attributes of the neutral (in particular, SH Breezy Sheet lets him blow away anyone throwing out hitboxes) and Fast Capsule is great vs. most anyone in the cast. Soaring Tornado or Doc Tornado are both good in this MU so I'll leverage that down to preference.

With customs on Bowser does get Koopa Klaw which lets him escape a lot better from having to land in bad spots, thankfully Doc has Fast Capsules as well and Bowser's kind of a big target. He also has to be careful about WHERE he goes with the Koopa Klaw because if it's anywhere offstage and he burns too much of his jumps, Doc can gimp him fairly good with his tools at hand as well. None of Bowser's other customs besides his Side-B ones are really that good and won't do much in this MU IMO.

 

[Kisatamura]

To be fair, I was sorta doing these MUs with the fact that customs were not going to be legal. I would do these over again since customs are a thing now, so I'll be sure to incorporate that the next time I get really active and do these posts.

With Bowser, most of the MU dynamics have already been stated. I do agree that Bowser will outrange us in neutral, though Ftilt and Dtilt are punishable on block. Jab is free, however so respect that.

 

[HeroMystic]

If you start doing customs MUs expect me to much more active for him because he'll definitely be my serious secondary with how solid he gets with customs. Customs becoming legal also makes me glad I put the Mario MU threads on hold.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I gladly welcome you to the Customs Doc experience!

(It's truly a large improvement)

 

[BugCatcherWill]

I gladly welcome you to the Customs Doc experience!

(It's truly a large improvement)

Actually, I kinda prefer vanilla Doc over customs.

But I guess that's just me...

 

[Macchiato]

I'd say we win due to speed. we also have a projectile which can bother him and can kill him reasonably low.
55-45 Doc

With customs we recover better with soaring tournado. Get even more annoying pills, and strong OOS options, and an amazing gimping tool. He does get the slash claw which help him escape pressure
65-35 Doc

 

[Kisatamura]

While I wanted to do a write up on Bowser and also play a couple matches against somebody on the Bowser board, I think that restarting from the Mario MU with customs is a good idea. For right now, I'll consider the Bowser MU 60:40 in 's favor. While Bowser has a neutral presence, he's either gonna have to commit to moves like Ftilt for poking which are unsafe. Doc can throw pills and has more combos than Bowser. Bowser's SideB customs should make the MU less in Doc's favor: they give Bowser a quick way to close the gap.

Alongside starting from the beginning with customs, I'd also like to change my MU score for vs to be 40:60 in her favor. I think the current one (45:55) is a tad bit even. Luigi should still be the same, though we'll see depending on his customs. As a side note, when we get past Bowser with customs, I'll still do the 1111 set for characters we haven't done yet.

To start, Mario shares Doc's customs, except for DownB/FLUDD. For his FLUDD, he has Scalding FLUDD, which deals damage, and the High Pressure FLUDD, which does more knockback in exchange for a longer charge time. Which Mario customs do you think change the MU to some extent?

 

[DavemanCozy]

Hello academic mains of Mario M.D., we've started discussion on how Doc handles the match up against the wily Fox.
vs

You can find the discussion here. We look forward to your recommended prescription in this Match Up.