Charizard Tactical Discussion

[Zephramrill]

Charizards downthrow doesnt kill at all. I think thats what typh is referring to. The throw does kill if nubscrubs dont DI...

I assumed ftilt tippered killed earlier than dtilt tippered...

Charizard92, not to step on your toes but I see you claim to be a char expert in lots of places, but yet you play computers, have trouble landing dtilt on said computers, and are only starting to use tilts to kill? :S

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah, well, I am kinda stranded right here (no wifi for some reason. All my friends are Noobs). So CPUs are my only option. I have a little trouble with Dtilt, and I'm trying to expand my range of methods (Charizard has a tool kit of KO moves after all). Because I haven't really used Tilts to kill a lot, I have a little trouble landing Dtilt (of course, I rarely use D anything, so that Might be the reason why).

 

[Zephramrill]

Youve never gone to a tournament --...

oh well keep working on it then

 

[Charizard92]

Youve never gone to a tournament --...

oh well keep working on it then

As I've said before, I've been to one Tournament. I barely lost to a Wolf, won against another Wolf (he suicided once or twice), and Was outright terminated by Toon Link. It was a Lose two you're out type deal.

 

[Ulevo]

As I've said before, I've been to one Tournament. I barely lost to a Wolf, won against another Wolf (he suicided once or twice), and Was outright terminated by Toon Link. It was a Lose two you're out type deal.

...

That's how all tournaments play out.

no even sure if this has been mentioned before but its something i saw ina vid over the past month and I found it really helpful:

Charz and squirtle have a very good grab-release game. You may be asking me what I'm talking about. Allow me to explain. Instead of grabbing then throwing in any given direction, you just sit there and deal damage whiule you have them in a hold and then when they break away you grab them again and repeat.

It's another great way to rack up damage, not to mention Charz has a killer grabbing ability with grabbing speed to top it all off so imaging how well it works(no vids of my success, sorry but take my word for it, i got alot of my friends frustrated with the chain grab-releases last night). anyways, as I was saying, this is pretty simple and it can make a difference when it comes to playing defensivly or playing in general. for me I found it takes a couple of grabs to get your opponent learning what to do and that is spot dodge and or dodge roll away form it. However, charz has awsome spot dodging abilities so he can grab, miss and spot dodge if you oppnent tries to counter, or spot dodge themselves, which them oyu can easily punish them by getting them in another chain grab-release.

imo, since charz can spot dodge well, you can mindgame your opponent into thinking you will grab but dont and then continue it, squirtle doesnt have that kind of capability to spot dodge and follow up as quickly as charz. but hey, i found this useful and I'm glad it helped me out alot.

imo, the ability to do this easily outweighs the fact they can spot dodge or roll to avoid, even so, if you are quick to react or can tell what they will do next, you can just counter or follow them and set yourself up for another grab-release chain.

Oh, I just want to throw this out there. Grab Release is useless against good players unless you can force a jump break or you use it against the edge of a stage for an edge guard. You're not playing Bowser, none of these follow ups are guaranteed. All it takes is a buffered side step, and your opponent is out. Half the time, your opponent has an attack faster that anything Squirtle or Charizard have in their move set to follow up with in time. I wouldn't be promoting this strategy. Throws are much better. They provide guaranteed damage, and you're less likely to mess up if you read the opponent wrong.

 

[Charizard92]

...

That's how all tournaments play out.




Oh, I just want to throw this out there. Grab Release is useless against good players unless you can force a jump break or you use it against the edge of a stage for an edge guard. You're not playing Bowser, none of these follow ups are guaranteed. All it takes is a buffered side step, and your opponent is out. Half the time, your opponent has an attack faster that anything Squirtle or Charizard have in their move set to follow up with in time. I wouldn't be promoting this strategy. Throws are much better. They provide guaranteed damage, and you're less likely to mess up if you read the opponent wrong.

Somehow I doubt it.

Anyway, half the time? Really, you are over exaggerating the opponents defense. Still, the grab release isn't the most reliable method of hurting someone. You are better off with things like flamethrower or rock Smash.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Most standard tournaments are played with a 2 round elimination Charizard. Even Marvel vs. Capcom 2 tournaments and Guilty gear tournaments are played like that.

I forgot who said this, but he said that the grab release wasn't a method he used because he said something about the unreliability of the grab release. And the damage of a grab release to jab combo isn't much better than just throwing the enemy.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, I get that.

 

[Ulevo]

Somehow I doubt it.

Anyway, half the time? Really, you are over exaggerating the opponents defense. Still, the grab release isn't the most reliable method of hurting someone. You are better off with things like flamethrower or rock Smash.

"Half the time" is a figure of speech, not an exaggeration. And it has nothing to do with defense. The bottom line is, specifically speaking with frames, you do not have enough time to punish any characters after they break from your hold (unless they're stupid) unless you're fighting Ness. They will just shield, roll, side step, jab, tilt... and there isn't anything you can do, because those actions will be faster than you can react. Throws are better anyway. They do more damage initially, and they're easier to follow up with.

 

[Steeler]

actually, squirtle's grab release animation is 1 frame shorter than all the others in the game (29 compared to 30) while all characters' ground break animations are 30 frames (excluding mother boys and DK).

the jab is 1 frame (maybe 2?) so a buffered sidestep would likely not avoid the jab.

just something i thought i'd mention.

 

[Charizard92]

"Half the time" is a figure of speech, not an exaggeration. And it has nothing to do with defense. The bottom line is, specifically speaking with frames, you do not have enough time to punish any characters after they break from your hold (unless they're stupid) unless you're fighting Ness. They will just shield, roll, side step, jab, tilt... and there isn't anything you can do, because those actions will be faster than you can react. Throws are better anyway. They do more damage initially, and they're easier to follow up with.

This is very true. Grab release should only be used as a surprise (ex if they aren't expecting it), not as a damage racker (there are limits even on Ness).

 

[Bomber7]

the grab release thing I'm really not trying to promote ot only use when you play. that would dumb. that would be predictable. But it was jst meerly something I found that really worked for me sunday in the tourny I went to. let me tell you the guys I played werent n00bs or scrubs. but yeah I still can agree that flamethrower is a good way for racking up damage. I also like to think that the more options you got, the better you can play.

 

[gantrain05]

just so u know, flamethrower is the best edgegaurd technique ever, if it doesn't gimp them, they end up with 40% on them lol, just a tip for you charizards from an old bowser main. it also puts them in an position where they have to UpB to get out of flamethrower most of the time which also leads to w/e else you want to punish with.

 

[typh]

You say they can just spotdodge when you grab release, I say I can read + punish their dodge with a d/ftilt.

You say they can roll out of a jab release, I say you can run after them and regrab.

You say they can jab out of a grab release, I say you can shield it and punish them.

learn to predict, not react.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

You say they can just spotdodge when you grab release, I say I can read + punish their dodge with a d/ftilt.

You say they can roll out of a jab release, I say you can run after them and regrab.

You say they can jab out of a grab release, I say you can shield it and punish them.

learn to predict, not react.

Adding to this, It still leaves 1/3 chance at yourself being right. Either way though, Do not chance at the grab release because that is still 66% that you could be wrong. Do not predict a situation by itself. Instead, learn how to read the enemy and how they play. Defensive players will usually try to gain space while agressive go-getters will try to counter-attack generally.

I think to effectively grab, you must learn to read your enemies, not just the current situation.

 

[typh]

that's what i meant

 

[Ulevo]

Prediction has nothing to do with it. You are at a disadvantage, frame wise, because they can react before you are able to.

As a test, go into training mode. Set the speed to 1/4 for accuracy. Have Charizard grab say ZSS, and hold the shield down. From there, attempt to buffer a jab, and tell me what comes out first.

 

[Bomber7]

all that typh said is basically it, it's how you need to react if your opponent decides they will try to avoid it. But it also take the skill of reading your opponent. If you ask me that ability comes in time with loads of gaming exp whether it be in a friendly or a real tourny match. imo the more oyu play, the better you will see situations to react and counter such as some1 trying to run or dodge to avoid a grab release. Cuz what typh said is true, thats really all you have to do to counter. its simple if you ask me.

 

[typh]

why would you jab if you predicted they would put their shield up

grab again, release again, this time they will most likely do something else

high risk, high reward

 

[Ulevo]

Um... what?

Why would you bother Grab Releasing for damage that is not guaranteed meanwhile just as damaging, probably even less so.

At low percents, Charizard has a Bthrow CG on many characters. At higher percents after that, or on characters the CG doesn't effect, Uthrow deals 11% and you can effectively juggle trap most of the cast. And the best part about this is that you do not need to be overly concerned about predicting, because if you screw up, you won't be punished for it, as nearly every character in Brawl is vulnerable during their free fall state. Especially with Charizards huge wings for Utilt and USmash. Fthrow is exactly like Bthrow, except it throws them farther, so it is good for edge guarding if you're close to the edge.

Why would you risk using anything else, particularly if almost every other option is superior? I can take any example you give me for a Grab Release set up, and come up with an infinitely better example.

 

[CoonTail]

actually, squirtle's grab release animation is 1 frame shorter than all the others in the game (29 compared to 30) while all characters' ground break animations are 30 frames (excluding mother boys and DK).

the jab is 1 frame (maybe 2?) so a buffered sidestep would likely not avoid the jab.

just something i thought i'd mention.

Haha and I think I need to mention steeler FTW lol, but wow I never thought about this even though I do this on the regular. So it is true frame-wise squirtles grab release will always allow a jab to connect as long as your timing is perfect. This find should be spread amoungst PT's way more, but anyway awesome info as usual Steeler keep it coming.

You say they can just spotdodge when you grab release, I say I can read + punish their dodge with a d/ftilt.

You say they can roll out of a jab release, I say you can run after them and regrab.

You say they can jab out of a grab release, I say you can shield it and punish them.

learn to predict, not react.

I have to agree with Typh on this one figuring I saw Dire play recently and it was the main reason his PT was so good. Serious players as I have seen dont react but are more or less in the other player's head. From the start of the match they pick up the patterns like clockwork, they begin to pick apart the other players thought process and through what typh said completely start to wreck the moral of their opp(Something im sure Typh loves to do lol) but obv a good opp wouldnt allow their moral to be wrecked by this. Overall it seems some of the best and most serious players dont react but like typh said predict......So as for what certain pokes can and cant do out of grab releases seems to be solely based on how good a player is at predicting and learning their opps patterns ASAP in a match.

Um... what?

Why would you bother Grab Releasing for damage that is not guaranteed meanwhile just as damaging, probably even less so.

At low percents, Charizard has a Bthrow CG on many characters. At higher percents after that, or on characters the CG doesn't effect, Uthrow deals 11% and you can effectively juggle trap most of the cast. And the best part about this is that you do not need to be overly concerned about predicting, because if you screw up, you won't be punished for it, as nearly every character in Brawl is vulnerable during their free fall state. Especially with Charizards huge wings for Utilt and USmash. Fthrow is exactly like Bthrow, except it throws them farther, so it is good for edge guarding if you're close to the edge.

Why would you risk using anything else, particularly if almost every other option is superior? I can take any example you give me for a Grab Release set up, and come up with an infinitely better example.

Simple its not a risk if you can predict as terrible as it sounds. No scrub player can make predicitons, in order to make a prediction you have to watch and learn your opponent. If you havent learned your opponent yet you cant make a prediction, so in short the only time you but yourself at risk is when you make predicitons you shouldnt have. Serious players make predicitons because in their minds the prediciton the make is based off reasoning they have been building while learnin their opponent. Plain and simple the only times good players make predictions is after they have seen enough of the other players patterns too. So in short if a player starts to predict you your in a bad enough situation as is because it means your playstyle and patterns have been figured out. Thats why you make predicitons because you have enough reasoning to know that it isnt dangerous because since the playstyle and patterns of your opp were picked apart. It now actually becomes the smarter option especially because prediction can cause more mistakes by the opp due to the destruction of moral that predicition can lead to.

In short only good players make predictions and predictions if made by a good player will win games.

 

[typh]

Um... what?

Why would you bother Grab Releasing for damage that is not guaranteed meanwhile just as damaging, probably even less so.

durr

they shield the first time, regrab, the second time they might spotdodge because they got frustrated which equals a free rock smash/fsmash

or they might try to DI/jump away in which case jab -> dtilt/up smash for the kill at high percents

the main reason why i use it is because it looks cool

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Ouch Typh, your epic fonts kill my eyes. DX

Anyway, it's a human mentality, I think because most of the time, they make the same mistake twice before they switch tactics, for example of the grab release, they shield, which you re-grab to another grab release, then they shield again on impulse, which you regrab again. The third time around, they beging to think 'okay, this isn't working' so they cahnge it up into a spot dodge, so that's when you change your attack pattern.

 

[Steeler]

hey i love typh

if typh is gary oak

then i am his cheerleaders

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Eh, Typh is cuter than Gary Oak. Gary has no spine in the anime, and he's so stupid later on in the series.

 

[Syrus_Draco]

**** Steeler . . .

That was some serious business.

:D

 

[typh]

im cute

 

[Charizard92]

Can we GET BACK ONTO TOPIC! Anyway, grab release, for the millionth time, is NOT a reliable method of damaging opponents. However, it does serve as a good way to **** their minds.

 

[Ulevo]

Simple its not a risk if you can predict as terrible as it sounds. No scrub player can make predicitons, in order to make a prediction you have to watch and learn your opponent. If you havent learned your opponent yet you cant make a prediction, so in short the only time you but yourself at risk is when you make predicitons you shouldnt have. Serious players make predicitons because in their minds the prediciton the make is based off reasoning they have been building while learnin their opponent. Plain and simple the only times good players make predictions is after they have seen enough of the other players patterns too. So in short if a player starts to predict you your in a bad enough situation as is because it means your playstyle and patterns have been figured out. Thats why you make predicitons because you have enough reasoning to know that it isnt dangerous because since the playstyle and patterns of your opp were picked apart. It now actually becomes the smarter option especially because prediction can cause more mistakes by the opp due to the destruction of moral that predicition can lead to.

In short only good players make predictions and predictions if made by a good player will win games.

...

It is easier, more efficient, safer, and more damaging to throw them.

I don't give a **** if you can predict. If you can predict, you'll do even more damage if you throw them and follow up appropriately.

the main reason why i use it is because it looks cool

Oh, but of course. I should have known that was the real reason, coming from a poster on a competitive community.

Play to win look cool, right?

Can we GET BACK ONTO TOPIC! Anyway, grab release, for the millionth time, is NOT a reliable method of damaging opponents. However, it does serve as a good way to **** their minds.

I suggest you start packing better mind games. The ones that win you games, preferably.

 

[typh]

if we were playing to win we wouldn't be using pokemon trainer

 

[Steeler]

if we were playing to win we wouldn't be using pokemon trainer

^ this right here

now you guys know why i'm his cheerleaders

 

[Ulevo]

if we were playing to win we wouldn't be using pokemon trainer

Just because a player plays to win does not mean he has to represent a specific high or even top tier character. Regardless of what tier placement Pokemon Trainer happens to be (and let's not forget that tier placement is subjective), this is still a competitive community, dedicated to a competitive purpose.

I play Pokemon Trainer for fun myself, but I don't let the restrictions of his tier, nor the idea that I play him for fun (and who says winning with a low/mid tier isn't fun) distract me from my goal of winning.

In either case, it was completely irrelevant. I meant to point out your flawed reasoning, and you only aided me in that respect.

 

[Kinzer]

So ya herd I broke Rawc Smhashuh?

Seriously, no?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6cut02pr-Y

 

[Elliot Gale]

The fragments don't deal any knockback; only the initial hit does. If the fragments interrupt, well, yeah.

Although it leads into a Usmash nicely on occasion.

 

[Kinzer]

...So...

I got hit by the fragments first... and then somehow I either SDIed poorly or my momentum from ASC carried me into the sweetspot... and that's simply what happened?

Anything else I should know, like when and where the hitboxes come out? Did I actually get hit by both at the same time? Do fragments have the same properties as teh sweetspot but with less damage and knockback?

 

[Syrus_Draco]

Rock Smash has several of hit boxes, and the knock back varies sometimes. You will mostly find that the knock back occurs when the opponent get's hit around the tip of the rock. Other times they'll get hit by the rock and have the debris hit them a few times. In the vid Sonic was caught in the dead center so the Charizard got the max damage part of Rock Smash instead of the knock back kind.

Not too surprising but there you have it :U

 

[Kinzer]

...Okay, because usually when I get hit by the damaging part, it sends me FLYING AWAY, but that didn't happen did it?

I assume I missed the hitbox that is suppose to send people flying, and got all of the weaker hitboxes projected onto me... okay... something to look forward too when it will matter (more like never but it was interestign when I didn't know it)

One more question... how do you people already know this before I came in here, was there another video/person who got everybody else aware of it before I did?

 

[Elliot Gale]

Well, we do main the character. It's only natural that we know the move is... odd.

 

[Syrus_Draco]

The whole attack itself is damaging, just a matter of if you get hit by the sweet spot or not to give the knock back. These "Weaker hit boxes" gave Sonic the full 45%~ amount of damage so if you're looking to rack of damage that'll be more effective than the 13% with knock back hit. It's all pending on how you land the Rock Smash really.

 

[Kinzer]

Well you will only know stuff that has already been found... what I was asking was who brought it up first... C'mon now, I'm not that ignorant. -_-