Charizard Smash 4 Combos (WIP, updated 1.10)

[charizardbro]

Hello and welcome!

Frame Trap Rating System

Spoiler

Combo - We all know what this is. Combos are inescapable followups. For the purposes of this OP, combo will mean 'combo with no DI' since training mode is all I have to work with right now. I'd love to add percentages that include DI though.

Great - Top tier escape options and frame data are the only great ways to escape (Ex. ZSS' Flip Kick, frame 3 aerials). These frame traps have a pretty wide percent range where they are effective. May be characterized by a "50/50."

Good - Not too difficult to escape, you may get a little more mileage out of it in laggy envoirnments. May be characterized by being able to bait out a punishable option from your opponent. Percent ranges may be less lenient. Easier to interrupt.

Decent - These frame traps have niche uses. They must have at least 2 of the following three properties: they are only useful at certain parts of the stage, narrow percentage ranges, and with very specific DI.

Donkey Kong

Spoiler

Rating | String | Percents | Notes
Combo | Sour SH Nair -> Jabs | 40% - 89% | DK starts suffering hard knockback at from Nair 60%. Land the nair with Charizard's head and neck inside of DK's character model for the combo to register at the outsides of the percent range. Move towards DK throughout Nair too. DI away?
Combo | Sour Reverse SH Nair -> Tipper Ftilt | 76% - 101% | Use upward angled Ftilt. Lower couple of percent seem to sourspot Ftilt occasionally. Move towards DK throughout Nair . Percents for DI away?
Combo | Utilt -> Utilt | 19% - 41% | Just use Utilt twice, one right after another. If they air dodge between around 10% and 18%, they also get punished on landing. Last few percent on the upper range may be effected by DI.
Combo | Utilt -> Usmash | 13% - 30% | Very similar to Utilt -> Utilt except sometimes the Usmash won't connect all of the hits or any of the hits if they aren't right above you at the upper end of the percent range (about 26%-30%). Percents for DI away?
Combo | Utilt -> Uair | 49% - 66% | Buffer the Uair out of jump squat for the very lower end of the range. Buffer the Uair once your are already in the air for the very upper end. You can still frame trap with it outside of the range but it won't be a combo.
Combo | Dair -> Utilt | 67% - 85% | You can frame trap with other stuff way earlier and later but the combo count won't register. Land the Dair as while you are as close to the ground as possible to pull this off. Can we frame cancel/lag synch this?
Combo | Dair -> Fly | 83% - 115% | You can also frame trap with Uair but no combo unfortunately . This will kill at the higher percent range (no DI). This will be tricky to land against a human player since they will DI left or right to avoid a simple fly followup but it's certainly possible. Last hit lands for the entire range.
Combo | Dair -> Uair | 91% - 120% | This will kill, especially if you have rage. It outdoes Dair -> Fly because it is easier to chase DI with. Fast fall Dair once you enter hitlag.
Combo | Uair -> Usmash | 14% - 36% | Use Uair on a grounded DK then followup with usmash. It can work as early as 14% but the timing is really hard. Fastfall it once you enter hitlag. Practice it at half speed. I can consistently get it to work starting at 25%.
Combo | Uair -> Uair | 53% - 67% | Very similar to Uair Usmash except you have to use Uair a second time. Make sure you don't accidentally JC Usmash instead.
Combo | Dthrow -> Uair | 1% - 130%* | Dash forward a little first for the upper percent range. True range is likely a little wider if you buffer Uair out of jump squat for the lower range. Red lightning starts at 112%, This can kill. DI away range?
Combo | Dthrow -> Fair | 0% - 145% | Double jump out of Dthrow and position yourself below and to the side of DK for it to connect at higher percents. Upper range is likely far lower with human DI. What is it?
Combo | Dthrow -> Usmash | 0% - 11% | Jump cancel Usmash to pull this off. The third hit won't register as a combo starting at 11%. All hits connect up until 29% but only the first 2 register as a combo.
Combo | Dthrow -> Nair | 0% - 110% | You can combo with the sweet spot starting at around 90%.
Combo | Bthrow -> Fair | 0% - 59% | Upper end of things uses the very edge of the claw hitbox. Timing is pretty strict above 55.
Combo | Uthrow -> Flare Blitz | 40% - 49% | You have to double jump first. I suspect Dragon Rush and possibly Blast Burn work too.
Combo | Uthrow -> Fair | 0-59% | You have to double jump first for the upper end of the range. You will land with lag if you don't double jump but that's what has to be done for the lower percents.
Great Frame Trap | Jab 2 -> Grab | 60%* - 110%* | No dash grab here unless they are on the very outside of your jab range. Be wary of quick aerials from heavies at higher percents not in this range I am not sure how well this works when heavies DI down and jab or DI up and use a quick aerial.
Great Frame Trap | Jab 2 -> Fly | 100%* - 170* | Being close to your opponent for the jabs will help a lot if they try to airdodge Fly. You should super armor through most of the quick aerials heavies can throw out. Fly will not connect if they are on the very outside of your jab range. How does this change with human DI? How much easier is this to air dodge as percents increase?
Great Frame Trap | Sour SH reverse Nair -> B reverse Flamethrower | 60%-120% | This will get at least a couple hits. It covers every option except tech away. It's best used toward the middle of the range. It's very safe on heavies. Can you jump out of it?
Good Frame Trap | Sour SH Nair -> Jabs | 0%* - 40% | Heavies with quick jabs may have a decent number of frames where they can jab you out of this at low percent. Go for the frame trap when you can outrange their jabs with your own. I would like to know how well this works when heavies DI down and shield though.
??? Frame Trap | Dthrow -> Nair -> Regrab | 0% - 30%* | Heavies with fast Nairs may be able to get out. How good is this frame trap against heavies? Nair doesn't give them that much hitstun.
??? Frame Trap | Reverse SH sour Nair -> Sweet Bair | 93% - 106% | This one is a little tricky. It's like the Nair to Ftilt combo except you have to do a SH Bair immediately out of jump squat. This means you have to really time it rather than mash Ftilt. Otherwise, they're very similar. Both percent limits will be lower with DI away. You can also catch people as they miss a tech with this at percents below 93% (no DI).

Captain Falcon

Spoiler

Rating | String | Percents | Notes
Combo | Sour SH Nair -> Jabs | 36% - 88% | Hard knockback from Nair starts at 54%.
Combo | Sour Reverse SH Nair -> Tipper Ftilt | 57% - 97% | None
Combo | Utilt -> Utilt | 17% - 44% | None
Combo | Utilt -> Usmash | 11% - 35% | They start to fall out of Usmash at 30%. It should consistently combo between 11% and 30% though.
Combo | Utilt -> Uair | 45% - 65% | None
Combo | Dair -> Utilt | 56% - 75% | None
Combo | Dair -> Fly | 73% - 103% | None
Combo | Dair -> Uair | 88% - 117% | None
Combo | Uair -> Uair | 44% - 64% | None
Combo | Uair -> Usmash | 20% - 36% | Starts to fall out after 32%
Combo | Dthrow -> Uair | 0% - 121% | None
Combo | Dthrow -> Fair | 0% - 147% | None
Combo | Dthrow -> Nair | 0% - 110% | None
Combo | Bthrow -> Fair | 6% - 52% | None
Combo | Uthrow -> Flare Blitz | 35% - 45% | None
Combo | Uthrow -> Fair | 0% - 43% | None
Great Frame Trap | Jab 2 -> Grab | 100%-180% | Falcon gets flung clear of Zard's head starting at 180%. It'll still frame trap decently but it will be easier to jump out of. Falcon sometimes gets knocked too horizontally for standing grab to work though. This seems to only happen when Falcon is really close to Zard when you begin the jab combo.
Great Frame Trap | Jab 2 -> Fly | 140% - 180% | Falcon's feet hit the ground when fly connects at lower percents. It won't frame trap as well above and below this; this is the optimal percent range to use it. If the percents get higher, Falcon will suffer too much horizontal knockback for this to work.
Great Frame Trap | Sour SH reverse Nair -> B reverse Flamethrower | 54% - 85% | Only a few hits of Flamethrower connect on the upper side of the percent range. You are better off tech chasing usually. DI away will make both ranges lower.

Sonic

Spoiler

Rating | String | Percents | Notes
Combo | Sour SH Nair -> Jabs | 30% - 77% | Hard knockback from Nair starts at 51%.
Combo | Sour Reverse SH Nair -> Tipper Ftilt | 60% - 80% | None
Combo | Utilt -> Utilt | 16% - 32% | None
Combo | Utilt -> Usmash | 16% - 20% | Both hits of Usmash will land until about 25% but they can jump out of the second hit starting at 21%.
Combo | Utilt -> Uair | 42% - 51% | You have to double jump to land the Uair if you are going for this as a non-true combo at percents above 51. I'm willing to bet there are only a few frames where your opponent can input an option though. Uair might not be avoidable outside of this range.
Combo | Dair -> Utilt | 51% - 69% | None
None | Dair -> Fly | None | This no longer true combos in training mode.
Combo | Dair -> Uair | 71% - 97% | None
Combo | Uair -> Uair | 41% - 50% | Double jump to land the second Uair at percents above the range. It will not be a true combo though. Much like Utilt to Uair, I think there is probably a bit of leeway on percents below the range because your opponent only has a few frames to escape. It's all about frame canceling this well though.
Combo | Uair -> Usmash | 13% - 24% | Opponent can jump out after 24%. Both hits will land if the opponent does not jump until 27%. Frame canceling is crucial for the lower 7ish percent.
Combo | Dthrow -> Uair | 0% - 97% | None
Combo | Dthrow -> Fair | 0% - 115% | None
Combo | Dthrow -> Nair | 0% - 79% | None
None | Bthrow -> Fair | None | This no longer works.
Combo | Uthrow -> Flare Blitz | 30% - 38% | None
Combo | Uthrow -> Fair | 0% - 29% | Use your double jump for the entire percent range.
Great Frame Trap | Jab 2 -> Grab | 90%-130% | Sonics with MU knowledge should get out of this most of the time by mashing up B. I'm not sure if Fly will catch them but it leaves them in an unfavorable position either way. No dash grab needed if you're close enough. You can also grab Sonic before his feet touch the ground.
Great Frame Trap | Jab 2 -> Fly | 90% - 120% | Sonic receives fairly vertical knockback but due to his small hurtbox size, Fly will whiff if he is on the outside of your jab range.
Great Frame Trap | Sour SH reverse Nair -> B reverse Flamethrower | 51% - 84% | None

I intend to add numbers and notes for Sheik and Pikachu in the future if there is interest in having such a combo list. With any luck, I'll also have numbers for DI. I chose these characters for their proximity to other good characters on the weight chart, past success in tournament play, and character hurtbox sizes relative to their neighbors on the weight chart. Feel free to suggest others though.

I will be rating any notable frame traps. Videos appreciated for new ones. Preferably tournament games.

I also want to include any notes for trying to land the combo/frame trap against characters which, of course, may change based on the opponent's weight and hurtbox size. If there is a note of "None" you should look at the next heaviest (ex. for Falcon, look at DK unless otherwise indicated) character for advice on landing the combo.

Any and all specific questions I have for you guys will be in bold at the end of the notes section! Eyeballed or otherwise questionable percentages for frame traps and combos are marked with an asterisk! Thanks.

 

[charizardbro]

Reserved just in case.

 

[Tonetta]

I was messing about with some samus tech and was using charlie as the test dummy, but I think I found something for you guys as well that is very similar to what I was working on. Basically, if you were to go for a ledge trump and barely missed it and they queue'd a roll onto the stage, you can ledge drop backwards and queue up a jump into side b for what seems like a guaranteed hit on most of the cast. I don't play charizard so I'm not 100% sure if this is a true frame trap or not but I figured you guys would like to know about it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If they have time to roll on stage they will have time to shield I reckon. Especially the higher tier characters.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Some other combos that I've gotten to work are:

Jab 2 --> Jab

Jab 3 --> Fair

Jab 3 --> Uair

Jab 3 --> Usmash

Utilt --> Nair

this combo can be followed up with a plentora of options at low %'s

Utilt --> Utilt x? --> Nair


His Bread and butter Nair combos, that work with and without landing the sweetspot

Nair --> Ftilt

Nair --> Dtilt

Combos that may or may not work with the sweetspot (haven't tested )

Nair --> Jab

Nair --> Grab

Nair --> Usmash

Combos that require the sourspot

SH Sourspot Nair --> Fsmash

SH Sourspot Nair --> Flare Blitz (works if your enemy tends to hit the ground without teching)

- - - - -

Not going to list throw combos since they've been mentioned in other threads

- - - - -

Some Areal stuff

Fair --> Fair

Fair --> Backwards Nair (this actually works. Not sure of the %'s, but it does)



This might work now that I think about it

Dair (Stage Bounce) --> Usmash or Uair?

- - - - - -

I saw a video of a charizard player getting true combo follow ups off of Uair into the ground. I haven't tested these myself, but some other zard mains might know

 

[charizardbro]

I was messing about with some samus tech and was using charlie as the test dummy, but I think I found something for you guys as well that is very similar to what I was working on. Basically, if you were to go for a ledge trump and barely missed it and they queue'd a roll onto the stage, you can ledge drop backwards and queue up a jump into side b for what seems like a guaranteed hit on most of the cast. I don't play charizard so I'm not 100% sure if this is a true frame trap or not but I figured you guys would like to know about it.

That sounds like it might actually be a pretty good frame trap. I would need a human test dummy for it though. Have you ever personally pulled that off or seen someone do it? It's a great idea either way. A better option would be to drop off the ledge and use Flamethrower as you get back on stage if they can shield the Flare Blitz after all.

Some other combos that I've gotten to work are:

Jab 2 --> Jab

Jab 3 --> Fair

Jab 3 --> Uair

Jab 3 --> Usmash

Utilt --> Nair

this combo can be followed up with a plentora of options at low %'s

Utilt --> Utilt x? --> Nair


His Bread and butter Nair combos, that work with and without landing the sweetspot

Nair --> Ftilt

Nair --> Dtilt

Combos that may or may not work with the sweetspot (haven't tested )

Nair --> Jab

Nair --> Grab

Nair --> Usmash

Combos that require the sourspot

SH Sourspot Nair --> Fsmash

SH Sourspot Nair --> Flare Blitz (works if your enemy tends to hit the ground without teching)

- - - - -

Not going to list throw combos since they've been mentioned in other threads

- - - - -

Some Areal stuff

Fair --> Fair

Fair --> Backwards Nair (this actually works. Not sure of the %'s, but it does)



This might work now that I think about it

Dair (Stage Bounce) --> Usmash or Uair?

- - - - - -

I saw a video of a charizard player getting true combo follow ups off of Uair into the ground. I haven't tested these myself, but some other zard mains might know

First off I'd like to say thanks! That's a ton of stuff.

Did you toggle spoiler for DK though? I have some of those down already. Maybe you missed 'em idk.

Also keep in mind that I'm a one man lab at the moment so I have a ton of questions for you that I can't really test on my own.

I'm also struggling to pull off some of them so I'll need either more help doing them or percent ranges from you.

Jab 2 -> Jabs sems to work best starting at around 90 since the CPU's feet won't touch the ground between jab 2 and the next new jab combo (you can't shield it). I'm not sure if it can be DI'd down though. When has it worked best for you? It's also worth noting that you're better going for a kill from Jab 2 -> Dthrow -> Uair starting at 105% because that's when the red lightening starts. This is for heavies though, of course.

Jab 3 -> SH/FH Fair seems like a pretty good frame trap until about 25% on a CPU without DI. You need to run forward a little for higher percents and I don't think the frame trap would be tight enough. Does that sound about right? I've honestly never gotten follow-ups out of Jab 3 to work against human players so I don't really know what I'm looking for here. I'm not going to make any percent estimates for Jab 3 -> Usmash or Jab 3 -> Uair for similar reasons.

Utilt -> Nair combos though. 43%-59% on DK. You really have to watch for DI at higher percents though. You can start doing it a couple percent before Utilt -> Uair and it's easier to perform. You also don't have to stale your Uair. I like this one. It's not a true combo any lower than that for DK though.

Utilt -> Utilt -> Nair won't combo for me. Ive also never used it against someone so I'll need to know what I'm looking for to make it work (as a frame trap or combo) and a percent range if possible before I can add it.

Sweet/Sour Nair -> Ftilt and Sweet/Sour Nair -> Dtilt only combo at low percent when Nair trips so I didn't add them. Looking back at it, Nair -> Dtilt actually combos DK from 72%-89% but you have to fastfall the Nair. I don't think it would work at all if DK DIs away and fastfalling the Nair is kind of impractical but its a combo. I was unable to get it with Ftilt. Those are hard inputs with Ftilt on the 3DS but from what I gather it's too slow to true combo.

Nair -> Grab looks like a really good frametrap for heavies. I'll make the percent range 0% - whenever they receive hard knockdown for now. Got any ideas for a percent range?

Nair -> Usmash. I never thought of this one. It strikes me as something that should true combo on the CPU because Usmash is frame 6 and Jab is frame 4 but I can't do it. Got advice and (ideally) a percent range?

Nair -> Fsmash won't combo for me and I'm not very familiar with it as a frame trap. I need a person to test it on or more input from you about when it works.

I'm probably not going to list Nair -> Flare Blitz just because the knockdown isn't meteor. I might list it as decent in the future though.

Yea I already covered almost all throw combos. I'm still working on Dthrow->Bakr though.

I don't have nearly enough experience landing Fair -> Fair to rate it. I also don't know percentages. I'll need a bit of help with that one at some point before I add it.

If I need the reverse fair hitbox for Fair -> reverse Nair I can't test it. I don't know how to consistently get that hitbox to land yet.

Dair -> Usmash is genius. Dair -> Uair wont combo on a grounded opponent but it's included in the Dair->Fly note. Dair -> Utilt is already there though.

Edit: Dair -> Uair will work but you gotta get really good frame canceling.

Uair on a grounded opponent to more follow-ups is great for combos on heavies though. I'm gonna test that one later.

I'll update the OP when I get a chance.

 

[Steeler]

Dragon Rush at low percents is a strong frame trap, if you jab, air dodge into ground will get caught by the rest of jab combo or something else if you have godly reaction, most any aerial will get outranged and/or outsped and stuffed by jab. Opponents need to jump out of this sometimes. If they DI toward you, they could throw out a quick aerial to hit you. This is when you shield instead. I reckon there are specific characters or percents where it's a true combo or harder to jump out of. Dedede, for instance, has a terrible air jump and probably couldn't get out of the way.

As for when characters receive hard knockdown from nair, I know Yoshi is 56% in training mode, if that helps you guesswork for other characters around his weight.

I can confirm nair -> usmash can true combo, I did it on some random character (Lucario?) at around 20%, do a full hop fast fall nair and hit with the tail sourspot.

 

[Opana]

I've gotten SHFF Nair(Within the auto cancel window) to count as a true combo without di in training, may be worth a bit of testing. Also got SHFF Uair into SH Flare Blitz to count as a true combo in training, if it really true combos it could probably kill close to the blastline like at Castle Siege or Smashville, although if you mess up you die lol.

 

[Steeler]

I've gotten SHFF Nair(Within the auto cancel window) to count as a true combo without di in training, may be worth a bit of testing. Also got SHFF Uair into SH Flare Blitz to count as a true combo in training, if it really true combos it could probably kill close to the blastline like at Castle Siege or Smashville, although if you mess up you die lol.

You mean SHFF nair into nair?

Uair into Dragon Rush would be cool as f*ck.

Nair -> dash attack can true combo, or catch missed techs.

 

[charizardbro]

Dragon Rush at low percents is a strong frame trap, if you jab, air dodge into ground will get caught by the rest of jab combo or something else if you have godly reaction, most any aerial will get outranged and/or outsped and stuffed by jab. Opponents need to jump out of this sometimes. If they DI toward you, they could throw out a quick aerial to hit you. This is when you shield instead. I reckon there are specific characters or percents where it's a true combo or harder to jump out of. Dedede, for instance, has a terrible air jump and probably couldn't get out of the way.

As for when characters receive hard knockdown from nair, I know Yoshi is 56% in training mode, if that helps you guesswork for other characters around his weight.

I can confirm nair -> usmash can true combo, I did it on some random character (Lucario?) at around 20%, do a full hop fast fall nair and hit with the tail sourspot.

Dragon Rush and what is a good frame trap? Jab 2?

That does help my guesswork though, thanks.

Nair -> Usmash might not work on heavies then. Care to try it with DK?

Nair -> Dattack is outclassed by Nair -> Jab imo but I'm sure it has its uses when people DI away. Thanks.

I've gotten SHFF Nair(Within the auto cancel window) to count as a true combo without di in training, may be worth a bit of testing. Also got SHFF Uair into SH Flare Blitz to count as a true combo in training, if it really true combos it could probably kill close to the blastline like at Castle Siege or Smashville, although if you mess up you die lol.

SHFF Nair -> ?. I'm not sure what that first combo was supposed to be. I'm still working on combos using Uair against a grounded opponent. I'll try Flare Blitz though. Thanks.

 

[Opana]

Meant into Flare Blitz lol, turns out that FBlitz counts as 2 hits though so neither are true. However, both can frame trap I believe.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Utilt -> Utilt -> Nair won't combo for me. Ive also never used it against someone so I'll need to know what I'm looking for to make it work (as a frame trap or combo) and a percent range if possible before I can add it.

Utilt --> Utilt --> Nair starts working at roughly ~10% against a grounded DK.

Utilt --> Nair is a low% juggle string that works best against airborne opponents. It's easily set up out of a Dthrow.

Both combos allow you to continue juggling your opponent if you respond correctly.

Nair -> Fsmash won't combo for me and I'm not very familiar with it as a frame trap. I need a person to test it on or more input from you about when it works.

Nair --> Fsmash is one of those combos which (theoretically) should never work, but does if you can catch your opponent off guard with it. There are two ways to land this depending on %.

I'll be using DK as an example for this.

[Low %: 0%-24%]

Land the Sweetspot of Nair. This will pop DK away at the perfect distance to follow up with an Fsmash. This is a Frame Trap. Due to the range, if DK goes for an agressive option he will likely eat an Fsmash for Free. The invincibility, priority, and range make this a surprisingly effective combo

[Mid Low %: 25%-59%]

Land the sourspot of nair. At the lower %'s (25%-54% rough estimate), this does pop DK away fairly close to you, and he can theortetically inturrupt the combo with a jab or dtilt. Starting at 55% up until around 59%, Nair begins knocking DK away at that perfect distance again, if he goes for an aggressive option he's likely to take the fsmash for free.

[Mid% 60%-90% (91%)]

This is where the move stops being a frame trap, and starts being a missed tech punish. Depending on %, you will need to space your Nair closer to DK in order to land this. At the highest %'s, you will practically have to start the Nair from inside DK. If done properly, DK will hit the ground a split second before your Fsmash comes out, this gives him a small window of time to tech before the Fsmash comes out.

91% is listed as an odd % because, while it is possible to land Fsmash here, it's extremely difficult. Up Angled Ftilt seems to work well at this % however.

Starting at 92%, Dk will start being launched away, and you can no longer land this followup.

I'm probably not going to list Nair -> Flare Blitz just because the knockdown isn't meteor. I might list it as decent in the future though.

[Works Mid to Very High % - 60% ~ 190%ish)

Nair --> Flareblitz can work at low%'s, however it's risky and there are better options. It starts to shine at mid-higher %'s as Nair starts forcing tech chase situations

Here's the interesting thing about this... This may be the only way that you'll be able to land this against high level opponents who know the MU. You can condition your opponent to tech by going for the Nair --> Fsmash option. If they do not tech Fsmash will obviously land, however what if they do tech?

Tech in Place - If you time your Flare Blitz properly, you will hit them during the vulnerability frames of their tech

Tech Backwards - Flare Blitz will chase them down and hit them at the ending frames of the tech, still punishing them

Tech Forward - Flare Blitz will no longer punish this. Unfortuantely, I do not have two people to test this with, but you could (theoretically) still punish this with Fsmash . Do not DI forwards after the Nair as you normally would, instead Nair in place, if they tech roll into you, they'll find a meaty Fsmash waiting for them.

No Tech at all - If you know that your opponent doesn't like to tech after Nair, just blitz immediately after landing Nair, this will punish them.

This works until very high %'s, at least on DK. At higher %'s your opponent will be able to start jumping out of the combo, so beware.

I don't have nearly enough experience landing Fair -> Fair to rate it. I also don't know percentages. I'll need a bit of help with that one at some point before I add it.

Fair --> Backwards Nair is a juggle combo that works depending on how your opponent DI's. This can work either offstage or onstage depending on how your opponent reacts. It works best when using Fair against an airborne opponent.



Note: In my experience, all of these combos have worked against human opponents.

 

[Knucklessg1]

I've only discovered that his shorthop fair autocanels when it lands so you can shield or jab as soon as you land. It makes zards approach options twice as good because you can cover the length of fair on the stage, or a higher section of the stage with a nair.

 

[charizardbro]

Utilt --> Utilt --> Nair starts working at roughly ~10% against a grounded DK.

Utilt --> Nair is a low% juggle string that works best against airborne opponents. It's easily set up out of a Dthrow.

Both combos allow you to continue juggling your opponent if you respond correctly.

Won't true combo for me. Screw it. I'm going to stick to true combos and notable long strings that contain non-true combos. I'll add it if I can get a video though. Maybe I'm misinputting.

Nair --> Fsmash is one of those combos which (theoretically) should never work...

Can't add it m8.

Fair --> Backwards Nair is a juggle combo that works depending on how your opponent DI's. This can work either offstage or onstage depending on how your opponent reacts. It works best when using Fair against an airborne opponent.

It won't register on the combo counter. Video?

Also, Falcon added. Still updating the Dthrow combo percents after the patch though. I'll edit when that's completed.

Edit: Dthrow percents updated to reflect patch changes to Dthrow. Falcon added. Added Uair combos and Dair -> Uair.

 

[Steeler]

On some characters you can sour nair and if they miss their tech, close jab to jab lock into charged fsmash. It's kind of hard, I'll try to get a vid.

 

[charizardbro]

On some characters you can sour nair and if they miss their tech, close jab to jab lock into charged fsmash. It's kind of hard, I'll try to get a vid.

I didn't realize jab 1 could even jab lock. Sour Nair and Dair (at low percents) also work though. Dair is the easiest to land imo. Jab 1 seems to be very odd for jab locking though. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Steeler]

I didn't realize jab 1 could even jab lock. Sour Nair and Dair (at low percents) also work though. Dair is the easiest to land imo. Jab 1 seems to be very odd for jab locking though. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

I have found that to get it consistently, you need to get all up in their hurtbox and jab the instant they miss the tech. I will upload vids. It also doesn't seem to work on some characters (large hurtboxes seem to make the other jab hitboxes always take priority, Mario is also really hard for no reason)

 

[Z1GMA]

This is pretty nice. Tried out your stuff on C.Falcon.
You should add Dthrow > Flare Blitz, too.

 

[pianoasis]

Uthrow > Flare Blitz is a pretty free 30% combo versus midweights and heavies at low percents. Uthrow at low percents gives a lot of good options because of Char's vertical aerial placement to his target. This is something to look into.

 

[Steeler]

Uthrow to Flare Blitz work if they DI toward and away from you?

 

[pianoasis]

Some can dodge with good DI but for most of the heavy side of the cast it's true. I haven't fully tested it though.

 

[Jmacz]

Does Downthrow->Fly combo? I'm testing it now and it's really hard to tell. I'm testing between 90-120% and it seems to hit 3 sometimes and 2 other times so I'm not sure if it's registering or not. I use it a lot on my friend and he can't seem to get out of it at certain percents. I usually try and hit it after Dthrow->Uair stops working and before Uthrow starts killing. Some characters like Luigi seem to always be able to get out of it but I'm not sure about others.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Dthrow > Fly is probably just a solid frame trap against midweights and/or fastfallers. Kinda unsafe though. I'd much rather bait the airdodge before risking trying to kill with fly.

 

[Jmacz]

Dthrow > Fly is probably just a solid frame trap against midweights and/or fastfallers. Kinda unsafe though. I'd much rather bait the airdodge before risking trying to kill with fly.

Yeah that seems right, usually I do have to bait the airdodge because of rage. It seems like it may combo with bad DI though, or at least be in that range where it's so close it's basically a combo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Dthrow to fly is only a read based thing.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Down throw to fly actually true combos on Ryu and Fox at 0%, but only the last 5 attacks hit it. Could be used as a mixup. Deals 18%.

 

[charizardbro]

Sorry that I haven't been to the thread in a while.

This is pretty nice. Tried out your stuff on C.Falcon.
You should add Dthrow > Flare Blitz, too.

Not really worth imo. It might be arguably worth in a select few situations though (at Fair kill percent against Sheik, just took first stock). I'm also relatively certain that they can DI away and either narrow the true combo percent range to the point that it's not worth mentioning or just airdodge it. I'll try it and get back to you though.

Does Downthrow->Fly combo? I'm testing it now and it's really hard to tell. I'm testing between 90-120% and it seems to hit 3 sometimes and 2 other times so I'm not sure if it's registering or not. I use it a lot on my friend and he can't seem to get out of it at certain percents. I usually try and hit it after Dthrow->Uair stops working and before Uthrow starts killing. Some characters like Luigi seem to always be able to get out of it but I'm not sure about others.

Dthrow -> Fly generally isn't worth it unless you are punishing an airdodge at high percent for a kill. At low percent, you would do more(?)/similar damage with an aerial followup. Fly isn't really worth using unless you are armoring your way through a bad situation or you are going to kill. It's not great for racking up damage. It's better to keep it fresh for a potential early kill or jab 2 -> Fly imo. Also very unsafe like Evilpinkamina pointed out. If you get a grab at that awkward percent where Uthrow won't kill and Dthrow -> Uair isn't a great option, just toss them off the edge and go for an edge guard.

Down throw to fly actually true combos on Ryu and Fox at 0%, but only the last 5 attacks hit it. Could be used as a mixup. Deals 18%.

Maybe that would be a time to use it then. Against fastfallers at 0%.

 

[Steeler]

Meh, won't uthrow -> fair also combo on fastfallers at 0? More damage and lets you maintain your advantage better. The thing about Fly is that you pretty much reset to neutral at best and at worst you don't connect right or whiff and are really vulnerable. Like, I lost a set recently because I punished something with Fly correctly but they DI'd away and I didn't hold completely forward to follow it. Got Yoshi up aired for my trouble.

It's a great move, really, but it certainly has drawbacks. Those drawbacks are what make it a poor option in advantage unless it's gonna kill.

 

[Z1GMA]

Sorry that I haven't been to the thread in a while.



Not really worth imo. It might be arguably worth in a select few situations though (at Fair kill percent against Sheik, just took first stock). I'm also relatively certain that they can DI away and either narrow the true combo percent range to the point that it's not worth mentioning or just airdodge it. I'll try it and get back to you though.



Dthrow -> Fly generally isn't worth it unless you are punishing an airdodge at high percent for a kill. At low percent, you would do more(?)/similar damage with an aerial followup. Fly isn't really worth using unless you are armoring your way through a bad situation or you are going to kill. It's not great for racking up damage. It's better to keep it fresh for a potential early kill or jab 2 -> Fly imo. Also very unsafe like Evilpinkamina pointed out. If you get a grab at that awkward percent where Uthrow won't kill and Dthrow -> Uair isn't a great option, just toss them off the edge and go for an edge guard.



Maybe that would be a time to use it then. Against fastfallers at 0%.

Well, Dthrow > Rising Flare Blitz only works if they DI away, and at mid %s. And in this case it's a true combo.
Hard to pull off Vs heavies, though, since well the longer Throw Lag.
It can kill light fastfallers at around 70% if you start the Dthrow at mid stage.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Meh, won't uthrow -> fair also combo on fastfallers at 0? More damage and lets you maintain your advantage better.

Also stales your kill throw which is already quite inconsistent even with the freshness bonus.

Like, I lost a set recently because I punished something with Fly correctly but they DI'd away and I didn't hold completely forward to follow it.

That seems more like an issue of not reading the DI over fly, though I do see what you're saying. Personally if both players are at kill % then you only want to use fly if they airdodge close to you expecting an up air or to recover.

 

[charizardbro]

Meh, won't uthrow -> fair also combo on fastfallers at 0? More damage and lets you maintain your advantage better. The thing about Fly is that you pretty much reset to neutral at best and at worst you don't connect right or whiff and are really vulnerable. Like, I lost a set recently because I punished something with Fly correctly but they DI'd away and I didn't hold completely forward to follow it. Got Yoshi up aired for my trouble.

It's a great move, really, but it certainly has drawbacks. Those drawbacks are what make it a poor option in advantage unless it's gonna kill.

I haven't tried Uthrow -> fair on fast fallers with DI (yet) but I've played against a really good Falco in tourney and I've found Dthrow -> Fair to be optimal at 0% because it can potentially lead into jabs or Dtilt depending on how they DI Fair and if they choose to run as soon as they're out of hitstun. And if you're feeling really ballsy you can go for jab 2 -> regrab if you get the jabs after Fair. I also totally forgot about the staling thing (ty pinkamina) so not only is Dthrow -> Fly unsafe and not optimal for damage output, it also stales our easy kill option.

Yea, people fall out of fly before the last hit a lot if you don't start it right next to them. I don't use it very often for that reason alone.

Well, Dthrow > Rising Flare Blitz only works if they DI away, and at mid %s. And in this case it's a true combo.
Hard to pull off Vs heavies, though, since well the longer Throw Lag.
It can kill light fastfallers at around 70% if you start the Dthrow at mid stage.

Wow. I didn't realize how potent that combo was against light fastfallers. Early kills everywhere. And I imagine that would be absurdly good with rage. I have to look into this a lot more. Thanks.

 

[Z1GMA]

I haven't tried Uthrow -> fair on fast fallers with DI (yet) but I've played against a really good Falco in tourney and I've found Dthrow -> Fair to be optimal at 0% because it can potentially lead into jabs or Dtilt depending on how they DI Fair and if they choose to run as soon as they're out of hitstun. And if you're feeling really ballsy you can go for jab 2 -> regrab if you get the jabs after Fair. I also totally forgot about the staling thing (ty pinkamina) so not only is Dthrow -> Fly unsafe and not optimal for damage output, it also stales our easy kill option.

Yea, people fall out of fly before the last hit a lot if you don't start it right next to them. I don't use it very often for that reason alone.



Wow. I didn't realize how potent that combo was against light fastfallers. Early kills everywhere. And I imagine that would be absurdly good with rage. I have to look into this a lot more. Thanks.

That's what I'm talking about, bro!
They normally want to DI away to avoid Dthrow > Uair, so Bam! Dead.

 

[charizardbro]

That's what I'm talking about, bro!
They normally want to DI away to avoid Dthrow > Uair, so Bam! Dead.

So uhhh I killed a ZSS at 75% (pre combo) in friendlies with a touch of rage using Dthrow (stale) -> Flare Blitz (fresh). He DI'd away. I still lost but that combo was hype as hell. I really wish I could test it against real people but that's the best I can tell you right now.

For those of us on the 3DS, bind specials to Y when you are connected to the Wii U. It makes the rising Flare Blitz input way easier.

 

[Steeler]

Not very useful, but FH delayed sour Dair combos into jab at middlish percents, assuming they are tall enough to get hit by it. I would treat it more like an okay frame trap. To do this right you need to dair around the peak of your full hop and not fast fall so you can still autocancel.

Uthrow can combo into Dragon Rush at a very specific percent range. For Yoshi this is around 20%. I think if they hold toward you it won't work, but that is counterintuitive to how you usually DI it.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Couldn't any dair combos be teched?

 

[Steeler]

This is with the sourspot of dair, which isn't a spike and sends them at an angle similar to nair.

It's inferior to nair in pretty much every instance but I figured I should mention it for completion's sake.

 

[Jmacz]

Not posting a combo but I think I found something about training mode that could really help in testing combo's. I've never seen anyone else mention this before, but I noticed that if you set the CPU to walk sometimes they will DI in the direction that they were walking. It doesn't happen every time, but I'd say about half of the time it does.

We still can't get them to DI up or down, but this at least gives people who don't have someone to practice these things with something to do.

 

[charizardbro]

Not posting a combo but I think I found something about training mode that could really help in testing combo's. I've never seen anyone else mention this before, but I noticed that if you set the CPU to walk sometimes they will DI in the direction that they were walking. It doesn't happen every time, but I'd say about half of the time it does.

We still can't get them to DI up or down, but this at least gives people who don't have someone to practice these things with something to do.

Thanks. I'll try this with some level 9s and see if they DI more. They seem to lightly DI in single player smash. It's kind of weird. Pretty useful for practicing combos out of Dthrow with DI (albeit meh DI) but not too great for finding definite percent ranges.

Couldn't any dair combos be teched?

Yes. It's not an easy tech though.

Not very useful, but FH delayed sour Dair combos into jab at middlish percents, assuming they are tall enough to get hit by it. I would treat it more like an okay frame trap. To do this right you need to dair around the peak of your full hop and not fast fall so you can still autocancel.

Uthrow can combo into Dragon Rush at a very specific percent range. For Yoshi this is around 20%. I think if they hold toward you it won't work, but that is counterintuitive to how you usually DI it.

Thanks. I'll probably get to this one last though.

I figured there were Dragon Rush combos for U/Dthrow but I didn't add them because the meta seems to be shifting away from customs. DIing in would also leave them a lot more vulnerable to Fair so it's a lose-lose pretty much.


I really wish I had Dthrow -> Flare Blitz DI away ranges. This is the early kill setup I've been looking for. If anybody has the means to check, please do it.