Character-specific ATs that are actually universal?!?

[SamuraiPanda]

I've noticed something recently. The mostly-useless "AT" I discovered a little while back, the Dash Pivot Cancel, wasn't truly a discovery by me. Apparently, Squirtle was known to do this, and they called it Hydro planing Shell shifting (I was close enough). But they thought it only worked with Squirtle's upsmash. And you know what? They didn't even know why it worked, they just knew it worked. What I discovered was merely that the turnaround animation from the dash can be canceled, and it will keep your momentum. All I really did was figure out how Squirtle's old tech worked.

And now, the SJR was "discovered" recently. I figured out how it worked, and people like Makkun set to research it thoroughly and make it a legitimate AT (props for the work Makkun). But you know what? The SJR was actually posted in the Marth boards, and Gazebo, who apparently reads the Marth boards, figured out this didn't only work with Marth. Then later we find out that Charizard was able to do this for awhile under the name "U-air infinite." Nobody bothered to figure out how or why this worked, and it was left alone until recently.

I'm sure many of you can see where I'm going with this. I don't pretend to know or understand the ATs for most of the characters in the game. I probably can't perform 1/2 of whats posted in the AT sticky. But between all of the users who frequent the BTD, I'm sure we've got every character covered 3 times over (well, maybe not Falcon =D). So I urge you to take a look at your character's ATs, new or old. If they don't utilize something extremely unique to the character (i.e. Pit's up-B), then maybe other characters can do it. If nobody really understands why something works, then figure it out. You may even discover a new universal AT.

 

[Anth0ny]

Nice post. It's very true.

*boots up training mode*

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Most (all?) of Lucas's AT's are reliant on his special moves, so I can't see anyone other than Ness sharing them. Unless Snake firing his Nikita while running off a ledge makes something funny happen... <_<

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Most (all?) of Lucas's AT's are reliant on his special moves, so I can't see anyone other than Ness sharing them.

That reminds me. Lucas' "Zap Jump" was discovered quite quickly, but it took people awhile to find out that the same can apply to other character's attacks as well (i.e. Zamus' second jump and up B at the same time). Yet another example to throw out there ^_^

You'd be surprised at how universal these things can get.

 

[kamekasu]

You're confusing hydroplaning for shellshifting, but the principle is correct.
And you missed the most obvious example; "snakedashing," i.e. dashattack-canceled U-smash can be done with any character.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

You're confusing hydroplaning for shellshifting, but the principle is correct.
And you missed the most obvious example; "snakedashing," i.e. dashattack-canceled U-smash can be done with any character.

Thanks for the correction. I guess that really enforces the point that I'm not too well-versed every AT, eh?

Also, "snakedashing" wasn't discovered solely for Snake. The Japanese video that revealed it had Wario, Wolf, Shiek, Link, and Snake at the end.

 

[bacun]

That reminds me. Lucas' "Zap Jump" was discovered quite quickly, but it took people awhile to find out that the same can apply to other character's attacks as well (i.e. Zamus' second jump and up B at the same time). Yet another example to throw out there ^_^

You'd be surprised at how universal these things can get.

Well, I do believe that zap jumping and Zamus's boost are based on completely different principles: up+b tethers that don't autosnap have a slight "grace boost" that's more powerful when combined with a second jump, e.g. ivysaur, olimar, zamus, IC all have it, while zap jumping is cancelling the initial upwards momentum of Lucas's jump with a PK fire which keeps the initial momentum through PK fire's duration. I could be completely wrong, but this isn't the *best* example to use.

 

[KernelColonel]

And so Brawl begins to unfold...

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I remember when the universal AT for sliding up smashes came out, somebody mentioned, "This is just snake dashing with other characters.", so it was probably a Snake specific technique at first, but then caught on.

 

[edddddie]

yeah, people didn't figure out (or at least it wasn't common knowledge) that snakedashing could be done with all characters until after a while

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I'm not sure if this is the intent of your thread, but I have videos that I think everyone should look at:

I've been calling them Rising Specials. So far, it can be done to the greatest extent with Diddy and Zelda.

Diddy:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q2uair9THRI

Zelda:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hfNbcRBR-0M

Anyway, I posted these in their specific forums, but haven't posted here in the Tactical Forums. This seemed like a good time to do so.


I'm sure this can be done with other characters. I haven't tested every single special move with all the characters.

Sorry if this is the wrong place.

 

[kamekasu]

Well, I do believe that zap jumping and Zamus's boost are based on completely different principles: up+b tethers that don't autosnap have a slight "grace boost" that's more powerful when combined with a second jump, e.g. ivysaur, olimar, zamus, IC all have it, while zap jumping is cancelling the initial upwards momentum of Lucas's jump with a PK fire which keeps the initial momentum through PK fire's duration. I could be completely wrong, but this isn't the *best* example to use.

It operates on the same principle. Try it with Diddy's Rocketbarrel Boost.
The technique is applied in a different way (for recovery) but it is still applicable to multiple characters.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I'm not sure if this is the intent of your thread, but I have videos that I think everyone should look at:

I've been calling them Rising Specials. So far, it can be done to the greatest extent with Diddy and Zelda.

Diddy:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q2uair9THRI

Zelda:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hfNbcRBR-0M

Anyway, I posted these in their specific forums, but haven't posted here in the Tactical Forums. This seemed like a good time to do so.


I'm sure this can be done with other characters. I haven't tested every single special move with all the characters.

Sorry if this is the wrong place.

....I completely forgot about that. I figured out how that worked, btw. I did it the day I saw the Zelda thread where they found out it worked with Naryu's love. It works with a couple other things. Like how it lets Zamus/Sonic do the Dair stall like Toon Link (although thats probably common knowledge).

Ugh, its too tedious to type right now. I guess I'll make a post on it tomorrow if I feel like it. Oh yeah, its difficult, but you can move vertically and horizontally with Zelda's rising special if you hit right/left then jump, and move your control stick back to neutral really fast then hit B. Easy to see with B sticking since you can do neutrals with it, but possible without it, too.

Anyways, I'ma head to bed now.

 

[edddddie]

....I completely forgot about that. I figured out how that worked the day I saw the Zelda thread where they found out it worked with Naryu's love. Ugh, its too tedious to type right now. I guess I'll make a post on it tomorrow if I feel like it. Oh yeah, its difficult, but you can move horizontally and vertically with Zelda's rising special if you hit right/left then jump, and move your control stick back to neutral really fast then hit B. Easy to see with B sticking since you can do neutrals with it, but possible without it, too.

yeah that's the same as zamus' and diddy's upB. its just the exact same as zap jump except you can't use it on the stage, you have to use it for recovery when you've been hit

 

[Jewdo]

Jeepy's right. Rising Specials, though originally discovered with just a few characters (Lucario and ROB are two others), have proven to be the result of a seemingly intentional game mechanic. I have the discovery marked as "Drifting Aerials and Specials" in the AT thread, quoted below for reference:

- Drifting Aerials and Specials
If a character tries to perform any momentum-altering aerial after they're hit into the air, the move's momentum-altering properties will not take effect. This mechanic may be in place to prevent characters with Falcon Kick-style D-airs (and other momentum-stoppers) from being ridiculously hard to kill.

Remember when Faux Super-Armor was discovered in Snake? That too turned out to be a universal property of the game engine.

The D-air stall glitch was originally discovered in Toon Link, but later found to be a property of all D-airs that shoot the character downwards.

Peach's D-tilt Backdash glitch also applied later to Mario's F-tilt. It may later be found to apply to even more moves.

The list goes on, and may have even more additions in the future. Great topic, Panda.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Yeah, I posted that video and how to do it in the Diddy forums a couple of months ago. People have been calling it useless because you have to have been hit before you can do it. Anyway, I'm sure it can be done with more of the characters.

 

[-Aether]

Yeah, this is a valid point SP. The issue is, unlike in melee, the usefulness of AT's greatly vary with character. Brawl does lend itself to these kind of discoveries.

 

[Tyr_03]

I've been dealing with this stuff for a long time. That's why I always look out for the "NEW ADVANCED TECHNIQUE" threads on all the character boards. I take that information and try it with other characters and find new stuff. A lot of times it gets ignored. I made my post on the Thunderslide with lucas after operating on the same principle as Melee Sheik's Up B used while running off a ledge. After analyzing the Thunderslide and seeing Mario's cape gliding technique I tested and made a list of all B moves that boost your momentum when used while going off a ledge. This lead to the discovery that DK's over B did the same thing as well as quite a few other moves.

The concept of autocancelling by landing early in the attack animation was brought up by watching Marth players who were autocancelling their Nairs for combos. I then made a list of every aerial for every character that autocancels. It's as important to know as L cancelling was.

Lucas's Zap Jump is actually a function that every character shares however not at all in the same form. For almost all other characters "zap jumping" with any B move that doesn't affect momentum or while throwing an item simply allows them to perform a move while doing their regular height second jump. I made a post on the tactics board about this and it was widely ignored even though it's useful with some characters for rising specials. In addition, Yoshi when "zap jumping" actually gains downward momentum as some odd function of his specific character.

Most character specific ATs transfer across characters with varying degrees of usefulness because they operate on a function of the game and rarely a function of a specific move. This should be remembered for any new "character specific technique" as most likely it is not in fact character specific at all.

 

[Adapt]

I'm pretty sure the up-b jump boost (zamus) has been known much longer than the zap jump. Btw, I remember that lucas's zap is the best special to b-stick wavebounce, has anyone went along and checked all the best wavebouncing specials to see if they can create the same effect as a zap jump? I can't use b-sticking on the chuk-mote controller setup

I can't get Zamus's dair to stall like TL's though
Also, you hear Sonic mains going on about how their dair can be auto-canceled if started at a certain height, but I believe all dairs like that can (it works with zamus but at an increased height, making it next to useless)

 

[giuocob]

What? Aw, I thought we at the Kirby forums had the SRJ first with hammer cancelling...but yeah, I didn't know the same thing would apply to so many characters.

 

[Tenki]

This just brought to mind the Gyro Cancel that I saw pop up in DK and Mario boards.

haha.. they're robots.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Also, you hear Sonic mains going on about how their dair can be auto-canceled if started at a certain height, but I believe all dairs like that can (it works with zamus but at an increased height, making it next to useless)

I believe it's just that the dair ends before you hit the ground, not really an autocancel. Because at that same height you can get a second jump out, or the aerial version of the up B. What's so unique about Sonic's is that it travels only a little farther than his up B does, so if you jump and up B(where the spring doesn't stay on the ground.), you'll always be able to end the dair before you land. It's really usefull for escaping followup attacks.

And also, do any characters besides Sonic have jump cancelable attacks? (I'm refering to his down B and side B) If so, they might be able to "spin shot" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsPU6nCm5iI
2:06-2:24

 

[Tenki]

^ you mean his up-B sends him further than his D-air's length*

From the Side-B/Down-B mechanics thread:

Spin Shot
Spin shot is the technique that allows you to do a "full hop" at something similar to running speed, allowing Sonic to have *gasp* high air speed!

The basic input for this is usually side-B (charge) > release + [Jump/Attack]

You may have noticed that it only works if you have a double jump remaining, and here's why: Spin shot IS a double jump. It will not work from a grounded Spin Charge because you are not in the air, and it will not work without a double jump because you can't jump-cancel the moves.

...But it is NOT a normal double-jump. The 'jump cancel' from pressing jump or attack during an aerial charge (both side/down-b), SD hop, or ASC is a little different from a normal double-jump, since you go into it pressing either [attack] or [jump]. I'm guessing it's this 'special' double-jump that allows you to Spin Shot.

This move only seems to work by jump-cancelling during an aerial phase change:
- Side-B (charge) > SD (Hop) + jump
- Aerial Down-b (charge) > ASC + jump
- SDR (roll off platform) > ASC + jump

You can't do it out of a SDJ because SDJ is the last move - it doesn't flow into any other phases.

If it works as I guessed here, then it won't work with any other attacks, because as far as I know, there aren't any jump-cancellable attacks with phase changes like Sonic's.

[edited for more clarity]
btw, for non Sonic players:
SD = side-B hop ("Spin Dash")
ASC = aerial down-B attack ("Aerial Spin Charge")
SDR = rolling phase ("Spin Dash Roll")
SDJ = jump with attack aura from the rolling phase ("Spin Dash Jump")

[edit2]
vvv O_O; seriously, you didn't d-air cancel from grounded springs? x.x;

Well, at least now you know how to make a spring and d-air cancel if you want to use it as a setup lol.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Oops, my bad. I guess I'm just attacking to early after the up B.

BTW, what does the C stand for in ASC?

 

[nightSN]

hmm this is very true. well brawl is starting to show its real colours now (:

 

[Adapt]

well i think i got both hits out of the dair (in air, and hitting ground), i'll check that soon and get back to you.


EDIT: you are correct, i thought i had gotten the 2 hits out of the dair and followed it immediately with an up-tilt, but I can't reproduce that so I must have remembered it wrong. Therefor the aerial is ending at ground level.

 

[storm92]

Such as how Fox's Fair gives him a "hovering effect" when used directly after a second jump, and Snake does it as well?
Very good points Panda.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Meh, that's pretty much how b-reversing got discovered. Someone on the Pikachu forums posted this thunder reversal that turned out to work for a lot of other b moves-- it was just that none of the Pikachu mains bothered to check it out. In fact, the only reason I even spotted it was because I was researching Pikas at the time to find some of their weaknesses. It's just that a lot of people that have a "main" don't care so much what benefits other characters so they don't report a tech in a general section.

 

[BurningCrusader777]

Actually, the whole thing with "Snakedashing" was probably my fault lol. I saw a video of Champ (using Snake) on YouTube and he was Dash Attack Cancelling a lot. It was YouTube, so I jokingly named the technique Snakedashing... And it caught on >_>

Though, you know, small world that it is, someone else probably called it Snakedashing before me.