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N3ON

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It'd be a fair thing to say that a majority who actually care enough about the Mewtwo DLC already have both games or are planning on getting both before the promotional period ends.
Lots of people do have both games and are aware of the Mewtwo deal, but those that care about Mewtwo yet don't fit some other part of the criteria number much larger, if only because Smash's more casual fanbase dwarfs the dedicated one, even if the dedicated one is much louder. Especially since the game will be popular for years and continue to accrue an audience long after the promotion ends. It is an "evergreen" game after all.

Most of the people I know who picked up Smash didn't even know Mewtwo was coming as DLC.
 
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PSIBoy

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How would you doubt them if they where fully fuctional? Thus had their complete moveset finished. Yes, am pretty sure we are gonna see Ice Climbers back. :popo:
3DS... Sakurai already said both versions are going to have the same roster. Not even the New 3DS being able to handle them will have him change his tune, (pardon the pun) for he would refuse to rip off old 3DS owners.
 

JaidynReiman

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Which depends on how many people aren't getting Mewtwo for free.
Um, no, not at all. What on earth are you getting at?


The more people "get Mewtwo for free", the more money makes. It doesn't matter if people are buying both consoles; buying both games ALONE is about 5x as much, at LEAST, of how much Mewtwo would cost as single DLC. Mewtwo would not be $10 alone, and Smash 3DS is $40.


Nobody gets Mewtwo for free. Throw out this notion all-together and you'll save yourself a lot of headache.



Nintendo isn't going to take into consideration sales of Mewtwo as a sole paid DLC character. They'll more take into consideration people who forked over the money for both versions of the game to get Mewtwo. They'll probably add Mewtwo up as sole paid DLC later for convenience, but long before then they'll already know if Mewtwo "made enough" since people have to pay at the very least $100 to get Mewtwo right now.
 
D

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Um, no, not at all. What on earth are you getting at?


The more people "get Mewtwo for free", the more money makes. It doesn't matter if people are buying both consoles; buying both games ALONE is about 5x as much, at LEAST, of how much Mewtwo would cost as single DLC. Mewtwo would not be $10 alone, and Smash 3DS is $40.


Nobody gets Mewtwo for free. Throw out this notion all-together and you'll save yourself a lot of headache.



Nintendo isn't going to take into consideration sales of Mewtwo as a sole paid DLC character. They'll more take into consideration people who forked over the money for both versions of the game to get Mewtwo. They'll probably add Mewtwo up as sole paid DLC later for convenience, but long before then they'll already know if Mewtwo "made enough" since people have to pay at the very least $100 to get Mewtwo right now.
A. It was already confirmed Mewtwo will be made paid DLC after the promotional period is over.


B. There's no feasible way to determine how many people bought both games solely for Mewtwo (don't attempt to fabricate one for the sake of an argument) as opposed to, I don't know, already intending on getting both.


C. The literal only way to determine Mewtwo's sales are sales of Mewtwo specifically. Trying to argue otherwise while condescendingly telling me to drop this notion for the sake of "saving myself a headache" gives me little reason to actually consider what you have to say.
You want to give a reasonable argument why my notion is flawed? Fine. Do it without acting like I'm mentally handicapped if you want me to actually look into it.


Lots of people do have both games and are aware of the Mewtwo deal, but those that care about Mewtwo yet don't fit some other part of the criteria number much larger, if only because Smash's more casual fanbase dwarfs the dedicated one, even if the dedicated one is much louder. Especially since the game will be popular for years and continue to accrue an audience long after the promotion ends. It is an "evergreen" game after all.
Most of the people I know who picked up Smash didn't even know Mewtwo was coming as DLC.
I didn't say those who care about Mewtwo. I said those who care about the Mewtwo DLC.
I'm sure there are plenty who care about Mewtwo in general that aren't within the group that have both games or are planning to get both.
However, like I said, the majority that care about the DLC already have both games or were intending on getting both. You yourself gave a good example at the end of your post with many people you know already having Smash before they even caught wind of Mewtwo.
 
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Arcadenik

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I bought both versions just because I wanted both versions regardless... and Mewtwo is a nice bonus that I can live without.

I guess my boyfriend will have to pay for Mewtwo DLC since he only got the Wii U version.
 
D

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I bought both versions just because I wanted both versions regardless... and Mewtwo is a nice bonus that I can live without.

I guess my boyfriend will have to pay for Mewtwo DLC since he only got the Wii U version.
.....but if you bought both versions and don't care about Mewtwo.....couldn't you just give him the download code for the Wii U game if he wants Mewtwo?
 
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Arcadenik

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Knowing that Mewtwo is on the way, my OCD doesn't allow me to accept an incomplete roster. :(

Hell, even if Pichu, Young Link, or Roy were on the way, I would still want to get it just to have a complete roster.

If there were no DLC characters, I would still live with the current roster since it is considered complete.

Same with why I got all DLC packs for Mario Kart 8 and Hyrule Warriors.
 

JaidynReiman

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A. It was already confirmed Mewtwo will be made paid DLC after the promotional period is over.


B. There's no feasible way to determine how many people bought both games solely for Mewtwo (don't attempt to fabricate one for the sake of an argument) as opposed to, I don't know, already intending on getting both.


C. The literal only way to determine Mewtwo's sales are sales of Mewtwo specifically. Trying to argue otherwise while condescendingly telling me to drop this notion for the sake of "saving myself a headache" gives me little reason to actually consider what you have to say.
You want to give a reasonable argument why my notion is flawed? Fine. Do it without acting like I'm mentally handicapped if you want me to actually look into it.
A. Yes, it was confirmed Mewtwo will be made paid DLC. But they're sure trying to hide that fact by leaving vague notes in small print saying either "Oh, yeah, he'll be available for purchase later", or even "Oh, yeah, he MAY be available for purchase later." They're doing everything they can not to clearly state that Mewtwo will be available at a later point.

B. That's largely what the surveys are for. The surveys specifically bring up the Mewtwo promotional for a reason. They want to know who bought both versions for Mewtwo. In many cases, people weren't sure if they wanted both versions, but Mewtwo may have been the tipping point.

C. By the time the Mewtwo paid DLC comes out it'll be too late. Most people who want it will already have it anyway. They are NOT going to make this decision based solely on actual individual sales Mewtwo makes, because that is only an after thought. If they were going to handle it that way, they wouldn't have bothered with the promotional in the first place. Besides, they're trying to hide the fact that Mewtwo will be available later anyway without denying it.


Mewtwo being paid DLC later is only so the effort gone into making him isn't wasted, and people who missed the promotional can still get him. If Mewtwo's paid non-promotional DLC selling well is the only way to get more DLC, its horrible judgment on Nintendo's part and DLC beyond Mewtwo won't happen.
 

pupNapoleon

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You do realize your sample size is nine people, four of whom said veterans, one of whom said they didn't really care, and all of whom actually know who Chorus Kids and Isaac are.
I noted that the size is not ideal. However, the only market argued veterans strictly appeal to as a "better option" has been alreay shown to not be entirely accurate.

The actual test should say "any three newcomer," those just happen to be two specific ones. I think arguing the fact that they know Isaac and Chorus Kids is a losing battle- because knowing who Lucas and Wolf are, which is still a questionable assumption, certainly does not necessarily make them more desirable than something as unique looking as, say, a character trio.
Another thing worth noting is that the three veterans in question don't include Mewtwo.

If he was one of the three veterans chances are the split would be much more pronounced.
That's again, part of the logical fallacy of thinking of this as something we can quantify with specific choices for Newcomers and Veterans.
If we are going to do that, why not add in Megaman to the Newcomer, and take it as a 'well, he wasn't added until this roster, so he counts as a newcomer people wanted?'
If you stack up the three most wanted newcomers, it would hands down win. That isn't the point of the question. What if the newcomer selection were "Ridley, Bomberman and Dixie?" Could that really be paralleled with any veterans?

Now, about the Mewtwo DLC conversation going on:
I've written in depth posts that I'm glad your discussion, @ JaidynReiman JaidynReiman @GoldenYuiitusin is pointing out.
There is absolutely no way that Mewtwo could legitimately be "testing the water" as far as sales go. This is exactly how we can tell that, if that phrase was to be applied to downloadable reference for Mewtwo, it falls into the categorization of logical paradox.
Another user has since pointed out to me that the phrase "test the water" may refer to Mewtwo testing how characters would be developed, particularly in balancing. Something along these lines could be plausible- but testing sales/ It could not.
 
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Bowserlick

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If the amount of 3DS sales and Smash 3D tick up when Mewtwo is near release (coupled with market research data and focus groups), Nintendo might come to some sort of prediction that: if sales are correlated with Mewtwo and if people are therefore willing to buy an extra system and/or game for one DLC, other DLC's (for less than a new system and/or game) is feasible as a profit garnering move.
 

Arcadenik

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Maybe Nintendo will want SSB5 to be on the next home console and the next handheld... and hold overrated characters like Ridley hostages as free DLC unless you buy both versions (and buy both systems)... so they can squeeze extra money out of us. :awesome:

Oh, and the Ice Climbers remain cut because the next handheld cannot handle them. :troll:
 

pupNapoleon

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Maybe Nintendo will want SSB5 to be on the next home console and the next handheld... and hold overrated characters like Ridley hostages as free DLC unless you buy both versions (and buy both systems)... so they can squeeze extra money out of us. :awesome:

Oh, and the Ice Climbers remain cut because the next handheld cannot handle them. :troll:
I think it's likely. It will probably cut Mario too, because that new 3D model will not provide a true enough red color required to accurately represent Nintendo's mascot.
 

Staarih

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I got both games at launch, and I would love to use them to get Mewtwo for free, but as it turns out, my country doesn't offer the special deal (at least no news on it yet and I figure there would have been by now). Which sucks. So I'm going to be one of the few who has both games, does care about Mewtwo DLC, but will still have to (most likely) pay for him.
 

Xzsmmc

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Um... I think you missed the part where I said that they don't work on the 3DS...
3DS version didn't need to exist imo. Made us lose the Ice Climbers, and possibly sucked up more development time than SSE. I wouldn't be surprised if it's also why the new stage count on the Wii U is pretty meh. I really wish we culd have gotten stuff like the Unova League and Retro Mute City on the Wii U. Only leg the 3DS version has up on the Wii U is Smash Run. Beats Calvinball: The Video Game any day.
 
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D

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Knowing that Mewtwo is on the way, my OCD doesn't allow me to accept an incomplete roster. :(

Hell, even if Pichu, Young Link, or Roy were on the way, I would still want to get it just to have a complete roster.

If there were no DLC characters, I would still live with the current roster since it is considered complete.

Same with why I got all DLC packs for Mario Kart 8 and Hyrule Warriors.
Gotcha......I'm kind of the same way. There could be DLC for frigging ponies, and I'd still download them for the sake of completion.

A. Yes, it was confirmed Mewtwo will be made paid DLC. But they're sure trying to hide that fact by leaving vague notes in small print saying either "Oh, yeah, he'll be available for purchase later", or even "Oh, yeah, he MAY be available for purchase later." They're doing everything they can not to clearly state that Mewtwo will be available at a later point.
That's how promotion works. The CDs and Mewtwo's free download (as stated as such in the 50 Facts Extravaganza) are advertised as bonus gifts to those who have both games (as in Nintendo's not saying "If you don't have both games you better go buy them now or else you'll never get Mewtwo!"). They are promoting the free gifts, not the content itself.
Why would they give emphasis to Mewtwo being purchasable after the promotion within said promotion? A brief aside to state Mewtwo would still be available to those who miss out on the promotion later is all that's needed.

B. That's largely what the surveys are for. The surveys specifically bring up the Mewtwo promotional for a reason. They want to know who bought both versions for Mewtwo. In many cases, people weren't sure if they wanted both versions, but Mewtwo may have been the tipping point.
That is a fair point, I will not deny. At the same time, I'm willing to bet that the ones that bought both solely for Mewtwo (and/or the CDs) are in the minority.

C. By the time the Mewtwo paid DLC comes out it'll be too late. Most people who want it will already have it anyway. They are NOT going to make this decision based solely on actual individual sales Mewtwo makes, because that is only an after thought. If they were going to handle it that way, they wouldn't have bothered with the promotional in the first place. Besides, they're trying to hide the fact that Mewtwo will be available later anyway without denying it.
Judging by how they're handling Mewtwo, it would bring credence to points I have brought up in the past about how Mewtwo isn't being used to judge success of DLC like how people interpret what Sakurai has said, but rather what Sakurai was saying is that Mewtwo is merely to test how content distribution would work. He sees Mewtwo as part of the complete package as opposed to something completely extraneous like future DLC would be.


Mewtwo being paid DLC later is only so the effort gone into making him isn't wasted, and people who missed the promotional can still get him. If Mewtwo's paid non-promotional DLC selling well is the only way to get more DLC, its horrible judgment on Nintendo's part and DLC beyond Mewtwo won't happen.
Except nowhere was it ever stated that future DLC rests on how Mewtwo does. That concept has been solely fan speculation based on how people interpreted Sakurai's statement.
What will really determine whether or not future paid DLC can be pretty much summed up by what Sakurai has said:
I understand that DLC could add a lot to the appeal of Smash Bros., and I appreciate that a major part of the excitement for these games come from which characters will appear in the roster, so I think fans could really enjoy DLC that could keep this excitement going.

However, I think there might be criticism that we are cutting up content to sell characters one by one, or that we are adding things later that should have been there from the start.

Creating a single fighter involves a huge investment, and we've already been giving it our all and investing a lot of work in the characters currently available in the game and, I think it's an incredible package in terms of the sheer amount of content in the game. But it might be that people may not understand and may think that I am not offering enough by just looking at DLC itself.

In light of this, we always need to weigh up both sides of this topic and carefully consider whether it really is best to have DLC or not.

However, what I can say now about paid DLC is that we aren't working on anything at the moment. We've put all our efforts into making the actual game. Creating DLC would involve large additional costs and require the involvement of a lot of people. I can’t yet give you an answer about whether the price would justify the costs and criticisms mentioned above.
Basically, whether or not extraneous content that requires time and effort to make is worth the negative stigma of milking the fanbase that the concept of DLC has (which you can thank Capcom for).
Sure, you may argue that there are plenty that just think "more, more, MOAR!" and don't look at it past that, but there are plenty others who, for example, feel that Mewtwo shouldn't have even been DLC in the first place and instead part of the initial release. That having to buy him later if they couldn't get him through the promotional period (or even your example of people buying both games specifically to get the free download codes) is a rip-off.

If Sakurai and the development team decide it's worth it in the end, there will be more. If they don't, there won't be. We won't find out the ultimate decision until quite some time after Mewtwo's release, when the team has had an opportunity to take a break and think it over.
 

kikaru

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3DS version didn't need to exist imo. Made us lose the Ice Climbers, and possibly sucked up more development time than SSE. I wouldn't be surprised if it's also why the new stage count on the Wii U is pretty meh. I really wish we culd have gotten stuff like the Unova League and Retro Mute City on the Wii U. Only leg the 3DS version has up on the Wii U is Smash Run. Beats Calvinball: The Video Game any day.
Keep in mind that the number of 3DS owners outnumbers that of Wii U owners by approximately 5-6:1, by removing up to 83-86% of their potential, existing playerbase, Nintendo would probably have made much less money even if Wii U sales were boosted as a result of being able to obtain Smash on one console.

From a financial standpoint, it doesn't make sense to maintain the same development budget but slash a majority of your potential, target audience. If Smash only came for Wii U, projected profits would most certainly plummet and therefore most likely result in a smaller development budget to compensate, presumably leading to less content overall (Or even more unpolished content).
 

JaidynReiman

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Keep in mind that the number of 3DS owners outnumbers that of Wii U owners by approximately 5-6:1, by removing up to 83-86% of their potential, existing playerbase, Nintendo would probably have made much less money even if Wii U sales were boosted as a result of being able to obtain Smash on one console.

From a financial standpoint, it doesn't make sense to maintain the same development budget but slash a majority of your potential, target audience. If Smash only came for Wii U, projected profits would most certainly plummet and therefore most likely result in a smaller development budget to compensate, presumably leading to less content overall (Or even more unpolished content).
The thing is, though, it was the exact opposite when they first planned out the game. They expected Wii U sales to be fine, they were more worried about the 3DS because its sales were crap. They actually planned the 3DS version to help the 3DS. If anything, this would've been better console-exclusive, because they could've sold more Wii U's with the game being only on Wii U.

Having Smash on 3DS hurt Wii U sales. Sure, they would've never sold as many copies of Smash as Smash 3DS did (at least not anytime soon), but Smash being exclusive to Wii U would've boosted Wii U sales much more than it ended up doing (because a lot of people decided "screw it, I'm just getting the 3DS version").


It doesn't particularly matter now, though.
 

Pazzo.

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There was no way that they could have predicted the Wii U to well badly.

Quite frankly, making two versions so everyone can get a shot at it was a good idea, especially with the huge 3ds user base in Japan.
 

Andinus

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The thing is, though, it was the exact opposite when they first planned out the game. They expected Wii U sales to be fine, they were more worried about the 3DS because its sales were crap. They actually planned the 3DS version to help the 3DS. If anything, this would've been better console-exclusive, because they could've sold more Wii U's with the game being only on Wii U.

Having Smash on 3DS hurt Wii U sales. Sure, they would've never sold as many copies of Smash as Smash 3DS did (at least not anytime soon), but Smash being exclusive to Wii U would've boosted Wii U sales much more than it ended up doing (because a lot of people decided "screw it, I'm just getting the 3DS version").


It doesn't particularly matter now, though.
Except I think the 3ds version was more made for smash noobs and casual players though simply based on the fact that its a lot easier, at least as far as challenges go. So to me that means they saw the 3ds owners as separate from wii u owners, and wanted to use the 3ds version to show handheld owners how great this game is, and encourage them to make the jump to the wii u version by offering even more content and a shiny mewtwo and game soundtrack if they are willing to make the jump.

Also do you have any evidence that they wanted a 3ds version to help a failing 3ds or actually projected its sales to end up being bad?
 

Curious Villager

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Didn't the 3DS start to pick up around the time Kid Icarus Uprising came out? (Not that this has much to do with the topic at hand but yeah.....)
 
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pupNapoleon

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It really took off when it got a much needed price drop.
Man, this reminds me how much I wish I knew of the ambassador program back then. So many awesome free games if you bought the early 3DS...
 

JamesDNaux

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I feel like Snake and the entire Metal Gear franchise left far too big of a hole for the game to be considered perfect.

And the Ice Climbers, to a lesser extent. But they at least still have content left in the game.

Snake coming back would make things better, but it'll never be truly complete without the Climbers.
 

BKupa666

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If we're still running that "veteran or newcomer" DLC hypothetical, mark me down in the veterans column. Only K. Rool is a more enticing newcomer to me than outstanding guys like Wolf or Lucas.
 

Xzsmmc

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I feel like Snake and the entire Metal Gear franchise left far too big of a hole for the game to be considered perfect.

And the Ice Climbers, to a lesser extent. But they at least still have content left in the game.

Snake coming back would make things better, but it'll never be truly complete without the Climbers.
I never had much connection to Metal Gear or the Ice Climbers. But while I personally can live without them, I would like them back for their fans. Roster cuts in general just suck. No one likes having their favorite character removed for no known reason (or in the Ice Climbers' case, a very avoidable reason). My poor Lucas...
 

pupNapoleon

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Speaking of DLC, i've made a revamp of the most famous fan made render of Balloon Fighter, take a look and tell me what you guys think:

I think that's a stellar job man; however, might I ask why, particularly in the face, you removed some of the detail? The backpack as well.
 
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cothero

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I think that's a stellar job man; however, might I ask why, particularly in the face, you removed some of the detail? The backpack as well.
I've made some modifications mainly to give it a cleaner and more similar aspect to the original Balloon Fighter character from the NES. I also gave a more vivid color to his skin and a helmet similar to that one Villager wears on his "Balloon Trip" move.
 

[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]

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Basically, whether or not extraneous content that requires time and effort to make is worth the negative stigma of milking the fanbase that the concept of DLC has (which you can thank Capcom for).
Sure, you may argue that there are plenty that just think "more, more, MOAR!" and don't look at it past that, but there are plenty others who, for example, feel that Mewtwo shouldn't have even been DLC in the first place and instead part of the initial release. That having to buy him later if they couldn't get him through the promotional period (or even your example of people buying both games specifically to get the free download codes) is a rip-off.

If Sakurai and the development team decide it's worth it in the end, there will be more. If they don't, there won't be. We won't find out the ultimate decision until quite some time after Mewtwo's release, when the team has had an opportunity to take a break and think it over.
The game itself is already ready in case more DLC is added, through hacking, we have found evidence of this. The only thing that bugs me with Mewtwo is why get the whole team back together just to work on Mewtwo, Miiverse stage(day1ban for distracting background images:troll:), 3DS amiibo support, and Tourney mode. Only one of those things is compatible with both versions. Why not work on a cut character or two, Sakurai didn't reveal any cut characters other than Ice Climbers, possibly due to the fact that he might bring them back as DLC. If alot of people pledge to support DLC, it could sway Sakurai and Nintendo to do more DLC. Just look at my signature, I'm trying to get alot of supporters for Wolf to show Sakurai that people would invest in Wolf DLC, and that it would be welcomed greatly.(As of this post there are 571 supporters on the supporter list)
Plus most aren't to happy with how Wolf is currently represented in smash 4.

Fans of the other cut characters and even some newcomers are also starting to draft petitions and make twitter pages too. Basically everyone is trying to convince Sakurai and Nintendo that DLC is a worthy investment.
 

Arcadenik

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571 supporters for Wolf? That's nice but the amount of supporters doesn't really matter that much to be the biggest deciding factor. We got Wii Fit Trainer and Duck Hunt instead of two certain reptilian villains after all.
 

[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]

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571 supporters for Wolf? That's nice but the amount of supporters doesn't really matter that much to be the biggest deciding factor. We got Wii Fit Trainer and Duck Hunt instead of two certain reptilian villains after all.
Though Wolf is a veteran, we asked to have Mewtwo, a veteran back for years and Spring 2015. Point is this is the first smash bros that is even capable of DLC. We're trying to show Sakurai that we want Wolf playable again. The Wolf currently in Smash 4 is a complete disgrace, due to how bad it looks compared to Brawl Wolf, now this wouldn't be as bad, if the codecs hadn't returned, now we have to look at an ugly Wolf as he says the same things he said when he was playable. Not to mention Fox's Wolf Flash (bet that will confuse a bunch of smash newcomers). We have a better shot getting the veterans back, since they have fanbases and were playable in previous smash bros games. Then there's that rumor that Wolf is apparently Sakurai's favorite Starfox character and that the Namco dev team really likes him too. Plus since he'll be appearing in the new Starfox game, it makes even less sense to remove him. We can't completely control Sakurai's thoughts on newcomers,but veterans we've got a better foothold on.
 

Arcadenik

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Do we have proof that Wolf will absolutely appear in Star Fox Wii U or is that just your wishful thinking?

I am honestly not confident with Wolf being in SSB4... why would Fox have a move named after Wolf instead of "Diagonal Fox Illusion"? I mean, does Ness even have a move named after Lucas?
 

[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]

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Do we have proof that Wolf will absolutely appear in Star Fox Wii U or is that just your wishful thinking?

I am honestly not confident with Wolf being in SSB4... why would Fox have a move named after Wolf instead of "Diagonal Fox Illusion"? I mean, does Ness even have a move named after Lucas?
From,http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/06/e3_2014_three_different_modes_detailed_for_star_fox_wii_u
"The first, called Arwing, is classic Star Fox, and consists of an open-sky dogfight against many enemies; you can also land and transform into a tank. The second mode, Vs Wolf, is similar, but pits players against series rival Wolf O'Donnell, flying a similar ship to yours. The third, called City, put you in a helicopter flying over an urban landscape, with the GamePad screen showing a top-down view of what's below."
Also Fox flash would be the ideal name for it, and Luigi has a custom that gives him Mario's fireball.
 

Arcadenik

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Arcadenik
Thanks for the source. Good to know Wolf will be in that game.

Yeah but Luigi doesn't get a move called "Mario's Fireball". It is called "Bouncing Fireball".
 
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