Character Discussion Thread

[CatRaccoonBL]

Well there's your problem already, Rosalina is basically the ruler of the Lumas in the Galaxy games which makes sense why she's commanding her own Luma in the game, but Bandanna Dee doesn't command the enemies to attack, Dee only follows Dedede's order to attack. That doesn't fit him really naturally

Rosalina isn't the ruler of the lumas. She's the mother of them. If anything, her using them to fight goes against that.

Edit: Granted, I guess it could go either way.

That doesn't stop the fact that he probably could if he wanted to. Like I said before, it would only involve his neutral special. All his other attacks will involve the spear/parasol. It would just be one move.

Well, if Bandanna Dee absolutely have to summon enemies... give him Dedede's old Final Smash from Brawl... just so the rest of his moveset can be all about the spear.

I was think more of the lines of Landia as a homage to the shooter stages in Kirby.

 

[aldelaro5]

So, I don't know if you read my post I linked above, but I know at least it got 3 likes (2 that I know are given, but thanks @ BluePikmin11 for the last one).

I'm honestly just sad that now, I saw talks of a character that has no potential where I honestly don't think it's the case and I don't even care of that character appearence (bandanna dee), but when I care and that I know why a character is seen as potentialess, then I go into heavy frustration mode.

Did we just got back 2 days ago? I really don't want to see in a month...

I just want that please, could just forget those arguments I judge "dumb" because really, they were, they are, and they become even more as time passes.

If you have trouble to get this, it's really because you don't accept that people like other things than you. Really, I could list for pages characters I simply do not care and I really have no reason to jump to conclusion because I decided to not care so IT'S INVALID TO CLAIM NOT WORTHY IF IT HAS NO VALUE FOR ME ONLY!!!

Now, the reason I linked this essay here in the general character thread is simple: I'm sure I'm not alne that lived this because those kind of stuff affects THE WHOLE SUPPORTS ENJOYEMENT. If people enjoy supporting bandana then they should just do that. What I see that I found really sad is that they unfortunately can't do that fully because of this environment.

The same goes for everyone.

At this point, I'm really not feeling Paper Mario. We already have enough Mario characters and with Paper Mario, he would be our third Mario in the roster. Along with that, I feel like Paper Mario isn't popular enough to be considered a DLC priority (for example, if no one wanted Mewtwo, I can guarantee he wouldn't be DLC), along with the fact that other franchises are desperately under represented ().

I feel like Bandana Dee could go either way. On one hand, if Kirby were to get a new rep, it would most likely be him, but I have my doubts about him as well. Meh.

this post is partially restating what I said (some points are valid).

It's ok to not feel he's going to be in. Chances shouldn't matter on support so, it shouldn't touch your want (ever, or you don't know what you want).

but we already have enough...I don't seriously think you read the essay so, let me directly quote the part relevant to this:

1. People tough that 4 mario rep were ENOUGH. They jumped to the conclusion that a fifth rep WASN'T NEEDED.
2. A fifth rep is announce, people cry because of the above. So, they finally accept it, but don't think that a six rep is in the realm of possibility with the "uneeded" fifth one
3. Of course, supports for other character because of this "irrelevant" mindset goes down, exciting right? Tough, it wasn't that high so, ACCEPTABLE but not good...
4. We see 2 new rep in a roster leak so, people really starts to HATE THEM for the same reason back of the announcement of the fifth one.
5. Because of this, one of them, by being WEAKLY pertinent to Paper Mario got FLAMED heavy by at least 5 different people back where the video were leaked. I want to mention that he has NOTHING to do with him as HE"S STILL FREAKING DIFFERENT FROM HIM!!!
6. People accepted bowser jr as he "looked" different, but dr mario still got flamed for the same reason and because of this FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON, PAPER MARIO GOT LABELLED AS A DR MARIO SITUATION COPYCAT, POTENTIALLESS SEMI CLONE THAT REALLY SHOULD NEVER TOUCH THE ROSTER IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!

So, even if you think 7 is enough, even if 15 for you is enough, it will never matter because, let me do a very imaginative logic and demonstrate what this mindset of "needed" would imply:

First, only the numbers matters. The numbers will not take care of the identity of the characters, the roster is mere numbers categorised.

Let's say that c falcon wasn't even considered and let's say that balck shadow is playable and that let's assume no one had problems with him (I know normally, it would seem a bit weird, but forget about those because it's not what I want to show).

So, he has a good and unique moveset and most appreciates that. Now, let's say that a new smash game was releasing and c falcon started on speculation, you can be guaranted there's going to be salt because of the only fact of being the second rep that people would think it only needs one.

But what if his moveset is one the we have now? Today, he's really appreciated because of his uniqueness and tough put into him so, if my fictive situation was the truth, is that good to think like that?

C falcon would have gotten an "overrepping" labelled on him and so, he would get ignored while we know how much he could bring because we're having him now.

I know a guy named @ Kevandre , he is sceptical on Paper Mario, but he still wants him along with Ivysaur who got cut. Now, we have for pokemon:

pickachu
jigglypuff
lucario
greninja
charizard

Now, you add mewtwo. In the "need rep" logic, you forgot all the names and the characters and you would only count the amount which is 7.

So, @ Kevandre , acording to this logic, you only want an 8th rep for pokemon. You don't want Ivysaur, but just an 8th rep, that'sonly what we care if we use this logic.

If we consider 8 too high...

You would have no reason to hope despite anything, no it's absolute, you should now hat Ivysaur...

If you felt weird while readin this, it's because this logci is implying that at a certain amount that is btw not even objective, we should start to hope for any character that means the roster would be locked forever of new ideas as we want a consistent and pure roster...

The problem is that you'll get bored pretty quickly if it's just that. Like, remove rosalina...I'm sure there's going to be legit salt appearing. Same goes for dr mario, it doesn;t change that every character has a fanbase.

This logic however, really tries to ditch this concept has you wouldn't even care of destroying a fanbase and the problem with this logic is that it applies to popular picks and it's used only in the unpopular ones!

If you consider 8 mario rep too high, then I'm sorry, but that applies to all 8 meaning you do included the 4 we had at the beginning.

To illustrate this: You're saying that the GROUP of the mario is too high meaning that you're not saying that mario should stay, you say that the group should be restrained.

And the problem with this is that you imply not just the roster and that's why this is the most flawed logic I saw.

The global repping, the logic I use, is better suited for several reason. First, the amount has a very minimal consideration. They are only to evaluate the quantity, but the thing is, a high quantity repping isn't enough to tell it's a good repping. I could have 100 music and they would only be one series...it's high, but it repeats the repping a bit too much. So, the second criteria you check that has quite good importance is the diversity. This one is considering the quantity, is it spread or too centered. In ssbb, the problem with the global repping was that it was the later for kirby which leads to several inconsistency in the most important and last criteria ANYONE should consider: the broadness.

And that's a thing the amount of rep logic doesn't even care. What I mean by this is that you don't evaluate this in specific part, but you do for the whole game hence the word global. You can do this with several method like trying to find the most obvious vs the most obsure/deep refference, the middle and such like counting how much series, how those series are repped etc...

I can tell you right now that this game is crazy on this criteria. I really find stuff that mind blown. more than 437 music where there's several I see that aren't even main series, some really reference new stuff or others reference long kept memories. The prince of sable trophies shows you how broad it got and smash run is the best example.

But why exactly it matters more to check this globally than just the roster framed?

It's because remember that the game has a repping centered on everything surrounding those characters. If a character is in, it doesn't just imply him. That's what is forgotten because by adding a character, you have to increase the broadness of the repping or the repping itself will feel inconsistent. It's just logic.

Here, it;s like you assume only adding +1 to the amount of characters will make too much characters...that's unfortunately wrong because the thing is, it's clear that the game wanted to get a broader repping enough to warrant the 7 rep. People tough 4 was needed, but with how much it increased, removing rosalina means removing a lot of stuff from her, you could get a lot lost like music, trophies and maybe even her stages. A character on the roster is never going to be just him playable.

So, you have to view this in the angle that there's never a cap. It's sort of like proportions. Adding Paper Mario playable will make the repping unstable, but the thing is, what you do is you add the elements surrounding him and so far, a stage and a music (one other is likely btw) is present menaing that you increased the mario repping by 1, but also the roster and you even made the rest enough.

I'm really going to be honest, you want 4 mario rep, That's really the only way to see it. that means any jr, dr and rosalina fans shouldn;t exist, because their inclusion wasn't needed.

Do you want that I continue? I'm seriously shocked that people implies stuff like this...

popularity here is ironic, because of those arguments, I can;t do anything...but anyway, it only helps the support scale...and it still shouldn't touch your want either way...

underreping btw is again, you only consider the roster...

and he can be priority because of the repping he got, but you again, only check the amount in the roster.

Like, this is those kind of post that really, I question the support environment heavily here...

 

[The Light Music Club]

See as a Paper Mario fan (The original is #3 on my fave games of all time), I find no need for 3 Marios. Sure I agree, he would be completely different, but having 3 characters with the name Mario in them? It doesn't sit right with me, especially since Mario has Seven Reps, and Starfox, Earthbound, and Ice Climber all lost one. (Sure you can argue Pokemon will now have seven, but they are bringing back a lost character just like they need to do with the three series I mentioned.)

Priority for DLC I would assume is

1. Finish Mewtwo and Ice Climbers (and Wolf if he was started)
2. If wanting to do more bring back other Brawl characters planned but not worked on (Maybe Wolf, Lucas, Snake, etc)
3. Start pumping out the popular characters (King K, Isaac)

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I think we're severely underestimating Excitebiker. The whole vehicle argument is out the window now with Bowser Jr. and Excitebiker is one of the few remaining truly iconic Nintendo retros. (Outside of Ice Climbers)

If dlc gets a retro "WTF" I could absolutely see it being Excitebiker. It serves the purpose of being marketable because of it's iconic status, but it's also an "out there" choice.

 

[The Light Music Club]

I think we're severely underestimating Excitebiker. The whole vehicle argument is out the window now with Bowser Jr. and Excitebiker is one of the few remaining truly iconic Nintendo retros. (Outside of Ice Climbers)

If dlc gets a retro "WTF" I could absolutely see it being Excitebiker.

Was it Excitebiker or Mach Rider Sakurai originally had in mind? And I don't think Bowser Jr. helps him. The problem with the biker is that he couldn't jump, but Bowser Jr.'s Clown Cart can fly on its own.

 

[NeonBurrito]

So, I don't know if you read my post I linked above, but I know at least it got 3 likes (2 that I know are given, but thanks @ BluePikmin11 for the last one).

I'm honestly just sad that now, I saw talks of a character that has no potential where I honestly don't think it's the case and I don't even care of that character appearence (bandanna dee), but when I care and that I know why a character is seen as potentialess, then I go into heavy frustration mode.

Did we just got back 2 days ago? I really don't want to see in a month...

I just want that please, could just forget those arguments I judge "dumb" because really, they were, they are, and they become even more as time passes.

If you have trouble to get this, it's really because you don't accept that people like other things than you. Really, I could list for pages characters I simply do not care and I really have no reason to jump to conclusion because I decided to not care so IT'S INVALID TO CLAIM NOT WORTHY IF IT HAS NO VALUE FOR ME ONLY!!!

Now, the reason I linked this essay here in the general character thread is simple: I'm sure I'm not alne that lived this because those kind of stuff affects THE WHOLE SUPPORTS ENJOYEMENT. If people enjoy supporting bandana then they should just do that. What I see that I found really sad is that they unfortunately can't do that fully because of this environment.

The same goes for everyone.


this post is partially restating what I said (some points are valid).

It's ok to not feel he's going to be in. Chances shouldn't matter on support so, it shouldn't touch your want (ever, or you don't know what you want).

but we already have enough...I don't seriously think you read the essay so, let me directly quote the part relevant to this:

1. People tough that 4 mario rep were ENOUGH. They jumped to the conclusion that a fifth rep WASN'T NEEDED.
2. A fifth rep is announce, people cry because of the above. So, they finally accept it, but don't think that a six rep is in the realm of possibility with the "uneeded" fifth one
3. Of course, supports for other character because of this "irrelevant" mindset goes down, exciting right? Tough, it wasn't that high so, ACCEPTABLE but not good...
4. We see 2 new rep in a roster leak so, people really starts to HATE THEM for the same reason back of the announcement of the fifth one.
5. Because of this, one of them, by being WEAKLY pertinent to Paper Mario got FLAMED heavy by at least 5 different people back where the video were leaked. I want to mention that he has NOTHING to do with him as HE"S STILL FREAKING DIFFERENT FROM HIM!!!
6. People accepted bowser jr as he "looked" different, but dr mario still got flamed for the same reason and because of this FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON, PAPER MARIO GOT LABELLED AS A DR MARIO SITUATION COPYCAT, POTENTIALLESS SEMI CLONE THAT REALLY SHOULD NEVER TOUCH THE ROSTER IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!

So, even if you think 7 is enough, even if 15 for you is enough, it will never matter because, let me do a very imaginative logic and demonstrate what this mindset of "needed" would imply:

First, only the numbers matters. The numbers will not take care of the identity of the characters, the roster is mere numbers categorised.

Let's say that c falcon wasn't even considered and let's say that balck shadow is playable and that let's assume no one had problems with him (I know normally, it would seem a bit weird, but forget about those because it's not what I want to show).

So, he has a good and unique moveset and most appreciates that. Now, let's say that a new smash game was releasing and c falcon started on speculation, you can be guaranted there's going to be salt because of the only fact of being the second rep that people would think it only needs one.

But what if his moveset is one the we have now? Today, he's really appreciated because of his uniqueness and tough put into him so, if my fictive situation was the truth, is that good to think like that?

C falcon would have gotten an "overrepping" labelled on him and so, he would get ignored while we know how much he could bring because we're having him now.

I know a guy named @ Kevandre , he is sceptical on Paper Mario, but he still wants him along with Ivysaur who got cut. Now, we have for pokemon:

pickachu
jigglypuff
lucario
greninja
charizard

Now, you add mewtwo. In the "need rep" logic, you forgot all the names and the characters and you would only count the amount which is 7.

So, @ Kevandre , acording to this logic, you only want an 8th rep for pokemon. You don't want Ivysaur, but just an 8th rep, that'sonly what we care if we use this logic.

If we consider 8 too high...

You would have no reason to hope despite anything, no it's absolute, you should now hat Ivysaur...

If you felt weird while readin this, it's because this logci is implying that at a certain amount that is btw not even objective, we should start to hope for any character that means the roster would be locked forever of new ideas as we want a consistent and pure roster...

The problem is that you'll get bored pretty quickly if it's just that. Like, remove rosalina...I'm sure there's going to be legit salt appearing. Same goes for dr mario, it doesn;t change that every character has a fanbase.

This logic however, really tries to ditch this concept has you wouldn't even care of destroying a fanbase and the problem with this logic is that it applies to popular picks and it's used only in the unpopular ones!

If you consider 8 mario rep too high, then I'm sorry, but that applies to all 8 meaning you do included the 4 we had at the beginning.

To illustrate this: You're saying that the GROUP of the mario is too high meaning that you're not saying that mario should stay, you say that the group should be restrained.

And the problem with this is that you imply not just the roster and that's why this is the most flawed logic I saw.

The global repping, the logic I use, is better suited for several reason. First, the amount has a very minimal consideration. They are only to evaluate the quantity, but the thing is, a high quantity repping isn't enough to tell it's a good repping. I could have 100 music and they would only be one series...it's high, but it repeats the repping a bit too much. So, the second criteria you check that has quite good importance is the diversity. This one is considering the quantity, is it spread or too centered. In ssbb, the problem with the global repping was that it was the later for kirby which leads to several inconsistency in the most important and last criteria ANYONE should consider: the broadness.

And that's a thing the amount of rep logic doesn't even care. What I mean by this is that you don't evaluate this in specific part, but you do for the whole game hence the word global. You can do this with several method like trying to find the most obvious vs the most obsure/deep refference, the middle and such like counting how much series, how those series are repped etc...

I can tell you right now that this game is crazy on this criteria. I really find stuff that mind blown. more than 437 music where there's several I see that aren't even main series, some really reference new stuff or others reference long kept memories. The prince of sable trophies shows you how broad it got and smash run is the best example.

But why exactly it matters more to check this globally than just the roster framed?

It's because remember that the game has a repping centered on everything surrounding those characters. If a character is in, it doesn't just imply him. That's what is forgotten because by adding a character, you have to increase the broadness of the repping or the repping itself will feel inconsistent. It's just logic.

Here, it;s like you assume only adding +1 to the amount of characters will make too much characters...that's unfortunately wrong because the thing is, it's clear that the game wanted to get a broader repping enough to warrant the 7 rep. People tough 4 was needed, but with how much it increased, removing rosalina means removing a lot of stuff from her, you could get a lot lost like music, trophies and maybe even her stages. A character on the roster is never going to be just him playable.

So, you have to view this in the angle that there's never a cap. It's sort of like proportions. Adding Paper Mario playable will make the repping unstable, but the thing is, what you do is you add the elements surrounding him and so far, a stage and a music (one other is likely btw) is present menaing that you increased the mario repping by 1, but also the roster and you even made the rest enough.

I'm really going to be honest, you want 4 mario rep, That's really the only way to see it. that means any jr, dr and rosalina fans shouldn;t exist, because their inclusion wasn't needed.

Do you want that I continue? I'm seriously shocked that people implies stuff like this...

popularity here is ironic, because of those arguments, I can;t do anything...but anyway, it only helps the support scale...and it still shouldn't touch your want either way...

underreping btw is again, you only consider the roster...

and he can be priority because of the repping he got, but you again, only check the amount in the roster.

Like, this is those kind of post that really, I question the support environment heavily here...

I'm really confused about what you said, but I'll try to respond accordingly.

First of all, I'm just some idiot on the internet. My own opinions aren't going to mean jack to Sakurai. Heck, in Smash 5, we might have half of the roster be Mario characters for all we know.

Second, I think Bowser Jr. and Rosalina are deserving additions to the roster. They both are really unique characters, and I think Paper Mario would be a very unique character as well.

However, the reasons I don't really want Paper Mario in is because we already have 7 (or 9 / or 11 depending if you count Yoshi, Wario, Donkey Kong, and Diddy Kong) out of 49, which is a lot of characters already. Adding one more newcomer to already three newcomers would make many, including myself, upset, as Mario would have gotten three newcomers this game, whereas franchises that have had at least somewhat recent success (Zelda, DK, Kirby) have gotten none.

Also, here's a fun fact. The only franchises to have existed in previous Smash games to gain newcomers are Mario, Fire Emblem, Pokemon, and Kid Icarus, gaining two each, with the exception of . (, , )

 

[SmashChu]

So we're doing this again I see.

SO, DLC has been kind of expected for some time. I remember the post where Sakurai said he could add Tips via updates. It seemed really weird to do that. Why have staff working just to make tips? Seems very odd. Plus, multiple times in the direct they said there was things that wouldn't be ready at launch.

So what that makes me think is that there is more going on than Mewtwo. It makes sense as I doubt they would take 4 months or so to make a character when they did 45 or so in 2 and a half years. What I'm saying is that it seems like they are working on a bit more post release content based on how they have been talking. What or how much is anyone's guess, but I doubt it's a major mode or anything. Maybe I'll talk about actually characters another time.

 

[Substitution]

SO, DLC has been kind of expected for some time. I remember the post where Sakurai said he could add Tips via updates. It seemed really weird to do that.

I would assume to help those unfamiliar with the DLC characters.

 

[SmashChu]

I would assume to help those unfamiliar with the DLC characters.

More what I'm saying is it's weird to do updates JUST to post more tips. This is before Mewtwo was announced mind you.

Basically, I'm saying that perhaps the team is working on a bit more than what they talked about. It would make sense why it would take 4 months JUST to make Mewtwo. For comparison, this game was in development for, say, 35 months (March 2012 to November 2014). There are 45 characters. So a character would take 0.7 months if you worked on one and started another. Now, there may be less staff working on this game, but I expect that they are working on more content than Mewtwo since there is a great opportunity to make a profit.

 

[Substitution]

More what I'm saying is it's weird to do updates JUST to post more tips. This is before Mewtwo was announced mind you.

Ah.

Well in that case, I would assume then to remain fresh and current. That, or batch 'em up with the new content.

Basically, I'm saying that perhaps the team is working on a bit more than what they talked about. It would make sense why it would take 4 months JUST to make Mewtwo. For comparison, this game was in development for, say, 35 months (March 2012 to November 2014). There are 45 characters. So a character would take 0.7 months if you worked on one and started another. Now, there may be less staff working on this game, but I expect that they are working on more content than Mewtwo since there is a great opportunity to make a profit.

Well judging by the clues within the Miiverse stage, it's possible.

 

[Mr.X98]

Oh this Thread is back up!

(I'ma Slowpoke...)

Either way, here's to the DLC announcement and hope for future (and cheap...) DLC expansions in the future!

 

[Kevandre]

So, I don't know if you read my post I linked above, but I know at least it got 3 likes (2 that I know are given, but thanks @ BluePikmin11 for the last one).

I'm honestly just sad that now, I saw talks of a character that has no potential where I honestly don't think it's the case and I don't even care of that character appearence (bandanna dee), but when I care and that I know why a character is seen as potentialess, then I go into heavy frustration mode.

Did we just got back 2 days ago? I really don't want to see in a month...

I just want that please, could just forget those arguments I judge "dumb" because really, they were, they are, and they become even more as time passes.

If you have trouble to get this, it's really because you don't accept that people like other things than you. Really, I could list for pages characters I simply do not care and I really have no reason to jump to conclusion because I decided to not care so IT'S INVALID TO CLAIM NOT WORTHY IF IT HAS NO VALUE FOR ME ONLY!!!

Now, the reason I linked this essay here in the general character thread is simple: I'm sure I'm not alne that lived this because those kind of stuff affects THE WHOLE SUPPORTS ENJOYEMENT. If people enjoy supporting bandana then they should just do that. What I see that I found really sad is that they unfortunately can't do that fully because of this environment.

The same goes for everyone.


this post is partially restating what I said (some points are valid).

It's ok to not feel he's going to be in. Chances shouldn't matter on support so, it shouldn't touch your want (ever, or you don't know what you want).

but we already have enough...I don't seriously think you read the essay so, let me directly quote the part relevant to this:

1. People tough that 4 mario rep were ENOUGH. They jumped to the conclusion that a fifth rep WASN'T NEEDED.
2. A fifth rep is announce, people cry because of the above. So, they finally accept it, but don't think that a six rep is in the realm of possibility with the "uneeded" fifth one
3. Of course, supports for other character because of this "irrelevant" mindset goes down, exciting right? Tough, it wasn't that high so, ACCEPTABLE but not good...
4. We see 2 new rep in a roster leak so, people really starts to HATE THEM for the same reason back of the announcement of the fifth one.
5. Because of this, one of them, by being WEAKLY pertinent to Paper Mario got FLAMED heavy by at least 5 different people back where the video were leaked. I want to mention that he has NOTHING to do with him as HE"S STILL FREAKING DIFFERENT FROM HIM!!!
6. People accepted bowser jr as he "looked" different, but dr mario still got flamed for the same reason and because of this FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON, PAPER MARIO GOT LABELLED AS A DR MARIO SITUATION COPYCAT, POTENTIALLESS SEMI CLONE THAT REALLY SHOULD NEVER TOUCH THE ROSTER IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!

So, even if you think 7 is enough, even if 15 for you is enough, it will never matter because, let me do a very imaginative logic and demonstrate what this mindset of "needed" would imply:

First, only the numbers matters. The numbers will not take care of the identity of the characters, the roster is mere numbers categorised.

Let's say that c falcon wasn't even considered and let's say that balck shadow is playable and that let's assume no one had problems with him (I know normally, it would seem a bit weird, but forget about those because it's not what I want to show).

So, he has a good and unique moveset and most appreciates that. Now, let's say that a new smash game was releasing and c falcon started on speculation, you can be guaranted there's going to be salt because of the only fact of being the second rep that people would think it only needs one.

But what if his moveset is one the we have now? Today, he's really appreciated because of his uniqueness and tough put into him so, if my fictive situation was the truth, is that good to think like that?

C falcon would have gotten an "overrepping" labelled on him and so, he would get ignored while we know how much he could bring because we're having him now.

I know a guy named @ Kevandre , he is sceptical on Paper Mario, but he still wants him along with Ivysaur who got cut. Now, we have for pokemon:

pickachu
jigglypuff
lucario
greninja
charizard

Now, you add mewtwo. In the "need rep" logic, you forgot all the names and the characters and you would only count the amount which is 7.

So, @ Kevandre , acording to this logic, you only want an 8th rep for pokemon. You don't want Ivysaur, but just an 8th rep, that'sonly what we care if we use this logic.

If we consider 8 too high...

You would have no reason to hope despite anything, no it's absolute, you should now hat Ivysaur...

If you felt weird while readin this, it's because this logci is implying that at a certain amount that is btw not even objective, we should start to hope for any character that means the roster would be locked forever of new ideas as we want a consistent and pure roster...

The problem is that you'll get bored pretty quickly if it's just that. Like, remove rosalina...I'm sure there's going to be legit salt appearing. Same goes for dr mario, it doesn;t change that every character has a fanbase.

This logic however, really tries to ditch this concept has you wouldn't even care of destroying a fanbase and the problem with this logic is that it applies to popular picks and it's used only in the unpopular ones!

If you consider 8 mario rep too high, then I'm sorry, but that applies to all 8 meaning you do included the 4 we had at the beginning.

To illustrate this: You're saying that the GROUP of the mario is too high meaning that you're not saying that mario should stay, you say that the group should be restrained.

And the problem with this is that you imply not just the roster and that's why this is the most flawed logic I saw.

The global repping, the logic I use, is better suited for several reason. First, the amount has a very minimal consideration. They are only to evaluate the quantity, but the thing is, a high quantity repping isn't enough to tell it's a good repping. I could have 100 music and they would only be one series...it's high, but it repeats the repping a bit too much. So, the second criteria you check that has quite good importance is the diversity. This one is considering the quantity, is it spread or too centered. In ssbb, the problem with the global repping was that it was the later for kirby which leads to several inconsistency in the most important and last criteria ANYONE should consider: the broadness.

And that's a thing the amount of rep logic doesn't even care. What I mean by this is that you don't evaluate this in specific part, but you do for the whole game hence the word global. You can do this with several method like trying to find the most obvious vs the most obsure/deep refference, the middle and such like counting how much series, how those series are repped etc...

I can tell you right now that this game is crazy on this criteria. I really find stuff that mind blown. more than 437 music where there's several I see that aren't even main series, some really reference new stuff or others reference long kept memories. The prince of sable trophies shows you how broad it got and smash run is the best example.

But why exactly it matters more to check this globally than just the roster framed?

It's because remember that the game has a repping centered on everything surrounding those characters. If a character is in, it doesn't just imply him. That's what is forgotten because by adding a character, you have to increase the broadness of the repping or the repping itself will feel inconsistent. It's just logic.

Here, it;s like you assume only adding +1 to the amount of characters will make too much characters...that's unfortunately wrong because the thing is, it's clear that the game wanted to get a broader repping enough to warrant the 7 rep. People tough 4 was needed, but with how much it increased, removing rosalina means removing a lot of stuff from her, you could get a lot lost like music, trophies and maybe even her stages. A character on the roster is never going to be just him playable.

So, you have to view this in the angle that there's never a cap. It's sort of like proportions. Adding Paper Mario playable will make the repping unstable, but the thing is, what you do is you add the elements surrounding him and so far, a stage and a music (one other is likely btw) is present menaing that you increased the mario repping by 1, but also the roster and you even made the rest enough.

I'm really going to be honest, you want 4 mario rep, That's really the only way to see it. that means any jr, dr and rosalina fans shouldn;t exist, because their inclusion wasn't needed.

Do you want that I continue? I'm seriously shocked that people implies stuff like this...

popularity here is ironic, because of those arguments, I can;t do anything...but anyway, it only helps the support scale...and it still shouldn't touch your want either way...

underreping btw is again, you only consider the roster...

and he can be priority because of the repping he got, but you again, only check the amount in the roster.

Like, this is those kind of post that really, I question the support environment heavily here...

You are right for the most part. I don't necessarily want another Pokemon rep at all. Mewtwo's addition impacts me pretty minimally, aside from DLC confirmation. It's specific characters. Overrepresentation is a fabricated notion created by fans because they see some kind of pattern.

In Paper Mario's case, though, I'd almost say that he deserves his own franchise icon. If Yoshi gets one, then certainly. I'd even say that he wouldn't just be representing the Paper Mario games either, he could represent the Mario RPGs as a whole. Maybe his hammer has a few moves from the Mario & Luigi games. Maybe his Final Smash calls in Mallo and Geno. Just ideas. That shouldn't even be considered to be in the same franchise as the regular Mario characters at all.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Rosalina isn't the ruler of the lumas. She's the mother of them. If anything, her using them to fight goes against that.

Edit: Granted, I guess it could go either way.

That doesn't stop the fact that he probably could if he wanted to. Like I said before, it would only involve his neutral special. All his other attacks will involve the spear/parasol. It would just be one move.=.

I'd find it unlikely that Sakurai will make Dee a summoning character, as it's still unfitting for the character. If it doesn't stay true or fit well to the character, the summoning playstyle is probably not going to happen.

 

[Substitution]

I'd find it unlikely that Sakurai will make Dee a summoning character, as it's still unfitting for the character. If it doesn't stay true or fit well to the character, the summoning playstyle is probably not going to happen.

However, the idea of using the parasol and other items the Waddle Dee family have used is a neat idea, and it does bring more to the table.

 

[BluePikmin11]

However, the idea of using the parasol and other items the Waddle Dee family have used is a neat idea, and it does bring more to the table.

What would the parasol do specifically, reflect projectiles? And what other items specifically?

 

[TheNerdyOne_]

Was it Excitebiker or Mach Rider Sakurai originally had in mind? And I don't think Bowser Jr. helps him. The problem with the biker is that he couldn't jump, but Bowser Jr.'s Clown Cart can fly on its own.

It was Excitebiker, alongside Bubbles, Urban Champion, and Balloon Fighter. You can still read the original write-up Sakurai did saying that on the Melee website (I did just a month or two ago), but I forget exactly how. If I find anything I'll link it.

I agree that Bowser Jr. doesn't help him a ton, and that the original reason for Sakurai not including him was because he didn't want to have to install ramps on every stage. However, Excitebiker can easily jump using a bit of creativity. It's not like double-jumping makes sense in the first place, all Sakurai would have to do is attach a spring between the back wheel and the rest of the cycle, allowing the back wheel to push against the ground and use that to get him in the air.

I have to agree that many underestimate Excitebike. Assuming he isn't a Wii U-exclusive AT, I think he has a moderate chance of being included in DLC.

 

[Arcadenik]

Was it Excitebiker or Mach Rider Sakurai originally had in mind? And I don't think Bowser Jr. helps him. The problem with the biker is that he couldn't jump, but Bowser Jr.'s Clown Cart can fly on its own.

Interesting theory... I also had a theory that Duck Hunt Dog got in because Sakurai originally considered Nintendog for Brawl but decided that Nintendog was implausible (why? was it because it's a real life puppy and not a cartoon dog like DHD?).

Oh, and it was Excitebiker. Sakurai mentioned Excitebiker, Balloon Fighter, Urban Champion, and Bubbles from Clu Clu Land.

Mach Rider is often brought up because Sakurai once claimed that Mach Rider was his favorite character or something.

Hmmm... it's interesting to note that Excitebiker got in SSB4 via Wario's Side+B and Bowser Jr's vehicle-based gameplay... Balloon Fighter got in SSB4 via Villager's Up+B... Urban Champion got in SSB4 via Little Mac's nothing-but-punches gameplay... ironically Ice Climbers' only gimmick got them in Melee and Brawl in the first place is the reason they aren't in SSB4.

 

[N3ON]

I think we'd probably get Mach Rider over Excitebiker.

 

[Substitution]

What would the parasol do specifically, reflect projectiles? And what other items specifically?

Let's start with the parasol. For now, let's consider it a hypothetical Side Special. The attack is as simple as it gets, Bandanna Dee pulls out a Parasol. The attack itself is rather weak: doing okay damage but little knockback (kinda like how it is in the games).
Now in terms of effects, an idea to consider is not a reflector, but an absorber. And much like the Kirby games, you can keep it out for an extended amount of time, allowing you to get multiple strikes on your foe(s).

In terms of other items (or, powers and such) to use. One to take into consideration is the multiple forms Waddle Dee has had over the years. Such as Giant Waddle Dee (for a Final Smash), the food/coconuts they use in Mass Attack, perhaps some of the weapons used in Epic Yarn (balloons as a customized Up Special, or snowballs for a custom Neutral Special).

Heck, maybe pull a Ness and give him elements from the Waddle Doo family.

Unless I see a new notable Excitebike game (His last game came on Wiiware, but barely anyone remembers it) , I wouldn't put much stock into Excitebiker's chances at all.

I think they are extremely minimal IMO.

What about the 3DS port?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Unless I see a new notable Excitebike game (His last game came on Wiiware, but barely anyone remembers it) , I wouldn't put much stock into Excitebiker's chances at all.

I think they are extremely minimal IMO.

Let's start with the parasol. For now, let's consider it a hypothetical Side Special. The attack is as simple as it gets, Bandanna Dee pulls out a Parasol. The attack itself is rather weak: doing okay damage but little knockback (kinda like how it is in the games).
Now in terms of effects, an idea to consider is not a reflector, but an absorber. And much like the Kirby games, you can keep it out for an extended amount of time, allowing you to get multiple strikes on your foe(s).

But isn't the parasol mainly used for reflecting in the Kirby games? Maybe it was the Reflect ability I'm recalling.

In terms of other items (or, powers and such) to use. One to take into consideration is the multiple forms Waddle Dee has had over the years. Such as Giant Waddle Dee (for a Final Smash), the food/coconuts they use in Mass Attack, perhaps some of the weapons used in Epic Yarn (balloons as a customized Up Special, or snowballs for a custom Neutral Special).

Heck, maybe pull a Ness and give him elements from the Waddle Doo family.

Aside from the FS idea, just adding items to a character for no particular fitting reason is pushing it for me, in a way, it's kind of similar how many Toad fans try to make Toad unique by giving him the POW Block or the Ice Flower out of nowhere.

 

[TheNerdyOne_]

Unless I see a new notable Excitebike game (His last game came on Wiiware, but barely anyone remembers it) , I wouldn't put much stock into Excitebiker's chances at all.

Remember that Excitebiker would be a retro newcomer, whether they have any new games or not doesn't effect their chances.

The biggest obstacle for Excitebiker fans is whether he'll be an AT in the Wii U version or not.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I personally don't see him as a retro for the same reasons Lip is not a retro because she had games coming out the past few years.

 

[Substitution]

But isn't the parasol mainly used for reflecting in the Kirby games? Maybe it was the Reflect ability I'm recalling.

If I recall correctly, it does not reflect.
I believe you might be referring to the Mirror ability, as that one reflected.

Aside from the FS idea, just adding items to a character for no particular fitting reason is pushing it for me, in a way, it's kind of similar how many Toad fans try to make Toad unique by giving him the POW Block or the Ice Flower out of nowhere.

But in this case it's not exactly out of nowhere. As Waddle Dees have used them in the past. Can some be considered "pushing it"? Sure. But it's not completely illogical.

 

[TheNerdyOne_]

I personally don't see him as a retro for the same reasons Lip is not a retro because she had games coming out the past few years.

Eh, to me one WiiWare game that was really more of a remake isn't enough to strip retro status. When he gets an actual original game, then I would say that counts.

 

[The Light Music Club]

It was Excitebiker, alongside Bubbles, Urban Champion, and Balloon Fighter. You can still read the original write-up Sakurai did saying that on the Melee website (I did just a month or two ago), but I forget exactly how. If I find anything I'll link it.

I agree that Bowser Jr. doesn't help him a ton, and that the original reason for Sakurai not including him was because he didn't want to have to install ramps on every stage. However, Excitebiker can easily jump using a bit of creativity. It's not like double-jumping makes sense in the first place, all Sakurai would have to do is attach a spring between the back wheel and the rest of the cycle, allowing the back wheel to push against the ground and use that to get him in the air.

I have to agree that many underestimate Excitebike. Assuming he isn't a Wii U-exclusive AT, I think he has a moderate chance of being included in DLC.

Yeah, imagine how much different melee would have been had Excitebiker been in the game. That'd be really strange.

At this point I'm really just hoping for Wolf and Ice Climbers now. Anyone else (especially King K or another Fire Emblem character) would be a bonus.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Eh, to me one WiiWare game that was really more of a remake isn't enough to strip retro status. When he gets an actual original game, then I would say that counts.

Punch-Out was also more of a remake of the past PO games, only he's gotten playable over Excitebike. I say it counts.

What about the 3DS port?

It doesn't really count if I had to be honest, those are just re-releases of the same game after all, they don't add enough to justify it as a new game for the franchise.

But in this case it's not exactly out of nowhere. As Waddle Dees have used them in the past. Can some be considered "pushing it"? Sure. But it's not completely illogical.

It's not completely illogical, but it's really unlikely.
Mario did use a tennis racket and Squirrel, does it suddenly mean it will be considered for his moveset? A probable no.

 

[Substitution]

It doesn't really count if I had to be honest, those are just re-releases of the same game after all, they don't add enough to justify it as a new game for the franchise.

But even then if people can use a Mother 3 VC release as a justification for Lucas to get in, why not Excitebiker?

 

[BluePikmin11]

But even then if people can use a Mother 3 VC release as a justification for Lucas to get in, why not Excitebiker?

That really doesn't have anything to do with Excitebiker's retro status TheNerdyOne_ is claiming.

 

[Substitution]

It's not completely illogical, but it's really unlikely.
Mario did use a tennis racket and Squirrel, does it suddenly mean it will be considered for his moveset? A probable no.

Maybe, but the parasol and Giant Waddle Dee do at least prove a possibility at variety.

Also, Peach already has the tennis racket.

That really doesn't have anything to do with Excitebiker's retro status TheNerdyOne_ is claiming.

That's because it does not.

 

[TheNerdyOne_]

Punch-Out was also more of a remake of the past PO games, only he's gotten playable over Excitebike. I say it counts.

I'm not sure how exactly Punch-Out ties into this, other than being in a sorta similar situation. Kinda confused about what you're trying to say here. Little Mac most likely got in mostly because he was quite popular in the West. The only character that's ever gotten in "over" Excitebiker is the Ice Climbers.

Regardless, I would classify Punch-Out as borderline retro, only because Punch-Out for Wii was a major title in comparison to a WiiWare game. Sakurai considered Excitebiker as a retro rep like the Ice Climbers during Melee's development even though Excitebike 64 had literally just been released a few months before development started, I don't see why he would change his mind because of a WiiWare game that was released a few years ago.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Regardless, I would classify Punch-Out as borderline retro, only because Punch-Out for Wii was a major title in comparison to a WiiWare game. Sakurai considered Excitebiker as a retro rep like the Ice Climbers during Melee's development even though Excitebike 64 had literally just been released a few months before development started, I don't see why he would change his mind because of a WiiWare game.

You have a good point, people do recognize him as a classic Nintendo character.
That makes my argument null I guess. :U
I still think he is pretty unlikely due to how difficult the moveset can be made with him mounted. And I'm really unsure how retros will be handled as DLC. It's best not to call Excitebiker's chances underestimated.

 

[Substitution]

Though, does anyone else think it could be possible that we'll get hats and outfits via DLC?

 

[TheNerdyOne_]

Though, does anyone else think it could be possible that we'll get hats and outfits via DLC?

I really hope so! We're missing a good futuristic-looking outfit for the gunner so I can have a good-looking Mii Force Mii.

 

[Broodlaw]

Though, does anyone else think it could be possible that we'll get hats and outfits via DLC?

Yeah I'd say its definitely possible, I wouldn't think that would take up a bunch of space in a DLC pack; I could see us getting 2 fighters, 3 stages and various accessories for the Miis and Stage Builder a pack for a total of 2 DLC packs in all.

 

[Deleted member]

Here's something for food of thoughts, what if they handled DLC characters like this?

As a hypothetical example, I'll use King K. Rool. Let's say that he does get in as DLC, but it's not just him on it. With him comes other content as well. Gankplank Galleon is added as a stage and for an Assist Trophy, we get Krusha. Then we can add music from the games he's from, such as his boss themes (I want his boss battle theme from DKC2 and DK64 in particular) and others as well such as Mad Jack's theme (seriously, it's awesome). We can also make DK's Animal Buddies an item, where the character breaks a crate open and finds an animal buddy to go along with it; animals such as Rambi, Squitter, and Winky can be selected (randomly) be used to attack opponents for a certain period of time.

It's one character, but it comes with a stage, an Assist Trophy, lots of music, and an item. I think this would justify a $5 price tag for a character and I'd certainly buy it if something like this was done.

 

[Substitution]

I don't know. I guess it's all right, but then again with that five bucks I could also easily purchase a game off the eShop for that.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I don't know if I can say one character plus extras is really worth the purchase (and for five bucks no less). Especially if I don't plan on maining them.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know. I guess it's all right, but then again with that five bucks I could also easily purchase a game off the eShop for that.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I don't know if I can say one character plus extras is really worth the purchase (and for five bucks no less). Especially if I don't plan on maining them.

Well if they do handle DLC characters/stages individually (which I have a feeling won't be the case barring Mewtwo's situation), I'd expect them to be priced at a range somewhere between $2-$3 individually considering how much work it takes to do them and one item/one AT to be about $1. With my proposition, while it does bring it up to $5 per character, it also includes a stage, lots of music, an Assist Trophy, and an item. All of this I feel would justify a price of $5.

Of course I feel as Smash 3DS & Wii U getting an update would be the best route to consider should the content and price be good enough to justify it, but if that doesn't happen, this is one thing worth considering. Knowing Nintendo and DLC, thought, they could exceed my idea of how DLC is handled.

 

[Substitution]

Well if they do handle DLC characters/stages individually (which I have a feeling won't be the case barring Mewtwo's situation), I'd expect them to be priced at a range somewhere between $2-$3 individually considering how much work it takes to do them and one item/one AT to be about $1. With my proposition, while it does bring it up to $5 per character, it also includes a stage, lots of music, an Assist Trophy, and an item. All of this I feel would justify a price of $5.

Of course I feel as Smash 3DS & Wii U getting an update would be the best route to consider should the content and price be good enough to justify it, but if that doesn't happen, this is one thing worth considering. Knowing Nintendo and DLC, thought, they could exceed my idea of how DLC is handled.

I guess. But what I'm getting at is really priorities. If DLC is offered, it needs to be a deal. I mean, would I want to spend real world money on a character I might never use (and really my only draw to getting it), a stage that holds my interests for a minute at most, music that will be on Youtube sooner or later, an AT that'll interest me once, and an item I'll probably never use. Or, a game off the eShop that will last me a while (or heck, possibly two games for that matter) and will most likely enjoy for some time.

Then again, this is all hypothetical in the end. Who knows what they'll do with this?

 

[TheNerdyOne_]

I highly doubt characters will be released individually, Mewtwo is the exception because of their unique situation as a free bonus character and overall popularity.

Like MrVideoGaming said, there's no reason for someone to buy a character that they don't plan on using, only the extremely popular characters are going to make Nintendo any reasonable amount of money. It makes a lot more sense to include multiple characters in larger DLC packs. That way Sakurai can add the characters he thinks are best without worrying whether that specific character will sell or not, as long as there are a few decently popular characters included (which there would be anyway) it should sell great!

 

[GunGunW]

I'll be honest; if there's a character that's DLC in Smash I'll probably buy them regardless if I like them or not.