Changes you would like to see for Little Mac

[jet56]

just two moves...still sucks, but whatev.
ik it would bump him up a ton, but when i mentioned it, i was thinking it would help most of the cast, not just mac in terms of offensive gameplay. the game just seems to benefit defensive play more than offensive.in not trying to be biased or anything.

 

[Zodiacx10]

i think what would be nice is if his tilts and throws had less end lag and also if d-tilt and up-tilt and down throw had less knock back scaling. these two things combined would make his combo game better and give him safer attacks against shields. also make his grab better pls

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Something really simple I'd like to see would just be his jab working like most cast members and only going into rapid jab on repeated inputs. Being able to just hold a button to do the three-hit string seems more convenient, especially where his rapid jab is rarely a good option.

 

[Splash Damage]

Mac's rapid jab is often better than his gentlemen due mainly to the high damage output, though your point still stands:The gentlemen should still be an easily usable option.

Giving his tilts less endlag is a bit...much I'd say, especially considering their aforementioned speed and power. They all have respectably low endlag as it is, and I'd say the priority is adding more shieldstun rather than decreasing
endlag, but that's an aside.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

I dunno, while the rapid jab does have potential to do a lot of damage, there are just too many characters who can get out of it, and then punish the considerable ending lag. Meanwhile, the gentlemen does 11% damage, which falls only 1 or 2% short of what you get out of the rapid jab even if your opponent doesn't escape and punish (with the exceptions of big characters that have trouble escaping it like D3 or DK).

Shieldstun would be a very welcome boon as well, especially where Mac's grab game isn't amazing. It's nice to be able to do as much shield damage as we can with downward angled Ftilt, but it feels like it doesn't amount to much when an opponent can still punish it OOS if they didn't slide too far or have it break on that hit, which normally buys enough time for the shield to regenerate.

 

[Solreth]

Looks to me like the biggest agreement in the community is on shield options, primary grabs, grab range, and follow-ups. I think I also agree this is a number one priority for the character, and again thematic to having a demonic ground game.

 

[Splash Damage]

You said it yourself, his biggest weakness is shields. Give him a better set of grabs/grab range and, paired with his combination of D-tilt and Jab1, this character will truly dominate the ground. The ground also houses the best defensive option in the game, being shields, so that would essentially make this character have the best possible answers for the best defensive option. Dominating ground space includes dominating the action of shielding.

 

[Zodiacx10]

You said it yourself, his biggest weakness is shields. Give him a better set of grabs/grab range and, paired with his combination of D-tilt and Jab1, this character will truly dominate the ground. The ground also houses the best defensive option in the game, being shields, so that would essentially make this character have the best possible answers for the best defensive option. Dominating ground space includes dominating the action of shielding.

i always thought it was kinda silly how the character who is meant to have the best ground game has the worst grab ever

 

[jet56]

so shieldstun is a b%#@ is the consensus here? agreed. two things i think would be reasonable:

down angled fsmash does more shield damage, i feel like its just a little shy of being truly an amazing tool.
improved grab range. nothing crazy, just enough so i can grab in relatively close quarters.

on a side note, can we please fix his ftilt 1 to 2 transition? people are always DIing out of the second hit and punishing me for it.

 

[Zodiacx10]

so shieldstun is a b%#@ is the consensus here? agreed. two things i think would be reasonable:

down angled fsmash does more shield damage, i feel like its just a little shy of being truly an amazing tool.
improved grab range. nothing crazy, just enough so i can grab in relatively close quarters.

on a side note, can we please fix his ftilt 1 to 2 transition? people are always DIing out of the second hit and punishing me for it.

i think mac's grab should be amazing to complement his ground game. like as good as falcon or something

 

[jet56]

he would be a top 10 character if that was the case. i would love that.

 

[Splash Damage]

A falcon grab would be just a bit much maybe. Perhaps more of a Sonic grab.
Better grab, combo throw. That's all he needs to be top 15.

 

[shinhed-echi]

A Sonic grab sounds ideal. And at least one kill throw too (up). I think that's the most reasonable change we can ask for to keep the character's philosophy intact.


An aesthetic change I would have loved seeing was that the Wireframe costumes each had its own color.

(gloves / wireframe)
Green: green
Yellow: orange
Red: yellow
White: gray
Blue: Cyan
Orange: Red
Green 2: Tan
Green Hoodie: Pink wireframe

 

[Ghidorah14]

Mac doesnt need a kill throw. Almost his entire moveset is a kill move already.

What he needs is a grab that doesnt suck. Shields are huge in smash4, and mac doesnt have a good way to deal with them. IMO, that's literally all he needs to be the perfect ground fighter he's supposed to be.

 

[Zodiacx10]

Mac doesnt need a kill throw. Almost his entire moveset is a kill move already.

What he needs is a grab that doesnt suck. Shields are huge in smash4, and mac doesnt have a good way to deal with them. IMO, that's literally all he needs to be the perfect ground fighter he's supposed to be.

Mac's back throw is kind of a kill throw. I've kill people with it at the very edge of the stage. I didnt even have rage but rage sure helps.

 

[Splash Damage]

Mac's B-throw kills on ledge at ~150%. That's more than enough, considering that he pretty much is a kill move
Sonic's grabs, kill combo out of a throw, KO punch meter reversal, better Ftilt link. That's all he needs.
Everyone agree?

Also give me colored wireframes or give me death.

 

[Zodiacx10]

Mac's B-throw kills on ledge at ~150%. That's more than enough, considering that he pretty much is a kill move
Sonic's grabs, kill combo out of a throw, KO punch meter reversal, better Ftilt link. That's all he needs.
Everyone agree?

Also give me colored wireframes or give me death.

i would also like to see a few other things...but i would say that is around the minimum he needs

 

[jet56]

Mac's B-throw kills on ledge at ~150%. That's more than enough, considering that he pretty much is a kill move
Sonic's grabs, kill combo out of a throw, KO punch meter reversal, better Ftilt link. That's all he needs.
Everyone agree?

Also give me colored wireframes or give me death.

here here. really don't think he needs anything else...nothing else...still want more shield damage on his down angled forward smash...

 

[Zodiacx10]

here here. really don't think he needs anything else...nothing else...still want more shield damage on his down angled forward smash...

i think ill make a "the minimum he needs" part for the original post

 

[jet56]

i think ill make a "the minimum he needs" part for the original post

liked. (facebook joke)

 

[Splash Damage]

Dunno if he "needs" more after the things we've all brought up, but he could definitely get it without any objection. Most of the other stuff is extra credit that won't really matter for his placing much, but would still be fun/cool to have, like the down angled Fsmash shield damage.

 

[Zodiacx10]

Dunno if he "needs" more after the things we've all brought up, but he could definitely get it without any objection. Most of the other stuff is extra credit that won't really matter for his placing much, but would still be fun/cool to have, like the down angled Fsmash shield damage.

i put a bunch of extra stuff i would want to see in the spoiler of the first post

 

[inconspikuous]

Alright, I'm back and much more informed.

After watching tons of Mac combo videos, labbing for countless hours, and overall testing in tournament and out, I have some much more informed points and views to share.
I no longer believe he needs another Jab Locking move.
After being exposed to and testing out the absurd plethora of combos, setups, guaranteed strings into etching and mixup-heavy situations that, even when not able to sett up a jab lock due to the opponent teching or jumping away can still be incredibly favorable, I belive he simply doesn't need nor would he be able to use another locking move
Just so you believe me, here's just a few setups:
@=approx. starting percentage
(Disclaimer:Very few of these are guaranteed. I am merely describing their uses as Jab Reset setups, though the rest is up to you. You have to ready their reaction to get the proper punishes by techases, jump snatching w/UpB, ect ect)

Spoiler

-Ftilt @5-10%
~This also is one of the most useful, as Dtilt>Ftilt is a true combo, and the angle is very uncommon to tech, allowing you to start the match with a very early heavy chunk of damage or even extension of the combo with Dtilt>Grab>Pummel>Bthrow>Reset>Anything
-SideB @~40%
~This can be paired with a ledge cancelled rapid jab to start a pretty unexpectable mixup that nearly guarantees a Reset.
-Fthrow @~40 (Fall speed dependent)
-Bthrow @ Slightly earlier than F-throw
~On fastfallers, D-tilt strings are true combos into itself at least twice at 0-15%, leading you to be able to perform this 0-death off of 1 missed tech:
Dtilt>Dtilt>Dtilt>Grab>Pummel to ~35%>F-throw/B-throw(depending on the number of Dtilts&Pummels)>Jab Reset>Down-pivoted Fsmash>Techchase U-smash
-U-tilt to footstool @ 15%
~Planning on labbing soon to determine whether or not this true combos, but if it does then Mac has a reliable setup into KO punch or whatever else he wants.
-D-tilt to straight footstool, no nair @TBD
-Down-pivoted Fsmash @ ~65%
~ This is likely the best overall option for his Jab Resets, as it works to the latest percentage and tack on the most damage. Its duality of being an excellent option to capitalize on a Reset with and also begin one can create some pretty absurd and hilarious combos and mixup situations.
-Ledge getup @0%-any
This is the most absurd and ridiculous option he has for a jab lock, especially cosidering how few characters ever go to the ledge willingly. This one is useful for the sheer ridiculousness and unexpected nature of it. Need to set up your KO punch? Just run off and grab ledge. No percent requirements, works at 0. Offensive getup>Dair>Dtilt>KO punch.

I'll be labbing more and updating this daily, likely gonna make a whole new thread for it, but you get the idea. Dair is much more than enough. I'd be on board to remove that from the bufflist in favor of something else to be perfectly honest.

splash did you end up finishing this project? some good tech here.

 

[Splash Damage]

Actually I haven't, more or less abandoned it cause I was just starting to attend tournaments and needed to focus more on improving myself before trying to make big things like this. Looking back at it now, I think I'll probably revise it at a later date as some of it now seems incorrect/innacurate, with alternate weight classes and stuff. In its absence, I did make a full list of battlefield jab lock setup %s against all characters with Dthrow, Up variation Fsmash, U-tilt, D-tilt, and up air, which I am still debating on releasing.

 

[inconspikuous]

Actually I haven't, more or less abandoned it cause I was just starting to attend tournaments and needed to focus more on improving myself before trying to make big things like this. Looking back at it now, I think I'll probably revise it at a later date as some of it now seems incorrect/innacurate, with alternate weight classes and stuff. In its absence, I did make a full list of battlefield jab lock setup %s against all characters with Dthrow, Up variation Fsmash, U-tilt, D-tilt, and up air, which I am still debating on releasing.

sounds awesome. looking forward to seeing that (if you ever release it lol)