Cha-cha-cha-changes: the thread

[Pika_thunder]

I am a pika main in p:m, brawl and melee. And pika in p:m isn't up to par with the other characters in the game. Instead of JUST complaining, I'm going to suggest how to buff our favorite rat.

Stuff we MUST agree on before I start
-pika isn't perfect and I am not a noob for asking the pmbr to make him decent
-Pika has little to no Combo potential


So I'm just going to go through the move set and suggest changes

Jab
Now- useless
Suggestion- dash cancellable? Jab combo? Just decrease the lag?

F-tilt
Now- limited
Suggestion- in brawl there was weird knock back at low percents where the enemy would end up behind you, have this move's knock back be towards pika so it can be chained to dashing grab.

U-tilt
Now- good
Suggestion- at around 100-110 percent, in brawl, this move would combo to thunder. Restore this.

D-tilt
Now- perfect

Dsmash
Now-good
Suggestions- have the knock back as straight up on the final hit?

Fsmash
Now- decent
Suggestions- less start-up

Usmash
DON'T YOU DARE CHANGE THIS MOVE!

Dair
Now- less useful
Suggestions- MAKE THIS A METEOR! Please give the character with amazing Ariel edge-guarding a meteor/ spike! Please.

Bair
Now- perfect

Uair
Now- perfect

Nair
Now- extremely good
Suggestions- the brawl animation looks bigger, but has a troll hitbox. Change to brawl animation, increase hit box.

Fair
Now- this needs to be changed
Suggestions- make this like Bair with 2 less damage, but a little more range. Knock back like ivysaur's Fair.
This one needs to happen!

Neutral B
Now- perfect

Down B
Now- good
Suggestions- heavy armor when thunder hits pika.

Up B
Now- very good
Suggestions- have pika's hurtbox where he actually is.

Side B
Now- hopeless
Suggestions- this move is hopeless, please change it. I got nothing for this

Grabs

Uthrow
Now- perfect

Dthrow
Now- perfect

Bthrow
Now- only used for LOLz
Suggestions- lots more knock back. Make this a kill throw.

Fthrow
Now- bad
Suggestions- less knock back. Make it good for comboing.

Stats

Walk speed- good

Dash speed- make pika faster so he can capitalize on mistakes

Weight- perfect

Size- make pika smaller. If you look at him in the anime he fits on ash's shoulder. Make his size 2/3 of what it is noe to be more accurate to his anime size.

FALLSPEED- THE AWEFULLEST TERRIBLE EVER!
Make him fall in-between his brawl fallspeed and his p:m fall speed, right now he is easily combo'd and ko'd. This change, like Fair and Dair is essential.




Well that's what I think, but what do you think? Tell me in the comments.

And to the morons who will call me a noob for this.... What was happening on the pika boards before this,and do you really want pika to remain mediocre?

To the PMBR, keep up the great work, you guys are awesome. Don' t implement every change, or you might end up with 2.5 Sonic. But if you implement most change you will have a balanced character.


I personally think pika's at about D-E

 

[DMG]

Make Pikachu... Smaller?


Who is this man

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Instead of demanding changes which don't have any merit at all, you should probably try your best to push pika's current design to its fullest in the meta. I think that would be better for everyone.

 

[Paradoxium]

Pikachu has a lot of combo potential, it is just hard at times to end a combo with a kill

if you catch someone in a jab you can button mash and lock them into it, them finish them off with a move, watch axe do it

F-tilt very quick with decent knockback, although it is limited in range, I think it is a pretty good move

U-tilt is great, leads into combos

D-tilt is perfect

Dsmash is fine, leave it alone

Fsmash with less start up would be op, its strong and has range, leave it at that

Usmash, combined with down b, greatest move ever

Dair is decent, I'm not to fond of this move though, there are probably auto cancel shenanagins and what not

Bair is perfect

Uair is perfect

Nair is very good

Fair can be auto canceled into grab, which allows you to grab an opponent out of their shield before they can shield grab you, you can also auto cancel it into a plethora of moves, this is a highly usefulness move

Neutral B is not perfect, but it is still decent

Down B can by used after up smash to kill at very low percent's, it can also be reversed for very easy edge guards

Up B is amazing, it can be canceled in multiple different ways and it is amazing for recovery

His side b is an amazing recovering option from far away, it does not send you into helpless mode and pika already has amazing recovery without this move

Uthrow is perfect

D throw is perfect

His back throw throws them back, you can set up edge guards or get them into a better spot on the stage

His forward throw can set up tech chases and can lead into dacus, and throw them over the edge

his walk speed is fine

his dash speed is fast enough, not sure if there are any mistakes that he cant capitalize on already

His weight also makes him die very quickly, it is also bad, but once again he is a glass cannon

Smaller size would make him worse, he'd have reduced range on everything, kinda like pichu. his size is fine

His fall speed does make him easily combo able, but then again he is more of that glass cannon character

I was so tempted to call you a noob, but if you insist I will bite my tongue
Seriously he's not that bad just try and play him

 

[Kerenthar]

Too nice that a thread about Pikachu moves exists. I personally like threads like this.

In general, I am more agreed with Paradoxium analysis, but I want to rescue some points, in my opinion:

• Personally, I never used down aerial. I prefer neutral instead because I feel is lightly faster and better for approaching game. I feel turning it into a meteor/spike could be a too strong handicap and i am not agree with that... Maybe could be a multi-hit move like forward aerial, but compoundable with fast fall in order to make it more versatile and improved even more his aerial game.
• I always said that I sincerely miss N64 real back aerial, with that large annoying hitbox. Great improvement turning back that move, but with his original properties could be awesome, improving his actually "great combo potential".
• One idea that I give in other thread: his Forward Special could be pre-chargeable. Actually, Skull Bash don't have another use than recovery, but with the pre-charge (and less starting lag, I guess) could be used as a kill move for combos. Less charging time is desirable, but not mandatory.

VERY personal opinion, I must insist.

 

[Giygacoal]

There's no way these changes alone could make Pikachu nearly as good as 2.5 Sonic.

-Making fair like bair is a straight up nerf. Fair is really good for comboing into any of his ground moves. If you want knockback, use his other aerials. Don't suggest ruining his combo game.
-Pikachu doesn't need a better running speed to capitalize on mistakes. That's what QAC, Thunder Jolt, and his already good running speed are for.
-I agree with Paradoxium. Side-B doesn't need to be changed because it's already perfect as a horizontal recovery move that you can still double jump, wall jump AND up-B after using.
-Smaller size would be a nerf too. Smaller size=less range.
-There's nothing bad/too good about dair. I guess it's a move slot that can be used if need be.
-Why would dair need to be a meteor if u-air is already a semi-spike?
-Back-throw and forward-throw are already good for setting up gimps. No need to change.
-Jab isn't useless at all. As Paradoxium said, watch how Axe uses it.
-Armor on Thunder wouldn't mesh with the rest of the design nor be particularly helpful, either. That's just completely arbitrary.
-Do you have any proof that Up-B's hurtboxes don't match? They're probably the same as Melee's, which are spot on. http://i.imgur.com/pktM6.gif

And to the morons who will call me a noob for this....

I'm not a moron, and I'll still say you're a noob.

What was happening on the pika boards before this

Some discussion.

do you really want pika to remain mediocre?

No, and to be honest, the kind of information you're giving isn't typically considered interesting by the PMBR. This is the kind of response the members would usually give:

Instead of demanding changes which don't have any merit at all, you should probably try your best to push pika's current design to its fullest in the meta. I think that would be better for everyone.

Really, Pikachu isn't bad. It's just that not many people use the character, so there isn't much research and development. Project M is too well-balanced to have D/E tiers. The +/- system does better justice to how close the characters are.

Learn how to use your main.

 

[Kerenthar]

I'm not a moron, and I'll still say you're a noob.

Not necessary to be offensive. Just give your main a little more time and you could discover what people are saying here by yourself

Project M is too well-balanced to have D/E tiers.

Project M has definitely a better character balance than Standard Brawl or even Melee itself, but still top tiers are over the surface in comparison. Pikachu is a great character, but needs a little (maybe "very little") buff to keep competitive.

Another idea:

• A good addition I found in SD Remix. In that mod, down throw links perfectly with Up Smash around 80%-100% damage. Could be the good kill move that Pikachu needs.

 

[Giygacoal]

Not necessary to be offensive.

Mental note taken.

Project M has definitely a better character balance than Standard Brawl or even Melee itself, but still top tiers are over the surface in comparison. Pikachu is a great character, but needs a little (maybe "very little") buff to keep competitive.

For sure. Totally subjective, but I just think the S+ S A+ A B+ B (maybe the minuses too) system is less misleading than what Melee has set up (which has more of a gentle slope of character effectiveness than PM's often niche-based balance). I mean, I'm pretty sure the worst characters in PM are still better than Melee Ganondorf, who is C tier on the last good tier list (which is the one right before the new one). Of course, this is only from using Melee standards as a reference.

 

[Juushichi]

Pikachu's hurtbox isn't actually where Pika is when QAC happens. There's a video by Shenanigans that demonstrates this.

We're trying to address this now, actually.

 

[Kerenthar]

lol, actually silly XD

I discover in some matches with my sister (Zelda/Sheik main) that Pikachu does not have a real way to approach opponents when they hits at range (for example, Zelda and her forward tilt, up tilt, normal special and all her aerials). I do not known if I already does not discover how to solve that or actually in this case Pikachu has this awful handicap.

• Another idea: down aerial could hits harder, or even have heavy armor. I am not totally convinced about it, but could be...

 

[Juushichi]

Zelda is also really slow, so you can just kinda DD and bait one of her slow tilts and moderately slow aerials and then juggle her forever.

 

[foxygrandpa]

The problem with this is that you main pika in brawl. This game is more similar to melee. you should only really be comparing pika to his melee self. I agree that he's about d-e tier, but I do disagree with many of your points. I think pika should have less useless moves. Side b and dash attack are terrible. If they could somehow make it so that pika didnt have as much stun after hitting with the attack, it would really help with his pressure game. Kind of like squirtles withdraw, where he bounces out if he hits a shield or someone.

 

[Giygacoal]

Also the initial dash is likely more important than the continuous dash. Good initial dash means good dash dancing, which is a vital aspect to consider in the character's neutral game.

 

[Paradoxium]

I would actually like to see pika get a minor buff to his dash dance, hes more of a baiting character and I think that it will help his playstyle greatly

 

[Juushichi]

His dashdance is already pretty ridiculous. o_O

 

[Paradoxium]

Its ridiculously BAD! OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHBHBBB

But really though he needs at least a few buffs, but then again since no one plays as him he might actually be really good

 

[deadjames]

The more I play Pika the better he seems, as a Pika main coming from Brawl I used to think he was terrible in P:M, but as I'm starting to learn him I think he has the potential to be really good, I do think he could use some buffs, but as he is now he is a solid character with a significant learning curve. Honestly the only change I really want for Pikachu is for his wavedash distance to be increased, broken thunder from Brawl would be nice too, but I can live without it.

 

[Sarix]

Pikachu has lots of combo options, his combos just happen to be short and naturally reset pressure. But this isn't bad, it gives Pikachu multiple choices at the end of his pressure to set up mix-ups or create baits.

The only buff I could see him needing is slightly increased damage on some of his combo tools just to give a little more reward with his poor range.

 

[Deviljho]

I haven't played him too much... But from what I can see he's got a pretty good combo game... But I can agree with a few buffs. Maybe damage buffs and possibly making his b-throw (I may refer to it as the burrito from time to time) more combo-able. Both in and out or something.

 

[Giygacoal]

I haven't played him too much... But from what I can see he's got a pretty good combo game... But I can agree with a few buffs. Maybe damage buffs and possibly making his b-throw (I may refer to it as the burrito from time to time) more combo-able. Both in and out or something.

It sets up for gimps. You can put the opponent in a really bad position. You can combo into up-air.

 

[Anther]

I think pika's in a very nice place as of now. Aside from damage tweaks any buffs could easily push him into impossible to fight against territory.

I think the only iffy thing that's affected me are that I think he has some strange sour spots on usmash... But he also might not. People could have been potentially just crouch cancelling and I didn't think they had landed or something. Embarrass

He has a harder time killing than fox does against a lot of the cast, but he's also in general harder to kill since he's not a fast faller and his recovery is so nice. I think skullbash being able to grab the ledge would be a good help, as a lot of pikas have trouble with not being able to recover safely to the ledge when using quick attack.. and would offer (yet another) recovery mix-up to his grand amount of options.

 

[straydoggywog]

The only real buffs needed are an increased grab range, waveland out of jolt and possible the ability to moonwalk(Ok that last one is probably too much)

As for the rest of your suggestions, I'll just pretend they don't exist.

 

[Sarix]

I have to agree with Anther on that Pikachu is past the point of really getting any major buffs. Major buffs could very well shift Pikachu from his unique current design as a speedy, reset-based, mix-up character to becoming the next 2.1 Sonic. He really only could use small damage buffs like I mentioned to improve his risk/reward since he already has incredibly flexible tools that are only offset by short range.

 

[Kerenthar]

The only real buffs needed are an increased grab range, waveland out of jolt and possible the ability to moonwalk(Ok that last one is probably too much)

As for the rest of your suggestions, I'll just pretend they don't exist.

Really constructive conclusion, but your comment about grab range is valid. Specially while running is a useless move.

 

[straydoggywog]

I completely forgot about the useless dash attack. Right now it only seems to exist to be punished. Every time I use it it's an accident and even if it hits, I'm punished for it.

 

[Anther]

"Philosophical" question I got from Kprime when I was playing him in pika dittos yesterday, why do you guys think dsmash and thunder's kill potential from brawl was removed?

 

[Strong Badam]

Because characters on the whole generally fall more quickly in Project M, leading to an increased level of vertical KO resistance. The same can be said of Dedede's Up-Tilt, which is a common vertical KO move in Brawl, yet isn't in Project M despite its stats (I believe) remaining unchanged.

 

[Anther]

I suppose that makes all of the sense, considering it feels almost exactly the same as it does in melee. =p

 

[Juushichi]

For some reason or another, Anther... I have the feeling that PM Chu's dsmash links a little better than Melee's does, especially as a CC option.

 

[Mr.Random]

I completely forgot about the useless dash attack. Right now it only seems to exist to be punished. Every time I use it it's an accident and even if it hits, I'm punished for it.

New dash attack ideas?

 

[Sarix]

New dash attack ideas?

Just less end lag so Pikachu isn't punished for using it in general. It's already pretty fast but the end lag makes whiffing it a terrible mistake. Reducing the end lag would also likely make for another nice addition to Pikachu's already flexible combo options.

 

[Anther]

For some reason or another, Anther... I have the feeling that PM Chu's dsmash links a little better than Melee's does, especially as a CC option.

Another thing that helps it being better than it is in Melee is that fair tends to lift people off of the ground a little bit if they aren't crouch cancelling and gives pika time to dsmash.. which does give pika a really good low percent option that isn't a grab. :D.

I think it also seems to work better because pika's bigger than he was in melee, maybe a little D:?

 

[Juushichi]

- Skull Bash can now grab ledges, reinstated from Brawl​

- Quick Attack's animation stretches less and his tail is now intangible during travel​

- Quick Attack Cancel tweaked to compensate for the SCD bugfix​

​

QAC1 is pretty nuts. Try it out. ​

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​

 

[Anther]

QAC.. is .. SO FAST. What is this SCD bugfix. I keep seeing it referenced.

So.. since there's a QAC1, what's QAC2?

 

[Deleted member]

I have to retrain myself on the timing, but the change to QAC definitely makes it feel a lot faster. Not being able to grab the ledge with Skull Bash always bothered me, so I am very happy about that change as well.

Now the only thing that needs to be done to Pika is GIVE HIM A DECENT DASH ATTACK ALREADY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.

 

[Juushichi]

QAC.. is .. SO FAST. What is this SCD bugfix. I keep seeing it referenced.

So.. since there's a QAC1, what's QAC2?

The second part of QAC, of course. Maybe I should say QA1 and QA2 for the second burst. I'm pretty sure that I can post it, so I'll grab a post from the BR I made:

Input Grid
|7-8-9|
|4-5-6|
|1-2-3|

5 -> 6 = Resulted in being able to move (QA2) after a normal QA1. (ex: into 5 -> 6 -> 6/8/9 etc QAC2)
5 -> 4 = Resulted in being able to move (QA2) after a normal QA1.
5 -> 23 or 236 (basically a Hadouken) = Resulted in the slow, single QA1 to the left.
5 -> 21 or 214 (basically a Tatsu) = Resulted in the slow, single QA1 to the right.

The crazy part about this (as I found after like 5 minutes of testing) is that you can attack after QAC1 now, no matter which way you do it. o_O

 

[Nausicaa]

Wow, this character just got... a LOT funner...

 

[210stuna]

Make Pikachu... Smaller?


Who is this man

Not Pichu

 

[Anther]

The second part of QAC, of course. Maybe I should say QA1 and QA2 for the second burst. I'm pretty sure that I can post it, so I'll grab a post from the BR I made:

Input Grid
|7-8-9|
|4-5-6|
|1-2-3|

5 -> 6 = Resulted in being able to move (QA2) after a normal QA1. (ex: into 5 -> 6 -> 6/8/9 etc QAC2)
5 -> 4 = Resulted in being able to move (QA2) after a normal QA1.
5 -> 23 or 236 (basically a Hadouken) = Resulted in the slow, single QA1 to the left.
5 -> 21 or 214 (basically a Tatsu) = Resulted in the slow, single QA1 to the right.

The crazy part about this (as I found after like 5 minutes of testing) is that you can attack after QAC1 now, no matter which way you do it. o_O

So I've played around with this and I'm not super entirely sure if the difference is that since you're doing so many inputs in a short span.. that pikachu is actually going at one of the 1/16th angles between 1 and 2, or 4 and 1, which is making the slight alteration. I'm just thinking that it's the case because I can get the oddly short quick attack consistently just by doing one of the more precise angles .

But.... I'm not sure =x.