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CEO 2015 Will Not Have Customs Legal & 2 Stock 5 Minutes

moofpi

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That timer will be a issue.
I agree, 5 minutes is going to timeout most of the time. Especially if you're fighting a Sonic or Rosalina. Because at 4 minutes when people would be on their last stock with 4 minutes to go and would still be thinking of how to beat the other person they are now thinking "Okay, only 59 seconds left, better play it safe." Mark my words.

It's a hard truth that KOing in Smash 4 does take a little longer exacerbated by people playing two stocks play more conservatively in big tournaments (in Apex, the person that lost the first stock lost the game 70% of the time), and with only 5 minutes to close both stocks that is telling the players to put their chance at winning on the line by being hyper aggressive the whole match (which wouldn't end well in almost any game) or play smartly and wait for a good opening.

Let's say one character has 60% and the other has 110% with 60 seconds left on the clock. The 60% is not going to try anything flashy when essentially they've already won. The 110% is going to try everything to get damage on the first player and the first player knows this, waiting in shield, waiting for the approach to punish and run away or finish the stock. It's just stupid how much the entire game's power shifts when you're fighting the clock instead of the opponent.

Sorry for the rant, I just watched Xanadu's Grand Finals last night with Seagull Joe (Sonic) vs Boss (Green Mario) and it was 2 stock, 5 minute with a lot of what I just described. I get play-to-win, doesn't mean I have to like it or a rule set that brings out the worst aspects of it.
 

Atrabilious

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That timer will be a issue.
Potentially. That being said as a TO it is incumbent upon him to look at the worst possible out-come in terms of logistics, and running 8-minute matches could cause the tournament to take far longer than is either acceptable or permissible. You can only stay at a venue for so long, and going by CEO's website they had around 2800 entrants last year, assuming they have a similar amount this year or potentially even more, time is everything. I'd understand wanting to stick with the devil you know in this regard, something on this scale can't really afford to run poorly.

---

As far as custom moves go however, Amazing Ampharos' efforts into the custom move community project have been nothing short of spectacular in every meaning of the term. S/he's done everything humanely possible to make custom moves as smooth a process as possible for everyone involved, and not utilizing their efforts to make custom moves a reality for this tournament is a shame. This is something that can be set up in advance of the tournament actually commencing.

I understand not wanting to take the first leap since custom moves are unproven but the argument of 'it's too early to shake up the meta' soon becomes 'let's not mess with an established meta' if you leave it too long, people become too comfortable in what they already know at that point to embrace any form of significant change. If not now, then when? I see handfuls of people say it's too early, but they don't seem to say when it'll become a good time. Still, he says he's open to custom moves if the entrants want it. Guess we'll find out soon enough.
 
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Mr.ケイ

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You know what you can do to get around this custom nonsense? Have everyone make their desired custom character on the 3DS and transfer that character over to the WiiU...is it just me or did everyone forget that you can do that from the 50 fact extravaganza?
 

moofpi

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Just change 5 to 6 minutes...
Right? I feel that extra minute really makes a difference. 8 minutes seems too long, 7 just looks weird, but 5 is definitely just too short for serious play. Apex's timer really was not an issue unless someone blatantly camped out the whole match.
 

TheHypnotoad

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yes, amsa should drop Yoshi, and have a stronger character so he would have a better chance at winning, because yoshi is bad. and once someone learns yoshi gimmicks, it can and should turn into a slaughter
george_costanza_holding_a_baseball_bat.jpg
 

Aninymouse

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Because of rage alone, Smash 4 always seems to work better with 3 stocks. Go watch the KIT tournament on Youtube! 2 stocks can work, but 3 stocks allows for more comebacks and experimentation.
 

Z25

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That is very faulty logic. Only if customs were unlockable from hours spent in training, vs or online would your post hold water, but the way it is now any time you dedicate to unlocking customs is time you are not spending improving as a player.
I wouldn't say that, considering that, if you own a 3ds it's easy to get customs, hell it's not that bad on wii u in classic either just somewhat harder. And since it appears the cpus have been buffed, level 9 classic cpus aren't easy, they are worth fighting
 

warriorman222

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"Matches go faster with more stocks and more time"

3 time outs on 5 minutes equals 15 minutes of game time.
3 time outs of 8 minutes equals 24 minutes of game time.

"Customs should be tried out"

Does anyone remember 3DS tournaments? Or did they not exist?

"You have not watched tourneys if you think only scrubs or in friendlies people use flashy tactics. Conservative playstyles are absolute bores, and form a viewer's point they shouldn't be encouraged."

Welp, sure go prove me wrong with something cool and awesome that can't be countered by playing safe. The optimal way to play is what will reign, and there is no changing that or as it seems you want - to force that change.

" Remember, this game's long-term survival is at stake here. What we do here, and how we do it, could make or breaks the metagame"

So somehow the entire game is at stake because what? Like is there a mob of 3 million people about to run to play melee? I doubt it.

"Normal play is more boring imo due to lack of variety due to alot of Shiek, Rosa, Diddy, and some oddball character. in custom play,there is no clear OP character, so there is actual variety. If you don't agree that variety at no cost is good, than Amsa should drop Yoshi and go main Fox or Falco."

We have shieks, rosas, diddys, falcons, pikachus, sonics, GANONDORFS, villagers, ness, D3's , DK's, ZSS's , ROBs
all in our local tournament scene. Just because NJ streams the same people over and over does not mean the whole world is like that


yes, amsa should drop Yoshi, and have a stronger character so he would have a better chance at winning, because yoshi is bad. and once someone learns yoshi gimmicks, it can and should turn into a slaughter
1.You realize stocks take 2 seconds longer on average with 2 stocks, and remember that Diddy is everywhere dropping that average heavily, so it should be an undefined amount higher.

And are you gonna try and wait out 8 minutes? Or 5? Which seems more practical?

2. And customs worked perfectly fine in small/medium-large tournaments. Now bring it to a national, and see if the problems persist.

If they do, oh well. But Jebailey is comparing customs to items, and customs are liked to differentiate the game, they're liked to add something not random, yet still competetive to the game. And that has the side effect of differentiating the game in a good way.

3. I'm not trying to force anything. But there are always, even in minor cases, people going for stuff other than playing safe. There were best out of 3 Grand finals that ended in 4 minutes flat(Cap vs Zamus, but still).

And if what you say about variety below is truly correct, then ther ewill be much les boring play to come.

4. I'm talking about everything, not this. What we do at the game's start, dealing with problems(Diddy), making the rulsets, will determine the game's future years from now. CEO-2015 is a part of that, liek Apex was, EVO is, and every thing else it.

And please stop with that red herring because I didn't mention a thing about Melee.

5. And just because your local tourneys have tons of variety doesn;'t make the world like that either. I honestly hope you're right, because he vocal minority of custom-hating scrubs(only the scrubs, not the people with actual reasoning)are ruining things for everyone (Got customs banned in Hawaii and Florida because they're broken, when they're not.)

At this rate customs may never get a good chance outside of EVO. SO I hope your variety thign is worldwide. But if that doens't happen, we could allow customs and have 30 characters all around the same level, another 10-15 that are almost asgood, and then 5 characters that are either too garbage(Sowrdfighter) or too abandoned(Diddy could end up here. COULD.) to be at the same level, but are still viable and usable. Customs allow more variety is what I'm saying.

And if Amsa is best with Yoshi, let him stay Yoshi, if he plays worse with a top tier, saying he should use them is unfair. Sam how I use Little Mac despite him being almost globally seen as bottom-5(I disagree, I can name a bottom 5 without him in it), because I despise the top tiers, and love Little Mac for multiple reasons.

SO, no mean to start a war, but I think customs should be allowed. And I don't think we should keep 2 stock, this game isn't Brawl.
 

Claire Diviner

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for a peer to peer connection where you live alot of people must have smooth internet.

Like my internet is fast but my opponents could still suck.
This is true. I suppose I must be lucky. I'm not saying I've never dealt with lag either, but when I do, I just SD and search for another person to play in For Glory.
 

T0MMY

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I suspect that I will be able to respect Alex Jebaily's decision to keep the "Custom Fighter" setting: OFF for competitive standard reasons.
It is the standard to allow for a new game to be played with default settings and tweak from there
, not imagine some kind of subjective way to play it and start arguing about what to change later.

This is a standard for a solid reasoning developed not just within the Smash Community but throughout the fighting game history.

I wish I could say I respected Joey Cueller's decision to make the controversial "Customs Allowed" ruling, but from what I have seen it was likely not demanded by the Community and instead had what looked to be just a couple pro-custom individuals dictate what the settings were without properly having the Community ask for it or even ask if they should in the first place seeing as it goes against the Competitive Standard.
 

Road Death Wheel

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I suspect that I will be able to respect Alex Jebaily's decision to keep the "Custom Fighter" setting: OFF for competitive standard reasons.
It is the standard to allow for a new game to be played with default settings and tweak from there, not imagine some kind of subjective way to play it and start arguing about what to change later.

This is a standard for a solid reasoning developed not just within the Smash Community but throughout the fighting game history.

I wish I could say I respected Joey Cueller's decision to make the controversial "Customs Allowed" ruling, but from what I have seen it was likely not demanded by the Community and instead had what looked to be just a couple pro-custom individuals dictate what the settings were without properly having the Community ask for it or even ask if they should in the first place seeing as it goes against the Competitive Standard.
have u not been around this board? almost everyone wants customs.
 

ZomBiehn

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Good! Who the hell wants to wait/watch EACH AND EVERY Smasher choose a f****** customs moveset each time a fight begins?
 

Road Death Wheel

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Good! Who the hell wants to wait/watch EACH AND EVERY Smasher choose a f****** customs moveset each time a fight begins?
its why there are premade sets. looks up amazing ampharos's custom move project. its way faster than ur leting on.
 

Code Bread

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I didn't actually read his entire post about why customs will be off, so don't bite my butt about it unless you're mad that I'm talking without reading the entire post.

That said, somewhere it's mentioned that there's a lot we don't know about sm4sh's balance and we should give the game time to develop. But if we don't use customs and the meta shapes itself around this, then customs are decidedly legal, wouldn't that be drastically changing the meta and everyone will have to start over again?

I'm pretty neutral about customs on at CEO since EVO hasn't happened yet, but I dislike the 2 stocks 5 minutes ruleset. I know it's For Glory standard and Xanadu and something something something, but it rewards a very conservative playstyle, something the game already does enough as it is.
 

warriorman222

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I suspect that I will be able to respect Alex Jebaily's decision to keep the "Custom Fighter" setting: OFF for competitive standard reasons.
It is the standard to allow for a new game to be played with default settings and tweak from there, not imagine some kind of subjective way to play it and start arguing about what to change later.

This is a standard for a solid reasoning developed not just within the Smash Community but throughout the fighting game history.

I wish I could say I respected Joey Cueller's decision to make the controversial "Customs Allowed" ruling, but from what I have seen it was likely not demanded by the Community and instead had what looked to be just a couple pro-custom individuals dictate what the settings were without properly having the Community ask for it or even ask if they should in the first place seeing as it goes against the Competitive Standard.
I respect his decision, although I don't agree with his reasoning of comparing customs to items. Apart from that, it's his tourney, and we already have EVO.
 

Morbi

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I misread the title incorrectly and assumed that CEO "would not have 2 stock, 5 minutes" as a rule. Glad to see that that is not the case. After what happened last CEO, he probably just wants things to move along. Ha ha.
 

warriorman222

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I misread the title incorrectly and assumed that CEO "would not have 2 stock, 5 minutes" as a rule. Glad to see that that is not the case. After what happened last CEO, he probably just wants things to move along. Ha ha.
Yeah, but I personally don't like 2 stocks, 5 min in this game. it lengthens the times of stocks, encourages timeouts, gives the advantage to FG players, and makes comebacks horrendously difficult.
 

CEOJebailey

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I'm not totally against Bumping the timer back up to 6 minutes like APEX. It's gonna come down to how many people register for the game cause that extra minute can add up if Smash 4 gets say 500 plus entrants at CEO. But if not I'll definitely consider a 6 minute timer again.
 

Morbi

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Yeah, but I personally don't like 2 stocks, 5 min in this game. it lengthens the times of stocks, encourages timeouts, gives the advantage to FG players, and makes comebacks horrendously difficult.
Agreed; however, time-outs are rarely the best solution from the get-go. That tactic will only truly become relevant a couple of minutes into the game and the game is not nearly as defensive as Brawl (therefore, it might be better to just rush-down instead as it is more viable). I see the problem, but I also find the problem to be negligible myself. I mean, FG players are at a disadvantage just because they are playing offline and they are used to lag, input delay, and certain tactics that are actually unsafe. I believe that they will need to unlearn a lot of bad habits (or adapt to the different latency or lack thereof) that work in that meta-game to be competitive in tournament.

That being said, if it does not work out, rules can change. CEO or EVO will hardly set a precedent for our community.
 

warriorman222

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I'm not totally against Bumping the timer back up to 6 minutes like APEX. It's gonna come down to how many people register for the game cause that extra minute can add up if Smash 4 gets say 500 plus entrants at CEO. But if not I'll definitely consider a 6 minute timer again.
Chances are that with that extra minute is that fewer people willing to time out. it could potentially save time.
 
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VKatana

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Before we start allowing them at majors I think the community needs to become aware of every little trick like the Pikmin Persistent Power Amplification, and then if we really want to use them Nintendo needs to patch them. Mashpotato Samurai said himself they were unbalanced and just made to give players an edge their better friends, "Sort of like cheating."
 

warriorman222

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Before we start allowing them at majors I think the community needs to become aware of every little trick like the Pikmin Persistent Power Amplification, and then if we really want to use them Nintendo needs to patch them. Mashpotato Samurai said himself they were unbalanced and just made to give players an edge their better friends, "Sort of like cheating."
It was a joke, that should have been obvious. And he was talking about customs as a whole, not just moves. That includes equipment, which is cheating.

And if Mashpotato said using Brawl Ganon was cheating because he was busted, does that make Brawl Ganon busted?
 

Morbi

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Before we start allowing them at majors I think the community needs to become aware of every little trick like the Pikmin Persistent Power Amplification, and then if we really want to use them Nintendo needs to patch them. Mashpotato Samurai said himself they were unbalanced and just made to give players an edge their better friends, "Sort of like cheating."
It is not really feasible to become aware of "every little trick" especially if we are not using them at majors (as interest dwindles or people practice the standard rule-set, etc.). There are not really enough people testing them to find the exploits in my opinion. Not that CEO should have customs, but if we do not make them tournament standard, there is no real reason for Mashpotato Samurai to actually patch them given his statements that you alluded to.
 

New_Dumal

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I'm so tired about 2-stock tournaments...
If you don't have time for the Smash tournament to run, don't do it this way.

It's seriously, 2 stock and 5 minutes is a horrible ruleset.
 

T0MMY

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have u not been around this board? almost everyone wants customs.
Nice try.
Also have to LOL at the next post sandwiching your post between contrary posts.

But, really, it shouldn't be a matter of mob rule, the people who are competing should have a stronger say in what rules they'll be competing by. Not sure why 1,000 keyboard warrior newbs should be the ones making the rules for veteran Smashers.
 

Road Death Wheel

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Nice try.
Also have to LOL at the next post sandwiching your post between contrary posts.

But, really, it shouldn't be a matter of mob rule, the people who are competing should have a stronger say in what rules they'll be competing by. Not sure why 1,000 keyboard warrior newbs should be the ones making the rules for veteran Smashers.
its been that way for 8 years get used 2 it.
 

VKatana

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And if Mashpotato said using Brawl Ganon was cheating because he was busted, does that make Brawl Ganon busted?
Well know but the community already knows all about brawl Ganon, his frame data, run speed, his stats etc. I couldn't really tell if the comment was in jest or not (although it does refer to equipment as well as perhaps custom moves) but if it wasn't in jest then I'd have some faith in him. He did make the game after all. Just because he says it doesn't automatically make it true but don't be so quick to dismiss on a new topic like this, if anyone else has any quotes from Sakurai about customs then I think they should be brought forth. We need to find out everything we can about custom moves, that's what I'm trying to say here.
 

VKatana

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It is not really feasible to become aware of "every little trick" especially if we are not using them at majors (as interest dwindles or people practice the standard rule-set, etc.). There are not really enough people testing them to find the exploits in my opinion.
Couldn't agree more, I'm just trying to say that we need to discover as much as possible about customs and try and prevent exploits in a tournament setting. This shouldn't necessarily prevent custom moves from being included at tournaments, but we should always be looking to expand our knowledge of the game in general, as a community.
That being said, the exploits we've seen so far are very situational, but that doesn't mean they're impossible. Matches can still be fair with (probably) most/all of the customs but we just need to make sure there's no monkey business.
 

Double Sushi

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So happy about the change to 5 minutes, Apex Smash 4's top 8 was SO SLOW. Too many people were running the clock and frankly, it was just boring.
 

FEFIZ

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Right? I feel that extra minute really makes a difference. 8 minutes seems too long, 7 just looks weird, but 5 is definitely just too short for serious play. Apex's timer really was not an issue unless someone blatantly camped out the whole match.
You right. 6 minutes is just perfect.
 
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