CEO 2015 Will Not Have Customs Legal & 2 Stock 5 Minutes

[VKatana]

An interesting thing that I haven't seen anyone address on this thread is that as far as I know, at EVO or customs-on locals, you don't have to tell anyone what custom moves you're using. Please do correct me if I'm wrong because I want to be informed on the situation but that's just what I've heard so far. So in theory, someone could just save a trick up their sleeve until the very last moment (Doc's insane down special which has been seen to kill at low-mid percents at the edge) and their opponent simply wouldn't be informed enough to have a chance at avoiding it or being able to expect it and react. To me, its a bit strange we're allowing that. That being said, I could be wrong so I want some alternate viewpoints on this.
Thoughts?

 

[Sleek Media]

RIGHT NOW, I'm refusing to go to tournaments because people like me get thrown under the bus from TOs with comments like this. Maybe you don't even realize it, which is why I'm telling you now. I'm a tournament player, AND I also like stage hazards and customs. It's not mutually exclusive, and I'm living proof of that. In fact, the sole reason I made an account on SmashBoards is to share my research and help educate players on how stages with hazards are competitive. So you're completely and directly getting in the way of my positive efforts right now. Why should I give any more of my money and support to people who pretend like my efforts don't matter?

Regardless of how *you* think I should be playing this game, I have my own informed opinion because I actually play it. I have a bottom line expectation for how I want to both PLAY, EXPERIENCE, and WATCH Smash 4 and that's: I need to see customs at Smash tournaments.

As a player, I trust the custom move project, and even though it's not PERFECT, it's a SOLUTION that makes sense to me. Something I can get behind. It only takes 2 weeks of on/off play to get all the customs, but I'M OK WITH PRESETS. *only if TOs are currently working to unlock all the customs on every Wii U they use NOW* I can make my player's guarantee that I will be very happy with any TO who can make this guarantee for me. And not happy with TOs who want to make excuses about it.

The Smash community has done an amazing job of compiling all these different preset options together, so I think it needs to be tried. If you don't have any better ideas about logistics, and all you have is "no, no, no", then I will continue to not support Smash 4 at CEO, like I don't support Smash 4 at locals currently, and I encourage others to do the same.

It should be a community-wide effort to make sure everyone has custom moves, so I'll propose a solution myself for TOs. Local scenes could take one week out of their tournament schedules to host sessions where the community unlocks the moves together. With that many people playing co-op in every mode, every donated setup will make HUGE progress in getting them all. Then there'll never be a problem again. As a player, I'll do my best to come to these events and help my local scene out! :-)

So if I can come up with solutions in this post, why can't you?

EDIT: I'm saying all this as someone who LIKES watching CEO for other fighting games and has supported CEO in the past!

Nailed it. I feel this way about items. The way people are around here, you'd think there's only one way to play this game. Has there even been a 3v3 or 2v2v2v2 tournament yet?

 

[warriorman222]

An interesting thing that I haven't seen anyone address on this thread is that as far as I know, at EVO or customs-on locals, you don't have to tell anyone what custom moves you're using. Please do correct me if I'm wrong because I want to be informed on the situation but that's just what I've heard so far. So in theory, someone could just save a trick up their sleeve until the very last moment (Doc's insane down special which has been seen to kill at low-mid percents at the edge) and their opponent simply wouldn't be informed enough to have a chance at avoiding it or being able to expect it and react. To me, its a bit strange we're allowing that. That being said, I could be wrong so I want some alternate viewpoints on this.
Thoughts?

Doc's Insane down special that kills at low-mid percents is never gonna hit anything. Even worse, he can no longer recover, or even use it due to startup. If you mean Soaring Tornado, that has no horizontal distance, and has the kill power of a thumbtack.

Plus I'm pretty sure EVO has the notell/lie=DQ rule in place.

 

[mega4000]

Oh nice! No Customs! a Tournament that everyone will skips and nobody will care. And with this attitude you want people to get hype? for God sakes..

 

[warriorman222]

Oh nice! No Customs! a Tournament that everyone will skips and nobody will care. And with this attitude you want people to get hype? for God sakes..

Come on, in Jebailey's defense, allowing customs is shaky, and if it weren't for Amazing Ampharos, the logistics issue would be so large that at a large-scale tourney like this, they wouldn't and shouldn't be considered.

But his comparison to items... it's almostmoyshe all over again, except bigger. At least he acknowledges that there could be a solution, and that he may change it in light of heavy complaint.

 

[VKatana]

We might just need to wait until after EVO to be able to truly discuss the role of customs in competitive play. Smash Wii U at EVO could finally show us the true potential of hype in SSBU, maybe it'll make the game just as exciting as Project M or Melee to watch and deliver the game into a much faster, more exciting meta. Conversely, it could be a big setback for the Smash Wii U community. Either way, the game isn't going to become a monster eSport overnight. EVO is going to be Judgment Day for customs, and we should all watch and analyze intently.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

With all the custom talk, I think customs are a cool idea to consider. But I completely agree with what's being said here. They haven't been tested enough, and I believe custom moves need time to be developed. The base cast needs to be worked with more. I think customs might have something good to bring to Smash, but that's yet to be seen.

I can appreciate sticking to his guns. Good for him.

 

[VKatana]

If anyone's still watching this thread, consider the following: the Smash 4 meta of default characters has been developing for some time. Diddy and Sheik prove as two of the strongest characters in the non-custom meta, and as a result we see a lot of (1) Diddy dittos, (2) Sheik dittos, (3) Diddy vs. Sheik matches, and (4) people fishing for kills the same way time and time again. People complain relentlessly about these 4 things. Give customs time to develop a meta, the large variety of custom moves will be boiled down to what's considered best, then we'll see similar results: dittos and people fishing for kills the same old ways every match. Won't there be complaining then? Sure, it'll be 'more hype' until everyone catches on to the usual tricks.
Anyone else thinking that?

 

[warriorman222]

If anyone's still watching this thread, consider the following: the Smash 4 meta of default characters has been developing for some time. Diddy and Sheik prove as two of the strongest characters in the non-custom meta, and as a result we see a lot of (1) Diddy dittos, (2) Sheik dittos, (3) Diddy vs. Sheik matches, and (4) people fishing for kills the same way time and time again. People complain relentlessly about these 4 things. Give customs time to develop a meta, the large variety of custom moves will be boiled down to what's considered best, then we'll see similar results: dittos and people fishing for kills the same old ways every match. Won't there be complaining then? Sure, it'll be 'more hype' until everyone catches on to the usual tricks.
Anyone else thinking that?

That may happen. So what's your solution?

 

[Sleek Media]

If anyone's still watching this thread, consider the following: the Smash 4 meta of default characters has been developing for some time. Diddy and Sheik prove as two of the strongest characters in the non-custom meta, and as a result we see a lot of (1) Diddy dittos, (2) Sheik dittos, (3) Diddy vs. Sheik matches, and (4) people fishing for kills the same way time and time again. People complain relentlessly about these 4 things. Give customs time to develop a meta, the large variety of custom moves will be boiled down to what's considered best, then we'll see similar results: dittos and people fishing for kills the same old ways every match. Won't there be complaining then? Sure, it'll be 'more hype' until everyone catches on to the usual tricks.
Anyone else thinking that?

Probably true, but that's the effect of the internet. The only way around it is character striking, and considering that the half dozen people in my thread about it are screaming bloody murder, I wouldn't count on it coming into play any time soon.

 

[captain clutch]

While Diddy and Sheik have proven to be the two best in vanilla smash4, it's yet to see who will reign supreme in the custom smash4 meta. And let's not forget, Diddy and Sheik will still be viable too. Custom moves change no more than a 4th of a characters moveset.

The best part now, while customs are fresh and undiscovered, is that everyone has an opinion on what is "OP" or really good. I've heard people say "Wow Dr. Mario with customs is cheating" or "Ganon is godlike with customs" or "custom WFT is crazy" Not to mention DK and Villager. And there are many characters who may just pick up one or two moves, but it could be game changers.

So yes the custom meta has so much room to develop, but I don't think it'll get to a point where we see 2 characters dominate every game.

 

[CEOJebailey]

With all the custom talk, I think customs are a cool idea to consider. But I completely agree with what's being said here. They haven't been tested enough, and I believe custom moves need time to be developed. The base cast needs to be worked with more. I think customs might have something good to bring to Smash, but that's yet to be seen.

I can appreciate sticking to his guns. Good for him.

It's not so much about sticking to my guns, it's just knowing that no matter what either decision will alienate almost the same amount of players. The more I read people on Facebook asking for turbo controllers or asking how to unlock specific customs the more it just makes it harder to incorporate Customs at a larger scale this soon without more community testing and practice or creating default move sets that everyone can agree with.

Some of the guys in here saying they'll never support CEO because I'm being lazy really have never run a large scale tournament before and understand how hard it is to run 10 different games in a single weekend with everyone's best interest in running a smooth all around tournament.

What makes it even harder to consider is the fact that you don't even unlock actual custom moves when you use the 3DS transfer method to a WiiU, just pre set move sets. You'd still have to spend weeks to months unlocking all the moves directly on a WiiU and I plan to have over 16 Setups for WiiU provided for players so they won't need to bring their own setups.

At this point I'm still standing strong at CEO and not having Customs, but I am still thinking about the move back up to 6 minutes on the timer.

If you don't want to support a great event and everyone else that is still coming to have fun, that's totally fine, I'm still gonna graciously put on the best damn event for everyone that attends. End of the day, it's easier for ALL players to have an equal footing with customs off and practice default match ups than for everyone to try and spend all their focus in single player modes unlocking everything then investing more time learning the ins and outs of custom move sets.

With Customs on I know it WILL scare off crossover players from other fighting games that don't have as much time as Smash Dedicated players to learn or unlock customs.

I'd also like to see the end results of Top 8 at CEO and Top 8 at EVO if they stick with customs On to compare. Just pray that EVO Top 8 has some surprises and upsets and doesn't end with most of it not even using customs otherwise I'll be having fun with a big I TOLD YOU SO after it.

PS,

Registration for CEO 2015 goes LIVE Tonight at 10 pm EST with a MAJOR announcement that benefits everyone attending . It'll be up on www.ceogaming.org/register

 

[VKatana]

That may happen. So what's your solution?

I never claimed to have a solution, as I simply don't have one. I don't think there is one yet as far as customs go. What I proposed was just a possibility of what could happen in the future of the customs-on meta, nobody truly knows what that path holds for Smash 4. Maybe it actually will end up increasing the game's lifespan and make it more exciting to play and watch by introducing more room for creative play just like Melee does. Maybe. The situation I described is also possible.
My main point: there's no way to tell yet. As I stated in another post, EVO will be Judgment Day for customs.
I've also recently been considering that maybe players more dedicated to preserving the vanilla version of Smash 4 (the diehard anti-customs players) need to get more creative with their play. Discover new things. People are saying Smash 4 needs to be 'saved' but if they didn't tune in to streams to see Hoo Hahs and Sheik f-air strings, their minds might change.

TL;DR: if people don't want customs, they need to get creative. We should allow both the customs and non-customs meta to evolve and see what the future truly holds for both.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

It's not so much about sticking to my guns, it's just knowing that no matter what either decision will alienate almost the same amount of players. The more I read people on Facebook asking for turbo controllers or asking how to unlock specific customs the more it just makes it harder to incorporate Customs at a larger scale this soon without more community testing and practice or creating default move sets that everyone can agree with.

Some of the guys in here saying they'll never support CEO because I'm being lazy really have never run a large scale tournament before and understand how hard it is to run 10 different games in a single weekend with everyone's best interest in running a smooth all around tournament.

What makes it even harder to consider is the fact that you don't even unlock actual custom moves when you use the 3DS transfer method to a WiiU, just pre set move sets. You'd still have to spend weeks to months unlocking all the moves directly on a WiiU and I plan to have over 16 Setups for WiiU provided for players so they won't need to bring their own setups.

At this point I'm still standing strong at CEO and not having Customs, but I am still thinking about the move back up to 6 minutes on the timer.

If you don't want to support a great event and everyone else that is still coming to have fun, that's totally fine, I'm still gonna graciously put on the best damn event for everyone that attends. End of the day, it's easier for ALL players to have an equal footing with customs off and practice default match ups than for everyone to try and spend all their focus in single player modes unlocking everything then investing more time learning the ins and outs of custom move sets.

With Customs on I know it WILL scare off crossover players from other fighting games that don't have as much time as Smash Dedicated players to learn or unlock customs.

I'd also like to see the end results of Top 8 at CEO and Top 8 at EVO if they stick with customs On to compare. Just pray that EVO Top 8 has some surprises and upsets and doesn't end with most of it not even using customs otherwise I'll be having fun with a big I TOLD YOU SO after it.

PS,

Registration for CEO 2015 goes LIVE Tonight at 10 pm EST with a MAJOR announcement that benefits everyone attending . It'll be up on www.ceogaming.org/register

Why is that a problem? Smash 4 is a different game from other fighters. Why should it not be appreciated for it's differences rather than trying to keep it on the same page as everything else? We already see it's very different from Melee and the ire it has attracted for those reasons.

Smash 4 is a unique game, and it's community should grow from a genuine interest from what it has to offer differently from other games instead of being a poor man's copy-cat.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

I'd also like to see the end results of Top 8 at CEO and Top 8 at EVO if they stick with customs On to compare. Just pray that EVO Top 8 has some surprises and upsets and doesn't end with most of it not even using customs otherwise I'll be having fun with a big I TOLD YOU SO after it.

What would this actually prove? For the good of the game it would actually be in everyone's favour if customs didn't change the top placements and proved that the best players still play the best under any circumstance. Substantial upsets will most likely mean the death of customs.

I really have no idea what you're going on about.

 

[thehard]

@ CEOJebailey while I respect your opinion I think you're behind on the times

 

[freezy]

I just can't agree with his arguments... :/

Spookys Stream from the custom moves tourney the other day was so hype, that's what I want Smash 4 to be.

 

[Hakken]

How about trying to refute his argument people?

I thought I would come here to see actual discussion on the topic and not mild jabs at him based off of assumptions. Reddit is also being pretty inmature about this.

He raises pretty valid points about the inherent barrier that RNG unlocking brings for new players. It is not so much a "too many matchups" problem but more so a problem with the unlock system. Yes there are "fast" alternatives, all which require a flashed 3ds or a turbo controller. It might not be a barrier for some but it definitely alienates anyone new that doesnt want to spend more money or spend countless hours not getting good, but grinding for customs in order to actually get good.

Its an inherent barrier, whether people like it or not. Yes, customs can be hype and could be beneficial for the game, but there's enough merit in Jebaileys argument as to why this is not ideal for a TO who wants big entrant numbers.

 

[freezy]

All the arguments were talked about more than once already. He knows about them, aswell as the pros and cons. It just came down to different stances on the issue, if you think that the cons are really that big and if yes, if the pros don't outweigh them. The majority of the community thinks differently than Jebaily in that regard.

EVO will be with customs. Jebailey said himself multiple times that most of the people that attend CEO mostly also attend EVO. So people will have to prepare for custom moves anyway. Banning customs for CEO won't change the fact that the people still prepare for customs. Allowing customs for CEO might even benefit them so they can practice them in a larger tournament before EVO.

And for the "I have to learn too many matchups, it's so hard!" and the "it is too early, it takes too long to get the necessary stuff" arguments: Look at Pokemon. Players not only have to learn hundreds of Pokemon and their stats, abilities and attacks, they also have to catch them and train them, which takes a long time. Still there are championships, so clearly not too hard for Pokemon players. Another example: Look at Dota2 or LoL. Players have to learn many many heroes + their abilities, and items. And in the case of LoL, you even have to unlock heroes and runes, which also takes a long time. Still LoL is the most successful game on both the casual and the eSports level. So clearly this isn't any issue in the MOBA genre. So I don't know, are FGC players just mega conservative or just big whiners?
And btw, remember Melee and how long it takes to unlock all characters and stages there? It might take as long as unlocking the custom moves in Smash4. Still no chars or stages were banned in early tourneys based on that argument. And what with all those new Melee players nowadays that get Gamecubes and need to unlock their stuff? They have to get through that, too.

 

[NSunderdog]

all fine. just wish 3 stock ...

 

[PurpleDolphin]

The thing about this debate that pisses me off the most, is that Nintendo could easily fix this problem since they ARE supporting the Smash community now. Just give us fully unlockable custom DLC or give us already unlocked save files! Plus, the bit about not being able to prepare for it is very true. If each player has to spend hours grinding for customs to prepare, that's hours wasted that could be spent getting better and pushing the overall skill of Sm4sh players forward. Thats why the DLC option (free or not) would be a much better idea then Nintendo supplying save files. Remember that they did this for their 3ds tourney, so it should not be a problem at all for them. Plus I would expect the DLC option to be much less work for them, and, if they charge a small fee on it ( lets say... $1?) they make money from it too... So why not?

 

[T0MMY]

its been that way for 8 years get used 2 it.

Says the guy who joined in... 2014? Waaat?
Guess I'll be the one to break the news to you: The heads of the Smash community are the ones who make the decisions for their scenes, most of us don't care how many newbs cry that Little Mac should be banned, it's not going to make us bat an eyelash.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Seeing Zer0's videos on custom moves, I'm definitely seeing some very good potential for them in competetive play, and many of them benefit the characters they are attatched to in good ways, like Kong Cyclone and Wizard's Dropkick.

Conversely, the customs for higher-level characters like Shiek, Diddy or Fox are good, but not a overall better alternative. It makes the meta more diverse by shaking up matchups that would otherwise be very one-sided, like Ganondorf vs. Diddy.

And who knows, maybe allowing custom moves in tournaments will let somebody finally defeat the almighty Bowser Challenge.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Says the guy who joined in... 2014? Waaat?
Guess I'll be the one to break the news to you: The heads of the Smash community are the ones who make the decisions for their scenes, most of us don't care how many newbs cry that Little Mac should be banned, it's not going to make us bat an eyelash.

Ya know im not sure u ever heard of making a new account huh?

 

[T0MMY]

Ya know im not sure u ever heard of making a new account huh?

I can't reasonably assume that's the case.
Fact still stands that hundreds of casuals' opinions don't really matter to the hardworking veterans who have been working behind the scenes for years just so there's a Smash Community at all.

 

[Registeel]

Nice, I wish this is how EVO was