Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Deleted member]

i liked the marth panel at apex 2014 with the token item to talk, and every time you went to talk i took it and started fallating it.

 

[ridemyboat]

What am I supposed to do when Sheik walks forward? Watching Pewpewu play against Kirbykaze in 2015, I see him continue dash dancing a lot. He usually gets caught by an ftilt and gets killed if he's above 80. Should I put myself in a position to dtilt the walk forward before it happens? I assume that if I'm late to recognize the walk forward, I should be the most concerned about dash attack, grab and boost grab. In that case, should I mix up escaping to platforms (loses stage control but probably safest), rolling (initially safest, but could mean getting grabbed if they expect it), shielding (beats dash attack), and doing wd back dtilt (loses to fair, shielding, but beats walk forward if it tippers)?

On an emotional level, I feel like I'm going to get run over by a truck when Sheik starts walking forward. How do you pressure this character? The best I can think of is to make them afraid of grab, and poke and zone them until you can get grabs.

 

[Dr Peepee]

i liked the marth panel at apex 2014 with the token item to talk, and every time you went to talk i took it and started fallating it.

That's how I knew you cared.

What am I supposed to do when Sheik walks forward? Watching Pewpewu play against Kirbykaze in 2015, I see him continue dash dancing a lot. He usually gets caught by an ftilt and gets killed if he's above 80. Should I put myself in a position to dtilt the walk forward before it happens? I assume that if I'm late to recognize the walk forward, I should be the most concerned about dash attack, grab and boost grab. In that case, should I mix up escaping to platforms (loses stage control but probably safest), rolling (initially safest, but could mean getting grabbed if they expect it), shielding (beats dash attack), and doing wd back dtilt (loses to fair, shielding, but beats walk forward if it tippers)?

On an emotional level, I feel like I'm going to get run over by a truck when Sheik starts walking forward. How do you pressure this character? The best I can think of is to make them afraid of grab, and poke and zone them until you can get grabs.

Space Fair/Dtilt or running grab. You don't even have to move forward into Dtilt, just crouch and then you can poke her if she gets close enough! You can't move forward with Dtilt unless you react very quickly to the walk because you'll be too close by the time the move comes out then. Fair you can jump and space with pretty easily on reaction and Sheik has to respect that as well. Adding in you can run in and grab from the crouch or Fair landing or out of DD and Sheik shouldn't be able to walk in on you.

 

[ridemyboat]

That's how I knew you cared.


Space Fair/Dtilt or running grab. You don't even have to move forward into Dtilt, just crouch and then you can poke her if she gets close enough! You can't move forward with Dtilt unless you react very quickly to the walk because you'll be too close by the time the move comes out then. Fair you can jump and space with pretty easily on reaction and Sheik has to respect that as well. Adding in you can run in and grab from the crouch or Fair landing or out of DD and Sheik shouldn't be able to walk in on you.

Thanks!

You don't even have to move forward into Dtilt, just crouch and then you can poke her if she gets close enough!

Assuming you landed a good dtilt on sheik, what are you looking for next? My assumption is that most sheik's are going to:

1. Wavedash back
2. Roll into you
3. Run in shield
4. Jump, either with the intention of needles or zoning with AC fair.
5. Dash attack

I feel like they aren't going to get close enough to get much mileage out of 3. The most common I see are 1, 2, and 4. In that case, are you looking to bait one of these options after you land a dtilt?

Fair you can jump and space with pretty easily on reaction and Sheik has to respect that as well.

What do you do to mixup your spacing with fair here? I usually find myself doing retreating fairs in this position, and maybe a drift forward if it's going to tipper. If they expect the retreating fair, I feel like they probably aren't as likely to shield, so it may be easier to drift forward.

Adding in you can run in and grab from the crouch or Fair landing or out of DD and Sheik shouldn't be able to walk in on you.

Oohh this sounds like something I need. After I land from fair, I usually just do a retreating dash dance. When they only walk forward a little bit, I find myself cornered. Thinking about it, I have this problem after dtilt too. If you interrupt the IASA with a walk forward and crouch, they're going to be less interested in whiff punishing the dtilt.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thanks!



Assuming you landed a good dtilt on sheik, what are you looking for next? My assumption is that most sheik's are going to:

1. Wavedash back
2. Roll into you
3. Run in shield
4. Jump, either with the intention of needles or zoning with AC fair.
5. Dash attack

I feel like they aren't going to get close enough to get much mileage out of 3. The most common I see are 1, 2, and 4. In that case, are you looking to bait one of these options after you land a dtilt?



What do you do to mixup your spacing with fair here? I usually find myself doing retreating fairs in this position, and maybe a drift forward if it's going to tipper. If they expect the retreating fair, I feel like they probably aren't as likely to shield, so it may be easier to drift forward.



Oohh this sounds like something I need. After I land from fair, I usually just do a retreating dash dance. When they only walk forward a little bit, I find myself cornered. Thinking about it, I have this problem after dtilt too. If you interrupt the IASA with a walk forward and crouch, they're going to be less interested in whiff punishing the dtilt.

Definitely watch matches for what Sheiks do after getting hit by Dtilt, it's very important. Most of the time you can feel okay moving forward after landing a Dtilt but not reliably doing another action. So Dtilt -> dash or Dtilt -> WD are what I would call Dtilt combos on hit and not Dtilt -> grab.

Definitely experiment with drift forward Fair more, I think that would help you.

Also you hit the big nail on the head, your constant dash back out of Dtilt/Fair is what is predictable and getting you blown up, so you just have to adjust it and explore other options. Don't fear Sheik!

 

[ridemyboat]

Definitely watch matches for what Sheiks do after getting hit by Dtilt, it's very important. Most of the time you can feel okay moving forward after landing a Dtilt but not reliably doing another action. So Dtilt -> dash or Dtilt -> WD are what I would call Dtilt combos on hit and not Dtilt -> grab.

Definitely experiment with drift forward Fair more, I think that would help you.

Also you hit the big nail on the head, your constant dash back out of Dtilt/Fair is what is predictable and getting you blown up, so you just have to adjust it and explore other options. Don't fear Sheik!

Thanks so much. Yeaaahh, constant dash back is a good example of bad understanding hurting Marth players. It seems like it's good for a while, but then when people stop trying to hit you every time you throw out a move it becomes really bad. I'll watch some pools and mid level play, then go back to watching the higher levels. Thanks again!

 

[bts.mongoose]

Alright, another more general/abstract question. How do you develop a strategy in a set? I've heard people describe it as starting with a base strategy and then adapting it to their opponent, which makes sense, but seems, as a novel concept, too vague to really be helpful. Would you be willing to give an example of what a base strategy should look like for Marth(i.e. how specific should it be, what kind of things should it focus on) as well as an example of how you would change your strategy when adapting to your opponent?

 

[Deleted member]

as an aside, its perfectly valid to challenge sheiks ground game directly without needing to dashdance. it might even be better since sheik is relatively well equipped to punish the weak part of DD, which is the dash away- sheik has marths run speed and actually better dash acceleration so she can definitely catch you. none of sheiks ground moves break the 10% clank rule any of marths ground moves, and provided you're able to clank one of them with jab or dtilt, you can generally just grab her with full length standing grab or a quick dashgrab without needing excess movement. as a bonus, its easy to buffer for ASDI down during your ground moves, so even if you do trade sometimes you can just grab her anyway. the only downside to this is that sheik can also buffer ASDI during her tilts, but she doesnt necessarily have the grab range to get you after provided you're still trying to get tip hits on the ground (generally stillt dtilt, ftilt works but doesnt have the generous IASA to make it "safe" like dtilt does). just make it a point to not lose to her ugly 2004 run up > shield grab strat, marths ground moves are still slow enough to where thats a real consideration. but as a generalized concept you can profitably challenge sheiks ground game directly, provided you hedge the prior nuances in your favor.

upon hit with dtilt, you want to use the IASA to leverage a grab. the outcomes here can change a LOT depending on sheiks damage, DI, where you hit blade vs tip, and whether she has to tech it or not. this is why its important to watch what she does. yes sometimes you can just go for it, but its obviously risky and waiting for like a fifth of a second to react properly is what this character is all about. remember to always be observing- its not that you HAVE to wait, its that you GET to wait, backed by having functionally double the range of the entire rest of the cast. use it properly.

sometimes you really have to go back to the drawing board over and over again to see how much dtilt really does for this character.

edit- i generally do not advocate using fair in this position, as opposed to kevin, specifically because i do not want to commit to losing my buffer ASDI, ground movement out of it, and precariously risk misplacing a blade hit into the opponents ASDI/CC and getting blown up for it. that said, sheik does have to be wary about your perfect fair as a conversion tool, and a tip hit definitely has enough knockback to break her ASDI at mid %s which can give you a tech chase situation, so once she reaches say 50-60% it probably becomes worth the risk? its a hard call. this would be one of those things that would be brilliant if someone tested in game for an exact percentage. same with dtilt. what % does a semi-stale fair/dtilt break sheiks ability to buffer ASDI? could be a turning point in the stock, where she is no longer able to leverage conversions on you with the game's defensive mechanics. someone plz test imo

 

[Taytertot]

I began writing kind of for fun.

Spoiler

The process of learning a thing is something I've been kind of interested in (and struggling with) for a while now.

What I claim to know is probably very faulty and a lot of that isn't even something I really know, but this should be good for organizing some thoughts and stuff.

It starts with a will.
Then you build a basis.
Then you stack one thing after another on that basis. Some things can be "completely stacked", fully learned. Most can't. At least as long as we remain human.

The will is probably the most important part. And something I struggle with lots. Sources for motivation are preferably innate. Outside motivators require at least somewhat constant engagement with the source. Ones that come from inside oneself are more constant, but require specific skills in order to control. There is no motivator that is completely (100%) in one or the other category.

This made the following questions pop up, to which I couldn't find answers.

What kind of motivators can be controlled? What kind of motivators are likely to lead to the greatest personal growth? What I mean is, give skills that can be effectively applied widely. How can one control motivators (on this I have vague ideas).

Sorry for not bothering with looking for resources etc. and coming straight here, haha.

while it seems that you are looking for a more psych oriented write up here i figured you might be interested in some of the science behind a human beings ability to learn as i have actually found the science to be a huge benefit to me in my drive and practice to improve. What happens when you are attempting to learn a skill is that a electrical pulse is sent from your brain to the given part of your body and generally when you are first starting to learn something this pulse "misfires" or inefficiently travels which causes one to fail to accomplish the skill correctly. As you continue to practice you build up myelin which effectively insulates the path that the electrical pulse travels on causing faster travel time and lessening the likelihood the the pulse will be inaccurately timed which in turn makes you succeed more consistently at the given skill.

there seems to be a fairly significant amount of evidence that practicing something as slowly as possible will cause you to develop the myelin most efficiently. Hopefully you find this interesting.

as an aside, its perfectly valid to challenge sheiks ground game directly without needing to dashdance. it might even be better since sheik is relatively well equipped to punish the weak part of DD, which is the dash away- sheik has marths run speed and actually better dash acceleration so she can definitely catch you. none of sheiks ground moves break the 10% clank rule any of marths ground moves, and provided you're able to clank one of them with jab or dtilt, you can generally just grab her with full length standing grab or a quick dashgrab without needing excess movement. as a bonus, its easy to buffer for ASDI down during your ground moves, so even if you do trade sometimes you can just grab her anyway. the only downside to this is that sheik can also buffer ASDI during her tilts, but she doesnt necessarily have the grab range to get you after provided you're still trying to get tip hits on the ground (generally stillt dtilt, ftilt works but doesnt have the generous IASA to make it "safe" like dtilt does). just make it a point to not lose to her ugly 2004 run up > shield grab strat, marths ground moves are still slow enough to where thats a real consideration. but as a generalized concept you can profitably challenge sheiks ground game directly, provided you hedge the prior nuances in your favor.

upon hit with dtilt, you want to use the IASA to leverage a grab. the outcomes here can change a LOT depending on sheiks damage, DI, where you hit blade vs tip, and whether she has to tech it or not. this is why its important to watch what she does. yes sometimes you can just go for it, but its obviously risky and waiting for like a fifth of a second to react properly is what this character is all about. remember to always be observing- its not that you HAVE to wait, its that you GET to wait, backed by having functionally double the range of the entire rest of the cast. use it properly.

sometimes you really have to go back to the drawing board over and over again to see how much dtilt really does for this character.

edit- i generally do not advocate using fair in this position, as opposed to kevin, specifically because i do not want to commit to losing my buffer ASDI, ground movement out of it, and precariously risk misplacing a blade hit into the opponents ASDI/CC and getting blown up for it. that said, sheik does have to be wary about your perfect fair as a conversion tool, and a tip hit definitely has enough knockback to break her ASDI at mid %s which can give you a tech chase situation, so once she reaches say 50-60% it probably becomes worth the risk? its a hard call. this would be one of those things that would be brilliant if someone tested in game for an exact percentage. same with dtilt. what % does a semi-stale fair/dtilt break sheiks ability to buffer ASDI? could be a turning point in the stock, where she is no longer able to leverage conversions on you with the game's defensive mechanics. someone plz test imo

damn if this was the PM roy boards id love to ask you how you feel this translates over. its a mu that im not particularly strong in right now, due to lack of practice probably, and wonder how much of this would be applicable. but i dont want to put this up in the wrong board (but the PM boards are dead and no one seems to be super interested in breaking down scenarios like this over there).
could i message you about this/ask you about it over in the PM roy boards?

 

[Deleted member]

while it seems that you are looking for a more psych oriented write up here i figured you might be interested in some of the science behind a human beings ability to learn as i have actually found the science to be a huge benefit to me in my drive and practice to improve. What happens when you are attempting to learn a skill is that a electrical pulse is sent from your brain to the given part of your body and generally when you are first starting to learn something this pulse "misfires" or inefficiently travels which causes one to fail to accomplish the skill correctly. As you continue to practice you build up myelin which effectively insulates the path that the electrical pulse travels on causing faster travel time and lessening the likelihood the the pulse will be inaccurately timed which in turn makes you succeed more consistently at the given skill.

there seems to be a fairly significant amount of evidence that practicing something as slowly as possible will cause you to develop the myelin most efficiently. Hopefully you find this interesting.


damn if this was the PM roy boards id love to ask you how you feel this translates over. its a mu that im not particularly strong in right now, due to lack of practice probably, and wonder how much of this would be applicable. but i dont want to put this up in the wrong board (but the PM boards are dead and no one seems to be super interested in breaking down scenarios like this over there).
could i message you about this/ask you about it over in the PM roy boards?

join the PM sheik discord, thats my usual hangout, lunchables is in there too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.re...ri8s/complete_list_of_all_character_discords/

 

[ridemyboat]

as an aside, its perfectly valid to challenge sheiks ground game directly without needing to dashdance. it might even be better since sheik is relatively well equipped to punish the weak part of DD, which is the dash away- sheik has marths run speed and actually better dash acceleration so she can definitely catch you. none of sheiks ground moves break the 10% clank rule any of marths ground moves, and provided you're able to clank one of them with jab or dtilt, you can generally just grab her with full length standing grab or a quick dashgrab without needing excess movement. as a bonus, its easy to buffer for ASDI down during your ground moves, so even if you do trade sometimes you can just grab her anyway. the only downside to this is that sheik can also buffer ASDI during her tilts, but she doesnt necessarily have the grab range to get you after provided you're still trying to get tip hits on the ground (generally stillt dtilt, ftilt works but doesnt have the generous IASA to make it "safe" like dtilt does). just make it a point to not lose to her ugly 2004 run up > shield grab strat, marths ground moves are still slow enough to where thats a real consideration. but as a generalized concept you can profitably challenge sheiks ground game directly, provided you hedge the prior nuances in your favor.

upon hit with dtilt, you want to use the IASA to leverage a grab. the outcomes here can change a LOT depending on sheiks damage, DI, where you hit blade vs tip, and whether she has to tech it or not. this is why its important to watch what she does. yes sometimes you can just go for it, but its obviously risky and waiting for like a fifth of a second to react properly is what this character is all about. remember to always be observing- its not that you HAVE to wait, its that you GET to wait, backed by having functionally double the range of the entire rest of the cast. use it properly.

sometimes you really have to go back to the drawing board over and over again to see how much dtilt really does for this character.

edit- i generally do not advocate using fair in this position, as opposed to kevin, specifically because i do not want to commit to losing my buffer ASDI, ground movement out of it, and precariously risk misplacing a blade hit into the opponents ASDI/CC and getting blown up for it. that said, sheik does have to be wary about your perfect fair as a conversion tool, and a tip hit definitely has enough knockback to break her ASDI at mid %s which can give you a tech chase situation, so once she reaches say 50-60% it probably becomes worth the risk? its a hard call. this would be one of those things that would be brilliant if someone tested in game for an exact percentage. same with dtilt. what % does a semi-stale fair/dtilt break sheiks ability to buffer ASDI? could be a turning point in the stock, where she is no longer able to leverage conversions on you with the game's defensive mechanics. someone plz test imo

Using the stale queue on ikneedata.com, even if the last three moves you used were fair and Sheik is ASDI'ing down and not crouching, then:

Tipper fair at 23% - cc is broken on Sheik at 23, so she can amsah tech.
Middle hit fair at 53% -- cc is broken
Weak hit fair at 77% -- cc is broken

For tipper dtilt at 57% -- cc is broken

I think another interesting question is -- when is it OK to go for a raw forward smash against Sheik? I'm guilty of trying to forward smash her while she's in the middle of battlefield, and usually don't get the tipper. I don't have set numbers here, but it looks like it isn't very worthwhile attempting that until 150%+, maybe higher. Because Sheik has such low horizontal air speed, hitting her when she's a battlefield platform length closer to the edge is worth about 40%. It works out to be around 75% if she's quite close to the corner. The platforms caaan add some safety I assume, depending on your percent.

I'd love to get grabs out of dtilt, but to do that she has to crouch or shield. What are you doing out of dtilt to condition her to do those? I think this is most likely where mixing up a second dtilt and drift forward fair add value. If they're concerned about a dtilt, they're not going to move forward. Crouching and shielding are relatively safe if your dtilt isn't moving forward, so they're obvious things to try against fair. This sounds to me like it's the general mixup, minus movement options.

Also, another question is - is doing two dtilts in a row from the same spot generally a bad Marth habit? It seems like it's awful, since if the first dtilt hits you don't get any stage control, and doing it the second time gives every character in the game time to punish you. I understand that it's important to wait, but what do you do while you're waiting after landing a dtilt? Do you buffer walk, dash forward, jump, or do you do one of these based on what you expect to need to cover? And if you whiff, then how do your followup decisions change?

 

[Deleted member]

fsmash is an inherently high risk move. the basic heuristic for fsmash is "go for it so long as she cant punish you". obv thats not necessarily optimal since a whiff will still allow sheik to reset to neutral from a bad position, but fsmash is also a very powerful tool and its kind of on you to use it wisely. keep in mind none of this is MU specific though.

 

[Sprenzy]

When people are saying if a smash or a grab is raw. What does it mean?

 

[Crooked Crow]

When people are saying if a smash or a grab is raw. What does it mean?

I haven't really heard of the term "raw" before, but moves will "stale" the more you gradually use them. I also didn't think grabs could stale, either. Maybe I misinterpreted the question? It's kind of vague.

 

[Prepare_Yourself]

Raw is an attack that comes out of nowhere in netrual, that you wouldn't expect to see work in neutral, or just without a typical setup and without being a typical punish. Watch ken play marth, he goes for raw fsmash all the time for some reason. I think it psyches people out.

 

[G--Man]

While we're on the subject of definitions, PP, you've talked previously about practicing and implementing "compound approaches". Is this referring to picking movement options/spacings that allow for a variety of useful moves depending upon how the enemy reacts? For example: Dash into Run cancelled Dtilt *OR* WD back fading Fair depending upon if the enemy will dashdance or jump. Or, perhaps, is this referring to approaches which integrate multiple moves/movements into a string/series of actions? For example: Dash -> run cancelled Dtilt into WD forward Ftilt.

I think there's definitely place for both of these concepts within Marth's neutral game but I am curious if you use the second example (strings of actions) in order to integrate certain "plays" or "tools" into your neutral game. Example: WD forward -> WD back -> WD forward -> Dtilt. I think this idea is also very applicable to talking about movement options and how unpredictable vs predictable they are. I imagine that practicing series of actions the one noted above is useful, but probably too predictable to use repeatedly in sets with competent players. Ergo, I'm guessing when you practice your goal more likely involves being able to integrate separate movement options and moves together without needing them to occur in a set order.

You've spoken previously about working very seriously on your movement to make it unpredictable or difficult to read from the opponents side. One of the problems I'm having with developing this is that I find it incredibly difficult to synthesize unpredictable strings of movement options that don't end up being repetitive/predicatble. When I tell myself to "move unpredictably" my mind draws a blank. How on earth did you practice such a skill? One of the solutions I've been working on is picking a series of movement options (WD back -> Dash forward -> WD back -> Dash forward) and then changing some of the internal movement options like this (WD back -> WD forward -> Dash back -> Dash forward).

To complicate this, as I'm sure you know, is that you have to be able to pick these options on the spot WHILE SPACING WITH RESPECT TO AN OPPONENT. This fundamentally changes what options you can REALISTICALLY pick because some of them could end up placing you into poor spots next to your opponent, right?

 

[Zorcey]

While we're on the subject of definitions, PP, you've talked previously about practicing and implementing "compound approaches". Is this referring to picking movement options/spacings that allow for a variety of useful moves depending upon how the enemy reacts? For example: Dash into Run cancelled Dtilt *OR* WD back fading Fair depending upon if the enemy will dashdance or jump. Or, perhaps, is this referring to approaches which integrate multiple moves/movements into a string/series of actions? For example: Dash -> run cancelled Dtilt into WD forward Ftilt.

I think there's definitely place for both of these concepts within Marth's neutral game but I am curious if you use the second example (strings of actions) in order to integrate certain "plays" or "tools" into your neutral game. Example: WD forward -> WD back -> WD forward -> Dtilt. I think this idea is also very applicable to talking about movement options and how unpredictable vs predictable they are. I imagine that practicing series of actions the one noted above is useful, but probably too predictable to use repeatedly in sets with competent players. Ergo, I'm guessing when you practice your goal more likely involves being able to integrate separate movement options and moves together without needing them to occur in a set order.

You've spoken previously about working very seriously on your movement to make it unpredictable or difficult to read from the opponents side. One of the problems I'm having with developing this is that I find it incredibly difficult to synthesize unpredictable strings of movement options that don't end up being repetitive/predicatble. When I tell myself to "move unpredictably" my mind draws a blank. How on earth did you practice such a skill? One of the solutions I've been working on is picking a series of movement options (WD back -> Dash forward -> WD back -> Dash forward) and then changing some of the internal movement options like this (WD back -> WD forward -> Dash back -> Dash forward).

To complicate this, as I'm sure you know, is that you have to be able to pick these options on the spot WHILE SPACING WITH RESPECT TO AN OPPONENT. This fundamentally changes what options you can REALISTICALLY pick because some of them could end up placing you into poor spots next to your opponent, right?

I'm not PP, but I think you're about on the right track with this. As an example, imagine you have three simple setups (henceforth Sets A, B, C) for positioning yourself relative to an opponent for a dtilt:

Set A: (WD forward > dtilt)
Set B: (WD back > crouch > dtilt)
Set C: (Dash back > run forward (cancel) > dtilt)

Notice that each of these three sets begins with a distinct movement option. Because of this, if you utilize a given set too often, an observant opponent will begin to associate your initial movement options with the options that proceed them later in that set. Say you have a habit of using Set A often, which would mean you almost always follow up a WD forward with a dtilt: in this case the opponent will begin to take the WD forward as a signal you're about to dtilt, and can react accordingly (like with an aerial). You probably don't want this (unless you're trying to condition your opponent, but that's some mindgame **** we should poke PP on sometime), so the solution is of course just to not always follow up your WD forward with a dtilt.

This is where the idea of integrating different option sets becomes practical. So instead of utilizing Set A in its entirety, you begin your setup with the initial movement of Set A (WD forward) and then follow it up with a series of movements from a different set, in this case I'll say Set B. This creates an entirely new set (Set D), which goes as follows:

Set D: (WD forward > WD back > crouch > dtilt)

And there you go. You suddenly have a new setup for a dtilt (which happens to work for beating the aerial that beats Set A).

Additionally you could take Set D and further integrate it with say, Set C to create yet another set (you can probably tell where I'm going with this), and so on and so on until you have so many options out of every given movement that the opponent can't distinguish a pattern.

And basically that's the principle of "unpredictable movement" as I understand it. It's actually almost a misnomer: because you're just mixing predetermined "predictable" movements into a lot of different sets and setups. But it still makes sense, because the idea is to make sure your opponent can't read what particular set you're using at any given time, which accomplishes the criteria of "unpredictable."

Now obviously you can't be thinking from a theory standpoint in the middle of a game, and that's why you have to formulate things like strategies and option sets prior to a match. The option sets in particular should be ingrained in your muscle memory to the point where you don't have to think about the actual movements at all, so you can just focus on how to string them together in a way to **** with your opponent.

To answer the question in short, you have to use predictable options in unpredictable ways.

 

[capusa27]

Hi, Dr Peepee

I have a couple of questions and a matchup hypothesis about another obscure mid-tier, Yoshi. I'm almost positive that Yoshi's double jump armor negates all base knock if the move is below 100 base knockback. Moves such as Falco's shine break Yoshi's armor because shine has greater than 100 base knockback, FYI.

This leads me to my questions about shield breaker and Yoshi playstyle/matchup.

1. Should Marth try to aggressively edgeguard Yoshi off stage with full hop charging shield breaker instead of the more common tipper arial/F-Smash?
2. If not, are there any other options besides waiting and going for tipper ariels? What do you think of grab?
3. Also, if my hypothesis gets your approval, should Marth try this strategy after up-throw?
4. Do you think that walling Yoshi out is a viable option, or should he adopt a more Falcon-like dash dance game?
5. Do you think Hugs was completely serious when he tweeted that Yoshi beats Marth? What do you think?
6. Would you ever go Marth vs Amsa?

Thank you. Sorry for the scrubby theory work, M :D. (Look closely at what I wrote. :D)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Alright, another more general/abstract question. How do you develop a strategy in a set? I've heard people describe it as starting with a base strategy and then adapting it to their opponent, which makes sense, but seems, as a novel concept, too vague to really be helpful. Would you be willing to give an example of what a base strategy should look like for Marth(i.e. how specific should it be, what kind of things should it focus on) as well as an example of how you would change your strategy when adapting to your opponent?

A base strategy for Marth vs Fox is to force Fox to jump/commit and then beat him out with CC/pivot grab/Fair. The way it specifically could adapt is the Fox is defensive so you have to use aggression/your own patience to force those exchanges. Then for this specific player they'd have their own way of playing defense that may be different or a combination of other Foxes that you've seen. It's kinda like that. Basically, just learn what works best in matchups and how players make decisions overall then quickly sort new opponents into those categories.

While we're on the subject of definitions, PP, you've talked previously about practicing and implementing "compound approaches". Is this referring to picking movement options/spacings that allow for a variety of useful moves depending upon how the enemy reacts? For example: Dash into Run cancelled Dtilt *OR* WD back fading Fair depending upon if the enemy will dashdance or jump. Or, perhaps, is this referring to approaches which integrate multiple moves/movements into a string/series of actions? For example: Dash -> run cancelled Dtilt into WD forward Ftilt.

I think there's definitely place for both of these concepts within Marth's neutral game but I am curious if you use the second example (strings of actions) in order to integrate certain "plays" or "tools" into your neutral game. Example: WD forward -> WD back -> WD forward -> Dtilt. I think this idea is also very applicable to talking about movement options and how unpredictable vs predictable they are. I imagine that practicing series of actions the one noted above is useful, but probably too predictable to use repeatedly in sets with competent players. Ergo, I'm guessing when you practice your goal more likely involves being able to integrate separate movement options and moves together without needing them to occur in a set order.

You've spoken previously about working very seriously on your movement to make it unpredictable or difficult to read from the opponents side. One of the problems I'm having with developing this is that I find it incredibly difficult to synthesize unpredictable strings of movement options that don't end up being repetitive/predicatble. When I tell myself to "move unpredictably" my mind draws a blank. How on earth did you practice such a skill? One of the solutions I've been working on is picking a series of movement options (WD back -> Dash forward -> WD back -> Dash forward) and then changing some of the internal movement options like this (WD back -> WD forward -> Dash back -> Dash forward).

To complicate this, as I'm sure you know, is that you have to be able to pick these options on the spot WHILE SPACING WITH RESPECT TO AN OPPONENT. This fundamentally changes what options you can REALISTICALLY pick because some of them could end up placing you into poor spots next to your opponent, right?

First off, I use compound actions to mean threatening actions and not individual inputs. So your secondary guesses are more what I'm talking about.

Practicing sequences of actions is fine. In fact, I do this a lot. The trick to being unpredictable here is to know every possible way your sequences lose and to come up with the countermeasures in advance. In your WD forward WD back WD forward Dtilt example, you could get hit on the WD forward, maybe hit above on WD back, and get outspaced on the Dtilt or hit on the forward WD before Dtilt comes out. So you also need to practice your modifications to your sequences and practice adapting them rapidly. This is the core of shadowboxing actually! Anyway, choosing which sequences you want is important because it will be your base so you want to pick what is strong for your character. This is how character understanding and deeper neutral are related.

There are other factors of unpredictability though. One of them is rhythm. If you play at a certain rhythm, then abruptly adjust it, your opponent who is following along with it will be following that old rhythm a bit longer after you break it. If you can master this and other unpredictability factors, you can control your opponent with your understanding of your character and movement itself.

Hi, Dr Peepee

I have a couple of questions and a matchup hypothesis about another obscure mid-tier, Yoshi. I'm almost positive that Yoshi's double jump armor negates all base knock if the move is below 100 base knockback. Moves such as Falco's shine break Yoshi's armor because shine has greater than 100 base knockback, FYI.

This leads me to my questions about shield breaker and Yoshi playstyle/matchup.

1. Should Marth try to aggressively edgeguard Yoshi off stage with full hop charging shield breaker instead of the more common tipper arial/F-Smash?
2. If not, are there any other options besides waiting and going for tipper ariels? What do you think of grab?
3. Also, if my hypothesis gets your approval, should Marth try this strategy after up-throw?
4. Do you think that walling Yoshi out is a viable option, or should he adopt a more Falcon-like dash dance game?
5. Do you think Hugs was completely serious when he tweeted that Yoshi beats Marth? What do you think?
6. Would you ever go Marth vs Amsa?

Thank you. Sorry for the scrubby theory work, M :D. (Look closely at what I wrote. :D)

Oh yeah I forgot I was messing with shield breaker vs Yoshi a long time ago. That's a good idea.

1. I think so but it can depend on percent.

2. Getting Yoshi before he lands or as he lands is still pretty good because it can lead to situations where he has to choose whether to attack or not(and if it's neutral whether he has to DJC or not).

3. Yep but sometimes I think Fthrow/Dthrow work better since Yoshi is forced to deal with an immediate mixup. On smaller stages/FD it might not matter as much.

4. I don't remember what I did, but walling works a little better iirc. Just be careful for DJC stuff. You might need both.

5. I have no idea, but based on testing I did with Twitch I think Marth wins. Regardless I need to test a lot of it vs Amsa.

6. Only to learn or if I was going all Marth at an event. Falco is just more straightforward vs Yoshi and it's somewhat likely he would do better against Yoshi anyway.

Lmao nice took me a minute.

 

[Kopaka]

A base strategy for Marth vs Fox is to force Fox to jump/commit and then beat him out with CC/pivot grab/Fair. The way it specifically could adapt is the Fox is defensive so you have to use aggression/your own patience to force those exchanges. Then for this specific player they'd have their own way of playing defense that may be different or a combination of other Foxes that you've seen. It's kinda like that. Basically, just learn what works best in matchups and how players make decisions overall then quickly sort new opponents into those categories.


First off, I use compound actions to mean threatening actions and not individual inputs. So your secondary guesses are more what I'm talking about.

Practicing sequences of actions is fine. In fact, I do this a lot. The trick to being unpredictable here is to know every possible way your sequences lose and to come up with the countermeasures in advance. In your WD forward WD back WD forward Dtilt example, you could get hit on the WD forward, maybe hit above on WD back, and get outspaced on the Dtilt or hit on the forward WD before Dtilt comes out. So you also need to practice your modifications to your sequences and practice adapting them rapidly. This is the core of shadowboxing actually! Anyway, choosing which sequences you want is important because it will be your base so you want to pick what is strong for your character. This is how character understanding and deeper neutral are related.

There are other factors of unpredictability though. One of them is rhythm. If you play at a certain rhythm, then abruptly adjust it, your opponent who is following along with it will be following that old rhythm a bit longer after you break it. If you can master this and other unpredictability factors, you can control your opponent with your understanding of your character and movement itself.

I shouldn't be surprised at how well you've articulated this stuff but yet I am lol. This stuff is inspiring because it's really making sense that when doing this stuff well, Marth is a terrifying character to play against. But horrible if you simply run up to a lasering fox and dtilt

I can see a future of a bunch of amazing Marth players that all lend credit to this thread for advancing the character one day

 

[Kaoak]

In general, are there any good ways to safely cover spot dodge and roll simultaneously? I find often times against certain characters particularly Sheik after a tech or an fthrow <7% I over-extend into options like roll, cc, spot dodge or shield and get hard punished. Do you think that it is better to try and punish techs on reaction or wait and punish the defensive option that usually comes next by dash dancing or holding crouch at mid/low percent. Are there any high reward options like nair or late fair that you use to cover specific tech options safely with low risk? What is your recommendation to reliably get a punish out of these situations without too much risk?

 

[Keebler]

Dr Peepee What are some things that you do to warm up your Marth before tournament (mentally, and physically)? Also, when practicing alone do you do any types of mental preparation before picking up the controller?

 

[AustinRC]

In general, are there any good ways to safely cover spot dodge and roll simultaneously? I find often times against certain characters particularly Sheik after a tech or an fthrow <7% I over-extend into options like roll, cc, spot dodge or shield and get hard punished. Do you think that it is better to try and punish techs on reaction or wait and punish the defensive option that usually comes next by dash dancing or holding crouch at mid/low percent. Are there any high reward options like nair or late fair that you use to cover specific tech options safely with low risk? What is your recommendation to reliably get a punish out of these situations without too much risk?

So reaction punish (grab) from throw is generally best in tech situations, typically you want to tech chase Sheik till like 15 or so percent and then upthrow/ juggle. But there is a nasty throw setups you can do to Sheik, Marth, Falcon, and some others but I forget... Gomenasaiiii

This only works if you get them to not tech or tech in place though, but if you punish them tech rolling/ notice when they like to tech in place it's fine. How it works is you fthrow, then sh nair into where they land if they tech in place or don't tech they'll get hit and you can follow up with fsmash. I'll post a link with a time stamp below here as a visual example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00kWf6lvDhU#t=8m45s

It looks a bit strange in that example but yeah, it works real good.

Also also, because I forgot to mention this before. But if you fthrow them you can dash towards them then react to their tech option then. Typically if they are at the edge of the stage you want to stay in place from where you fthrow/ dthrow them and then react from there.

 

[Syaith]

Dr Peepee , can I summon your thoughts on a classic (out-dated?) strategy. Obviously stage/matchup/situationally-dependent, marth can put up a wall of fairs/nairs/dtilts in neutral, but your neutral is very dd/dtilt based. It's a rule of thumb for marth to be non-committal in neutral, but at the same time the wall can be hard for the opponent to deal with and may provide a visual cue that conditions the opponent to respect marth's zone (https://youtu.be/YQFfcB5xMZg?t=14s and https://youtu.be/YQFfcB5xMZg?t=4m42s). M2k also incorporates zoning pivot fairs a lot in neutral. What do you think of marth's walling strategy (at least in moderation)?

2. Another quick question, why do marth's fade back sh uair after uthrow on fox at ~80% (https://youtu.be/RSRrGwSwLpw?t=15m38s). I heard different parts of uair have different trajectories, but I thought all moves have the same trajectory (even different hitboxes of uair)? My thinking is the fade back is to ensure the hard hit of uair.

 

[Dr Peepee]

In general, are there any good ways to safely cover spot dodge and roll simultaneously? I find often times against certain characters particularly Sheik after a tech or an fthrow <7% I over-extend into options like roll, cc, spot dodge or shield and get hard punished. Do you think that it is better to try and punish techs on reaction or wait and punish the defensive option that usually comes next by dash dancing or holding crouch at mid/low percent. Are there any high reward options like nair or late fair that you use to cover specific tech options safely with low risk? What is your recommendation to reliably get a punish out of these situations without too much risk?

You either get the reaction grab, or you recognize you can't/don't want to push that barrier and opt for option coverage and more damage instead. You can do this with aerials(like Mango) or Fsmash(which M2K and Mango have both done). I personally like Nair to cover no tech/tech in place at lower percents as it sets up for tipper Fsmash well and roll away usually gives me more stage position. Using Fair/Uair/even Dair are also pretty good and can give lots of damage/set up other punishes well.

Dr Peepee What are some things that you do to warm up your Marth before tournament (mentally, and physically)? Also, when practicing alone do you do any types of mental preparation before picking up the controller?

I visualize how I want to play. I practice doing basic movements and a few mixups out of those movements.

Dr Peepee , can I summon your thoughts on a classic (out-dated?) strategy. Obviously stage/matchup/situationally-dependent, marth can put up a wall of fairs/nairs/dtilts in neutral, but your neutral is very dd/dtilt based. It's a rule of thumb for marth to be non-committal in neutral, but at the same time the wall can be hard for the opponent to deal with and may provide a visual cue that conditions the opponent to respect marth's zone (https://youtu.be/YQFfcB5xMZg?t=14s and https://youtu.be/YQFfcB5xMZg?t=4m42s). M2k also incorporates zoning pivot fairs a lot in neutral. What do you think of marth's walling strategy (at least in moderation)?

2. Another quick question, why do marth's fade back sh uair after uthrow on fox at ~80% (https://youtu.be/RSRrGwSwLpw?t=15m38s). I heard different parts of uair have different trajectories, but I thought all moves have the same trajectory (even different hitboxes of uair)? My thinking is the fade back is to ensure the hard hit of uair.

Walling is excellent and I plan on using it more. Mixed with movement it gives even more options to control space/approach and the opponent has even more to consider when trying to beat you.

And you're right they just want to ensure the strong hit.

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee I think there's a difference between practicing Melee, and preparation to compete. Super Smash Bros Melee is not new to me, but competition in general is. What does preparing for a competition mean to you?

 

[capusa27]

Hi, Dr Peepee

This is going to be a series of questions for you to answer.

Recently, I was reading the "How to Edgeguard Pikachu" thread. I don't have Pikachu-related questions, per say, but rather questions about teeter D-Tilt.

1. Do you think teeter D-Tilt is a strong option to edgeguard Falcon, specifically at low percents, since Marth can crouch cancel Falcon's aerial onto stage, and it's very difficult for Falcon to sweetspot the ledge with up-b?

2. What do you think about this vs Fox/Falco's sweetspot up-b when they are below the ledge?

3. Do you think it has any uses against other characters?

4. What do you think about teeter D-Tilt as an option when Marth is on platforms and trying to regain center stage? I'm pretty sure this would only work on a few characters, but I would appreciate your opinion.

P.S. I discovered a couple of weeks ago that Marth's D-Tilt can go THROUGH Stadium's side ledges (the white ledges, if you're confused). Do you think Marths should use this more?

Thank you, Kevin.

 

[bts.mongoose]

since Marth can crouch council Falcon's aerial onto stage

THE CROUCH COUNCIL

 

[capusa27]

bts.mongoose

That's very funny! I guess I should be more careful with proofreading.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee I think there's a difference between practicing Melee, and preparation to compete. Super Smash Bros Melee is not new to me, but competition in general is. What does preparing for a competition mean to you?

This is a challenging question. As I'm not entirely sure how best to answer it at the moment, I'll just give you what you asked for and tell you how I prepare for competition.

I always live by the idea that one must "practice like you play" for tournament. This means if you aren't practicing with measured intensity then you can't expect to suddenly have that during tournament. We are what we repeatedly do. So what this means for my training is I realize many things will distract me at events. Fans, interviews, hype from crowds or videos, my opponents trying to psych me out, and so on. I must be deeply connected to the game and my core mission through it in order to focus despite these things. For my core mission, I want to bring a higher level of training and intensity to the metagame and bring focus back to theory and work instead of flashy stuff or just getting by. I also want to represent how a deep connection to the opponent and understanding of myself can be truly powerful in order to help others. To return to connection to the game, I build my mind for training physically and mentally. I do this by meditating and focusing on my desired outcomes and feelings as well as physical activity because I need a body that can support the work I will do. As for the gameplay itself, I take all of this I've done and make every action meaningful. I do my best not to waste a moment of training. I warm myself up with basic actions and remind myself of the importance of each before making progressively more complicated actions and practicing those. After I've done all of this, I usually shadowbox. The intensity of shadowboxing is something I don't believe I have discussed before, but it is basically practicing for intense situations while pushing myself mentally to develop new solutions on the fly. It simulates deep bracket competition. I imagine I'm playing Mango or Armada and they are playing extremely well, forcing me to come up with new solutions quickly since they're learning quickly. I imagine a crowd roaring or people discussing me, anything that can distract me. And I do my best to connect deeply to the game and embrace the thrill of competing and playing good opponents despite these things. It is my belief that if you train your mind every day for competition, the real thing should not give you any fear. When I was training hard, and when I will train hard again, that was the case for me. To give a simple answer to your question, I don't have a personal difference between practice and preparation for competition, but I also view all things as opportunities to strengthen one's abilities.

I hope this answers your question.

Hi, Dr Peepee

This is going to be a series of questions for you to answer.

Recently, I was reading the "How to Edgeguard Pikachu" thread. I don't have Pikachu-related questions, per say, but rather questions about teeter D-Tilt.

1. Do you think teeter D-Tilt is a strong option to edgeguard Falcon, specifically at low percents, since Marth can crouch cancel Falcon's aerial onto stage, and it's very difficult for Falcon to sweetspot the ledge with up-b?

2. What do you think about this vs Fox/Falco's sweetspot up-b when they are below the ledge?

3. Do you think it has any uses against other characters?

4. What do you think about teeter D-Tilt as an option when Marth is on platforms and trying to regain center stage? I'm pretty sure this would only work on a few characters, but I would appreciate your opinion.

P.S. I discovered a couple of weeks ago that Marth's D-Tilt can go THROUGH Stadium's side ledges (the white ledges, if you're confused). Do you think Marths should use this more?

Thank you, Kevin.

1. Well at low percents Falcon is pretty much always able to DJ to the edge, which avoids Dtilt. If you get him far enough to where DJ can't reach the edge then you don't need to Dtilt that close and shouldn't imo since Falcon can tech the Dtilt and then walljump aerial/airdodge/up-B into you.

2. It's okay for that. At Apex 2015 I just used WD forward Dtilt for this and it worked fine.

3. I could see it being situationally good against Marth/Sheik when there's a situation DJ aerial vs drop vs DJ watch comes up.
4. I didn't think you could do this on platforms, but either way I think Marth on platforms is underdeveloped(Dtilt on platforms is surprisingly useful sometimes) so I would say play with it if you think it can be good.

5. Yeah I'm not sure how much it matters since I think Marths that can edgeguard can do so regardless there and vice versa but I've done that some it's pretty cool.

THE CROUCH COUNCIL

LMFAO heck yeah sign me up

 

[Kopaka]

Thank you for that. That's all I can say.

 

[capusa27]

4. I didn't think you could do this on platforms, but either way I think Marth on platforms is underdeveloped(Dtilt on platforms is surprisingly useful sometimes) so I would say play with it if you think it can be good.

I've read that you have mentioned this fact a couple of times in this thread.

1. What do you think needs worked on the most for Marth's platform game?

2. Could you take anything from Falco's platform game and apply it to Marth? One example that I can think of is platform canceled aerials.

3. How important do you think Marth's platform cancelled F-Air (PCFA) is to improving his platform game? Could this be the foolproof answer to the ASDI platform escape?

4. Do you think PCFA has the most potential out of any PCA?

Thanks, Dr Peepee

 

[Uma]

I've read that you have mentioned this fact a couple of times in this thread.

1. What do you think needs worked on the most for Marth's platform game?

2. Could you take anything from Falco's platform game and apply it to Marth? One example that I can think of is platform canceled aerials.

3. How important do you think Marth's platform cancelled F-Air (PCFA) is to improving his platform game? Could this be the foolproof answer to the ASDI platform escape?

4. Do you think PCFA has the most potential out of any PCA?

Thanks, Dr Peepee

1. Not sure if there's video but if you watch plups Marth that's pretty much what you want. His shield drops are ridiculous and he uses them correctly. Basically hitting his sheild when he's on a platform is a free combo for him and I can't deal with it LOL. Also pewpewu has the best platform combos and edge cancels imo but lacks plups shield drops.

2. Platform canceled aerials are already a thing, I do it with fair and its p good.

3. I don't like to make things unnecessarily hard on myself but I'm sure someone like Zain could probably do it consistently yeah.

4. Again it's not potential people already do this stuff, but yeah I think fair and upair tend to work out best.

 

[Uma]

Is there video of PP shadow boxing anywhere and if so could you link it or tell me where to find it?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've read that you have mentioned this fact a couple of times in this thread.

1. What do you think needs worked on the most for Marth's platform game?

2. Could you take anything from Falco's platform game and apply it to Marth? One example that I can think of is platform canceled aerials.

3. How important do you think Marth's platform cancelled F-Air (PCFA) is to improving his platform game? Could this be the foolproof answer to the ASDI platform escape?

4. Do you think PCFA has the most potential out of any PCA?

Thanks, Dr Peepee

Yeah with WD Dtilt you can teeter and I know that exists but idk about dashing.

1. I'd like to see it used more for when he's cornered as well as when he has people cornered on some levels. In general it could just make zoning pretty cool too.

2. Taking zoning moves from Marth is kinda like lasering off of platforms I guess lol.

3. I honestly don't know if that's realistic to go for.

4. I'm not sure which are possible, but Uair would be pretty great too.

Is there video of PP shadow boxing anywhere and if so could you link it or tell me where to find it?

No video exists atm sadly but it's something I will definitely make in time =)

 

[ridemyboat]

Is there a point to trying to fight ice climbers? It seems to me like the character has obvious issues with platforms and moving forward. After discussion with friends, it seems like the best strategy for Marth is to:

1. Zone with full hop nair/fair. Giving up stage is OK, because ice climbers are bad at keeping it anyway, and you get the extra safety of being really hard to grab/cc dsmash.
2. Dtilt in front of their shield, they can asdi down until around 70 or 80 even if it tippers, but they can't do a true cc from crouch while wavedashing so they'll still go far away. If it lands, resume zoning or fullhop away if you're concerned about an immediate wavedash in, or move forward and take space.
3. If nana is dead and you're ahead in stocks, only pretend to fight them. This forces them to kill themselves since there's a clock, and will make the world a better place. Platform camp and pummel a lot, but be subtle about it so they don't catch on.
4. Occasionally jump forward with rising fair, and drift back to keep them on their toes. Double jump if they move forward.

I'm still working on understanding the specifics of the character to abuse it more.

 

[capusa27]

Hi, Dr Peepee

1. I'd like to see it used more for when he's cornered as well as when he has people cornered on some levels. In general it could just make zoning pretty cool too.

I quoted this portion of your post because I would like to hear your thoughts on zoning from Marth's perspective.

1. With Marth, is zoning more predictive than reactive? That is, do you strive to limit the opponent's attack options (what I would define as reactive), and make them shield due to hitboxes? Or do you strive to close off predetermined areas?
2. You talk about zoning from platforms, but do you still see potential in Marth's ground zoning game? What do you think about focusing on a more grounded zoning style with jab and side-b [NOTE: I know that these moves are situational and aren't that great by themselves] possibly to create more efficient kill confirms at high percents?
3. I don't think that I can mention zoning without mentioning Hungrybox. What makes his zoning game so potent and deadly? Do you see anything particularly useful like areal drift patterns, jump timings, or area coverage that Marths fail to do well with certain attacks or movement options?

Thank you.

 

[Uma]

Hi, Dr Peepee



I quoted this portion of your post because I would like to hear your thoughts on zoning from Marth's perspective.

1. With Marth, is zoning more predictive than reactive? That is, do you strive to limit the opponent's attack options (what I would define as reactive), and make them shield due to hitboxes? Or do you strive to close off predetermined areas?
2. You talk about zoning from platforms, but do you still see potential in Marth's ground zoning game? What do you think about focusing on a more grounded zoning style with jab and side-b [NOTE: I know that these moves are situational and aren't that great by themselves] possibly to create more efficient kill confirms at high percents?
3. I don't think that I can mention zoning without mentioning Hungrybox. What makes his zoning game so potent and deadly? Do you see anything particularly useful like areal drift patterns, jump timings, or area coverage that Marths fail to do well with certain attacks or movement options?

Thank you.

Not PP but I like answering questions, if he comes in later and schools me than so be it.

1. Zoning is predictive. You're throwing out the hitboxes, say a wall of fairs, either to establish your space or catch an opponent that's running in. Once you have your wall set up, you might find you have a read on them running in and then you can try and time a fair more reactively to catch them, but generally your doing these moves just to hold your ground and "zone" them out.

2. Ground zoning is definitely a thing. Your main tool for this is dtilt, not all dtilts have to be agressive or WD'd into. At low percents just crouching and dtilting is a great way to establish ground control and often forces your opponent to jump, which is great! I sometimes catch people with jab coming in if i think they'll short hop and don't have time to fair, but its not a staple of zoning or anything. And I wouldn't use side b because of its endlag and its kind of high risk low reward.

3. PP can probably help a lot more with this one, but I will say puff's bair is the best zoning move and the game and having 5 jumps and that bair just make her flat out better at zoning imo. Of course hbox is amazing at what he does but I don't think that playstyle applies to marth as much, he just has a different kind of zoning.

 

[AirFair]

Not PP but I like answering questions, if he comes in later and schools me than so be it.

1. Zoning is predictive. You're throwing out the hitboxes, say a wall of fairs, either to establish your space or catch an opponent that's running in. Once you have your wall set up, you might find you have a read on them running in and then you can try and time a fair more reactively to catch them, but generally your doing these moves just to hold your ground and "zone" them out.

2. Ground zoning is definitely a thing. Your main tool for this is dtilt, not all dtilts have to be agressive or WD'd into. At low percents just crouching and dtilting is a great way to establish ground control and often forces your opponent to jump, which is great! I sometimes catch people with jab coming in if i think they'll short hop and don't have time to fair, but its not a staple of zoning or anything. And I wouldn't use side b because of its endlag and its kind of high risk low reward.

3. PP can probably help a lot more with this one, but I will say puff's bair is the best zoning move and the game and having 5 jumps and that bair just make her flat out better at zoning imo. Of course hbox is amazing at what he does but I don't think that playstyle applies to marth as much, he just has a different kind of zoning.

Adding on a few things
1. I also agree that zoning is definitely more predictive, as it allows you to observe how an opponent handles the threatening of their options. You will find where they like to push for space, and how they anticipate and defend against any aggressive actions. Moves like rising fair and grab work better when you can anticipate these responses (or lack thereof), and that in turn makes you more threatening.
2. wd back dtilt is fun when you have someone cornered. As that makes them want to try and catch you moving back with an aerial.
3. Jiggs has an aerial dashdance with her float lol. I feel like a lot of the matchup is just getting her in the ground and punishing her for overextending with her moves, and if she's throwing them out at a safer spacing, see if you can get her to give up space or overextend. Still learning it obviously, but you have movements and attacks with good ranges to get responses if waiting isn't working out.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Is there a point to trying to fight ice climbers? It seems to me like the character has obvious issues with platforms and moving forward. After discussion with friends, it seems like the best strategy for Marth is to:

1. Zone with full hop nair/fair. Giving up stage is OK, because ice climbers are bad at keeping it anyway, and you get the extra safety of being really hard to grab/cc dsmash.
2. Dtilt in front of their shield, they can asdi down until around 70 or 80 even if it tippers, but they can't do a true cc from crouch while wavedashing so they'll still go far away. If it lands, resume zoning or fullhop away if you're concerned about an immediate wavedash in, or move forward and take space.
3. If nana is dead and you're ahead in stocks, only pretend to fight them. This forces them to kill themselves since there's a clock, and will make the world a better place. Platform camp and pummel a lot, but be subtle about it so they don't catch on.
4. Occasionally jump forward with rising fair, and drift back to keep them on their toes. Double jump if they move forward.

I'm still working on understanding the specifics of the character to abuse it more.

I would've said you have to fight ICs because they have a projectile before, but after watching M2K Wobbles and talking to a player that camps with Marth vs ICs I'll say this strategy can work too. I don't think it's what you have to do to invalidate or beat the character at all though.

FH is alright but since Marth is floaty ICs get time to prepare counterattacks on him. Well, I guess Ken and M2K have shown it's still fairly viable because of drift but I don't personally like it. If it's working okay for you then that's fine.

The big way I think about the matchup involves #2 on your list. Dtilt them since they really struggle to beat it. They have to move backward or try to roll behind you or jump over it to beat it and those are all great for Marth. If they get hit you just have to take advantage of the desync and set it back up. Mixed with SH Fair(rising or falling) I feel ICs shouldn't be able to win neutral much at all. However they often do because people don't know how desyncs work or that you can't really challenge blizzard or how ICs can move with blizzard out, etc. I suggest talking to ICs players and seeing their perspective on it. Most good ICs apparently agree that Marth is ICs' worst matchup due to Dtilt, so I really would recommend exploring it.

Hi, Dr Peepee



I quoted this portion of your post because I would like to hear your thoughts on zoning from Marth's perspective.

1. With Marth, is zoning more predictive than reactive? That is, do you strive to limit the opponent's attack options (what I would define as reactive), and make them shield due to hitboxes? Or do you strive to close off predetermined areas?
2. You talk about zoning from platforms, but do you still see potential in Marth's ground zoning game? What do you think about focusing on a more grounded zoning style with jab and side-b [NOTE: I know that these moves are situational and aren't that great by themselves] possibly to create more efficient kill confirms at high percents?
3. I don't think that I can mention zoning without mentioning Hungrybox. What makes his zoning game so potent and deadly? Do you see anything particularly useful like areal drift patterns, jump timings, or area coverage that Marths fail to do well with certain attacks or movement options?

Thank you.

1. It's both. More of a lean toward closing off predetermined areas I suppose, but you can always turn that into forcing the opponent to act or moving into their space or cutting off certain options, etc.

2. Jab and Dtilt actually can set up some pivot tippers at higher percents so those shouldn't be ruled out, in some matchups at some times anyway. Side B gets CC'd too much now by better players so I wouldn't even bother suggesting it anymore. Ground game and SH game are still very underdeveloped by Marth players I think! Mango's drift stuff is a good example of exploring this somewhat.

3. The main thing about Hbox is he's actually zoning by putting out moves to cover possible approaches but also sometimes to lead him a way in by discouraging approaches. It sounds like the same thing and in some ways it is but this is how Puff has to condition people to not act so she can go in, or frustrate them so they come in. Can't think of specifics off the top of my head though since I haven't done good analysis in a while.