Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[BlueX]

How does a double jump comes useful when using Marth? I seen PPMD use it a lot in APEX 2015.

Sorry for the doublepost here, my comp was being weird and didn't register that the first message sent. Could a mod please remove it? IDK how to do so myself if it's even possible.

You can report the double post you made.

 

[FE_Hector]

I don't understand your question.

 

[Hunybear]

I don't understand your question.

I believe he means what are the practical applications of double jumping as Marth, but that's pretty broad.
Things like recovery or maybe pressuring the top platform. I don't ever double jump unless I'm escaping a combo, recovering, or elongating my punishes. I'd have to put some thought into it.

Jumping and double jumping in neutral is generally a bad idea, but use you're own discretion. In some match ups you can SHFFL a little more liberaly.

When you recover save your double jump untill you are close to the stage. It makes your recovery a lot less linear.

 

[Dr Peepee]

shield breaker wins games

 

[CoCo_Jungle]

shield breaker wins games

How?

 

[Dr Peepee]

by killing fox after hitting him with fair

 

[CoCo_Jungle]

by killing fox after hitting him with fair

You better stop playing with me PP because I'm crazy, I'll start shield breaking after every fair on Fox

 

[FE_Hector]

You better stop playing with me PP because I'm crazy, I'll start shield breaking after every fair on Fox

Basically the idea is that aerial shield breaker has a hitbox way lower than it looks like there should be and it sends them at a pretty sweet angle (for you anyway) if you tip it. IDK the exact data because I've only seen it happen a few times, one of them I THINK was against Armada's Fox at EVO, of course by our resident God/homie, PPMD.

 

[BlueX]

I believe he means what are the practical applications of double jumping as Marth, but that's pretty broad.
Things like recovery or maybe pressuring the top platform. I don't ever double jump unless I'm escaping a combo, recovering, or elongating my punishes. I'd have to put some thought into it.

Jumping and double jumping in neutral is generally a bad idea, but use you're own discretion. In some match ups you can SHFFL a little more liberaly.

When you recover save your double jump untill you are close to the stage. It makes your recovery a lot less linear.

That is what i meant. I was asking when should a double jump should come useful with Marth or in neutral but i think i should of rephrased it or put in more detail.

I am sorry FE_Hector if the question seem confusing.

 

[CoCo_Jungle]

Basically the idea is that aerial shield breaker has a hitbox way lower than it looks like there should be and it sends them at a pretty sweet angle (for you anyway) if you tip it. IDK the exact data because I've only seen it happen a few times, one of them I THINK was against Armada's Fox at EVO, of course by our resident God/homie, PPMD.

While you are here let me ask you another shield breaker question which is what are the advantages of coming down with shield breaker rather then a ff aerial?

 

[rashssb]

I'm horrible at the IC's matchup. Any advice? Would you consider fox or marth to be better vs ic's?

 

[Vino]

by killing fox after hitting him with fair

That's some old ken stuff I love seeing revitalized.

Also, a question.

Recently I've been trying to have a much more proactive play style. By that I mean instead of playing far away from my opponent and waiting until they give me an opening (like most low-mid level players often do) I've been trying to create openings. I played a couple friendlies with KIrbykaze at a Canada local and he talking about using marth's range/pokes to get people into bad positions/doing things they don't want to do. I've also been trying to use my movement to get openings (example being run up wd down pivot grab baiting out a dash attack vs fox because they see the wd puffs and think you'll wd forward dtilt, something I saw you do vs armada's fox). What I'm curios about is how you use your aerial pokes so well as marth. In matchups vs cc heavy characters who are often cautious about jumping vs marth (like peach and sheik) I have some trouble using aerials to get openings (not so much vs full jump heavy foxes/falcos/falcons who i can swipe out of the air). This is more so because marth can't use his aerials for shield pressure the way spacies can. I understand the aerials are to get my opponent into a bad position and punish the position, but often my aerials feel kind of useless (shielding sheik, crouching puff, etc). What advice do you have for aerial placement and poking with my aerials?

 

[Hunybear]

I'm horrible at the IC's matchup. Any advice? Would you consider fox or marth to be better vs ic's?

Fox and marth are good vs IC. Just try not to do unsafe areals on shield.
D-tilt is amazing in this match up but you have to learn to D-tilt properly.
http://smashboards.com/threads/d-tilt-out-of-run-slow.423015/

 

[FE_Hector]

CoCo_Jungle Shield Breaker has advantages such as more range, higher KB scaling if tippered, and having odd affects on your aerial momentum.

rashssb Marth definitely has the tools to take down ICs, but it's a more explored MU on Fox's side. A few pages back in this forum, PPMD actually stated that he doesn't think you really even need to DD much in the MU because you're probably just gonna be spacing all their stuff out with fair and dtilt. It's only Blizzard that you can't contest as far as range goes, so just be cognizant of that.

 

[CoCo_Jungle]

FE_Hector Really more range then nair and fair?

 

[FE_Hector]

FE_Hector Really more range then nair and fair?

Definitely more than nair, and I'm fairly sure more than fair and definitely goes lower than fair does.

 

[A_Reverie]

How?

by killing fox after hitting him with fair

More specifically as an alternative to D-air or another F-air.

Over time it becomes second nature, but if you pay attention to your opponent's DI after you hit them with a F-air, you can make a decision on which move to follow-up with. Shield Breaker works if they DI to escape a "usual" follow-up. If you've ever tried to F-air again and have them end up just out of your reach, that's when Shield Breaker will work. I've also been using it to catch Peach floating underneath me in an edge guard situation by jumping out with a full hop and doing a turnaround Shield Breaker. This is obviously super risky though.

 

[CoCo_Jungle]

Definitely more than nair, and I'm fairly sure more than fair and definitely goes lower than fair does.

Yo that sounds really good, a really solid option. I never really see a lot of marth's use shield breaker seems like it has a lot of potential.

 

[CoCo_Jungle]

More specifically as an alternative to D-air or another F-air.

Over time it becomes second nature, but if you pay attention to your opponent's DI after you hit them with a F-air, you can make a decision on which move to follow-up with. Shield Breaker works if they DI to escape a "usual" follow-up. If you've ever tried to F-air again and have them end up just out of your reach, that's when Shield Breaker will work. I've also been using it to catch Peach floating underneath me in an edge guard situation by jumping out with a full hop and doing a turnaround Shield Breaker. This is obviously super risky though.

Why aren't more marths implementing this, do they just not know about this? Would shield breaker always be a better option then another fair then?

 

[CoCo_Jungle]

That's some old ken stuff I love seeing revitalized.

Also, a question.

Recently I've been trying to have a much more proactive play style. By that I mean instead of playing far away from my opponent and waiting until they give me an opening (like most low-mid level players often do) I've been trying to create openings. I played a couple friendlies with KIrbykaze at a Canada local and he talking about using marth's range/pokes to get people into bad positions/doing things they don't want to do. I've also been trying to use my movement to get openings (example being run up wd down pivot grab baiting out a dash attack vs fox because they see the wd puffs and think you'll wd forward dtilt, something I saw you do vs armada's fox). What I'm curios about is how you use your aerial pokes so well as marth. In matchups vs cc heavy characters who are often cautious about jumping vs marth (like peach and sheik) I have some trouble using aerials to get openings (not so much vs full jump heavy foxes/falcos/falcons who i can swipe out of the air). This is more so because marth can't use his aerials for shield pressure the way spacies can. I understand the aerials are to get my opponent into a bad position and punish the position, but often my aerials feel kind of useless (shielding sheik, crouching puff, etc). What advice do you have for aerial placement and poking with my aerials?

I would say that you can't really poke with an aerial, the reason you can effectively poke with dtilt is because if spaced correctly it is pretty safe and not to much of a commitment. Coming in with an aerial is a big commitment. The reason that PP makes it work is because he first approaches with Dtilt to poke, which leads his opponent to jump, either over or towards him with a SH aerial, in order to counter his Dtilt approach. After that is when you can approach a little safely with your aerials, swatting them out of the air with your aerial.

 

[FE_Hector]

CoCo_Jungle Please try not to multi-post like that. You can reply to/quote multiple messages in one message, so please just do that in the future.

 

[lokt]

Does anyone have advice on dealing with falco's lasers? I understand a lot of the options for when falco approaches after a laser(dashing back after taking the hit, side-b, jab, nair, fsmash), but idk how to approach/take space against falco's that laser in place.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Back up off the homie CoCo_Jungle

 

[A_Reverie]

Why aren't more marths implementing this, do they just not know about this? Would shield breaker always be a better option then another fair then?

The reason you don't see it used so often is because the situation you'll see it used in most doesn't come up that often. Seeing top level Marth play these days is already seldom enough compared to other characters.

Marth's follow-ups are more complex than having one option be better than another. There are situational uses for each one, and while there usually is a "best" there's never really an instance where one is always better. In the case of Shield Breaker, it's mainly used to cover someone who uses combo DI to escape a F-air follow up. Even then, there are times where it won't connect. You have to train a lot in order to get a feel for when it will work and when it won't, that way you won't ever go for it and end up whiffing.

Does anyone have advice on dealing with falco's lasers? I understand a lot of the options for when falco approaches after a laser(dashing back after taking the hit, side-b, jab, nair, fsmash), but idk how to approach/take space against falco's that laser in place.

There is a lot to learn for any Marth player on this topic, both on the theory side of things and on a technical level.

I recommend watching a lot of this matchup. Slow it down if you need to, but pay attention to how each player treats laser pressure. Watch how it affects the outcome of the match, the pace, and pay close attention to what the Falco player is gaining by using lasers.

Learn when to input your next movement after getting hit with a laser. It's easy to lose control after taking the hit if you aren't careful, and getting your movement scrambled up is going to get you punished. Optimize how you wavedash out of shield, both toward and away from Falco. Don't shield-grab. There's a lot to go over, but it's very useful to learn how to watch this matchup and effectively analyze and learn from it.

 

[Sycorax]

What I'm curios about is how you use your aerial pokes so well as marth... What advice do you have for aerial placement and poking with my aerials?

You might try run forward -> jump back ->retreating fair. You can see DruggedFox use it a lot in this set vs DJ Nintendo, specifically at 5:19, 5:24, and 5:30.

 

[herbology]

Would it be optimal to replace wavedash down, for use as a bait out of dd into a reaction, with an empty/flicker pivot considering wavedash takes 15 frames with lag?
I've been practing pivots lately and achieving ~85% consistency with them for pivot dtilt, ftilt, and aerials, with much less consistency with utilt.
Kind of want to know if this practice has been for naught.

 

[FE_Hector]

Would it be optimal to replace wavedash down, for use as a bait out of dd into a reaction, with an empty/flicker pivot considering wavedash takes 15 frames with lag?
I've been practing pivots lately and achieving ~85% consistency with them for pivot dtilt, ftilt, and aerials, with much less consistency with utilt.
Kind of want to know if this practice has been for naught.

Do whatever fits your style the best. Honestly, when I bait stuff out of a DD, it's typically with a WD either forwards or back depending on what my opponents' in the middle of doing.

 

[A_Reverie]

Do whatever fits your style the best. Honestly, when I bait stuff out of a DD, it's typically with a WD either forwards or back depending on what my opponents' in the middle of doing.

Another reason I'm not a fan of the pivot tilt options is because the difficulty in execution doesn't lend well to Marth's "flow" of movement, which is easily the most effective way to carry your threat. Transitioning from each movement option smoothly is very important. Proper dash dancing and wavedashing allows Marth to threaten a large amount of space without even swinging the sword.

 

[FE_Hector]

Adding on to what A_Reverie said, doing something in practicing is far different from doing it in the middle of a match. PPMDs favored pivot grabs are not that difficult to input, but most other pivot options are if you're actually doing something.

 

[xianglongfa]

Posted this on Reddit in the ask summit players questions thread, but I don't think anyone saw it:

I have some concerns about the Fox vs Marth matchup that led me to believe that matchup is heavily skewed in Fox's favor.I'd love it if any of you could chime in and help solve some of the riddles that have been spinning around in my head.

Punish Game

We know that when Marth u-throws Fox onto a platform, Fox can CC/ASDI down Marth's unstaled u-air to 58% pre-hit(staled even higher) and tech in place so that Marth can't follow up at all after u-air. Fox can even do this: http://smashboards.com/threads/double-stick-di-out-of-marths-platform-combos.403279/ To me it seems like this makes Marth's combo game very weak on Fox until 60% onwards because Marth would have to either guess on higher/wider platforms like battlefield/dreamland with other moves like u-tilt OR rely more on f-throw techchases until fox is at mid percents(extremely difficult and also unreliable b/c fox can DI to the edge and jump out). Furthermore, when Fox gets to the ledge, Marth has a hard time punishing Fox at all because of his insane options out of invincible ledgedash. Marth can't even edgeguard Fox's sweetspotted illusions.
Punish game looks even more troubling when you consider Fox's side. Fox can cover Marth's high recoveries easily with bair, and can edgehog his sweetspot up-b with back jump ledge refreshes to force Marth to land on stage. His upthrows lead into practically guaranteed up-airs even if Marth can SDI( Fox can aim up-air either deep enough so that Marth needs 2 SDI inputs to avoid 2nd hit OR do single hit u-air) Marth also gets pinned down at the edge like no other and considering how often Marth gets pushed there, this is a huge problem. Fox can crouch and react to nearly all of Marth's ledge options very comfortably until mid-high percents or just zone with bair.

Neutral Game

In the neutral game, Marth has no confirms into grab, especially when Fox is good at holding down, weakening Marth's aerials and dtilt when interacting with Fox on the ground, and also making Fox's top platform camping nearly impossible to play cleanly against.(Watch how often Armada/Leffen win neutral against PPMD/M2K when camping top platform) In essence, this is because even if marth got a hit from sharking underneath top platform, Fox can just shield drop and trade that damage for positioning,or back-air if Marth is too close.

When Fox has stage control, he can easily close distance with threat of nair that can't be CC grabbed past 30%, and can zone Marth extremely effectively with threat of CC. Marth's options to escape through platforms or to the edge are extremely poor when he's cornered. In this position, if Marth's only good option to go towards the center of the stage with his ground movement, it becomes much more predictable for the fox to react to. Marth has to be afraid of a greater variety of moves that can almost all lead into confirms like shine, grab, or straight into a juggle.

My Questions:

Dr Peepee Why is this matchup considered by many of the top players (including you PP), to be roughly even or Marth favored? What can Marth do specifically to address some of the issues in neutral and punish game against Fox that I brought up?

 

[FE_Hector]

Posted this on Reddit, but I'm not sure if Kevin saw it:

I have some concerns about the Fox vs Marth matchup that led me to believe that matchup is heavily skewed in Fox's favor.I'd love it if any of you could chime in and help solve some of the riddles that have been spinning around in my head.

Punish Game

We know that when Marth u-throws Fox onto a platform, Fox can CC/ASDI down Marth's unstaled u-air to 58% pre-hit(staled even higher) and tech in place so that Marth can't follow up at all after u-air. Fox can even do this: http://smashboards.com/threads/double-stick-di-out-of-marths-platform-combos.403279/ To me it seems like this makes Marth's combo game very weak on Fox until 60% onwards because Marth would have to either guess on higher/wider platforms like battlefield/dreamland with other moves like u-tilt OR rely more on f-throw techchases until fox is at mid percents(extremely difficult and also unreliable b/c fox can DI to the edge and jump out). Furthermore, when Fox gets to the ledge, Marth has a hard time punishing Fox at all because of his insane options out of invincible ledgedash. Marth can't even edgeguard Fox's sweetspotted illusions.
Punish game looks even more troubling when you consider Fox's side. Fox can cover Marth's high recoveries easily with bair, and can edgehog his sweetspot up-b with back jump ledge refreshes to force Marth to land on stage. His upthrows lead into practically guaranteed up-airs even if Marth can SDI( Fox can aim up-air either deep enough so that Marth needs 2 SDI inputs to avoid 2nd hit OR do single hit u-air) Marth also gets pinned down at the edge like no other and considering how often Marth gets pushed there, this is a huge problem. Fox can crouch and react to nearly all of Marth's ledge options very comfortably until mid-high percents or just zone with bair.

Neutral Game

In the neutral game, Marth has no confirms into grab, especially when Fox is good at holding down, weakening Marth's aerials and dtilt when interacting with Fox on the ground, and also making Fox's top platform camping nearly impossible to play cleanly against.(Watch how often Armada/Leffen win neutral against PPMD/M2K when camping top platform) In essence, this is because even if marth got a hit from sharking underneath top platform, Fox can just shield drop and trade that damage for positioning,or back-air if Marth is too close.
On offense, Fox can close distance with lasting hitboxes that can't be CC'd past 30%, and can zone Marth extremely effectively with threat of CC. Marth's options to escape through platforms or to the edge are extremely poor for his positioning. Furthermore, if Marth's only good option to go towards the center of the stage with his ground movement, it becomes much more predictable for the fox to react to. Marth has to be afraid of a greater variety of moves that can almost all lead into confirms like shine, grab, or straight into a juggle.

My Questions:

Why is this matchup considered by many of the top players (including you PP), to be roughly even or Marth favored? What can Marth do specifically to address some of the issues in neutral and punish game against Fox that I brought up?

Because humans aren't TAS. On FD (and DL/FoD to lesser extents), you can completely murder Fox with CGing, as M2K has proven time an time again.

Neutral Game

I've actually posted extensively about Marth's neutral game, specifically his DDing. Basically, DDing makes it much harder for people to know where you're going and what your intents are. Your insane DD range makes it really difficult for your opponent to properly approach you in close quarters because of pivot grab, like PPMD has shown before. Also, Marth's mere presence, even from a distance, threatens dtilt, fair or grab, all of which definitely have their use in the MU. Honestly, if we were to reverse your argument, Fox has nothing guaranteed on Marth either. There's no guarantee for anybody to be able to start their combos unless you're a Falco with insane lasering skills and can get in a laser shine that starts up a pillar.

Punish Game

Once again, humans are not TAS. While the DSDI is possible for avoiding the chains, many people miss it and Marth's like PPMD actually mix up when they do the uair to help prevent this. Overall, both characters have so many options that completely murder the other that it becomes ~50-50 when you consider their capabilities in the neutral game.

On a side note, Marth CAN edgeguard Fox's sweetspotted Illusion. Just WD back into the edge for invincibility and then press R to roll back up. If you do everything right, you avoid literally every hitbox and rolling options make it OP cuz of how long the game thinks you hold onto the ledge. This is even better if you're past 100%.

 

[Sycorax]

nair that can't be CC'd past 30%

Marth can CC Fox's nair until 75.78%. ASDI-only stops working at 37.62%

 

[xianglongfa]

Sycorax

My bad, I meant CC grab. Marth stops getting those around that percent b/c he's pushed too far back.

FE_Hector :

Marth is only able to edgeguard fox's sweetspot illusion on a hard read, and if fox instead f-b's onto the stage, Marth has just traded his edgeguard for being on the edge >.>

Platform DSDI is actually extremely easy to perform consistently. So is holding down and teching in place. Considering that Armada can powershield lasers and aerials into d-smash, these reactions on platform should be child's play.

If you carefully observe any videos where Marth is actually getting extended combos on fox from underneath the platform with up air it's usually completely the fault of the fox player for not holding down, not teching, or trying too hard to jump away when they have frame advantage and can just crouch and shield drop. Often times the issue is fox wanting to avoid getting hit instead of trading a hit for frame advantage to escape any further chance of being comboed.

I really think Marth needs to get consistent techchases with f-throw to combat Foxes that know what to do when thrown to a platform. F-throw techchases make fox easier to punish and cover near the edge with f-smash and if they tech near center stage, u-throw becomes a good option again b/c they can't immediately DI to a platform.

 

[A_Reverie]

xianglongfa Marth can do a very low, SHFFL tipper U-air straight into tipper U-tilt and connect with both within a very short period of time, which does quite a lot of damage and usually causes the DSDI to fail. Marth shouldn't be trying to use tipper U-air to extend combos on platforms at too low percentages (especially not below 30%) except in the case I just mentioned.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Posted this on Reddit in the ask summit players questions thread, but I don't think anyone saw it:

I have some concerns about the Fox vs Marth matchup that led me to believe that matchup is heavily skewed in Fox's favor.I'd love it if any of you could chime in and help solve some of the riddles that have been spinning around in my head.

Punish Game

We know that when Marth u-throws Fox onto a platform, Fox can CC/ASDI down Marth's unstaled u-air to 58% pre-hit(staled even higher) and tech in place so that Marth can't follow up at all after u-air. Fox can even do this: http://smashboards.com/threads/double-stick-di-out-of-marths-platform-combos.403279/ To me it seems like this makes Marth's combo game very weak on Fox until 60% onwards because Marth would have to either guess on higher/wider platforms like battlefield/dreamland with other moves like u-tilt OR rely more on f-throw techchases until fox is at mid percents(extremely difficult and also unreliable b/c fox can DI to the edge and jump out). Furthermore, when Fox gets to the ledge, Marth has a hard time punishing Fox at all because of his insane options out of invincible ledgedash. Marth can't even edgeguard Fox's sweetspotted illusions.
Punish game looks even more troubling when you consider Fox's side. Fox can cover Marth's high recoveries easily with bair, and can edgehog his sweetspot up-b with back jump ledge refreshes to force Marth to land on stage. His upthrows lead into practically guaranteed up-airs even if Marth can SDI( Fox can aim up-air either deep enough so that Marth needs 2 SDI inputs to avoid 2nd hit OR do single hit u-air) Marth also gets pinned down at the edge like no other and considering how often Marth gets pushed there, this is a huge problem. Fox can crouch and react to nearly all of Marth's ledge options very comfortably until mid-high percents or just zone with bair.

Neutral Game

In the neutral game, Marth has no confirms into grab, especially when Fox is good at holding down, weakening Marth's aerials and dtilt when interacting with Fox on the ground, and also making Fox's top platform camping nearly impossible to play cleanly against.(Watch how often Armada/Leffen win neutral against PPMD/M2K when camping top platform) In essence, this is because even if marth got a hit from sharking underneath top platform, Fox can just shield drop and trade that damage for positioning,or back-air if Marth is too close.

When Fox has stage control, he can easily close distance with threat of nair that can't be CC grabbed past 30%, and can zone Marth extremely effectively with threat of CC. Marth's options to escape through platforms or to the edge are extremely poor when he's cornered. In this position, if Marth's only good option to go towards the center of the stage with his ground movement, it becomes much more predictable for the fox to react to. Marth has to be afraid of a greater variety of moves that can almost all lead into confirms like shine, grab, or straight into a juggle.

My Questions:

Dr Peepee Why is this matchup considered by many of the top players (including you PP), to be roughly even or Marth favored? What can Marth do specifically to address some of the issues in neutral and punish game against Fox that I brought up?

Punish game:

You actually already answered part of this! Marth needs to throw tech chase more. Tech chase is becoming the meta it seems =p

Anyway, I think calling out more rolls to the edge of platforms with Utilt/especially Fsmash when possible also discourages using the holding down strategy. Between this and how much damage you can gain with tech chasing(tech chasing can lead to tippers or aerials btw!) there is plenty of room for punish innovation and damage but it's just harder.

For Fox, we can SDI his Uair but he can position/time himself to make that harder to do plus as you mentioned he can pseudo-combo us well. I also think Fox gimps Marth better than vice versa.

Anyway, I think Marth has a slight punish advantage because his stuff is still more guaranteed(it's also harder though so if you want to make that argument that would be fine). So I just say it's even.


Neutral game:

Fox's platform game is mad good lol no arguing against that. However, I think Marth wins on the ground. So Fox has to use platforms. This means Marth can spend lots of energy figuring out how to read Fox's platform game. Here is something important to consider: Fox can only dash so far when on a platform. Marth has many different ground positions to attack from! True enough Fox can jump at many points and analog jump + drift to get to many different places, but that doesn't change he has only so many starting positions and you can control him based on this. Yes, you will probably not get a huge combo from this, but that isn't the point. The point is to discourage Fox from using the platforms. This is easier on say FoD than on DL but I firmly believe there is a harassment strategy vs platform Fox on all levels. I've tested many things just playing with Twitch over the years and the meta is still behind what Fox can do to Marth from platforms as well as what Marths do to Foxes up there.

Anyway, yeah Marth sucks without stage control. The thing is, he can push Fox pretty hard when has it. It's very hard(still doable) on DL but on every other level it's very possible just complex due to platforms(besides FD. Fair is still bigger than Fox's stuff and Marth can still shift his position easily.


Your question:

It's even because punish and neutral is evenish. There are admittedly a few stage matchups I don't fully know(some PS nuances, some BF stuff, and FoD is strange) but my feeling and experience leads me to believe it's even right now.

 

[lokt]

Dr Peepee
I noticed that at the Summit you counterpicked Armada to Yoshi's as marth, even though you've said that yoshi's is one of the worst stages for the matchup. Were you just playing against Armada's playstyle, or have you learned something new about the stage?

 

[xianglongfa]

Dr Peepee Thanks so much for the reply! We haven't chatted in a while Kevin, when can we set something up?

With regard to Fox's platform game. Fox doesn't have to react to where Marth attacks from as much as he just wants to be holding down/shielding whenever Marth jumps. Until mid-high percents his crouch->shielddrop or straight shield-drop game have extremely high payoff relative to risk b/c he can get below Marth for full hopping or double jumping. I don't think Foxes push their platform game enough given how much they get off of it. Fox can either shielddrop preemptively by reacting to Marth's jump animation, or just crouch/shield and reactively drop down. Fox being below Marth is such a strong position that he should be willing to play this wager again and again without being discouraged.

A huge issue on a human level that I see is that Marth's missed combos often end up with a huge reversal b/c fox has frame advantage on the miss and this is not true vice versa b/c Marth's only solid confirm is a direct grab.(which he rarely has enough frame advantage for, leading into a mixup situation) In other cases if Marth misses or gets a weak hit juggle on platforms that is also a huge problem for Marth b/c of his resultant positioning relatively to Fox. This is a a BIG DEAL in this matchup b/c playing 4 perfect stocks in terms of followups and punishes is pretty impractical, but giving free punishes to the opponent is not ok in today's metagame.

Something that Marth can do to minimize get-up shine is to try to time his dash in after f-throw so that Marth can react to Fox's tech in place with jc grab while outranging fox's shine.(in case you grab late) Marth can also hold down at the same time he tries the jc grab for ASDI down in case fox tries to jab and you time the grab too late. This tactic can be applied pretty universally when Marth goes for JC grab. Just hold down at the same time. There's no reason not to, and it's a nice safety net in case fox tries stuff like jab/utilt/dtilt/ftilt to stuff Marth's approach. If you combine this with being mentally prepared to SDI Fox's d-air in case Fox jumped, approaching with grab doesn't seem as bad as before.

Regarding Marth's techchase on Fox: In the position where Marth grabbed fox and is close to the edge, Fox can DI to ledge cancel Marth's f-throw which causes a mixup situation for Marth where he has to mixup f-throw with u-throw. This also means that Marth's followup is far from guaranteed, even if he can execute f-throw techchasing perfectly on reaction.

Also PP, you gotta start going offstage to hit fox's up-b more. I really think that you can react to them doing up-b high and cover it on reaction. IIRC, Armada only really illusioned once or twice but up-b'd way more.

Sorry about how disorganized this whole post was >.<

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee
I noticed that at the Summit you counterpicked Armada to Yoshi's as marth, even though you've said that yoshi's is one of the worst stages for the matchup. Were you just playing against Armada's playstyle, or have you learned something new about the stage?

I played the style some and was generally curious.

Dr Peepee Thanks so much for the reply! We haven't chatted in a while Kevin, when can we set something up?

With regard to Fox's platform game. Fox doesn't have to react to where Marth attacks from as much as he just wants to be holding down/shielding whenever Marth jumps. Until mid-high percents his crouch->shielddrop or straight shield-drop game have extremely high payoff relative to risk b/c he can get below Marth for full hopping or double jumping. I don't think Foxes push their platform game enough given how much they get off of it. Fox can either shielddrop preemptively by reacting to Marth's jump animation, or just crouch/shield and reactively drop down. Fox being below Marth is such a strong position that he should be willing to play this wager again and again without being discouraged.

A huge issue on a human level that I see is that Marth's missed combos often end up with a huge reversal b/c fox has frame advantage on the miss and this is not true vice versa b/c Marth's only solid confirm is a direct grab.(which he rarely has enough frame advantage for, leading into a mixup situation) In other cases if Marth misses or gets a weak hit juggle on platforms that is also a huge problem for Marth b/c of his resultant positioning relatively to Fox. This is a a BIG DEAL in this matchup b/c playing 4 perfect stocks in terms of followups and punishes is pretty impractical, but giving free punishes to the opponent is not ok in today's metagame.

Something that Marth can do to minimize get-up shine is to try to time his dash in after f-throw so that Marth can react to Fox's tech in place with jc grab while outranging fox's shine.(in case you grab late) Marth can also hold down at the same time he tries the jc grab for ASDI down in case fox tries to jab and you time the grab too late. This tactic can be applied pretty universally when Marth goes for JC grab. Just hold down at the same time. There's no reason not to, and it's a nice safety net in case fox tries stuff like jab/utilt/dtilt/ftilt to stuff Marth's approach. If you combine this with being mentally prepared to SDI Fox's d-air in case Fox jumped, approaching with grab doesn't seem as bad as before.

Regarding Marth's techchase on Fox: In the position where Marth grabbed fox and is close to the edge, Fox can DI to ledge cancel Marth's f-throw which causes a mixup situation for Marth where he has to mixup f-throw with u-throw. This also means that Marth's followup is far from guaranteed, even if he can execute f-throw techchasing perfectly on reaction.

Also PP, you gotta start going offstage to hit fox's up-b more. I really think that you can react to them doing up-b high and cover it on reaction. IIRC, Armada only really illusioned once or twice but up-b'd way more.

Sorry about how disorganized this whole post was >.<

Marth can space on both shield and holding down so that's fine. He can also bait both actions without attacking which is really nice.

That punish part is true but you can minimize it with how you go for things and also option choices(aerials being safer than grabs on tech chasing for example) and of course minimize risk through training.

Tech chasing comment: yes but then Fox is less prepared because he can't react too easily and Marth can have reliable counters ready. Also grabbing in that position can be avoided from earlier interactions or you can just choose to hit them instead.

Yeah I should go out to hit upb more. I don't think if I'm thinking then that matters as much but yeah.

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee So, I did watch your set in bracket vs Westballz, and I'm wondering what you think of it. I know that you said a little while ago that you're only starting to figure out how the MU works from Marth's side, and it's a MU that's been stumping me for a while, too, especially against exceptionally good Falco's. What did that set in bracket teach you about the MU in general? Also, if you've already analyzed your challenge set vs Axe, what does Marth need to do to beat Pikachu? It just looks like you potentially learned so much about two of the least explored high-tier MUs for Marth, and data's always good.

Also, on a completely separate note, do you think that you would be willing to have a thread similar to this one for Falco? I feel like a lot of players would benefit from it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

i.....don't want to talk about summit for a while. still bothered by it.

i have a falco thread but I don't believe I can control that thread as easily.

I just need to get my energy issues resolved then I can teach much more about everything.