Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kotastic]

He probably meant giving up center in terms of me going in when he's cornered. I don't really remember what went wrong, but I do remember cornering Falcon didn't go so well. I will have to try out the fair pressure you suggested to see how it works.

Also in my current approach to the mu, I don't really swing much unless I have a read when they're gonna jump. I typically go for d-tilts if they don't jump from my WD back d-tilt fakeout. I like to be up front in Falcon's face in areas where he can't cover well and has to hard read with a stomp or something as opposed to playing the TR game.

"It's much easier to just wait to not swing than to try and find good ways to swing and approach, but if you figure it out you'll have a leg up on many players since you can put pressure on when you need to in a difficult matchup."
Is that really the key to...becoming a better player really? Do you mean to simply observe my opponents patterns and THEN swing accordingly? Less is more?

What about the whole "dash dance camping" spheel, or does that term trigger you lol.

Oh and btw, I haven't forgotten your advice on mentality and how my killer instinct can be trained daily. I've been working on it, but I need more time to flesh things out accordingly for myself. I'll definitely write up a post on my mentality and stuff for others to read as well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well the key to becoming better in a gameplay sense is understanding positions and your own character more deeply as well as the divisions of the game. You swing sometimes for information or to establish threats, and sometimes to potentially whiff punish, and so on. I was mostly saying that many people just DD and wait forever, aka DASH DANCE CAMPING(that term angers me because I may have heard it in some streams after apex 2015 I did not expect). What I am suggesting is either using waiting to encourage the opponent to attack, or to gain information, or use dash dance to find a way to attack using prior conditioning. So it's not patterns and then swing because you may be the one establishing those patterns or just finding out which ones your opponent prefers. I don't know how to make that simple. Ask away if any of that didn't make sense or needs clarifying.

I hope your writeup goes well!

 

[Kotastic]

So what you're basically saying in a nutshell is...to understand my character's capabilities and control to basically manipulate the playing field to my favor?

To get into more specifics, what you're saying is to understand positions and what my character is capable of, using my sword and movement with purpose? (like swinging for info, establishing space, etc.) Waiting or Dash Dancing (?) can be really good in seeing my opponent intentions. I'm a little confused on "use dash dance to find a way to attack using prior conditioning"

"So it's not patterns and then swing because you may be the one establishing those patterns or just finding out which ones your opponent prefers." So you're saying that without prior conditioning, my swinging on its own is a pattern that my opponent can take advantage of?

This is probably the most complex piece of advice I've ever read so far gameplay-wise, so once again thank you for guiding me through this.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dashes carry threats of moves attached. If you establish move threats (I run in and attack with Dtilt, so next time I dash forward in a similar position I carry Dtilt threat) then you can control the opponent. Eventually you learn patterns and can establish threats safely, or more reliably anyway.

Yeah your own swinging is just something that is responsive to what they're doing instead of conscious action and you allow yourself to be controlled instead. Even if they don't really know how to control you either, your lack of appropriate built up habits lets you be abused when you get outplayed(think of panic rolls).

And yeah no problem, this is really hard stuff so I am glad if I can help anyone through it.

 

[maclo4]

One problem ive been having lately is dtilting in ranges that are too close. Basically if I wd forward or run forward then dtilt you have a certain fixed range that you cants go shorter than. So I end up with a lot of misspaced dtilts that i get punished for. Do you think a good solution is teaching myself to use running fair or grab in those ranges?

 

[Kotastic]

So to put it overall with a simple excerpt to make sure I understand this correctly:

Pressure can be created with prior conditioning with my swinging with purpose, and I can manipulate my opponents with waiting/dash dancing. Using it effectively, I know some info about my opponents which I can use to reliably whiff punish, appropriate reads, and condition a bit more. Of course, this depends on my stage positioning and the character I'm playing against. (like I doubt d-tilt would have much effect on puff or falco, but fair certainly would do a lot more) Tell me if I'm off with any of these.

I will keep this advice in mind and see how this plays out as I continue to grow as a player.

 

[Dr Peepee]

One problem ive been having lately is dtilting in ranges that are too close. Basically if I wd forward or run forward then dtilt you have a certain fixed range that you cants go shorter than. So I end up with a lot of misspaced dtilts that i get punished for. Do you think a good solution is teaching myself to use running fair or grab in those ranges?

Yeah or just walk Dtilt, or dash/WD back dash/WD in Dtilt or just Fair in addition to what you said.

So to put it overall with a simple excerpt to make sure I understand this correctly:

Pressure can be created with prior conditioning with my swinging with purpose, and I can manipulate my opponents with waiting/dash dancing. Using it effectively, I know some info about my opponents which I can use to reliably whiff punish, appropriate reads, and condition a bit more. Of course, this depends on my stage positioning and the character I'm playing against. (like I doubt d-tilt would have much effect on puff or falco, but fair certainly would do a lot more) Tell me if I'm off with any of these.

I will keep this advice in mind and see how this plays out as I continue to grow as a player.

That's probably good enough to get you started. You can test it out and let me know how it goes.

 

[AirFair]

Could you elaborate more on the less backdashing part of less is more? Now that I'm practicing intent/movement and thinking about those things a lot more, I wanted to understand this more so that I can consider it when I'm practicing.

From what I can gather, the general idea is that marth suffers a lot from repeatedly turning his back on opponents in ways they can take advantage of, like dashing back after dtilts and getting hit by opponents who move in to chase them, and dropping otherwise strong pressure/openings.

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee

Let me know if any of this is just crazy talk, cause it kind of sounds like crazy talk to me right now.

I just started practicing some stuff repetitively, over and over again and it got me thinking. If I practice something basic like just a dash over and over and over again and I'm just dashing and dashing and dashing, I'd start to think about how an opponent could respond to a dash, and then I'd add a wavedash to that and then practice dash+wavedash over and over and over and think about a bunch of stuff related to that, just a bunch of little situations and eventual variations on that basic movement would start to come to mind. Then I'd do dash+wavedash+dtilt and practice that a billion times and I'd start to just have these thoughts flowing in my head about how great that tool can be...Okay.... So is whats going on at like crazy high level play that one has thought about these things so deeply and so much, that they can know how an opponent can respond to the most basic movements before their attack even comes out? And that would kind of make the possibility of their attack or movement that comes out to either hit or be effective in some other way (like maybe conditioning)? And then, after practicing something a million times, in a tournament match, you're using this tool so minimally but so effectively because you've spent so much time alone with the tool thinking about how three little inputs can be so effective, breaking down each piece by piece? And then you can start to think backwards and you'd know these tools and movements so well that you don't have to 'abuse' or use them a lot in certain matchups? (it's old footage but i never saw you dtilt that many times against nintendude. Or like I've said in the past, dash-dance that much during apex'15.). I would apply this kind of thinking to pretty much any combination of three or four sequences of moves+tools.

...or have i just read too much art of learning?

 

[maclo4]

Yeah or just walk Dtilt, or dash/WD back dash/WD in Dtilt or just Fair in addition to what you said.

oO thanks i practiced the dash/wd back ->dash/wd forward last night and it seems so useful.

A separate question is about jab against falco. Theres this pretty solid falco at my college and I'm always working towards beating him specifically (finaally beat him in a Bo5 but that unrelated), but when i first started to use jab against him it worked a lot because he probaly was not super familiar with the option. But as I play him more he has kind of figured out that if his approach gets jabbed, most of the time its not that bad for him because he can mix up a lot of options to escape my follow up and make it hard for me to actually get anything off of the jab. Basically, it feels like jab just resets the situation back to neutral with is better than nothing but it doesnt feel advantageous in the same way that using fair in that situation does. So I'm just wondering if you have any suggestions for how to get more off of jabbing an approach or if I have to be content with just stopping his approach sometimes

 

[Dr Peepee]

Could you elaborate more on the less backdashing part of less is more? Now that I'm practicing intent/movement and thinking about those things a lot more, I wanted to understand this more so that I can consider it when I'm practicing.

From what I can gather, the general idea is that marth suffers a lot from repeatedly turning his back on opponents in ways they can take advantage of, like dashing back after dtilts and getting hit by opponents who move in to chase them, and dropping otherwise strong pressure/openings.

Less is more is not really about back dashing less but about keeping actions minimal/purposeful. Marth should probably back dash less as a separate idea though lol. The reason backdash is bad is because you don't have good options from there. Yeah you can pivot grab, but Bair is kinda slow to come out and not that great(you have to keep drifting away after using it and there isn't always stage for that plus you don't want to be cornered as Marth). Pivot Fair helps mitigate this some if you can get set up in time. The main reason people get blown up for backdash besides these things is the other thing you mentioned: people do it really obviously. If you dash back EVERY TIME YOU DTILT AND FAIR then yeah you're going to get blown up for it and it's a common bad habit in Marths that I decided I would fight today by saying it in caps lol. This kinda combines the problems, since Marth sees people running in on him when he moves back but his turnaround options kind of suck or are risky so he just gets hit a lot. Observing, doing another attack, moving in are all fine substitutes to dashing back.

Dr Peepee

Let me know if any of this is just crazy talk, cause it kind of sounds like crazy talk to me right now.

I just started practicing some stuff repetitively, over and over again and it got me thinking. If I practice something basic like just a dash over and over and over again and I'm just dashing and dashing and dashing, I'd start to think about how an opponent could respond to a dash, and then I'd add a wavedash to that and then practice dash+wavedash over and over and over and think about a bunch of stuff related to that, just a bunch of little situations and eventual variations on that basic movement would start to come to mind. Then I'd do dash+wavedash+dtilt and practice that a billion times and I'd start to just have these thoughts flowing in my head about how great that tool can be...Okay.... So is whats going on at like crazy high level play that one has thought about these things so deeply and so much, that they can know how an opponent can respond to the most basic movements before their attack even comes out? And that would kind of make the possibility of their attack or movement that comes out to either hit or be effective in some other way (like maybe conditioning)? And then, after practicing something a million times, in a tournament match, you're using this tool so minimally but so effectively because you've spent so much time alone with the tool thinking about how three little inputs can be so effective, breaking down each piece by piece? And then you can start to think backwards and you'd know these tools and movements so well that you don't have to 'abuse' or use them a lot in certain matchups? (it's old footage but i never saw you dtilt that many times against nintendude. Or like I've said in the past, dash-dance that much during apex'15.). I would apply this kind of thinking to pretty much any combination of three or four sequences of moves+tools.

...or have i just read too much art of learning?

That is EXACTLY what I did to practice(note: I only did this for a month before Apex 2015 but you can see the result). I think there is an extent to where other top players do it, but not so meticulously and more in a theorycraft kind of way. So if you stick with this practice it will take you very very far. The micro decision points/the little situations that occur every frame of dash are so valuable and most people miss them because they aren't trained to see it. It's beautiful though and I hope you keep going with it =)

oO thanks i practiced the dash/wd back ->dash/wd forward last night and it seems so useful.

A separate question is about jab against falco. Theres this pretty solid falco at my college and I'm always working towards beating him specifically (finaally beat him in a Bo5 but that unrelated), but when i first started to use jab against him it worked a lot because he probaly was not super familiar with the option. But as I play him more he has kind of figured out that if his approach gets jabbed, most of the time its not that bad for him because he can mix up a lot of options to escape my follow up and make it hard for me to actually get anything off of the jab. Basically, it feels like jab just resets the situation back to neutral with is better than nothing but it doesnt feel advantageous in the same way that using fair in that situation does. So I'm just wondering if you have any suggestions for how to get more off of jabbing an approach or if I have to be content with just stopping his approach sometimes

Nice!

Jab is actually great on hit but it doesn't combo. Falco losing frame advantage that close lets you go back to abusing movement and range against him. He probably stopped clamming up after being hit, but since he likely can't get another laser out and has to try yoloing Dair or moving back or something that works great for you. If you can tell me what he specifically does we can work it out but I do believe it's a good option on hit vs Falco specifically.

 

[KBK Kingkiller]

I have a couple questions about the Marth vs Falco thing you posted on reddit.

1. What cue do you react to when you hit them out of shorthop laser with side b? I've been trying to figure it out and it seems like it would be too slow if you tried to react to the laser sound and if you react to jumpsquat or the first airborne frames, you become super vulnerable to WD ASDI down.

2. You've said that the reasons you don't like dash attack are that it is laggy and has low reward. I'd think that Falco at low percents would be an exception since you get an opportunity to reaction tech chase with grab (especially since it gets them out of the 0-7 percent range where Marth is forced to accept the fthrow/uthrow 50-50). I've been having success with it. However, it could just be that I am playing players who don't understand it well enough. Am I missing something?

3. Would you be willing to talk a little about how you decide to jab and/or where I am going wrong? I've been working on it for the last couple weeks but I'm not understanding exactly how it works. From what you said, I've gathered that it's good when you are spaced just outside of shorthop nair range as a reaction to them jumping in. The main thing I'm having trouble with is understanding the role of WD in jab. Would you be willing to point me in the right direction?

Thank you.

 

[Dr Peepee]

1. I can usually just react to them being in the air. I guess I don't know if that's first airborne frames or not, but if someone wanted to fake it they'd need to SH and not laser and do a waveland or something because I'm usually hitting people at the height/later part of their SH and not the early part. It helps to know that most Falcos are usually going to laser so you can prime yourself for it, it's just knowing how and when they will that matters a lot here. Side B is good if you're not sure, but if you are sure they'll laser you can WD jab or run Fair/Nair.

2. I just don't like a move that you can get bodied by holding down and shield with(in addition to moving back since it lags), and if they DI behind you then they fly away(if they go onto the edge on non-YS stages I guess that's good though). I do admit that if you're going to use it in any two matchups, use it in the ditto and against Falco, especially since Falco won't really be holding down or shield often and his dash back doesn't go too far to help him avoid it. So feel free to ignore me more on that one if it's working it's just my personal preference.

3. That's a good question. WD in jab is mainly on a pseudo read where you want to call out a laser by moving in. This is a great way of covering ground quickly and stopping Falco's laser momentum and also a way to advancing threat against Falco which is tough since most of your options are moving back. It only really works if your counterattack threats work imo since Falco will have to start doing more dashes/waits to retime or reposition his lasers to see if he can force you back. At this stage, you have plenty of frames to open up WD in jab. If you want to do run up Fair/Nair instead you can but those don't always work for me and they're riskier to get hit out of since Falco can freely Nair you out of the air if he shoots you there, though they do give more reward. Might be something to play around with, and I'll be doing the same myself so I can give you a better answer in time.

 

[KBK Kingkiller]

Thank you. That helped a ton.

 

[maclo4]

Nice!

Jab is actually great on hit but it doesn't combo. Falco losing frame advantage that close lets you go back to abusing movement and range against him. He probably stopped clamming up after being hit, but since he likely can't get another laser out and has to try yoloing Dair or moving back or something that works great for you. If you can tell me what he specifically does we can work it out but I do believe it's a good option on hit vs Falco specifically.

What hes doing specifically is stuff like jab, dashing away, immediate aerial, shine (if hes close enough), or spotdodge. I can def think of specific ways to beat each of these options but when hes mixing them up it gets really complicated in my head. He might do some lasering too I'll pay closer attention next time we play

 

[KBK Kingkiller]

What hes doing specifically is stuff like jab, dashing away, immediate aerial, shine (if hes close enough), or spotdodge. I can def think of specific ways to beat each of these options but when hes mixing them up it gets really complicated in my head. He might do some lasering too I'll pay closer attention next time we play

Obviously, I'm not PP, so take this with a grain of salt. What I do when I have a situation like that (a clearly delineated one that seems overwhelming but is important enough to need full understanding), is I draw out a grid. Each column is an opponent's option and each row is one of my options. Then I fill it in (check off what each option and can use it as a tool to identify my potential mixups. Once I have those, I figure out which ones should be primary mixups and which ones are more situational. After that, I look at complicating factors like how percent or position change things and record that. After focusing on that for a while in friendlies and shadowboxing, it usually starts to become instinct or I realize my approach is flawed and start again.

 

[maclo4]

Interesting, I might try that. I feel like thats what I try to do but in my head, but ill try writing it out like that and see if it helps understand my options

 

[irv05]

Hi PP, I just read your falco v marth post on reddit, and i'll probably be re-reading it quite a few times in the next few weeks until I internalize everything in there. Thanks for the great explanations. There are a few options I wanted to ask you about that I have been doing in the match up. I play this match up quite often with my brother and these are just options I find that generally work against his playstyle, but I'm not sure whether they are universal in the match up and whether there is a good counter.

1. You mentioned take laser->jab. Whenever I start doing this a ton, he begins to hit me with lasers just outside of my jab range, and in doing so, he feints a whiff punish against my jab or actually goes in. This forces me to have to give up space, get stuck re-jabbing, and/or shield. What I have been finding useful is using take laser->jump, drift forward rising fair. Since this hits a bit further from jab, I feel its a great tool for forcing falco to back off even more. Obviously this is super punishable but I find the risk-reward to be great since a tipper fair usually leads to a combo. Also, if falco ends up backing off and hitting your fair with a laser then you can just fast fall down and react accordingly, and you always have the option of double fair if he doesn't laser.

2. There's this weird approach I have been doing. Basically I jump forward to set up the late fair. Usually this means falco will shoot a laser to stuff your approach, but I've been finding that after a laser hit in the air, marth still has time to hit with a late fair through the same jump, after taking the laser stun. You mentioned that marth struggles at moving forward, and I've been finding that this option is great when falco is spacing conservatively on you.

3. Last one is the role of dash attack. The way I use dash attack is to catch laser happy falcos. So I've found that when most players reset to neutral and are thinking of their next option, they just dash dance around. Except for falco. With falco, most players laser around while they think of something, and if you throw in a dash attack at this time, they usually wont have an answer for it. Unless they hard read this (if a falco does read this you should probably stop dash attacking), I find it to be somewhat safe since usually dash attack gets stuffed by laser and then you can just do a take laser->option.

Also, you said take laser -> dash back is great, what about take laser-> dash forward?

Thanks a ton for all of this info, this is my favorite match up in the game :D

 

[Dr Peepee]

1. I really like double jab when that scenario occurs, but yeah I agree if you get stuck spamming jab you should do an option like what you said lol. That type of scenario, combined with #2 might be a good answer but I worry about Falco's Nair in those situations. Suppose he lasers and waits, and if you jump in he Nairs(or if you Fair early even better) or if you jab he waits and lasers again. This could cover both, and if he's ever concerned about you trying to come in harder he can dash back to gain more time to react and even if he couldn't necessarily punish a jump in he can laser your landing(avoiding the laser air Fair you mentioned) which can still give him advantage. I guess you could waveland back before that though? Admittedly I don't have a great answer for these things, which is why I usually think if Marth wants to push in it needs to be with reads like this or with (Z)PS. This pretty much is my response to #2 as well lol.

3. Yeah I just really don't like they can shield/hold down vs it even though they are really unlikely to do it. Should it become common in the meta then I would think more Falcos would do that more, especially if they do start using occasional ground movement to approach. At any rate it's a good enough option but I dislike the risk and I also dislike being close to Falco when he hits a laser.

Laser to dash forward is also good! Very good for putting lots of pressure on Marth since Falco carries lasers and aerials with his forward dash. Can also help him see the possible jab or dash back mixups Marth want to try more safely.

 

[AirFair]

The micro decision points/the little situations that occur every frame of dash are so valuable and most people miss them because they aren't trained to see it.

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I've been thinking about this while practicing today. When you say micro decision points, are you talking about marth's decisions or the decisions of the opponent? It seems like it could apply to both.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It does apply to both. It's kind of hard to explain if you've never felt it, but I got the overall impression from the way Josh Waitzkin talks about going into throws in the Art of Learning. It's basically a situation that you've practiced a lot and can see little responses from them and then you shift your timings and a whole new set of options appear very quickly, within the same action. Now the part I actually love is when the opponent is either doing their own setup or they know mine, because that feeling of playing in such a deep meaningful way is so immersive and engaging that I want to go deeper into it. Unfortunately that does not exist much yet but I am going to push for that understanding when I'm better.

Er, anyway, it does apply to both but it's like a back and forth. That doesn't stop you the player from planning out how to make the most of it basically. Like a conversation.

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

M2K's Marth is playing Axe right now :D

 

[Kotastic]

Dr Peepee

M2K's Marth is playing Axe right now :D

Video link????

 

[AirFair]

Video link????

it's on his stream at twitch.tv/mew2king, check his latest video and you can find it in there.

 

[AirFair]

It does apply to both. It's kind of hard to explain if you've never felt it, but I got the overall impression from the way Josh Waitzkin talks about going into throws in the Art of Learning. It's basically a situation that you've practiced a lot and can see little responses from them and then you shift your timings and a whole new set of options appear very quickly, within the same action. Now the part I actually love is when the opponent is either doing their own setup or they know mine, because that feeling of playing in such a deep meaningful way is so immersive and engaging that I want to go deeper into it. Unfortunately that does not exist much yet but I am going to push for that understanding when I'm better.

Er, anyway, it does apply to both but it's like a back and forth. That doesn't stop you the player from planning out how to make the most of it basically. Like a conversation.

Thanks for clarifying. I just read through that section and making the connection is actually really awesome!

so if you have a setup you like (dash back run forward dtilt for example) and you initiate with a dash back, you can notice them respond by coming forward, and when you dash forward, you can confirm them coming into you and get a grab.

That's the first thing that comes to my mind as I'm thinking about this, so it may be a bit basic, but I will have to think more about it these next couple of days. It's really interesting to practice in this way where each movement is so critical, I'm looking forward to seeing my game change.

Sorry for double posting lol

 

[Kopaka]

It does apply to both. It's kind of hard to explain if you've never felt it, but I got the overall impression from the way Josh Waitzkin talks about going into throws in the Art of Learning. It's basically a situation that you've practiced a lot and can see little responses from them and then you shift your timings and a whole new set of options appear very quickly, within the same action. Now the part I actually love is when the opponent is either doing their own setup or they know mine, because that feeling of playing in such a deep meaningful way is so immersive and engaging that I want to go deeper into it. Unfortunately that does not exist much yet but I am going to push for that understanding when I'm better.

Er, anyway, it does apply to both but it's like a back and forth. That doesn't stop you the player from planning out how to make the most of it basically. Like a conversation.

First, intention really is so important if you're putting yourself out there to get better. Aka driving FAR to tournaments. Spending money on gas, food, playing players with foreign styles to you, you've really gotta know what you're doing and make every input count. I really felt this when I drove to a Power 9 (socal local) the other day, which is pretty far from me. My first set I wanted to kind of 'let-go' and wing it and rely on instinct and i lost my first game of my first set After that I kinda buckled down and paid way more attention to my intention, and...through that I was able to let-go in a way and ended up winning the set through that. Kinda strange but makes sense at the same time. Took that whole mentality through the tourney till I lost. Man really through, knowing the purpose behind all of your inputs is just so important when you travel. You come all that way, spend all that money and time dedicating yourself to this when you could be doing anything else, you better know what you're doing! Doing that, I've realized I get away with winging it at locals way closer to me that I attend all the time. I really felt like...I came all this way, I've gotta make every input of my controller count. I gotta think about everything I'm doing. It looks like it just gets deeper and deeper the better you get and the more you go far to tournaments. It's crazy. Even when you're losing you can kind of understand why you're losing with much more clarity in this way, at least from my recent experience. It's tough so we've gotta be kind to ourselves, something I'm still struggling with but it's possible.

Second, and this kinda ties into what we and AirFair are thinking about, but this subject has been blowing my mind. It's hard and it's tough and I think it does take some kind of discipline to stick to this kind of practice.. Most people aren't going to wavedash over and over and over again as practice. It could also be easy to lose sight of this kind of practice when you're out there playing people. The game is so fast and new actions and decisions and plans spawning out of just tiny changes in dash lengths? Insane. There's just such a deeper level to this game that I want to explore and I hope everyone here gets to explore as well some day.

Edit: I think some might just want instant satisfaction of certain characters or maybe of raw execution then call it a day and hope that carries them far. going deep into this stuff is beautiful and 100% effective and not just crazy talk because I've felt it even in my own practice of it and that's only been for a few days for not even that long lol

 

[AirFair]

First, intention really is so important if you're putting yourself out there to get better. Aka driving FAR to tournaments. Spending money on gas, food, playing players with foreign styles to you, you've really gotta know what you're doing and make every input count. I really felt this when I drove to a Power 9 (socal local) the other day, which is pretty far from me. My first set I wanted to kind of 'let-go' and wing it and rely on instinct and i lost my first game of my first set After that I kinda buckled down and paid way more attention to my intention, and...through that I was able to let-go in a way and ended up winning the set through that. Kinda strange but makes sense at the same time. Took that whole mentality through the tourney till I lost. Man really through, knowing the purpose behind all of your inputs is just so important when you travel. You come all that way, spend all that money and time dedicating yourself to this when you could be doing anything else, you better know what you're doing! Doing that, I've realized I get away with winging it at locals way closer to me that I attend all the time. I really felt like...I came all this way, I've gotta make every input of my controller count. I gotta think about everything I'm doing. It looks like it just gets deeper and deeper the better you get and the more you go far to tournaments. It's crazy. Even when you're losing you can kind of understand why you're losing with much more clarity in this way, at least from my recent experience. It's tough so we've gotta be kind to ourselves, something I'm still struggling with but it's possible.

Second, and this kinda ties into what we and AirFair are thinking about, but this subject has been blowing my mind. It's hard and it's tough and I think it does take some kind of discipline to stick to this kind of practice.. Most people aren't going to wavedash over and over and over again as practice. It could also be easy to lose sight of this kind of practice when you're out there playing people. The game is so fast and new actions and decisions and plans spawning out of just tiny changes in dash lengths? Insane. There's just such a deeper level to this game that I want to explore and I hope everyone here gets to explore as well some day.

Yeah it's definitely a lot to take in right now. It seems kinda weird to be practicing this way, but I've started to really enjoy it once I can get my mind focused on it. I feel like we are scratching the surface of something that makes this game awesomer than it already was, and that's just exciting to me.

well said homie =)

 

[Kopaka]

Yeah it's definitely a lot to take in right now. It seems kinda weird to be practicing this way, but I've started to really enjoy it once I can get my mind focused on it. I feel like we are scratching the surface of something that makes this game awesomer than it already was, and that's just exciting to me.

well said homie =)

It's crazy to have come full circle with this way of training. At first, one practices basic inputs like dashing, wavedashing, etc. It's like I'm coming back to that basic training, except with all this knowledge of the game now like carried threats, possible opponent reactions, conditioning, etc. When a beginner trains in that way, they're usually not thinking of those things. They're just getting used to the feeling of the game. When an experienced player is looking to practice those, they could be thinking about the purpose of those basic inputs. It really does come full circle. Crazy.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

M2K's Marth is playing Axe right now :D

FOUND THE VOD THANKS WOOO

Thanks for clarifying. I just read through that section and making the connection is actually really awesome!

so if you have a setup you like (dash back run forward dtilt for example) and you initiate with a dash back, you can notice them respond by coming forward, and when you dash forward, you can confirm them coming into you and get a grab.

That's the first thing that comes to my mind as I'm thinking about this, so it may be a bit basic, but I will have to think more about it these next couple of days. It's really interesting to practice in this way where each movement is so critical, I'm looking forward to seeing my game change.

Sorry for double posting lol

Yeah that's a surface level view of it. As you go deeper, you realize that on your dash back they could move forward at different points, and when they move forward do they seem to still be checking for your change in response or not, and if so then when you transition then they should be able to handle it. Maybe not if you do it at a good time! It gets complicated =p But yeah you have the right idea.

First, intention really is so important if you're putting yourself out there to get better. Aka driving FAR to tournaments. Spending money on gas, food, playing players with foreign styles to you, you've really gotta know what you're doing and make every input count. I really felt this when I drove to a Power 9 (socal local) the other day, which is pretty far from me. My first set I wanted to kind of 'let-go' and wing it and rely on instinct and i lost my first game of my first set After that I kinda buckled down and paid way more attention to my intention, and...through that I was able to let-go in a way and ended up winning the set through that. Kinda strange but makes sense at the same time. Took that whole mentality through the tourney till I lost. Man really through, knowing the purpose behind all of your inputs is just so important when you travel. You come all that way, spend all that money and time dedicating yourself to this when you could be doing anything else, you better know what you're doing! Doing that, I've realized I get away with winging it at locals way closer to me that I attend all the time. I really felt like...I came all this way, I've gotta make every input of my controller count. I gotta think about everything I'm doing. It looks like it just gets deeper and deeper the better you get and the more you go far to tournaments. It's crazy. Even when you're losing you can kind of understand why you're losing with much more clarity in this way, at least from my recent experience. It's tough so we've gotta be kind to ourselves, something I'm still struggling with but it's possible.

Second, and this kinda ties into what we and AirFair are thinking about, but this subject has been blowing my mind. It's hard and it's tough and I think it does take some kind of discipline to stick to this kind of practice.. Most people aren't going to wavedash over and over and over again as practice. It could also be easy to lose sight of this kind of practice when you're out there playing people. The game is so fast and new actions and decisions and plans spawning out of just tiny changes in dash lengths? Insane. There's just such a deeper level to this game that I want to explore and I hope everyone here gets to explore as well some day.

Edit: I think some might just want instant satisfaction of certain characters or maybe of raw execution then call it a day and hope that carries them far. going deep into this stuff is beautiful and 100% effective and not just crazy talk because I've felt it even in my own practice of it and that's only been for a few days for not even that long lol

Yeah I've always found it crazy how people say they want to be good and improve and then play friendlies for ten hours a day, not practice or analyze videos, not have tournament results improve or only improve slowly, and say they weren't trying in tournament or find some other excuse. People can do what they want and enjoy the game however they want of course, but if you actually want to improve and post results then you have to keep checking your strategies to make sure they're getting you what you want. The kindness to yourself is incredibly valuable, so I hope you keep having that dialogue with yourself, and not just when you lose!

Yeah I know we sound like crazy people telling people who can wavedash to keep doing it, but hey if it works do it =p Melee is too deep and beautiful and our own expression too valuable to let self-consciousness get in the way.

 

[lokt]

I've been struggling with some fh needle stuff vs sheik. The person I'm playing with likes to mixup fh needle and fh fast falll dash forwards and I find myself in a position where I'm at a bad position to pivot grab his approach. Any tips on beating sheik fh mixups?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Not really sure what position you're in when this happens, but if you react late and can't Fair it(honestly I'd practice that reaction it seems simplest), then just back off from the needles and then set up with Dtilt/Fair to control Sheik coming in and/or get ready to run in and grab or even Fsmash if you know exactly what Sheik will do. Also the number of needles may matter. If she has a full set it's harder to challenge than if she has two since I think it's easier to swing through two.

 

[Socrates]

Open ended question. How much improvement do you think one can make strictly practicing on their own before it is necessary to play with others to get any better? I'm sure you've been asked this before but I've been doing this practice regimen that yourself others have been talking about (focussing on individual movements, working up to chains, thinking about where every tool fits individually) with my own spin on things and I've noticed myself improving waaaaaaay more than I ever have sparring with other people. I feel like I make more progress with this deep practice in like 2 hours then I ever did playing several hours of friendlies. The only 1v1 experience I get is at a weekly, and the progress I've been making week to week is kind of shocking to me. I was always under the impression that the only way to get better at this game was to play (a lot) against people who are better than you.

I also feel like this is a good question for you since you're sort of removed from most of the top practice partners but still manage to compete on such a high level. Again, all things that have been mentioned before, but I wanted to hear your take on it with this deep movement practice in mind.

 

[Dr Peepee]

While I do have experience not playing players stronger than me or even near my skill level for the vast majority of my career, it would be wrong for me to say I didn't take advantage of playing others often, as well as saying I used practice well. This puts me in a very regrettable position of not really having experience with what I advise when it comes to this practice for non-top players. You will all have to teach me some things about how the process works!

That being said, no matter what I've always valued the link between analysis and playing others and used it to improve. It's not too much of a step to bring in what I talked about before, the triangle of improvement which adds effective practice in there. While I spent most of time trying to find ways to test things on players weaker than I am, I think you can and should from stronger, weaker, and evenly skilled players. They all teach different things.

I guess to avoid making my answer too long-winded, my feeling is you should practice and analyze until you have things to test and then you play people and figure it out. Those new results and questions and feelings you bring back to practice and analysis, which also feed into each other. It's a great improvement cycle and it never really stops working, only changes as you change. So maybe sometimes practice will be more important, but occasionally you encounter things opponents do you don't understand and need to spend more time analyzing. Things like that.

Hope that's an alright answer.

 

[Kopaka]

Open ended question and I've noticed myself improving waaaaaaay more than I ever have sparring with other people. I feel like I make more progress with this deep practice in like 2 hours then I ever did playing several hours of friendlies. The only 1v1 experience I get is at a weekly, and the progress I've been making week to week is kind of shocking to me. I was always under the impression that the only way to get better at this game was to play (a lot) against people who are better than you.

100% right there with you. Even the losses are much more clear to me now if I'm present enough and have focused on all of my inputs vividly. Takes practice, but doable.

 

[Socrates]

While I do have experience not playing players stronger than me or even near my skill level for the vast majority of my career, it would be wrong for me to say I didn't take advantage of playing others often, as well as saying I used practice well. This puts me in a very regrettable position of not really having experience with what I advise when it comes to this practice for non-top players. You will all have to teach me some things about how the process works!

That being said, no matter what I've always valued the link between analysis and playing others and used it to improve. It's not too much of a step to bring in what I talked about before, the triangle of improvement which adds effective practice in there. While I spent most of time trying to find ways to test things on players weaker than I am, I think you can and should from stronger, weaker, and evenly skilled players. They all teach different things.

I guess to avoid making my answer too long-winded, my feeling is you should practice and analyze until you have things to test and then you play people and figure it out. Those new results and questions and feelings you bring back to practice and analysis, which also feed into each other. It's a great improvement cycle and it never really stops working, only changes as you change. So maybe sometimes practice will be more important, but occasionally you encounter things opponents do you don't understand and need to spend more time analyzing. Things like that.

Hope that's an alright answer.

I plan on publishing practice reports at some point, so maybe that will provide some insight as to the progression from the non-top player point of view.

As a follow up question, would you be able to elaborate on what you think there is to learn uniquely from lower/even/higher skill players? I have trouble knowing what to focus on when playing people lower in skill level.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sounds good!

And my basic thoughts on this are:

-weaker players give you a chance to try out ideas and test combos and change playstyles and so on pretty freely since they don't directly challenge you. It's like preparing yourself for harder opponents.

-stronger players you work more on DI and recovery and you really see what stuff you have does and doesn't work so you learn your weak points.

-evenly matched players you practice going all-out and push your competitive mindset for tournament. You mostly apply what you'd learn from the other guys here, although since it is friendlies you (both) can be experimenting as well and will understand immediate changes in playstyle more. *Edit: This would be the player that meets the conditions of flow as they are a perfect challenge. So theoretically you would be driven to push hardest against them.* This is probably the best for tourney preparation.

 

[Kopaka]

FOUND THE VOD THANKS WOOO


Yeah that's a surface level view of it. As you go deeper, you realize that on your dash back they could move forward at different points, and when they move forward do they seem to still be checking for your change in response or not, and if so then when you transition then they should be able to handle it. Maybe not if you do it at a good time! It gets complicated =p But yeah you have the right idea.




Yeah I know we sound like crazy people telling people who can wavedash to keep doing it, but hey if it works do it =p Melee is too deep and beautiful and our own expression too valuable to let self-consciousness get in the way.

Yeah for me it's been like, dash dancing a lot can be fine if one has the reasoning behind it down pretty deep! I'm working on cutting down on excess movement but I'd hate to be accused of "dash dance camping" just because I might do it a lot! I might do it more the more I get better with intention lol. I still cant believe that apparently some good players were saying you were doing that at Apex still. And the dash back thing too...I've had a bit more success with dash back/dtilt dash back stuff now that I've been practicing intention with those tools instead doing it out of habit. I'm still moving too, I'm just using my tools and using the movement for reasons we've mentioned in here many times before lol.

It's been wild. I remember when I linked a timestamp of you vs Hbox at Evo '15 a few pages back and you said something like "I was making a decision with each dash" / "that example is a weird one because I wished I had made decisions earlier". At first I thought "Wow that's crazy, how can that even be possible? Things happen so fast, there's no way..." etc until I started practicing it myself. When I practice it in friendlies I start out doing stuff kinda slowly, and then ill feel good about it and play a bit faster. Then if I'm losing out in stuff I might slow it down again, and pull attention back in if that's been lost.It's kind of the same way in tournament too. Every input can have a purpose. When you watch someone who's really good at this, most of the things they're doing in the game look so well coordinated, like a dance. Every single step has a purpose, there's lots of invisible stuff going on underneath the hood. It's kind of how you can sort through the chaos of a game of Melee. We all know things happen so quickly and that Melee is so fast, etc. It's a lot like how the magical learning book says about slowing down time

 

[heyitshoward]

Re: Playing worse players

I used to be pretty big into BroodWar and Day9 did a lot of excellent podcasts for it. One of them is about why playing worse players is good, and you can find a transcript of it here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Day(9)_Podcasts#Why_You_Should_Play_Against_Worse_Players

He has some other interesting game theory stuff that if you read isn't terribly hard to imagine how it applies to your personal experience in Melee. Here's a quote from his "Why You Should Play Against Worse Players" though that I find pretty short, sweet, and to the point:
"Against better players, you learn what not to do. Against weaker players, you learn what to do."

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah for me it's been like, dash dancing a lot can be fine if one has the reasoning behind it down pretty deep! I'm working on cutting down on excess movement but I'd hate to be accused of "dash dance camping" just because I might do it a lot! I might do it more the more I get better with intention lol. I still cant believe that apparently some good players were saying you were doing that at Apex still. And the dash back thing too...I've had a bit more success with dash back/dtilt dash back stuff now that I've been practicing intention with those tools instead doing it out of habit. I'm still moving too, I'm just using my tools and using the movement for reasons we've mentioned in here many times before lol.

It's been wild. I remember when I linked a timestamp of you vs Hbox at Evo '15 a few pages back and you said something like "I was making a decision with each dash" / "that example is a weird one because I wished I had made decisions earlier". At first I thought "Wow that's crazy, how can that even be possible? Things happen so fast, there's no way..." etc until I started practicing it myself. When I practice it in friendlies I start out doing stuff kinda slowly, and then ill feel good about it and play a bit faster. Then if I'm losing out in stuff I might slow it down again, and pull attention back in if that's been lost.It's kind of the same way in tournament too. Every input can have a purpose. When you watch someone who's really good at this, most of the things they're doing in the game look so well coordinated, like a dance. Every single step has a purpose, there's lots of invisible stuff going on underneath the hood. It's kind of how you can sort through the chaos of a game of Melee. We all know things happen so quickly and that Melee is so fast, etc. It's a lot like how the magical learning book says about slowing down time

Honestly just DD however much you want people will complain when they lose no matter what you do lol. Play for your own self-expression and you'll be very glad you did. While not easy, I really do hope you don't neglect this advice because these things can and will feed into your play.

I am glad you've been making progress as you have and hope to see you keep going =)

 

[AirFair]

So I've been thinking about the decision points within dashes for a bit of time now, and I had some thoughts about forward movement when approaching.

The thing that has taken up my attention is the dichotomy between rc dtilt and dash wd dtilt. As of recently, I have become more aware of the small differences between the two, with the threats in each action, and the ways you can adjust each part. I'm not really used to doing actions out of dash wd but that's something I want to ask about after this.

The main difference between the two that I am most aware of is the speed. Though they both cover similar distances, they are different in the time it takes for the dtilt. Although the rc dtilt is slower, that got me thinking about how I could take advantage of that. This ties back to the original post that I am referencing with this one.

My idea is that I can see how early/late my opponents respond to me pushing in and use that to decide whether I want to approach fast or slow, and then I can mix up accordingly depending on my opponent's movement. For those who are late to respond, I can take advantage and press in quickly, to keep them guessing. For those who are more aware of my intention and respond faster, I feel like I don't have to commit like I do with dash wd and can throw them off with just a change in tempo to slower.

I'll be able to test this idea out tomorrow in friendlies/tournament as long as I keep my focus, but this seems like a pretty neat idea. I'd love to hear what yall think.