Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

Pivot grabs are extremely important. You're abusing Marth's long dash and his big threat range and his big grab so you really need to take advantage of this tool(also really helps with CG'ing spacies....I use JC pivot grabs just in case but it is 1 frame slower). Pivot Fair is pretty important as well since it covers weaknesses of pivot grab and helps control space. The throw pivot stuff you could argue isn't as useful if you can juggle/edgeguard well but it sure does simplify things a lot if you can get those early kills. For me, the first two for sure are fundamental tech, but the pivot fsmash is more debatable. Good luck!

 

[Kotastic]

Heard the news that you're playing soon! Super excited for that! Please take your time though if you don't feel great.

Could you briefly go over the concept of feinting or direct the page # in this thread? I just learned of this concept rather recently, and I suspect this is my next step of higher-level playing beyond recognizing DI mixups and straight-forward RPS. Is it like dash dancing? D-tilt in place but taking advantage of the IASA frames to really move somewhere else? Forcing a reaction from your opponent by doing some form of action? I would like some clarification if I'm grasping this concept correctly.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Think of it like giving a visual/audio cue and changing your end result. If you start from the same spacing then doing a Fair in place to move in Dtilt means that your opponent will be primed for movement in after you Fair in place from that position. You can then counterattack them/take stage for free using this information.

 

[Kazeshin]

I've been trying to figure out how the neutral in top level melee is so different from what I do, maybe you can point me into the right direction, PP;
For a long time, I've played neutral by just taking note of which options my opponent used and at which percent, so I could try and counter that option next time a similar situation arises - which I guess is a passive way of playing.

Lately I've tried to build in trying to find out, how my opponents brain is primed, purposely using movement to give my opponent cues that are supposed to make him more likely to perform a certain action, I guess that would be an active way to manipulate your opponent into doing things that you expect and can punish;

Do I just need to get really good at both of these variations of neutral or should I be doing something entirely different?

 

[Sevan]

@PP, I played fox for 2.5 years but switched to marth about 4 months ago, and I cant seem to find a good way to deal with falco double lasers from the ledge. I find it hard to also find any videos of marth's punishing it well, and i was wondering if you can give any advice on how to deal with it. It feels like no matter how far away i am from the ledge, it works really well and opens me up. I feel like Marth doesnt have the speed like fox to jump on the platform to avoid and attack back, and moves like downtilt, fair, nair all get stuffed by the lasers. Im at the point where i feel like the best option is to block the lasers then try to get them during their next option.

any advice would be great! Thanks!

 

[ElectricBlade]

Sorry to ask another question again so quick, but I want help from you to understand something.

I don't actually play Melee, but I do play Smash 4. I just apply everything you do to the game in it's own way. But one thing I struggle to understand is determining where exactly to position myself relative to my opponent. I know I have to stay outside of the opponents best burst options or combo starters. But is that all there is to it? How exactly do you know the opponent's main threat ranges.

Even if I don't play Melee I would understand if you gave melee examples of good positionings from match up to match up. Preferably with Marth

Thank you PP

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've been trying to figure out how the neutral in top level melee is so different from what I do, maybe you can point me into the right direction, PP;
For a long time, I've played neutral by just taking note of which options my opponent used and at which percent, so I could try and counter that option next time a similar situation arises - which I guess is a passive way of playing.

Lately I've tried to build in trying to find out, how my opponents brain is primed, purposely using movement to give my opponent cues that are supposed to make him more likely to perform a certain action, I guess that would be an active way to manipulate your opponent into doing things that you expect and can punish;

Do I just need to get really good at both of these variations of neutral or should I be doing something entirely different?

First, establish your threat ranges and main options on both sides. Then learn how to use those to influence your opponent. Percent is a good factor to use, as is stage position. Isolate as many factors as possible like what you mentioned and I have, and then connect them. As you do your understanding will grow and you'll be able to find what works well for you.

@PP, I played fox for 2.5 years but switched to marth about 4 months ago, and I cant seem to find a good way to deal with falco double lasers from the ledge. I find it hard to also find any videos of marth's punishing it well, and i was wondering if you can give any advice on how to deal with it. It feels like no matter how far away i am from the ledge, it works really well and opens me up. I feel like Marth doesnt have the speed like fox to jump on the platform to avoid and attack back, and moves like downtilt, fair, nair all get stuffed by the lasers. Im at the point where i feel like the best option is to block the lasers then try to get them during their next option.

any advice would be great! Thanks!

You can shield grab between the lasers, and spam jab I think, maybe Dtilt too. I don't remember all of it since it's been a while but I remember it being pretty easy. It might help to sit down with a friend/20XX and see what works.

Sorry to ask another question again so quick, but I want help from you to understand something.

I don't actually play Melee, but I do play Smash 4. I just apply everything you do to the game in it's own way. But one thing I struggle to understand is determining where exactly to position myself relative to my opponent. I know I have to stay outside of the opponents best burst options or combo starters. But is that all there is to it? How exactly do you know the opponent's main threat ranges.

Even if I don't play Melee I would understand if you gave melee examples of good positionings from match up to match up. Preferably with Marth

Thank you PP

So, the main starting position is called threatening range. It is also called reaction range. This is the range you can react at safely if they come at you with their fastest option. Standing just outside that range means you are safe. Combining their movement speed with their biggest and/or fastest moves is how you determine your TR and your opponent's TR. So in Melee, Marth's dash WD Dtilt or RC Dtilt would be his biggest and fastest threats in many matchups(not in Falco though for example). Fox's is like dash SH Nair but the range is similar to dash FH aerial in or RC Dtilt. So once you figure out how those ranges intersect you begin everything from that position. In a match and just in order to hit someone, you pass that range a lot one way or another so you need to know those positions outside of TR too.

 

[Almost Infinite]

Pivot grabs are extremely important. You're abusing Marth's long dash and his big threat range and his big grab so you really need to take advantage of this tool(also really helps with CG'ing spacies....I use JC pivot grabs just in case but it is 1 frame slower). Pivot Fair is pretty important as well since it covers weaknesses of pivot grab and helps control space. The throw pivot stuff you could argue isn't as useful if you can juggle/edgeguard well but it sure does simplify things a lot if you can get those early kills. For me, the first two for sure are fundamental tech, but the pivot fsmash is more debatable. Good luck!

I lovee you!! I looked into if i could JC grab in the spacie CG so much and asked on reddit and everyone said "No it has to be pivot Kadano said so. Big ups for the big PP <3

 

[Kotastic]

Sorry to barrage you with more questions that may strike to you as rudimentary, but I'm on mah grind to get past my low mid-level status as a player.

Regarding dash dancing, my dash dance has little threat besides dash dance grab, which gets beaten by a simple overshoot nair by Fox or DA by Sheik/Peach, etc.. Seeing your dash dance clearly has a large effect to your opponent, and I must be doing something wrong. Some ideas of I mine to make my dash dance more threatening is DD shield, grab forward as opposed to dash back, commit aerial forward, fall back aerial, and WD d-tilt. Suggestions?

 

[AirFair]

hey pp,

during your interview with tafo, you talked about the work that you put in toward the learning process outside of melee that really helped your growth, which played a huge part of the foundation that makes you such a strong player. If you don't mind, could you point me toward some of the things that got you started learning about these kinds of topics?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sorry to barrage you with more questions that may strike to you as rudimentary, but I'm on mah grind to get past my low mid-level status as a player.

Regarding dash dancing, my dash dance has little threat besides dash dance grab, which gets beaten by a simple overshoot nair by Fox or DA by Sheik/Peach, etc.. Seeing your dash dance clearly has a large effect to your opponent, and I must be doing something wrong. Some ideas of I mine to make my dash dance more threatening is DD shield, grab forward as opposed to dash back, commit aerial forward, fall back aerial, and WD d-tilt. Suggestions?

Seems good. you should try those out and see how they work together and influence your opponent.

hey pp,

during your interview with tafo, you talked about the work that you put in toward the learning process outside of melee that really helped your growth, which played a huge part of the foundation that makes you such a strong player. If you don't mind, could you point me toward some of the things that got you started learning about these kinds of topics?

To be clear, I only started working on these things after I became a top player. My foundation before that was entirely game focused with an occasional outside source that helped affirm what I was already doing.

Inner Game, Art of Learning, this book I haven't finished yet called "The Talent Code" looks useful for this area, and while there are a couple other sources I use I think these can be fine if you take them seriously and deeply.

 

[Blatant J]

I know you're a proponent of playing the ground game, does this mean you shouldn't be preemptively jumping in neutral?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can jump, but jumping into them is usually not advised unless they are in the air. Controlling your own space with jumping is fine in other words.

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee

I'm starting to see a paradox with Marth. While his movement is naturally great, and fun to use, I think there could be a major benefit for me in lessening, tightening, refining, and understanding deeply the nuances of the movement overall, in a case by case way. (Instead of playing in a free-form 'do whatever because it's good' way) A quick, generalized example would be knowing that it isn't always going to be good to do a full length dash in neutral in the way that I've been using it so far, which to me feels like I'm just simply throwing myself at my opponent with a long dash in neutral, and then committing to a wavedash back immediately. . I've seen that I've put myself in awkward positions where I've been hit by the smallest moves like getup attacks by spacies in this way, among other things in different matchups, like Sheik F-tilt. The paradox could be that while Marths full length dash and or wavedash is so long and low, there are times where I feel I shouldn't commit to a full length or even short length wavedash, or full length or short length dash as I continue to deeply study what's really going on in my play by video analysis and real practice.

I want to work to be able to abuse Marth's inherently powerful movement, though not haphazardly over-relying on it, and working to understand intention through what percents my opponent and I are at. I want to work to better understand all of this, so that I feel that I'm not always trying to play to my opponent's tempo, whether slow or fast, under a tournament environment where the feelings are different than me being in my room and working at all of this. I want to have control. I want precision and intention in my play, and I want discipline. If there were to be a question in all of this, I guess it would be, what would you be looking for, in practice or analysis, if this was all something you wanted to work on?

 

[Dr Peepee]

More than anything I just think you need to keep going. This sort of stuff is what you will have to work through, but trusting yourself to figure it out is most important.

That said, you could try not using or minimally using any tool you thought you crutched on to play without it(I tell Falcos to play without lasers to understand why they're good as a more potent example). Additionally, when you do a sequence of actions and lose out, you may need to consider other factors like conditioning(based on what you just did or previously did in a similar situation),or percent, or stage position. If you get Sheik Ftilted on a dash in, they were either primed for it from movement in or were going to do it anyway based on what happened before/recently in other words. Just keep analyzing and testing and you will figure it out.

 

[maclo4]

Do you know about/use the newest 20XX? I heard you say in the interview something about getting a partner to do certain things to practice specific scenarios, but I feel like with the new replay/save state system you can just do that on your own pretty easily. Lately I've just been going into the new 20xx and making replays of various common situations (like shiek doing fh needles, falco doing various lasers, or trying to find counters as other characters to some of the things I do as marth), then just replaying the save state over and over while messing around with different ways to deal with it till I feel comfortable with whatever option Im trying to test. Its been super helpful for me at least. If you do use it or know about it do you have any ideas for good ways to test stuff besides what I said already?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I know of it and have talked to some people about it, but don't have it yet. You can substitute some of what I said for the replay feature but I don't know all of the limits so I don't talk about it.

 

[RaptorJesus]

Oh gotcha. Yea I don't know all the functions yet either but the basics even are super useful. There's a really long video series on YouTube explaining all the features and it's pretty freakin extensive. Def look into it tho and let us know if you find some cool uses

 

[Taytertot]

hey PP or anyone else who has thoughts on this,

ive been thinking about this a bit so im curious if im missing something. ive realized lately that ive dropped my use of grab a lot for fair, dtilt etc. and realized that this is likely a weakness of mine in mindset. ive shifted towards working on call outs more and feeling out the mixup game recently and found that grabbing has felt more risky to me in the process and i believe that others who are above my skill level have been taking advantage of the lack of grab in my gameplay. when i reflect on why my grab use has diminished i realize that i feel im necessarily giving up the advantage of reach that dtilt and fair have for the reward of how much grab opens others up. while i dont think that people should give up on taking risks (in fact i value smart risk taking a lot), i do find that i am naturally a bit more on the safe side so i rely on my longer range pokes more so in neutral. So, my question is whether im on the right mindset and need to shift my grab use to different situations (i.e. whiff punishment instead of neutral) and focus on using my pokes better to set up those scenarios where i can use grab more safely or if im missing some valuable ideas about how to effectively use grab when im still in neutral?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

hey PP or anyone else who has thoughts on this,

ive been thinking about this a bit so im curious if im missing something. ive realized lately that ive dropped my use of grab a lot for fair, dtilt etc. and realized that this is likely a weakness of mine in mindset. ive shifted towards working on call outs more and feeling out the mixup game recently and found that grabbing has felt more risky to me in the process and i believe that others who are above my skill level have been taking advantage of the lack of grab in my gameplay. when i reflect on why my grab use has diminished i realize that i feel im necessarily giving up the advantage of reach that dtilt and fair have for the reward of how much grab opens others up. while i dont think that people should give up on taking risks (in fact i value smart risk taking a lot), i do find that i am naturally a bit more on the safe side so i rely on my longer range pokes more so in neutral. So, my question is whether im on the right mindset and need to shift my grab use to different situations (i.e. whiff punishment instead of neutral) and focus on using my pokes better to set up those scenarios where i can use grab more safely or if im missing some valuable ideas about how to effectively use grab when im still in neutral?

You definitely need grab in neutral. Maybe you could think of it as using grab either in situations where it is likely to connect or if it is less likely to get punished.

The first would mean using grab when the options the opponent has are limited (you mentioned whiffpunishing, but there are also a lot of situations where you don't have a guaranteed whiffpunish but still a big advantage). It could also mean that you have a big threat that forces the opponent to focus on mitigating that, like if they have a frame disadvantage and can't dash out in time without potentially getting f-smashed, so you grab to beat shield. In some low distance scrambles grab is also likely to connect simply because of its range.
There is also this phenomenon where dashing forward or back for too long can lead to being in weird spots (either cornered or likely intercepted by an anti-approach), so you can make use of that by covering the resulting dash patterns your opponent can choose of with grab. The rule has its exceptions though.

Your grab is less likely to get punished if it is riskier for your opponent to stay in the distance where they could whiffpunish it. You mostly achieve this by retreating first. Example:
Let's say you dash back and then pivot grab, to counter a predicted dash forward by the opponent. The opponent would need to be at enough distance from your new location not to get grabbed but not too far, if they want to whiffpunish. However, that zone is right around your old location, so it would be very easy to cover it with anti-approach attacks for you, and they haven't registered you dashed back at that time.

I'd probably watch some video examples and compare when grab works out and when not.

Dr Peepee
Thoughts on Marth vs Fox?
My current impression is that Marth can hold his own pretty well in "true neutral" and the combo game, but struggles a bit in these inbetween situations where one side has a frame advantage but not enough to get a guaranteed followup. Marth seems to be caught quite often in these situations when he is the one with the frame disadvantage because of the lack of fast moves, while Fox has an extra way to escape with the full jump and the shine is a get-out-of-jail-for-free card so often.

Looking at how the matchup will change with increasing quality of play, to me it seems like combos being dropped less would benefit Marth, because this often leads to weird scrambles where Fox does well, and Marth has more trouble to get the KO at high %s. On the other hand, DI+SDI seem to help the Fox players, for example with the escape from the platform techchase or ASDI->main stage slideoffs against base hit f-smash or up-B.

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey PP or anyone else who has thoughts on this,

ive been thinking about this a bit so im curious if im missing something. ive realized lately that ive dropped my use of grab a lot for fair, dtilt etc. and realized that this is likely a weakness of mine in mindset. ive shifted towards working on call outs more and feeling out the mixup game recently and found that grabbing has felt more risky to me in the process and i believe that others who are above my skill level have been taking advantage of the lack of grab in my gameplay. when i reflect on why my grab use has diminished i realize that i feel im necessarily giving up the advantage of reach that dtilt and fair have for the reward of how much grab opens others up. while i dont think that people should give up on taking risks (in fact i value smart risk taking a lot), i do find that i am naturally a bit more on the safe side so i rely on my longer range pokes more so in neutral. So, my question is whether im on the right mindset and need to shift my grab use to different situations (i.e. whiff punishment instead of neutral) and focus on using my pokes better to set up those scenarios where i can use grab more safely or if im missing some valuable ideas about how to effectively use grab when im still in neutral?

There is nothing wrong with preferring safety/aerials. However, you must make those tools as strong as possible. If people know you will always swing at the same space and time, then you are not threatening. You may need a change. Also, grabbing sometimes makes your aerials stronger since they must try to cover both when you do similar actions(like running forward).

Dr Peepee
Thoughts on Marth vs Fox?
My current impression is that Marth can hold his own pretty well in "true neutral" and the combo game, but struggles a bit in these inbetween situations where one side has a frame advantage but not enough to get a guaranteed followup. Marth seems to be caught quite often in these situations when he is the one with the frame disadvantage because of the lack of fast moves, while Fox has an extra way to escape with the full jump and the shine is a get-out-of-jail-for-free card so often.

Looking at how the matchup will change with increasing quality of play, to me it seems like combos being dropped less would benefit Marth, because this often leads to weird scrambles where Fox does well, and Marth has more trouble to get the KO at high %s. On the other hand, DI+SDI seem to help the Fox players, for example with the escape from the platform techchase or ASDI->main stage slideoffs against base hit f-smash or up-B.

Yes, the more Marth drops the more Fox benefits I've noticed as much as well. Scramble situations benefit Fox greatly. As you smooth out your gameplay and punishes in particular it gets a lot easier. Also, not freaking out when you get hit so you don't let Fox hit you more is pretty important.

Marth does have more trouble getting KOs at high percents, but if you just juggle/edgeguard fine it's not that big of a deal.

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee Some questions about the Falco matchup. I've been trying to study it as deeply as I can with my knowledge atm, and I couldn't ask for a better source for help lol.

1. Given Marth gets most of his punishes when Falco jumps (whether that's through swatting him or grabbing his landing), why does Falco jump in the first place? In many matchups Marth's dtilt policing the ground gets his opponents in the air, but with Falco I don't think the move is as useful, because laser neuters your threatening range, and Falco's dashdance isn't very long. I know many Falcos with their over-agressive tendencies often jump at you just because they want a "real" hit, but against a more patient Falco, what threat does Marth have that gets him jumping frequently? Falco has to jump to laser, but (I think) it's a small commitment when it autocancels. Is the idea to slowly take space and corner Falco so he has to jump to escape? But if Marth is always moving forward, that makes him predictable and allows Falco to have total control over the game, which means Marth still isn't forcing the jump out. This leads to my second question.

2. What do you think the role of dashdance is versus lasers? I feel like "less is more" is a really good mantra for movement in a matchup where asserting your space is so important, but the issue is I'm not sure how to balance it with the baits and feints that offset Marth's weakness of being easy to see coming. I feel like lasers augment how predictable Marth is when they slow him down, so I was wondering if you have a process or something to figure out when it's better to keep space, and when it's better to play with it or press into Falco's?

3. How do you take a situation where you're on top of Falco, and prevent it from turning into him on top of you? Often I'll get myself just outside Falco's aerial threat range, and rising fair; the issue is Falco just doesn't jump most of the time, and I land and he starts tearing into me. But if I try and wait and react to the jump, I'm too close so I can't maneuver quickly enough. I'm not sure if this is true or I have more time than that, but I feel like at that spacing I have to act at that moment, because otherwise my opportunity is lost. But then I end up going for a read that in a vacuum has a low success rate. Does this come back to my first question of figuring out how to make Falco jump?

4. If you have tips for the Falco matchup that you think are often neglected or overlooked I would appreciate that a lot. Also, could you recommend any sets in particular that you think are good study material?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee Some questions about the Falco matchup. I've been trying to study it as deeply as I can with my knowledge atm, and I couldn't ask for a better source for help lol.

1. Given Marth gets most of his punishes when Falco jumps (whether that's through swatting him or grabbing his landing), why does Falco jump in the first place? In many matchups Marth's dtilt policing the ground gets his opponents in the air, but with Falco I don't think the move is as useful, because laser neuters your threatening range, and Falco's dashdance isn't very long. I know many Falcos with their over-agressive tendencies often jump at you just because they want a "real" hit, but against a more patient Falco, what threat does Marth have that gets him jumping frequently? Falco has to jump to laser, but (I think) it's a small commitment when it autocancels. Is the idea to slowly take space and corner Falco so he has to jump to escape? But if Marth is always moving forward, that makes him predictable and allows Falco to have total control over the game, which means Marth still isn't forcing the jump out. This leads to my second question.

2. What do you think the role of dashdance is versus lasers? I feel like "less is more" is a really good mantra for movement in a matchup where asserting your space is so important, but the issue is I'm not sure how to balance it with the baits and feints that offset Marth's weakness of being easy to see coming. I feel like lasers augment how predictable Marth is when they slow him down, so I was wondering if you have a process or something to figure out when it's better to keep space, and when it's better to play with it or press into Falco's?

3. How do you take a situation where you're on top of Falco, and prevent it from turning into him on top of you? Often I'll get myself just outside Falco's aerial threat range, and rising fair; the issue is Falco just doesn't jump most of the time, and I land and he starts tearing into me. But if I try and wait and react to the jump, I'm too close so I can't maneuver quickly enough. I'm not sure if this is true or I have more time than that, but I feel like at that spacing I have to act at that moment, because otherwise my opportunity is lost. But then I end up going for a read that in a vacuum has a low success rate. Does this come back to my first question of figuring out how to make Falco jump?

4. If you have tips for the Falco matchup that you think are often neglected or overlooked I would appreciate that a lot. Also, could you recommend any sets in particular that you think are good study material?

1. Falco's ground threats are pitiful vs Marth. His Ftilt gets shield grabbed(this hurts when it happens), his Fsmash gets shield grabbed almost always(maybe always with shield DI in), dtilt shield grabbed, dash attack shield grabbed or at least hit oos on slow reaction, utilt doesn't work unless Marth recklessly jumps into Falco, same with Bair(that's just jumping though)[you can also ASDI down/CC lots of these attacks too]. Falco's dash dance is also terrible. Long story short, Falco NEEDS lasers to supplement his pitiful movement and lesser range. He needs the supplement so badly he will take the risk of jumping over and over vs Marth because being outranged and outmaneuvered is much worse. Also, Falco's laser autcancels which is awesome for him. The problem is the startup is awful on laser. I think without jumpsquat the laser takes 13 frames to come out, and add in awful jumpsquat AND most people not lasering as fast as possible and every laser is actually a big commitment.

2. Well you can't do even 2 dashes between lasers sometimes, or you can only get 2 faster ones and then get immediately stopped by the next laser. Basically limit dashing vs Falco, but you don't need to move that much to still outspeed him. I mix dashing with WD jab/Ftilt and occasionally Fsmash(all with take laser beforehand), and I also take lasers a lot to move or attack since Falco has to guess what's better then. I imagine if I learned Z-PS I'd be able to say something about that here, but I don't know it.

Anyway, think of what most Falcos do. They don't just sit in place lasering as fast as possible then only back up or move in when you get kinda close. They often stop to change timing or dash once or twice before approaching or lasering again. This means they need to stop shooting to observe, and this stopping is where you get more movement openings and also comes from them respecting your threats to their approach or their laser game. If you ever see a Falco sitting in place lasering as fast as possible, you can probably just get near him then dash away after taking laser and get a pivot grab because Falco does not like being close to Marth unless he has a big frame advantage from approaching laser, and can't really get away outside of FH. Things do get simplified in the matchup, but keep in mind the Falco has his own issues to worry about and it's not necessarily any more complex for him.

3. If you're around his dash SH Nair range and you rush in you'll probably lose unless you have a read. There's a spacing that's like being close enough to jab/Ftilt him but they both tipper and you shouldn't be closer than that. I think that's the range I can dash back on reaction to his approach and pivot grab him. Don't get antsy in this position, this was my problem too for a while. Falco can't do a lot here so if he starts up another laser just swat him and be sure you're close enough to running fair or ground move him, and if he rushes in then grab. If he sits still then you're free to DD and threaten like you normally would if you want and you can also push into his space a little.

4. Can't think of anything else off the top of my head I covered most of what I usually am thinking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAgmV3cCKm0 this is the only footage worth watching imo but it's not amazing

 

[RaptorJesus]

Wait you don't think any other sets are worth watching besides you vs zanguzen?

Speedy edit: Also in regards to tanking lasers: why do you like tank them then act instead of shielding. I get there are more options when not in shield like jab or dashing but don't fair and wd oos have pretty similar uses to jab or dash? in most cases at least
I like to tank lasers too but jw why you seem to prefer it over oos options that can come out faster bc of the less hitstun

 

[VMPR]

This seems like a dumb question but I know you have experience with it. How do I deal with depression in regards to melee? I was Improving so much and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I still like playing even though its not as much as I used to but the work towards improving seems two or three times as draining as it was before. Should I just try to push through it for the future version of me who is feeling better so I dont fall behind? Should I take a break? It seems particularly hard to take a break considering smash is like my outlet and its what all my friends do and like the other option is to basically post up in my room. I have Zero Idea how to go about handling this. Whats your advice. (also ive been working out thats what alot of people have been saying but I still feel ****ty)

 

[delaysb]

You definitely aren't alone in this I struggle with this on weekly basis as well. It's no fun :/

 

[ridemyboat]

This seems like a dumb question but I know you have experience with it. How do I deal with depression in regards to melee? I was Improving so much and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I still like playing even though its not as much as I used to but the work towards improving seems two or three times as draining as it was before. Should I just try to push through it for the future version of me who is feeling better so I dont fall behind? Should I take a break? It seems particularly hard to take a break considering smash is like my outlet and its what all my friends do and like the other option is to basically post up in my room. I have Zero Idea how to go about handling this. Whats your advice. (also ive been working out thats what alot of people have been saying but I still feel ****ty)

Not PP, but everyone is different. You need to think about what causes there are for how you feel and try different things. Maybe taking a break helps, or playing more or less. Don't go to one extreme like only holing up in your room or going in super hard. Also, you will never know what future you wants, so don't worry too much about that and do your best.

 

[delaysb]

Not PP, but everyone is different. You need to think about what causes there are for how you feel and try different things. Maybe taking a break helps, or playing more or less. Don't go to one extreme like only holing up in your room or going in super hard. Also, you will never know what future you wants, so don't worry too much about that and do your best.

Something that has worked decently well for me was to set small goals for everyday. Whether it's practicing for just 10 minutes or sitting down and making myself play a few sets. Achieving those small goals was helpful for me personally so maybe give that a try

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dr Peepee
About retreating to platforms:

I've seen this strategy in a few matches where you retreat to the platforms when in a bad spot, play patient from there on and use your threat zones from the platform to force the opponent to respect your landing when going back to the main stage. Ideally you would be able to go from disadvantageous positions back to neutral this way. This seems particularly applicable if you gave up space to increase your chance to win neutral but are cornered now, because compared to other disadvantageous situations, there is less of a risk of getting hit while going to the platform.

So far, I've mostly seen Fox or Sheik do it, but I think it is a very general concept, and Marth, while not as good at using platforms, should also be able to use it against characters that aren't as good as threatening the platforms or not as fast. I could imagine that it is at least somewhat useful against anyone but Fox and Marth.

About shield:

I've been wondering what the key criteria that decide when shielding is more acceptable and when not. Obviously there are these situations where you are in a bad spot and have to shield to avoid getting hit, but I'm talking about shield being an important neutral tool.

My biggest concerns were getting grabbed and not having any cues, which, if registered, allow to move out of shield for free. Most characters generally want to use attacks with low enough cooldown so that moving out (WD OoS, for example) on reaction can already be caught by an immediated followup attack, so that would be problematic.

The character that shielding would be most useful against, according to that logic, would be Peach, because she is slow, has little grab range, and while float-cancelled aerials are good on shield, they aren't available immediately again and you can move out on reaction against jab, down-smash or down-tilt.

I've also seen people having success with shield against Fox players by using preceding movement or even a turnaround and shield DI, to make late aerials hit early on shield and shieldgrab them, or shieldgrab crossups because you are facing the other way all of a sudden. I'm still unsure if this is actually an important tool in the matchup or exploiting bad play from Fox's side. My guess is that Fox shouldn't use dash short hop aerial as much anyways, and that there are also timing differences, but Fox players are also forced to use these aerials from time to time, so it might be good as a rare mixup.


Thoughts about this?
Thanks for answering my questions all the time, I feel like it helps me to develop my understanding of the game

 

[ElectricBlade]

Ever since the brief conversation about zoning I've been doing my own research into how to optimize it and utilize it. However one thing has always sort of confused me.

Once you have properly established your space and forced the opponent to respect it, what do you do from there? Like what are your goals in general with it? How can yo abuse the fact that you've established your space well.

 

[RaptorJesus]

The other day I was playing with the best guy at my college, and he's been a demon of mine for a while, but I was actually winning more games than I was losing! It was great, I actually 2 stocked him a few times in a row at the start. So not really a question but thanks pp bc this thread at least partially has taught me how to learn the game better on my own

 

[Dr Peepee]

Wait you don't think any other sets are worth watching besides you vs zanguzen?

Speedy edit: Also in regards to tanking lasers: why do you like tank them then act instead of shielding. I get there are more options when not in shield like jab or dashing but don't fair and wd oos have pretty similar uses to jab or dash? in most cases at least
I like to tank lasers too but jw why you seem to prefer it over oos options that can come out faster bc of the less hitstun

I mean you can get stuff out of other Marths vs Falco, but I really do not like how they handle it.

Being limited to WD and Fair and with a dwindling, already kind of bad shield is something Marth pretty much never wants. Marth can still Fair/WD after taking laser hit but he also has more options. Additionally, this keeps Marth's movement open and lets him abuse more range advantage. Finally, taking damage and getting hit encourages Falco to come in since most Falcos wait for a hit confirm before approaching.

This seems like a dumb question but I know you have experience with it. How do I deal with depression in regards to melee? I was Improving so much and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I still like playing even though its not as much as I used to but the work towards improving seems two or three times as draining as it was before. Should I just try to push through it for the future version of me who is feeling better so I dont fall behind? Should I take a break? It seems particularly hard to take a break considering smash is like my outlet and its what all my friends do and like the other option is to basically post up in my room. I have Zero Idea how to go about handling this. Whats your advice. (also ive been working out thats what alot of people have been saying but I still feel ****ty)

Nah it's not dumb at all. I seriously struggled with it for a long time!

If training and such feels like a lot of work, then stick to theorycrafting and build your understanding that way. That's what I did when playing felt like too much work. This also can give you more time to do things to help your depression while staying immersed in the game.

As someone above said, I have always recommended setting small goals for yourself to get better. Not everything has to be done at once, and for a depressed person normal stuff seems overwhelming. That means that making everything much smaller feels safe for someone in this state. It can be Melee, or learning more about depression and how to beat it, or something else.

I also found therapy with a psychologist to be pretty helpful if it was something emotional that brought it on. Having someone who was really there to listen to me and often sound psychological advice was very refreshing.

I also learned a lot recently about how diet can greatly impact depression. If you're interested(it's okay if not) I can give you more information or you can set some small goals to look for it on your own, whatever works best for you.

Dr Peepee
About retreating to platforms:

I've seen this strategy in a few matches where you retreat to the platforms when in a bad spot, play patient from there on and use your threat zones from the platform to force the opponent to respect your landing when going back to the main stage. Ideally you would be able to go from disadvantageous positions back to neutral this way. This seems particularly applicable if you gave up space to increase your chance to win neutral but are cornered now, because compared to other disadvantageous situations, there is less of a risk of getting hit while going to the platform.

So far, I've mostly seen Fox or Sheik do it, but I think it is a very general concept, and Marth, while not as good at using platforms, should also be able to use it against characters that aren't as good as threatening the platforms or not as fast. I could imagine that it is at least somewhat useful against anyone but Fox and Marth.

About shield:

I've been wondering what the key criteria that decide when shielding is more acceptable and when not. Obviously there are these situations where you are in a bad spot and have to shield to avoid getting hit, but I'm talking about shield being an important neutral tool.

My biggest concerns were getting grabbed and not having any cues, which, if registered, allow to move out of shield for free. Most characters generally want to use attacks with low enough cooldown so that moving out (WD OoS, for example) on reaction can already be caught by an immediated followup attack, so that would be problematic.

The character that shielding would be most useful against, according to that logic, would be Peach, because she is slow, has little grab range, and while float-cancelled aerials are good on shield, they aren't available immediately again and you can move out on reaction against jab, down-smash or down-tilt.

I've also seen people having success with shield against Fox players by using preceding movement or even a turnaround and shield DI, to make late aerials hit early on shield and shieldgrab them, or shieldgrab crossups because you are facing the other way all of a sudden. I'm still unsure if this is actually an important tool in the matchup or exploiting bad play from Fox's side. My guess is that Fox shouldn't use dash short hop aerial as much anyways, and that there are also timing differences, but Fox players are also forced to use these aerials from time to time, so it might be good as a rare mixup.


Thoughts about this?
Thanks for answering my questions all the time, I feel like it helps me to develop my understanding of the game

Yeah I used to mess with platforms some as Marth but tend not to recommend it since Marth still is more vulnerable up there. Runoff Fair is really strong and Dtilt on platform will beat most jump in options from the front. You can also SH Fair on platform to beat other options, which opens up fall through and empty land on/off platform. I find getting on platform to be best vs Falco but it can be situationally good against Fox and maybe other matchups like Puff or something. In between stocks, especially on YS/FoD with low platforms I might use plats to get around approaches to not get super cornered/pushed to the edge or hit.

Shield is kind of like an outplay tool if you use it the way you're talking about. I maintain that Marth's shield is generally terrible, but using that fact to exploit others who want to rush in on shield can still be very good.

Ever since the brief conversation about zoning I've been doing my own research into how to optimize it and utilize it. However one thing has always sort of confused me.

Once you have properly established your space and forced the opponent to respect it, what do you do from there? Like what are your goals in general with it? How can yo abuse the fact that you've established your space well.

Okay, so let's suppose you have your space established. Now when you move or swing, your opponent has an idea of the true threat range and controlled space. They may try to come in during lag or in between swings, or they may keep their own space to keep it simple. If they keep their own space you can push into theirs by moving your threat zone closer. If they begin to push in you will need to be sure you don't give them exactly what they're looking for in terms of actions so they won't be able to easily hit you and you can keep them out/intercept them well. I hesitate to give too many specifics here, but there's a set from Evo 2014 I think which was Azen vs Silent Wolf and Azen still demonstrates the concept pretty well which may help.

 

[VMPR]

Yeah the info would be nice for sure. thank you guys for all the help Dr Peepee

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee

Congrats on 4th place in doubles!

 

[RaptorJesus]

I'm having a lot of trouble juggling mid weights and floaties. Against sheik and Marth it feels really hard to consistently get a hit off of upthrow bc at a certain percent there aren't true follow ups. I've been practicing my forward and down throw follow ups and I've got a pretty good system for covering if they di in and jump out or if they di out and it's a tech chase. On upthrow around 30-40 I just really struggle to cover their mixup between jumping or not tho and where they jump to. Any tips for covering multiple options or do you actually have to have a small read to get the followup?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I'm having a lot of trouble juggling mid weights and floaties. Against sheik and Marth it feels really hard to consistently get a hit off of upthrow bc at a certain percent there aren't true follow ups. I've been practicing my forward and down throw follow ups and I've got a pretty good system for covering if they di in and jump out or if they di out and it's a tech chase. On upthrow around 30-40 I just really struggle to cover their mixup between jumping or not tho and where they jump to. Any tips for covering multiple options or do you actually have to have a small read to get the followup?

The situations you describe are usually mixups. My method is to try to intercept them rather low than high, so for example after an up-throw I might cover no-jump with a late shffl up-air, so, if they jumped, I'm actionable again very soon and can try to shark their landing. The most common error in these situations is to chase them high without covering the jump correctly, and if they jump you need a long time to land and they can land safely.

If you read a jump, be fast with covering it, because the slower you are the more time they have to apply drift to avoid your hit horizontally even if you hit high enough.

Platforms also add another layer, side platforms often give you the opportunity to land faster after a fj aerial, and therefore make the resulting position (regardless if it hits or whiffs) better for you. Top platforms often give relatively easy ways to escape for the opponent, so if you aren't in time to get a guaranteed hit on them if they land on a top platform, your goal should be to prevent them from getting down more so than hitting them while they are there.

Also be aware of the DI mixup with Marth's throws: the opponent has the easiest time jumping out with vertical or no DI against up-throw, because at the point of time where the hitstun runs out they are higher in the air compared to other DIs, while DI in or away is often slightly easier to cover (for example fj fair, adjust horizontal position with optional turnaround and/or dash at the beginning). With forward throw, you can often get followups (like pivot f-smash or dash sh fair) if they don't DI down+away.

There are more details to this and I'm sure other people have something to add, too.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm having a lot of trouble juggling mid weights and floaties. Against sheik and Marth it feels really hard to consistently get a hit off of upthrow bc at a certain percent there aren't true follow ups. I've been practicing my forward and down throw follow ups and I've got a pretty good system for covering if they di in and jump out or if they di out and it's a tech chase. On upthrow around 30-40 I just really struggle to cover their mixup between jumping or not tho and where they jump to. Any tips for covering multiple options or do you actually have to have a small read to get the followup?

I'm pretty sure at 30-40 if they DI to either side you can dash FH Fair both characters and get a good punish. If they don't DI I think you can SH Uair around 30 maybe, not sure about 40. Either way if you keep missing followups first of all I'd recommend practicing the situation over and over around that percent range. Then I'd practice things like FH/SH'ing at them and reacting with delayed DJ Uair/Fair if they have to fall back into you or you can early attack to try and catch their jump/their attack. Marth below is still in a better position, so even if you just watch them go as long as you are good at hitting your Uair/Fair it can still work(though it's obviously harder).

 

[delaysb]

Ive been messing around in training mode and watching videos and I cant quite figure out how the uthrow -> utilt works on sheik at low percents. What ive gathered so far is that it can work off grabs at zero if you grab -> fthrow -> regrab and pummel -> uthrow, and if you get the grab before 30% you can still go for it. I guess my question is how does that exchange work? Is it guaranteed? Once you get the uthrow -> utilt is there specific di that you need to do turnaround utilts to continue the combo? Any insight on this grab situation at before 30% would be greatly appreciated. Im sure there is more im missing or havent thoroughly tested it just seems really wonky.

 

[ridemyboat]

Kadano has that written down if you look at the perfect marth thread. It's something like 23% to 30% that it's guaranteed. You can also test those things out with 20XX

 

[HolidayMaker]

I apologize if you've answered this in the past but do you have a general flowchart on throw followups in the ditto? I've been using Fthrow regrab/cheese at 0, uthrow til like 30-45, f/dthrow techchase/mixup past that? I feel like I should be hitting harder in the ditto.