Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Vista_]

Hey PP, I'm a Falco main trying to pick up marth. I've been playing a pretty movement based game with the character, but I have a LOT of trouble with Yoshi's story. I feel constricted with no room to breathe as spacies move around the stage lasering and shffl-ing into me. I have very little room to test my opponent with my dashes and advances because the next thing I know they're either on top of me or on the top platform waiting for me to whiff something. I understand the stage is great for marth because his sword covers so much space, but when I can't gather my opponent's habits with my movement I don't understand how I'm supposed to even land a clean swing. Do you have any thoughts on how you play the stage differently than the others?

 

[*CT*]

Hey Kevin, so glad to see you posting on here. I have trouble with Marth vs Falco...I find myself sitting in my shield a lot and getting punished for it frequently, kind of like in this video: https://youtu.be/DjgsOYlT4FM (I hope this made you laugh or brought back memories ;o)
I think I'm not DIing correctly either if I start to get pillared. Any suggestions on the MU?
Trying to take this game a bit more seriously now.

 

[Kyomaku]

Hey PP, I've been reading a lot of the things you have said about the Sheik matchup, and I did some thinking on my own, and I was wondering if you could elaborate on a couple of things.

You've discussed how Marth is able to discourage Sheik's use of dash attack as he changes his spacing, and how that can cause Sheiks to rely on using walk and ftilt to try and get Marth to back off. When talking about how to handle this kind of approach, you've said that fair is something that Marth's can leverage really well, as using dd grab.

Mind linking me to where he discusses that? Would like to read about that as well.

You can't do this in real time. It's impossible. The correct way to handle things is to practice so that you have setups you automatically can use and confirm while letting your subconscious act since it's more energy efficient and quick than conscious thinking.

PP, would you mind talking a little bit more about this (subconscious vs conscious thinking)? I'm always trying to be very conscious in my play. Aware of what my opponent and what I am doing, aiming to make all my actions an active decision in neutral. I'm aware that there are many situations that you can react to if you train your subconscious to recognize situations and you couldn't possibly find the optimal punish/decision in time without preparation/knowing the punish beforehand, but I'm sure you're also actively thinking during a match as well. Especially in the neutral game, surely you're consciously analyzing your opponents movement habits/patterns?

Maybe a silly question to add, but if you let your subconscious do most of the thinking, wouldn't that mean going autopilot, which is usually bad? From personal experience, I tend to play a lot worse in autopilot and thus try to never go there by keeping my mind actively engaged (rarely quiet). But I remember you saying some time ago, that your mind has to be quiet for your subconscious to be able to focus properly..

Thanks a lot in advance!

 

[FE_Hector]

Hey Kevin, so glad to see you posting on here. I have trouble with Marth vs Falco...I find myself sitting in my shield a lot and getting punished for it frequently, kind of like in this video: https://youtu.be/DjgsOYlT4FM (I hope this made you laugh or brought back memories ;o)
I think I'm not DIing correctly either if I start to get pillared. Any suggestions on the MU?
Trying to take this game a bit more seriously now.

A LOT of Falco's will just go on a tear if you shield vs their lasers. There was one I played in friendlies I played a week or so ago who was theoretically "better" than me, but who I destroyed because he shielded my lasers. It leads to very easy shield pressure and allows me to set up spacing for laser -> grab.

Making good use of platforms, utilizing Marth's low profile in his dash (or dash attack if you're m2k), and dashing back the instant you think a Falco's going to approach are all really good tools in the MU. The biggest thing you needa watch out for with dash back is that you don't corner yourself too willingly. One thing I'm working on in the MU is just continuing to laser dash back loving Marth's so that they suddenly run out of space to run away, at which time my approach options are far simpler. Random extra thought, if you know they're gonna shoot a low laser in anticipation of your utilizing your low profile, you can probably SH over the laser and fair them right before they land if they got too aggressive with the way that they came in with the laser.

 

[AirFair]

Mind linking me to where he discusses that? Would like to read about that as well.

https://smashboards.com/threads/car...t-the-tiara-guy.118998/page-409#post-20562339
https://smashboards.com/threads/car...t-the-tiara-guy.118998/page-403#post-20118840

Basically, You can see how Sheik responds to your dashes in, and as you do this, you will be able to tell if they want to dash attack or not. Then you can establish your threats, and work from there. If they want to walk forward and try and use ftilt as a solution to dash attack not working, you can use dtilt to stop her from coming forward or dd grab the ftilt itself. Another option is to space fair against it, which can be useful, yet I'm still thinking about it myself lol.

 

[eideeiit]

PP, would you mind talking a little bit more about this (subconscious vs conscious thinking)? I'm always trying to be very conscious in my play. Aware of what my opponent and what I am doing, aiming to make all my actions an active decision in neutral. I'm aware that there are many situations that you can react to if you train your subconscious to recognize situations and you couldn't possibly find the optimal punish/decision in time without preparation/knowing the punish beforehand, but I'm sure you're also actively thinking during a match as well. Especially in the neutral game, surely you're consciously analyzing your opponents movement habits/patterns?

I'm not PP and I'm bad and other stuff, but here's my quick take on this:

The game is too fast for thinking through the situations. That's you why build a "heart" so to speak, a subconcious understanding, that let's you play well while focusing your mental resources elsewhere. How the heart should be used/built and what your active thinking should be focused on is a mystery to me but it must vary somewhat from person to person just like everything else. The gist is to not speak to yourself, I guess. Focus on the opponent's/your own habits and specific reaction setups, and then trust on your heart. Just make a mental note of a thing you see and trust your heart to make the "normal adaptation". This way the rest of your brain can focus on deciphering things outside of the "normal" and "adding" things to the "heart". Probably super hard if you're not good enough already.

I'm talking kind of out of my ass here tbh. This is just a part of what I currently think it takes to be a good player. I can't do any of this.

This also brings up a question of my own: are there any methods for practising awareness? I can come up with psyching yourself to the right state of mind before the game and just doing it more. Could this actually be practiced outside the game too? I suppose I'll just go reread Wobbles's blog now, haha.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, I'm a Falco main trying to pick up marth. I've been playing a pretty movement based game with the character, but I have a LOT of trouble with Yoshi's story. I feel constricted with no room to breathe as spacies move around the stage lasering and shffl-ing into me. I have very little room to test my opponent with my dashes and advances because the next thing I know they're either on top of me or on the top platform waiting for me to whiff something. I understand the stage is great for marth because his sword covers so much space, but when I can't gather my opponent's habits with my movement I don't understand how I'm supposed to even land a clean swing. Do you have any thoughts on how you play the stage differently than the others?

On smaller stages you focus more on swinging and less on movement. They have a much harder time escaping the sword, so you don't have to finesse your position as much. CC them and take laser jab vs Falco and Nair/Fair wall vs Fox to get them to give you some respect and then you can move in.

Hey Kevin, so glad to see you posting on here. I have trouble with Marth vs Falco...I find myself sitting in my shield a lot and getting punished for it frequently, kind of like in this video: https://youtu.be/DjgsOYlT4FM (I hope this made you laugh or brought back memories ;o)
I think I'm not DIing correctly either if I start to get pillared. Any suggestions on the MU?
Trying to take this game a bit more seriously now.

When a laser hits you, don't shield. Dash or jab are usually better. If you have to shield, then shield DI away from them and you can WD OOS away or grab depending on what they do usually.

PP, would you mind talking a little bit more about this (subconscious vs conscious thinking)? I'm always trying to be very conscious in my play. Aware of what my opponent and what I am doing, aiming to make all my actions an active decision in neutral. I'm aware that there are many situations that you can react to if you train your subconscious to recognize situations and you couldn't possibly find the optimal punish/decision in time without preparation/knowing the punish beforehand, but I'm sure you're also actively thinking during a match as well. Especially in the neutral game, surely you're consciously analyzing your opponents movement habits/patterns?

Maybe a silly question to add, but if you let your subconscious do most of the thinking, wouldn't that mean going autopilot, which is usually bad? From personal experience, I tend to play a lot worse in autopilot and thus try to never go there by keeping my mind actively engaged (rarely quiet). But I remember you saying some time ago, that your mind has to be quiet for your subconscious to be able to focus properly..

Thanks a lot in advance!

Let me clarify, there's nothing wrong with wanting to understand and be aware of options. That is a great preference to have. However, you can't really be doing the heavy lifting on analysis during a match. Your plan must already be solid and you must already know how situations play out mostly. What you can analyze is where you got hit or went wrong, usually between stocks. If you try to think, you slow yourself down. Subconscious thinking will always be faster, and you'll be less tense as well, so you'll actually see MORE than if you're trying to focus and analyze. It's counter to what you'd expect but I've read and experienced it many times over and highly recommend it. Now my conscious mind is still feeding me what they're doing and I'm plotting exactly how to beat it, but what they're doing should fall into pre-existing well thought out schemes I have and I should be executing patterns of attack I've repeatedly practiced so they don't distract my focus as well. So it's not much active thought so much as recognizing if that makes sense.

Yeah that autopilot question is pretty common. There are some different ways to attack this. The first is for many newer players/those that don't understand the game super well, they have to think more when playing. This is how you familiarize yourself with everything. Eventually, through analysis and training, you want to shift yourself over to more patterns of behavior so it's kind of like making your auto pilot really advanced, drawing on your conscious knowledge through experience. Your patterns shift based on conscious recognition of what they do, but they're faster as a result of flowing through actions you've made subconscious. I hope that helps explain it better, it's not an easy thing to understand.

 

[Kyomaku]

Seeing more when you aren't consciously trying to focus, it does sound strange but I'll believe you! I was already expecting something like an advanced autopilot, but was really wondering how much conscious thought goes into a match at your level and your response clarifies that really well.

Trusting your subconscious to do the right thing, the thought of that is making me uncomfortable I have to admit. I'm still in the early stages where I have to consciously tell myself what is correct and what I should do, so it makes a lot of sense that I feel that way, so now I'm wondering, is there an efficient way to training your subconscious to play as smart as your conscious mind? I would guess that playing consciously a lot would eventually transfer things over, as it would turn into second nature, but that probably requires someone to play with, what if you're on your own (or want to practice alone)? Maybe that's where your shadowboxing comes into play, imagining what your opponent is doing and how you want to respond if you see it? I've never actually tried it, but thinking about it right now, it really feels like it could help a lot with my autopilot and making it execute patterns based on reactive/visual input. Just worrying that my autopilot could become too simpleminded/repetitive, but I guess in that case I can consciously remind myself to use pattern x less often and mix it up more? It's a simple, short thought, so it probably doesn't slow me down and I should realize between stocks if I get destroyed/read because of a specific pattern too often.

Thanks again, I really appreciate your time! I'm aspiring to become a very systematically optimized/consistent Marth and your thoughts are always very insightful.
Also thanks AirFair, was a nice read. Threatening range is an amazing concept once you've mastered it.

 

[Vista_]

Hey PP, I have a question about how you play. Recently I've been having trouble gathering my opponents' habits and keeping them in my head. When you see that they choose an option in a certain situation, do you actively "talk to yourself" in your head? For example, if they shield after being hit with a down tilt do you say in your head "They shield when they're down tilted"? Or do you simply see them do an action and expect your subconscious to store the info while your head accesses a plan to beat that strategy? I hope I'm putting this into words well enough. What I'm trying to ask is what your thought process looks like when your opponent chooses an option that you could exploit later.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Seeing more when you aren't consciously trying to focus, it does sound strange but I'll believe you! I was already expecting something like an advanced autopilot, but was really wondering how much conscious thought goes into a match at your level and your response clarifies that really well.

Trusting your subconscious to do the right thing, the thought of that is making me uncomfortable I have to admit. I'm still in the early stages where I have to consciously tell myself what is correct and what I should do, so it makes a lot of sense that I feel that way, so now I'm wondering, is there an efficient way to training your subconscious to play as smart as your conscious mind? I would guess that playing consciously a lot would eventually transfer things over, as it would turn into second nature, but that probably requires someone to play with, what if you're on your own (or want to practice alone)? Maybe that's where your shadowboxing comes into play, imagining what your opponent is doing and how you want to respond if you see it? I've never actually tried it, but thinking about it right now, it really feels like it could help a lot with my autopilot and making it execute patterns based on reactive/visual input. Just worrying that my autopilot could become too simpleminded/repetitive, but I guess in that case I can consciously remind myself to use pattern x less often and mix it up more? It's a simple, short thought, so it probably doesn't slow me down and I should realize between stocks if I get destroyed/read because of a specific pattern too often.

Thanks again, I really appreciate your time! I'm aspiring to become a very systematically optimized/consistent Marth and your thoughts are always very insightful.
Also thanks AirFair, was a nice read. Threatening range is an amazing concept once you've mastered it.

To come back to this briefly, the main issue most people have with this concept is that fear you mentioned. It's a fear of "giving up" control. It comes from training and trusting yourself to do what you need to do. When you do this you actually have more control, but this is very hard to do because of that fear. You and anyone reading can do it and benefit in many ways from succeeding with it though =)

Hey PP, I have a question about how you play. Recently I've been having trouble gathering my opponents' habits and keeping them in my head. When you see that they choose an option in a certain situation, do you actively "talk to yourself" in your head? For example, if they shield after being hit with a down tilt do you say in your head "They shield when they're down tilted"? Or do you simply see them do an action and expect your subconscious to store the info while your head accesses a plan to beat that strategy? I hope I'm putting this into words well enough. What I'm trying to ask is what your thought process looks like when your opponent chooses an option that you could exploit later.

I do more of the latter, where I see it and file it away, trusting myself to know the punish for it. However, I had to consciously train myself to do that in the first way you're talking about, so starting there and trusting yourself to get it more and more is best.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Hey PP, I have a question about how you play. Recently I've been having trouble gathering my opponents' habits and keeping them in my head. When you see that they choose an option in a certain situation, do you actively "talk to yourself" in your head? For example, if they shield after being hit with a down tilt do you say in your head "They shield when they're down tilted"? Or do you simply see them do an action and expect your subconscious to store the info while your head accesses a plan to beat that strategy? I hope I'm putting this into words well enough. What I'm trying to ask is what your thought process looks like when your opponent chooses an option that you could exploit later.

obviously not PP, but I also want to answer lol
Usually (at least from my experience), if you have to process an information with your active attention, you will fade everything else out, which can make you miss reactions you normally get or make autopilot decisions. Inbetween stocks, sure, but I think in most cases the drawbacks outweigh the advantages.
The other thing is, you already need to know what to look out for to even be able to make these observations. In your example, you could observe that they shield after being hit by a down-tilt, but there are way more possible interpretations connecting their action to a different condition, like their or your stage positioning, or what happened previously. There is no way you can decide what to conclude from the information you have just gained (they are shielding in this particular game state) while considering all these interpretations.
The active conciousness (again, from my experience, although it would be pretty amazing if anybody had a different experience with this lol) is bad at coming up with concepts and comparing their efficacy in predicting the opponent's future actions in a limited time, these tasks are better suited for your practice sessions, where you can look up matches, break the problem down into smaller steps and take all the time you wan.
In practice, you will have an idea about what to look out for in this situation (in this case, the opponent's move choice, here shield, after being down-tilted) by pattern recognition, which can happen subconciously and way faster.

tldr: You can confirm/disconfirm things you look out for, but have no time to decide on what to look out for

 

[Vista_]

I do more of the latter, where I see it and file it away, trusting myself to know the punish for it. However, I had to consciously train myself to do that in the first way you're talking about, so starting there and trusting yourself to get it more and more is best.

obviously not PP, but I also want to answer lol
Usually (at least from my experience), if you have to process an information with your active attention, you will fade everything else out, which can make you miss reactions you normally get or make autopilot decisions. Inbetween stocks, sure, but I think in most cases the drawbacks outweigh the advantages.
The other thing is, you already need to know what to look out for to even be able to make these observations. In your example, you could observe that they shield after being hit by a down-tilt, but there are way more possible interpretations connecting their action to a different condition, like their or your stage positioning, or what happened previously. There is no way you can decide what to conclude from the information you have just gained (they are shielding in this particular game state) while considering all these interpretations.
The active conciousness (again, from my experience, although it would be pretty amazing if anybody had a different experience with this lol) is bad at coming up with concepts and comparing their efficacy in predicting the opponent's future actions in a limited time, these tasks are better suited for your practice sessions, where you can look up matches, break the problem down into smaller steps and take all the time you wan.
In practice, you will have an idea about what to look out for in this situation (in this case, the opponent's move choice, here shield, after being down-tilted) by pattern recognition, which can happen subconciously and way faster.

tldr: You can confirm/disconfirm things you look out for, but have no time to decide on what to look out for

Thank you both so much. I really shouldn't have just addressed PP when I asked that, since there are a lot of good players with very insightful opinions on the cognitive aspect of the game. I'm relatively new and now that I feel my technical ability has reached a plateau I realize that I'm finding it difficult to not autopilot and to be able to make reads during a game.

 

[ita16]

Hello everyone . I want to talk about marth vs peach. And with the recent grandfinals set at UGC. M2k vs armada. How do you guys think m2k played that first set. And then the second set. I think there was a lot we can learn from it for this match. I hope to hear from pp as well.

The commentators did mention m2k would hit Armada as soon as he would start his float.
Anyways, so happy to see m2k play well and overcome his major obstacles.

 

[Zorcey]

Hey PP, I was thinking about my style of Marth (I think I play similar to you, trying to always be threatening my opponent with my positioning and movement and all) and why I play this way, and a question occurred to me: is it possible for a player to change styles?

My idea was essentially to make a radical change of tempo and strategy between games in a set to throw the opponent off their adaptions, and maybe seal some early leads. But I'm not sure how realistic this would be in practice, because it might distract my mind too much and slow down my gameplay - regardless of how much practice I've had. Also it sounds low-key gimmicky.

The theorization here kind of comes from Umbreon's game theory. He's stated a few times that most players have the concept of "playstyle" backwards, and make their decisions based on how they want to play, rather than focusing on optimization and allowing what they think the right decisions are to create their "playstyle." (This is what I've understood his posts to mean, anyway.) I thought this was relevant (in kind of an ironic way) because it proves that many situations in this game have multiple working solutions (different styles of play couldn't exist under this definition of "playstyle" otherwise), which further proves that different styles of play can be created from different sets of these working solutions.

So is radically changing your playstyle in a set something you think is possible? Even if you can approach situations in different ways hypothetically, can a player really implement different setups and punishes and neutral game strategies that easily with enough practice? Do you think it would be a viable strategy if it was possible?

Also 180 days update

Kreygasm

 

[Sprenzy]

I'm not sure if you addressed this before in one of your guides but I'd like to know how I can do those crazy movements with marth and just create illusions of deception

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, I was thinking about my style of Marth (I think I play similar to you, trying to always be threatening my opponent with my positioning and movement and all) and why I play this way, and a question occurred to me: is it possible for a player to change styles?

My idea was essentially to make a radical change of tempo and strategy between games in a set to throw the opponent off their adaptions, and maybe seal some early leads. But I'm not sure how realistic this would be in practice, because it might distract my mind too much and slow down my gameplay - regardless of how much practice I've had. Also it sounds low-key gimmicky.

The theorization here kind of comes from Umbreon's game theory. He's stated a few times that most players have the concept of "playstyle" backwards, and make their decisions based on how they want to play, rather than focusing on optimization and allowing what they think the right decisions are to create their "playstyle." (This is what I've understood his posts to mean, anyway.) I thought this was relevant (in kind of an ironic way) because it proves that many situations in this game have multiple working solutions (different styles of play couldn't exist under this definition of "playstyle" otherwise), which further proves that different styles of play can be created from different sets of these working solutions.

So is radically changing your playstyle in a set something you think is possible? Even if you can approach situations in different ways hypothetically, can a player really implement different setups and punishes and neutral game strategies that easily with enough practice? Do you think it would be a viable strategy if it was possible?

Also 180 days update

Kreygasm

I actually was starting to look into this around Apex 2015. I think it's VERY strong and used much more in other fighting games than in Melee so I've seen it be very effective. Umbreon is right that you need to know generally what is good and bad, but rules become breakable in different ways for different players, so I think optimization is a set of strong rules personalized to fit the individual.

I didn't really learn to play that way so I can't say too much for the learning process involving experimenting with other styles. However I can say that at least trying other perspectives out makes your own stronger. I did learn that on my own when improving. It's analogous to playing another character and having those skills(Marth spacing, spacie vertical game, etc) transfer over but instead of core character traits you're taking core gameplay/pvp abuses and switching them around to prioritize different things. Maybe you like to play a calculated game. If you do, then you'd likely benefit greatly from learning to play aggressively so you can round yourself out or transition between styles. That's just one example but I'd like to develop this theory further before giving any more.

I think switching styles is extremely strong, but even just rounding out your play is also very strong. How you prioritize that I'm not sure I can say, but I know the idea and the search is absolutely in the right place.

I'm not sure if you addressed this before in one of your guides but I'd like to know how I can do those crazy movements with marth and just create illusions of deception

If you want to go fast, first you have to be okay with going slow. Do basic techniques like wavedash, individual dashes, and slowly build speed while maintaining control between them. The other thing you have to do is internalize game concepts/knowledge of these tools to a very deep degree or you'll just be going fast with no purpose. If you have great understanding but no execution your knowledge will be useless. So you need both. There aren't really any shortcuts to this so you'll need more specific questions to get farther along.

 

[Sprenzy]

The other thing you have to do is internalize game concepts/knowledge of these tools to a very deep degree or you'll just be going fast with no purpose. If you have great understanding but no execution your knowledge will be useless. So you need both. There aren't really any shortcuts to this so you'll need more specific questions to get farther along.

okay so here's something that I noticed a lot during friendlies, I don't really know how to utilize dash dancing or wavedashing, I just dash dance randomly and hope I can avoid whatever they are trying to hit me with (usually they just get a free grab) so I can punish them (my punish game is not good however) since I suck at these, my stage presence, threat and positioning is obscure

so it begs the question, how do I internalize game concepts/knowledge of the tools to a very deep degree? how do I use the tools so that it has purpose? what does this really mean "If you have great understanding but no execution your knowledge will be useless"?

I know fully well that there are no shortcuts but I have a problem, the way that I am, is very difficult to be independent. there are somethings that I just can't figure out on my own, I can't analyze matches by myself, I don't know how to make good routine which is really bad on my part

 

[FE_Hector]

okay so here's something that I noticed a lot during friendlies, I don't really know how to utilize dash dancing or wavedashing, I just dash dance randomly and hope I can avoid whatever they are trying to hit me with (usually they just get a free grab) so I can punish them (my punish game is not good however) since I suck at these, my stage presence, threat and positioning is obscure

so it begs the question, how do I internalize game concepts/knowledge of the tools to a very deep degree? how do I use the tools so that it has purpose? what does this really mean "If you have great understanding but no execution your knowledge will be useless"?

I know fully well that there are no shortcuts but I have a problem, the way that I am, is very difficult to be independent. there are somethings that I just can't figure out on my own, I can't analyze matches by myself, I don't know how to make good routine which is really bad on my part

So, I can address some of this. As far as wavedashing and dash dancing randomly, you should be looking for something. Falco-Marth can be simplified easily down to: Falco's lasering in, Marth is trying to escape. My local scene has a ton of Marth's, and as such they've gotten very good at taking lasers and then baiting. They go where the Falco thinks OH HEY I CAN DAIR THEM and then dash dance grab the predictable aerial.

A lot of internalizing stuff really comes with playing and thinking about the game. Using tools so that they have a purpose all relates to their threatening range. I know that Tafo coached Atrioc on threatening range in one of the first season Zero to Hero episodes, and the first few season 1 Zero to Hero videos just really solidly cover some fundamental stuff that generally applies to all characters.

As far as understanding the game, but lacking execution, it's like this. Say you're playing somebody in friendlies. Every dash they do, every time they grab, every aerial they throw out, you know it's gonna happen. You know where it's gonna happen. You know when it's gonna happen. But your spacing is wrong. You whiff grabs and get punished for it. He punishes you for bad spacing. You don't react to your own reads in time. It's kinda like that. Basically, even if you understand every intricacy of a matchup, but can't capitalize on it, then it doesn't mean anything in the long run.

Learning independently is difficult, but possible. Watch a Marth match, pro or otherwise. If Marth gets a grab or a solid opening, back up the YouTube video and rewatch the last few seconds. Ask yourself "what happened that Marth got an opening" (or "what happened that Marth got hit"). Maybe Marth got a grab due to the positional DD bait I mentioned earlier vs Falco. It's hard to tell sometimes, but just rewatch that small clip until you understand what happened, and then figure out what happened with the next neutral exchange. And the next one. And the one after that.

For a training routine, there's really two things most players should work on: punish and movement. Neutral has a lot to do with understanding effective ranges and what's good and bad in a matchup, which you learn through watching videos and playing. But on your own, you should focus on how you create the openings, ensuring you can do whatever you want, whenever you want, and maximizing your punishes. Especially if you have 20XX, being able to zero to death a computer with random DI makes it way more likely you'll be able to zero to death a person with more predictable DI. For movement, practice different wavedash and dash dance distances. Play around with wavelands and platform movement. Make sure you're equally comfortable with tech on both sides of the stage (most players prefer one side of the stage or the other).

There's a lot of little stuff that adds up to getting better at this game, but hopefully some of those things I outlined help you out.

 

[Sprenzy]

I have another question, is it okay to practice dash dancing in the neutral game soley to be able to bait and avoid everything your opponent throws at you at a close range? So I'd do a steady dash dance rhythm and as soon as the player commits to the move then you can avoid it.
The point is being closest as possible to the opponent to constantly keep the threat

 

[FE_Hector]

I have another question, is it okay to practice dash dancing in the neutral game soley to be able to bait and avoid everything your opponent throws at you at a close range? So I'd do a steady dash dance rhythm and as soon as the player commits to the move then you can avoid it.
The point is being closest as possible to the opponent to constantly keep the threat

Yes, but you need to establish other threats to keep them from being too close. Fox dash in -> super quick nair isn't really possible to react to, so you should make sure he respects the threats you can establish. In the Fox case, it'll largely be dtilt because of how hard you can potentially get punished for jumping in neutral.

 

[Sprenzy]

Oh, I have another major problem whether I'm watching or playing matches, I can never usually recognize someone's patterns and habits. When I watch players' analysis they say that I notice how X does this every time x happens, or if you're like leffen [quote iirc] "How can you miss something so obvious? Jesus! Look, he's doing the same thing over and over again and he's not getting punished omg" so how do I train myself to be able to catch the habits and patters quicker? it's hard to tell since people are constantly adapting. I remember leffen saying how armada uses the same pattern but it took him a long time to realize that

 

[FE_Hector]

Oh, I have another major problem whether I'm watching or playing matches, I can never usually recognize someone's patterns and habits. When I watch players' analysis they say that I notice how X does this every time x happens, or if you're like leffen [quote iirc] "How can you miss something so obvious? Jesus! Look, he's doing the same thing over and over again and he's not getting punished omg" so how do I train myself to be able to catch the habits and patters quicker? it's hard to tell since people are constantly adapting. I remember leffen saying how armada uses the same pattern but it took him a long time to realize that

AFAIK it gets back to fighting game fundamentals. Smash fundamentals = what's good in what MU and being able to utilize whatever movement and tools whenever you need them. Fighting game fundamentals = having to think about the game and spot habits. You don't advance to fighting game fundamentals usually till somebody forces you to and you're really comfortable with most of your execution even in situations where you feel pressured.

 

[heyitshoward]

Yeah basically if you are so focused on the mechanics of your play (dashdance this, threaten here, fastfall that) then how can you expect to pick up on patterns and concepts so easily ingame? Skills are a pyramid that you have to build off of -- you can't properly fight someone unless you know how to control your character first, so focus on the essentials until you have them down, then move on to what's next on your improvement checklist.

I suggest looking up the "four stages of competence" and thinking about how they apply to smash -- first with getting your character to do what you want them to do, then with mindfulness about what your opponent is doing or wanting to do.

 

[Deleted member]

i like how kevins posts are all well thought out but in a match you know his thought process is like "brbrbrbrbrbr spankity spankity spankity dair"

 

[NIFOFD]

If anyone can explain this to me, I'd be grateful.

So I've been enjoying studying all of these M2K Armada Marth/Peach sets but I'm sort of confused by this scenario I keep seeing happen. A good example of this is at the 4:55 second mark (start of game 2) of this set here:
https://vods.co/v/hxtjkd?position=2&list=cE-Js61iGEdNUeShTLuaMFLjDhuOZs6MLnXmguiGBmc

So I can't really break down what's happening with the thought process behind these forward throw tech chases. I know from experience that Peach gets dash attacked on every DI except down or down/away. I'm guessing that Armada is choosing these downward DIs and that he has to tech at low %s because of it? Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this assumption please.

So at first I feel like I understand what's happening, but then M2K starts implementing the short hops after his FThrow. I've seen Marths do this in the Fox matchup where they cover the tech in place with nair, but M2K seems to be able to do the short hop and also react to tech roll in and grab it even with the short hop. But then when Armada DOES tech in place he does the nair (which happens to convert to FSmash). Is he purely reacting to the options Armada chooses, or there some element of prediction? If it is purely doable on reaction, why would you ever not do the short hop? Is he making choices based off of Peach's % here at all?

I'd love to figure this out, being able to get so much off of a grab on low % Peach seems great.

 

[Kyomaku]

...
Is he purely reacting to the options Armada chooses, or there some element of prediction? If it is purely doable on reaction, why would you ever not do the short hop? Is he making choices based off of Peach's % here at all?

I'd love to figure this out, being able to get so much off of a grab on low % Peach seems great.

I was going to analyze M2K's techchases in that set, once it was available on YouTube, cause I also would really like to implement that in my game vs Peach.

To actually contribute, I wanted to share my thoughts on your reaction-question. What I like to do when I'm analyzing decisions is, that I always try to pause the video the exact moment I see the information/frame that I want to react to and if Marth (the player) has already committed to his punish/decision, then I consider it a read, if he just started the punish/decision during or very close before I paused, then I consider it a reaction (or rather reactable). Worth noting though, if you consider something a read or super hard to react to, there is also the possibility that you missed the animation that the player reacted to, so rewatching it a few times and trying to spot an earlier frame you could react to could also be a solution that may help you greatly.

Another thing to note as well though is, that your monitor may greatly affect your reaction speed when testing this way, so if you have a bad one, it's probably not very reliable. You should then probably try to replicate the scenario in melee to make sure if it's reactable or not (you should always test it in melee as well, but especially important if your monitor is bad).

It has helped me quite a bit so far, but I'm still new so there might be an error/something that I missed, so feel free to correct me (also, people have a different reaction speed, but anticipation can help a lot with that, and to add to that, M2K's reaction speed is slightly above average as far as I remember, so you probably don't need amazing reaction speed for what he did, maybe just his insane experience if it was a read lol but we'll find that out very shortly after analyzing..)

Anyway, I hope this helps!

Edit: I just assumed you were talking about the UGC set, didn't expect you linked the BH6 set lol. You should really watch the UGC set from a few days ago if you haven't, yet, M2K's techchases were insane in that one as well, overall a lot to learn from for the Marth/Peach matchup, combined with PP's sets.

 

[NIFOFD]

I was going to analyze M2K's techchases in that set, once it was available on YouTube, cause I also would really like to implement that in my game vs Peach.

To actually contribute, I wanted to share my thoughts on your reaction-question. What I like to do when I'm analyzing decisions is, that I always try to pause the video the exact moment I see the information/frame that I want to react to and if Marth (the player) has already committed to his punish/decision, then I consider it a read, if he just started the punish/decision during or very close before I paused, then I consider it a reaction (or rather reactable). Worth noting though, if you consider something a read or super hard to react to, there is also the possibility that you missed the animation that the player reacted to, so rewatching it a few times and trying to spot an earlier frame you could react to could also be a solution that may help you greatly.

Another thing to note as well though is, that your monitor may greatly affect your reaction speed when testing this way, so if you have a bad one, it's probably not very reliable. You should then probably try to replicate the scenario in melee to make sure if it's reactable or not (you should always test it in melee as well, but especially important if your monitor is bad).

It has helped me quite a bit so far, but I'm still new so there might be an error/something that I missed, so feel free to correct me (also, people have a different reaction speed, but anticipation can help a lot with that, and to add to that, M2K's reaction speed is slightly above average as far as I remember, so you probably don't need amazing reaction speed for what he did, maybe just his insane experience if it was a read lol but we'll find that out very shortly after analyzing..)

Anyway, I hope this helps!

Edit: I just assumed you were talking about the UGC set, didn't expect you linked the BH6 set lol. You should really watch the UGC set from a few days ago if you haven't, yet, M2K's techchases were insane in that one as well, overall a lot to learn from for the Marth/Peach matchup, combined with PP's sets.

Yeah I actually was watching the set at 1/4th speed and pausing a lot to try to break down what was a read or not. I'm pretty sure tech in place is distinct enough that I could nair it on reaction. I'm starting to think that maybe if they tech away, Marth would have a lot of trouble covering that if he's in the air already. I noticed M2K tended to do the short hop when he was throwing Peach out towards the ledge so I was wondering if he was taking into account that Peach wouldn't be able to tech roll as far away. I'll probably rewatch the set when it becomes available to see if there are any counter examples.

 

[AirFair]

If anyone can explain this to me, I'd be grateful.

So I've been enjoying studying all of these M2K Armada Marth/Peach sets but I'm sort of confused by this scenario I keep seeing happen. A good example of this is at the 4:55 second mark (start of game 2) of this set here:
https://vods.co/v/hxtjkd?position=2&list=cE-Js61iGEdNUeShTLuaMFLjDhuOZs6MLnXmguiGBmc

So I can't really break down what's happening with the thought process behind these forward throw tech chases. I know from experience that Peach gets dash attacked on every DI except down or down/away. I'm guessing that Armada is choosing these downward DIs and that he has to tech at low %s because of it? Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this assumption please.

So at first I feel like I understand what's happening, but then M2K starts implementing the short hops after his FThrow. I've seen Marths do this in the Fox matchup where they cover the tech in place with nair, but M2K seems to be able to do the short hop and also react to tech roll in and grab it even with the short hop. But then when Armada DOES tech in place he does the nair (which happens to convert to FSmash). Is he purely reacting to the options Armada chooses, or there some element of prediction? If it is purely doable on reaction, why would you ever not do the short hop? Is he making choices based off of Peach's % here at all?

I'd love to figure this out, being able to get so much off of a grab on low % Peach seems great.

You are right in that Marth can punish peach for any DI that isn't down on fthrow, so that makes it the only way to escape, making the tech chase a common thing you will see. Marth can control peach's options pretty well here, so it's actually pretty nice.

The short hops give him a way to react to whatever Armada chooses to do, as he can fair/nair missed tech/tech in place, and cover techs away. The interesting thing here is that it is not pure reaction though. As m2k jumps towards Armada, he is aware that Armada will most likely pick a tech roll away or in to avoid the following swing, so he covers those first, which give him the first two grabs he gets. At that point, Armada is more likely to pick tech in place, since he guesses that m2k is more preoccupied with catching his rolls at this point. m2k knows this and thus it makes the reaction to it with nair much easier.

In this way, Marth conditions Peach to tech in place with his strong coverage of her rolls. You could of course opt to straight react to whatever she does, as the short hop gives you that ability, yet when you factor this conditioning in with the preference of your opponent, it makes it easier to look for the more likely options.

 

[ASCII]

Hey PP, what color tiara do you think Marth would look best in?

 

[FE_Hector]

Hey PP, what color tiara do you think Marth would look best in?

Way to ask the important questions!

 

[Dr Peepee]

i like how kevins posts are all well thought out but in a match you know his thought process is like "brbrbrbrbrbr spankity spankity spankity dair"

It was good seeing you. Hope you still check in here. =)

If anyone can explain this to me, I'd be grateful.

So I've been enjoying studying all of these M2K Armada Marth/Peach sets but I'm sort of confused by this scenario I keep seeing happen. A good example of this is at the 4:55 second mark (start of game 2) of this set here:
https://vods.co/v/hxtjkd?position=2&list=cE-Js61iGEdNUeShTLuaMFLjDhuOZs6MLnXmguiGBmc

So I can't really break down what's happening with the thought process behind these forward throw tech chases. I know from experience that Peach gets dash attacked on every DI except down or down/away. I'm guessing that Armada is choosing these downward DIs and that he has to tech at low %s because of it? Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this assumption please.

So at first I feel like I understand what's happening, but then M2K starts implementing the short hops after his FThrow. I've seen Marths do this in the Fox matchup where they cover the tech in place with nair, but M2K seems to be able to do the short hop and also react to tech roll in and grab it even with the short hop. But then when Armada DOES tech in place he does the nair (which happens to convert to FSmash). Is he purely reacting to the options Armada chooses, or there some element of prediction? If it is purely doable on reaction, why would you ever not do the short hop? Is he making choices based off of Peach's % here at all?

I'd love to figure this out, being able to get so much off of a grab on low % Peach seems great.

You can't dash attack DI in either but that's not really what you're asking about lol. Anyway yeah dash attack won't work on the down DI unless Peach goes offstage at certain mid percents(M2K gets it all the time just watch for it). M2K has this tech chase setup where he jumps to Fair tech in place and it tippers and he can grab tech rolls. It's pretty cheap. Armada often doesn't tech in place because he wants to make M2K do more work for percent so he could mess up, but it's just confusing to watch if you don't know this lol. M2K had to explain it to me himself after I commentated his summit set against armada and kept saying I had no idea why he did it too lol.

Hey PP, what color tiara do you think Marth would look best in?

Royal Silver always worked fine for me. I don't really know aesthetics though you're asking the wrong guy LOL

 

[capusa27]

Hi Dr Peepee

When beating out hitboxes such as Falcon stomp and N-Air and Pikachu N-Air, do you always prefer to use Dancing Blade as opposed to jab? Although jab ends two frames quicker than Dancing Blade and has a tipper hitbox, Marth can always use Dancing Blade directly out of dash, correct, without needing to turn or pivot?

Also, do you think that Marth should do better overall vs Falco than Fox? Why? Which character do you think Marth does better against right now?

Thanks, M :D

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'd use side B before jab for those moves since it comes out faster and can be used out of DD. Jab is a bit bigger though but I prefer jab primarily against Falco and sometimes vs Fox or in odd situations/to establish an off-beat position. It should be noted that side B can often trade in situations you'd want to use to react with it so you have to go early and guess sometimes. Jab has the same problem but it's bigger so if you tip it's not trading with those moves.

In response to what I think about what character Marth does better against, I have a feeling the answer is Falco but I feel an argument in my head for Fox as well. My Falco feeling is because I think I might be able to find a way to skew the laser minigame in Marth's favor. Fox has smaller moves and an easier recovery to gimp/early edgeguard(slower side B, no rising dair, smaller moves, this all before being forced to use up-B obviously). Also Fox is easier to combo and tech chase. Right now the answer is probably Fox since everyone is very bad against lasers and there are more Foxes to play against for the Marths so they're forced to be better at the matchup.

Marth needs to not freak out vs lasers and learn to tech chase spacies. Vs Falco he probably needs more work in gimp setups. Vs every character he could afford to zone better, but vs Falco that doesn't matter as much because of lasers.

 

[Dralro]

Dr Peepee

Hi PPMD, this may seem like a really weird question, but what do I do in the bowser matchup as marth, and more importantly, what can bowsers do against marths to aid in the matchup?

 

[Sylarius]

Hi PP

So in your matches against Armada's Peach from Apex 2015, there are some times you wavedash towards Peach, but facing away with them (your back is to Peach but you're wavedashing closer to her). There is an example here https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=1176 but I can distinctly remember other times you've done it, there's one moment I keep replaying in my head where you wavedash towards Armada twice (both while facing away), stand for a second and then turn around grab Peach in shield, but I don't know what moment it's at.

I am wondering what your reasoning/thought process is for this? Is it mostly done when you are at the end of your dash dance and can't turn around without doing the turnaround animation? Or is there another reason for it? Like for me, I generally try to keep myself facing the other player when I wavedash, the only time I don't is when I'm at the end of my dash dance range and am expecting to turn around grab or need to turn around soon so I wavedash away, the only time I wavedash towards them is when I'm tricking or calling them out pretty much (either when they are shielding/not approaching, or when they are catching my dash backs often and I feel dashing into them is safer). IDK, maybe I answered my own question but there may be some additional info you may know about?


As well, with the conclusion of UGC Open - what do you feel is the reasoning that Mew2King generally struggles against you, Hungrybox and Armada, but usually does decently well against Leffen, Mango and everyone else? My short impression is that Mango will almost always do whatever he wants to do even if it means he is less likely to win and Mew2King knows how to expect that kind of play from Mango, but I have no real explanation for any of the other top 6... your and Armada's mental games are often cited and I know you have spoken a bit about how you often aim to make your opponent uncomfortable by giving them situations they would rather not deal with, but would you say this has a big effect on why some players just seem to do well against Mew2King specifically? (Silent Wolf is another player who generally does well against M2K, iirc SW said he won his last 3/4 sets against M2K while every other Fox pretty much gets bodied regularly like SFAT, Lucky and Leffen).

This is just what I've been told (and somewhat observed) top players play, but it's hard for me to precisely define/understand it on my own; maybe you can add a bit of input? I have seen a ton of melee but idk, I don't feel I understand the game well enough. (I am from Canada but when I went to the US a few months ago, I took a game from R2DLiu and nearly Lucky but I essentially sd'd the gamewinning edgeguard lol. Both of them are better than me but I am not totally clueless)

M2K - Optimal punish / gameplay oriented, frequently camping for grabs/dashing in suddenly with smashes or grabs, and can adapt to some simple patterns
Armada - Very hard to faze?, precise spacing baits and aggression make you whiff or get hit frequently
Hungrybox - plays slow and understands very frequently how the other person will change their recovery based on how they were killed last time
Mango - "I am the greatest Melee player to ever touch a controller..." mostly constant aggression, the only two times I really remember him dash dancing/camping a bit more were against Hungrybox at some 2016 tourney (don't remember which) and game 5 of him vs Wizzrobe at WTFox2?
PPMD - PPMD Kreygasm, precise spacing on the ground and use of dash dance to win the neutral by forcing a whiff or by catching the other person doing an unsafe action?
Leffen - people have said he has a really good neutral and tech skill...
PewPewU - Use of zoning and aggressive aerials more frequently rather than pure dash dancing

Sorry for the long post! Tl;dr you wavedash towards Peach but with your back towards her, why? And why does M2K bop tons of players but not SW, Armada, you or HBox?

 

[AirFair]

Hi PP

So in your matches against Armada's Peach from Apex 2015, there are some times you wavedash towards Peach, but facing away with them (your back is to Peach but you're wavedashing closer to her). There is an example here https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=1176 but I can distinctly remember other times you've done it, there's one moment I keep replaying in my head where you wavedash towards Armada twice (both while facing away), stand for a second and then turn around grab Peach in shield, but I don't know what moment it's at.

I am wondering what your reasoning/thought process is for this? Is it mostly done when you are at the end of your dash dance and can't turn around without doing the turnaround animation? Or is there another reason for it? Like for me, I generally try to keep myself facing the other player when I wavedash, the only time I don't is when I'm at the end of my dash dance range and am expecting to turn around grab or need to turn around soon so I wavedash away, the only time I wavedash towards them is when I'm tricking or calling them out pretty much (either when they are shielding/not approaching, or when they are catching my dash backs often and I feel dashing into them is safer). IDK, maybe I answered my own question but there may be some additional info you may know about?


As well, with the conclusion of UGC Open - what do you feel is the reasoning that Mew2King generally struggles against you, Hungrybox and Armada, but usually does decently well against Leffen, Mango and everyone else? My short impression is that Mango will almost always do whatever he wants to do even if it means he is less likely to win and Mew2King knows how to expect that kind of play from Mango, but I have no real explanation for any of the other top 6... your and Armada's mental games are often cited and I know you have spoken a bit about how you often aim to make your opponent uncomfortable by giving them situations they would rather not deal with, but would you say this has a big effect on why some players just seem to do well against Mew2King specifically? (Silent Wolf is another player who generally does well against M2K, iirc SW said he won his last 3/4 sets against M2K while every other Fox pretty much gets bodied regularly like SFAT, Lucky and Leffen).

This is just what I've been told (and somewhat observed) top players play, but it's hard for me to precisely define/understand it on my own; maybe you can add a bit of input? I have seen a ton of melee but idk, I don't feel I understand the game well enough. (I am from Canada but when I went to the US a few months ago, I took a game from R2DLiu and nearly Lucky but I essentially sd'd the gamewinning edgeguard lol. Both of them are better than me but I am not totally clueless)

M2K - Optimal punish / gameplay oriented, frequently camping for grabs/dashing in suddenly with smashes or grabs, and can adapt to some simple patterns
Armada - Very hard to faze?, precise spacing baits and aggression make you whiff or get hit frequently
Hungrybox - plays slow and understands very frequently how the other person will change their recovery based on how they were killed last time
Mango - "I am the greatest Melee player to ever touch a controller..." mostly constant aggression, the only two times I really remember him dash dancing/camping a bit more were against Hungrybox at some 2016 tourney (don't remember which) and game 5 of him vs Wizzrobe at WTFox2?
PPMD - PPMD Kreygasm, precise spacing on the ground and use of dash dance to win the neutral by forcing a whiff or by catching the other person doing an unsafe action?
Leffen - people have said he has a really good neutral and tech skill...
PewPewU - Use of zoning and aggressive aerials more frequently rather than pure dash dancing

Sorry for the long post! Tl;dr you wavedash towards Peach but with your back towards her, why? And why does M2K bop tons of players but not SW, Armada, you or HBox?

I have a small idea about that wavedash I would like to share, and maybe see if it's sound or not.

At a glance, PP used the wd observationally after Armada threw out an fsmash by mistake, and was able to capitalize on his spotdodge. But how did he know to look for that? I would think that Peach could dash attack, yet Armada most likely wanted to refrain from it due to PP's spacing.

I went back to the beginning of that stock, and PP was using several wd dtilts to keep Armada cornered, unable to pull another turnip, and forcing her to try another means of escape. I believe that PP saw that Armada would often choose to shield instead of retreat or jump, and saw that his movement forward, and wd in particular could elicit such a defensive reaction. Due to this, he knew that he could put enormous pressure on Armada just by moving up to him, and had he held shield, he could get a prime opening.

Could be wrong, but I'd love to hear your thoughts!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee

Hi PPMD, this may seem like a really weird question, but what do I do in the bowser matchup as marth, and more importantly, what can bowsers do against marths to aid in the matchup?

As Marth, you do the thing you do to all bad characters- beat them with your sword. You don't need to DD Bowser or even grab him since he can't outspace you, especially when he's stuck in shield(which is often). As Bowser, you presumably want to use Ftilt/Fair/Bair as those are your faster bigger moves and bait Marth to come in so you can up-B OOS him I guess. Whatever Bowser is going through that I feel sorry for them tbh.

Hi PP

So in your matches against Armada's Peach from Apex 2015, there are some times you wavedash towards Peach, but facing away with them (your back is to Peach but you're wavedashing closer to her). There is an example here https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=1176 but I can distinctly remember other times you've done it, there's one moment I keep replaying in my head where you wavedash towards Armada twice (both while facing away), stand for a second and then turn around grab Peach in shield, but I don't know what moment it's at.

I am wondering what your reasoning/thought process is for this? Is it mostly done when you are at the end of your dash dance and can't turn around without doing the turnaround animation? Or is there another reason for it? Like for me, I generally try to keep myself facing the other player when I wavedash, the only time I don't is when I'm at the end of my dash dance range and am expecting to turn around grab or need to turn around soon so I wavedash away, the only time I wavedash towards them is when I'm tricking or calling them out pretty much (either when they are shielding/not approaching, or when they are catching my dash backs often and I feel dashing into them is safer). IDK, maybe I answered my own question but there may be some additional info you may know about?


As well, with the conclusion of UGC Open - what do you feel is the reasoning that Mew2King generally struggles against you, Hungrybox and Armada, but usually does decently well against Leffen, Mango and everyone else? My short impression is that Mango will almost always do whatever he wants to do even if it means he is less likely to win and Mew2King knows how to expect that kind of play from Mango, but I have no real explanation for any of the other top 6... your and Armada's mental games are often cited and I know you have spoken a bit about how you often aim to make your opponent uncomfortable by giving them situations they would rather not deal with, but would you say this has a big effect on why some players just seem to do well against Mew2King specifically? (Silent Wolf is another player who generally does well against M2K, iirc SW said he won his last 3/4 sets against M2K while every other Fox pretty much gets bodied regularly like SFAT, Lucky and Leffen).

This is just what I've been told (and somewhat observed) top players play, but it's hard for me to precisely define/understand it on my own; maybe you can add a bit of input? I have seen a ton of melee but idk, I don't feel I understand the game well enough. (I am from Canada but when I went to the US a few months ago, I took a game from R2DLiu and nearly Lucky but I essentially sd'd the gamewinning edgeguard lol. Both of them are better than me but I am not totally clueless)

M2K - Optimal punish / gameplay oriented, frequently camping for grabs/dashing in suddenly with smashes or grabs, and can adapt to some simple patterns
Armada - Very hard to faze?, precise spacing baits and aggression make you whiff or get hit frequently
Hungrybox - plays slow and understands very frequently how the other person will change their recovery based on how they were killed last time
Mango - "I am the greatest Melee player to ever touch a controller..." mostly constant aggression, the only two times I really remember him dash dancing/camping a bit more were against Hungrybox at some 2016 tourney (don't remember which) and game 5 of him vs Wizzrobe at WTFox2?
PPMD - PPMD Kreygasm, precise spacing on the ground and use of dash dance to win the neutral by forcing a whiff or by catching the other person doing an unsafe action?
Leffen - people have said he has a really good neutral and tech skill...
PewPewU - Use of zoning and aggressive aerials more frequently rather than pure dash dancing

Sorry for the long post! Tl;dr you wavedash towards Peach but with your back towards her, why? And why does M2K bop tons of players but not SW, Armada, you or HBox?

People ask about that first thing a lot. It's me feeling myself kinda lol but in terms of game mechanics it is an aggressive movement out of a dash away and you could either go in or move back out from it. Plus it's a jarring motion instead of smooth dashes so that can change the rhythm a lot too.

M2K likes death comboing stuff so he likes fighting Fox. Mango used to body him all of the time with Falco but then he got lazy(although M2K was lazy at that point so I guess I don't know who should actually win there). Anyway M2K can't death combo floaties and Falco keeps his neutral from flowing how he wants it to so he doesn't like those matchups. Silent Wolf brings up a useful point though. In my mind I see it as Silent Wolf having a more layered neutral understanding yet it's still controlled. Sfat flubs a significant amount even when playing well for example and SW's flubs aren't as common or costly. I think SW is fine vs floaties since he had to fight Bladewise so much and also Iceman perhaps.

My style is defensive offense, or offensive defense. It doesn't really need to be named in my mind, but Cactus and I also disagree on exactly how to define it so I opt to avoid style answers until I've done very deep analysis. I would say I strive very hard for balance regardless and prefer to be calculated and use setups to jar the opponent and make them slip. Whether that slip is running into me or running away doesn't matter much to me, which is why the neutral question is hard for me to answer.

Mango camped a lot vs floaties in 2014 but then stopped and now he tries but messes up so he just goes in and it doesn't end too well. He's not as aggressive as people make him out to be, but he's certainly pretty reckless these past few years.

 

[Dralro]

As Marth, you do the thing you do to all bad characters- beat them with your sword. You don't need to DD Bowser or even grab him since he can't outspace you, especially when he's stuck in shield(which is often). As Bowser, you presumably want to use Ftilt/Fair/Bair as those are your faster bigger moves and bait Marth to come in so you can up-B OOS him I guess. Whatever Bowser is going through that I feel sorry for them tbh.


People ask about that first thing a lot. It's me feeling myself kinda lol but in terms of game mechanics it is an aggressive movement out of a dash away and you could either go in or move back out from it. Plus it's a jarring motion instead of smooth dashes so that can change the rhythm a lot too.

M2K likes death comboing stuff so he likes fighting Fox. Mango used to body him all of the time with Falco but then he got lazy(although M2K was lazy at that point so I guess I don't know who should actually win there). Anyway M2K can't death combo floaties and Falco keeps his neutral from flowing how he wants it to so he doesn't like those matchups. Silent Wolf brings up a useful point though. In my mind I see it as Silent Wolf having a more layered neutral understanding yet it's still controlled. Sfat flubs a significant amount even when playing well for example and SW's flubs aren't as common or costly. I think SW is fine vs floaties since he had to fight Bladewise so much and also Iceman perhaps.

My style is defensive offense, or offensive defense. It doesn't really need to be named in my mind, but Cactus and I also disagree on exactly how to define it so I opt to avoid style answers until I've done very deep analysis. I would say I strive very hard for balance regardless and prefer to be calculated and use setups to jar the opponent and make them slip. Whether that slip is running into me or running away doesn't matter much to me, which is why the neutral question is hard for me to answer.

Mango camped a lot vs floaties in 2014 but then stopped and now he tries but messes up so he just goes in and it doesn't end too well. He's not as aggressive as people make him out to be, but he's certainly pretty reckless these past few years.

Thanks for the advice! And yes, it is unfortunate my training partner is a Marth main.

 

[Taytertot]

Let me clarify, there's nothing wrong with wanting to understand and be aware of options. That is a great preference to have. However, you can't really be doing the heavy lifting on analysis during a match. Your plan must already be solid and you must already know how situations play out mostly. What you can analyze is where you got hit or went wrong, usually between stocks. If you try to think, you slow yourself down. Subconscious thinking will always be faster, and you'll be less tense as well, so you'll actually see MORE than if you're trying to focus and analyze. It's counter to what you'd expect but I've read and experienced it many times over and highly recommend it. Now my conscious mind is still feeding me what they're doing and I'm plotting exactly how to beat it, but what they're doing should fall into pre-existing well thought out schemes I have and I should be executing patterns of attack I've repeatedly practiced so they don't distract my focus as well. So it's not much active thought so much as recognizing if that makes sense.

Yeah that autopilot question is pretty common. There are some different ways to attack this. The first is for many newer players/those that don't understand the game super well, they have to think more when playing. This is how you familiarize yourself with everything. Eventually, through analysis and training, you want to shift yourself over to more patterns of behavior so it's kind of like making your auto pilot really advanced, drawing on your conscious knowledge through experience. Your patterns shift based on conscious recognition of what they do, but they're faster as a result of flowing through actions you've made subconscious. I hope that helps explain it better, it's not an easy thing to understand.

so ive read that many new players focus solely on their own character and that causes them to be unaware of the what the other player is doing and so their practice should be on watching the opponent and the space between the two of you. and that players who focus on the opponent and space between should start trying to widen their vision to the entire stage because that makes you aware of everything going on.

with this in mind, do you feel that letting your subconscious do the work is effective at each of the latter two levels of focus? i see that you mentioned that newer players may have to remain aware until they are used to enough situations that they can stop needing conscious thought, but id like to delve into this a little more as someone who currently feels in a state of flux between these levels of focus. how much of a given situation needs to known before letting one's subconscious play the game and do you feel this changes as one is able to widen the amount of information their eyes are taking in?

also im kinda curious on your general thoughts on these levels of focus?

 

[Dr Peepee]

so ive read that many new players focus solely on their own character and that causes them to be unaware of the what the other player is doing and so their practice should be on watching the opponent and the space between the two of you. and that players who focus on the opponent and space between should start trying to widen their vision to the entire stage because that makes you aware of everything going on.

with this in mind, do you feel that letting your subconscious do the work is effective at each of the latter two levels of focus? i see that you mentioned that newer players may have to remain aware until they are used to enough situations that they can stop needing conscious thought, but id like to delve into this a little more as someone who currently feels in a state of flux between these levels of focus. how much of a given situation needs to known before letting one's subconscious play the game and do you feel this changes as one is able to widen the amount of information their eyes are taking in?

also im kinda curious on your general thoughts on these levels of focus?

I do feel that letting the subconscious do the work is fine, provided you've done the necessary time using conscious thought to practice the skill and deepen awareness and understanding. Generally speaking, when the actions feel like they take much less effort, or your knowledge condenses and you understand a lot of the complexity in a simple way after working through it are two good ways of thinking about the time to transition. Some people may never be "comfortable" with trusting themselves to do the work but may be comfortable with the skills that they need to make the transition. Comfort isn't a requirement necessarily is what I'm saying.

As for those levels of focus, it's been so long since I've really worked on it I don't have much to say. I find I can see more the more I trust myself and more I learn about the game and possible angles of attack and defense. That's probably not what you're looking for but it's all I've got for that question lol