Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[AirFair]

I don't use a setup for them, I just use pivot fsmash and pivot ftilt in neutral when I know they're going to approach with an aerial because it's super fast and doesn't only cover the ground like dtilt.

fair enough. If they're conditioned well enough then it shouldn't really matter, and if they are at a high enough percent, then it can kill them too, so that's pretty neat.

 

[UnderTheKnife]

I have a question regarding the conscious vs. unconscious discussion that happened awhile back, which helped me out a TON as far as how I think about the game and how to improve - thanks everyone

So, when watching videos of top players and analyzing them, figuring out how and why each player won a neutral exchange and all that - is the primary value that it builds gamesense and your "melee brain" so to speak? By watching exchanges and noticing patterns consciously, does that begin to translate into your own play after watching and analyzing a lot of videos? That's something I've seen in my own play, but I'm not sure how solid this Build The Melee Brain concept is!

On the same path, should watching your own videos primarily be to notice mistakes and specific things to highlight in practice? I know that analysis is a key part of improvement, but noting exactly what watching videos brings to the table would help a ton.

Thanks!

 

[Chesstiger2612]

About down+away DI in Marth v Marth:

Most of Marth's launchers are Sakurai angles (so 45° above a certain low knockback threshold), and you usually can't combo against down+away DI because they are either out of hitstun in time, in a knockdown situation or offstage. However, using a move with a higher angle (around 60°-70°) will allow you to combo against down+away DI like you combo against no DI with Sakurai angle launchers. For Marth, this is mainly tipper fair (67°).

I managed to combo into pivot f-smash at 20%, there should be a percentage range around it where it works but I think it is rather narrow because on the lower end Marth can jump out, while on the high end the launch speed is too high, and while you barely manage to catch up to Marth, by the time you perform the f-smash (during which you stand still) he is out of range again.

That doesn't take away from the fact that tipper fair is still good in this situation, you just have to choose an aerial followup.
You will be able to register your tipper hit by the time you have to commit to the pivot tipper, so you won't run the risk of throwing out a potentially whiffing f-smash.

The biggest risk I see in this setup is them crouchcancelling the tipper fair, but that is always the risk with attacking low-percent opponents, and if you do the fair right before landing, they won't be able to punish on reaction, so you have counterplay, making it a viable tool.

U UnderTheKnife
Match analysis helps in many ways. I'd argue the most important one is that you learn to recognize more patterns at the same time, and this one will translate very directly into your play because your brain just becomes faster at figuring out what the situation is in real time. Knowing the solution in that particular situation would be pointless if the time window to apply the solution is already over by the time you recognized the situation.

Watching your own videos can be useful because while playing, noticing your mistakes is more difficult. But, chances are you either already know what you are doing wrong, and a lot of the time you could figure out how to be better at individual microsituations, but the knowledge gained from this is very "uncondensed" and one tends to be overwhelmed by it, to not be able to apply it in real-time, to forget it or to apply it in situations that look similar to you but need to be treated very differently.
The most useful thing about watching your own videos is recognizing what is costing you most at the moment and what areas of the game you need to focus on.
Note that it is different if a player with higher game understanding looks at your video. They might be able to point out your core misunderstandings, which can help a lot and is one of the reasons coaches are so effective in all fields of learning. This happens most commonly if they had to deal with the same misunderstanding at some point and therefore easily recognize it, also it requires them to be good at explaining things. If these conditions are not met, they will most likely point out individual mistakes you made that are also recognizable to you, although they might mention a few general principles that apply in these situations in the process, or you can take something from the way they talk about the game, so it is not completely unhelpful either.

When watching matches between strong players, you need to understand why the options they choose are so strong. My method for this is to take one reaction time span (I always assume 15 frames which is an average reaction time, it is usually a little more in reality because what you register is more complex than a simple yes/no reaction, but working this way around is safer than assuming more), and replace it with different actions to look at possible outcomes.
For example, not being able to hit the other player with a certain move with the altered inputs in the reaction time span means that the player is outside of that move's threat zone.
Other things to look out for are how top players use threat zones to retain pressure if they have no true punish, or to shift the risk/reward-ratio in their favour when using unsafe moves.
You can do this when looking at your own games, too, and see if you are always dashdancing inside threat zones without noticing or something...

For understanding new concepts and condensing your knowledge of individual game situations into a solid gameplan, discussion, especially with strong players, is very helpful in my opinion. It often requires an idea coming out of nowhere and usually more people have more of them than one person has. Also make sure to test these ideas and possibly find exceptions to the rule, because in a game as complex as Melee those exceptions almost always exist.

 

[maclo4]

Hey pp,
Would you be able to critique a match of mine? Or is that not really something that you do in this thread?
Either way, I was wondering what you think the most common mistakes that people make when playing against lasering falcos are.
Sorry if youve answered this before, and here is a link to me on netplay it would make my day if you looked at it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JAc_Kk0Xtg
Thanks

 

[Deleted member]

Hey pp,
Would you be able to critique a match of mine? Or is that not really something that you do in this thread?
Either way, I was wondering what you think the most common mistakes that people make when playing against lasering falcos are.
Sorry if youve answered this before, and here is a link to me on netplay it would make my day if you looked at it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JAc_Kk0Xtg
Thanks

how about i'll do it instead. i watched for about 90 seconds, which is ~ 60 seconds longer than i watch most people when giving critiques

1. you ledge play is sloppy. clean that up.

2. you have the right idea on your movements and placements but you play like a new player. it's okay to be more aggressive than you are. kill them harder and don't worry about getting hit so much.

3. you're too focused on hitting him and not necessarily using your conversions to set up position. part of this is dreamland 64 being a ****ty stage, but you have a pattern of it so i can see you still do that on other stages. you have to set up your hits to keep the opponent in a **** position so you can kill them at 30 and laugh. if you're just trying to hit them just to hit them, you'll get marthritis, or you'll miss tip and hit blade and still get punished for it, or your swings will feel slow, and you'll undervalue marths toolkit and end up switching to fox/falco/falcon where that plays out much better.

you do a lot of random jumps that i'm guessing are missed wavedashes (i do this too from pressing the trigger too lightly). you are also too quick to 2nd jump after an opponent above you. tldr jump less, practice wavedashes, and be willing to simply wait on the ground for the opponent to come down.

 

[Zorcey]

how about i'll do it instead. i watched for about 90 seconds, which is ~ 60 seconds longer than i watch most people when giving critiques

1. you ledge play is sloppy. clean that up.

2. you have the right idea on your movements and placements but you play like a new player. it's okay to be more aggressive than you are. kill them harder and don't worry about getting hit so much.

3. you're too focused on hitting him and not necessarily using your conversions to set up position. part of this is dreamland 64 being a ****ty stage, but you have a pattern of it so i can see you still do that on other stages. you have to set up your hits to keep the opponent in a **** position so you can kill them at 30 and laugh. if you're just trying to hit them just to hit them, you'll get marthritis, or you'll miss tip and hit blade and still get punished for it, or your swings will feel slow, and you'll undervalue marths toolkit and end up switching to fox/falco/falcon where that plays out much better.

you do a lot of random jumps that i'm guessing are missed wavedashes (i do this too from pressing the trigger too lightly). you are also too quick to 2nd jump after an opponent above you. tldr jump less, practice wavedashes, and be willing to simply wait on the ground for the opponent to come down.

I really love Umbreon's teaching style lol. We mid-level players often have this tendency to obsess over questions about the microgame and mus while ignoring how much we can still improve our fundamentals and our understanding of our own character. These posts always help to put my training in perspective, this thread is pretty amazing.

 

[Deleted member]

I really love Umbreon's teaching style lol. We mid-level players often have this tendency to obsess over questions about the microgame and mus while ignoring how much we can still improve our fundamentals and our understanding of our own character. These posts always help to put my training in perspective, this thread is pretty amazing.

it also lets me sound really condescending while stating the obvious.

"dont get hit"

bring in the masturbatory post doc kids >

 

[maclo4]

it also lets me sound really condescending while stating the obvious.

"dont get hit"

bring in the masturbatory post doc kids >

So what exactly should I do differently to get hits for positioning? Like just be active about pushing them towards the edge?

 

[Deleted member]

So what exactly should I do differently to get hits for positioning? Like just be active about pushing them towards the edge?

think more broadly, try to set it up such that they have no stage and are forced to attack you or air dodge, then attack their attacks because yours always win

 

[capusa27]

Merry Christmas everyone/PPMD !

 

[Kopaka]

Merry Christmas, these last 30 pages of the thread have been awesome, here's to another year of great discussion!

 

[AirFair]

Merry Christmas everyone!

just to try and add something to this post, has everyone seen this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4472IY3d3-M (Leffen talking about retreating nair as Fox vs Marth)

How do you guys feel Marth can deal with this and it's mixups into overshoot nair?

From what I've heard form others and seen on my own, Marth can cover retreating nair with his fair, provided that he doesn't dash too far away. I think this can be more effective than trying to always dd grab nair, since you can better react to the undershoot without having to worry too much about getting overshot on, as you can dd grab the overshot nair.

 

[Kopaka]

Merry Christmas everyone!

just to try and add something to this post, has everyone seen this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4472IY3d3-M (Leffen talking about retreating nair as Fox vs Marth)

How do you guys feel Marth can deal with this and it's mixups into overshoot nair?

From what I've heard form others and seen on my own, Marth can cover retreating nair with his fair, provided that he doesn't dash too far away. I think this can be more effective than trying to always dd grab nair, since you can better react to the undershoot without having to worry too much about getting overshot on, as you can dd grab the overshot nair.

I like the part at the end where he says "spam it in situations you see good people do it/spam it to a stupid degree/against a ****ton of moves"

 

[Deleted member]

merry christmas kevin and may your black hole glitches always freeze the ****ing game lmao

lmk if you make it up to pennsylvania any time soon

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Merry Christmas everyone!

just to try and add something to this post, has everyone seen this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4472IY3d3-M (Leffen talking about retreating nair as Fox vs Marth)

How do you guys feel Marth can deal with this and it's mixups into overshoot nair?

From what I've heard form others and seen on my own, Marth can cover retreating nair with his fair, provided that he doesn't dash too far away. I think this can be more effective than trying to always dd grab nair, since you can better react to the undershoot without having to worry too much about getting overshot on, as you can dd grab the overshot nair.

You can place a fair in a way that it beats both abovementioned nair methods, by aiming at the start of their jump. However, you will have very little information on what the Fox does by the time you have to commit to the fair, so if he ends up avoiding it, that can put you in a bad spot. You can, as Leffen mentions, also grab the start of the jump, which offers more reward but can be whiffpunished easier.
A clean way to beat both mentioned options is crouchcancelling in the zone they want to cover with the overshot nair, both nair methods can be grabbed that way, but then again, crouchcancelling is the reason Foxes generally don't use nair as much at low %s.
There is a multitude of options that beats one of the nair methods while remaining in neutral against the other one. Dashing far back beats the overshot nair, although it gives up stage against other options. Same with using a hitbox (fair, nair) at a spacing where it is far enough away to have a decent outcome against the undershot nair, or using dash away->shield. You need to have set up the movement correctly to be able to do these, Fox's ability to shine after the nair makes the punish windows very small.
Marth's low profile while dashing/wavedashing can allow you to dash under the overshot nair while being able to punish the undershot nair. This one is a bit tricky in timing and spacing.

I only looked at it briefly (please correct me if someone looked at this more closely), but to me it seems like grabbing the startup would be the best callout, it beats a few other options too (like run in->grab), doesn't have the same difficulties as any strategies trying to punish Fox's cooldowns and grabs are very rewarding. Using it sparingly should skew the risk/reward enough to reduce the danger of the mixup. Don't construct your entire neutral game around beating under- and overshot nair, Fox has a big toolbox and a lot of the time, if DI'd well the nairs don't even lead into much.

For further study, I recommend Hax$ vs [Marth player] sets (for example Mew2King vs Hax, MLG 2014) because he uses these nairs very often. One thing to mention here are the empty short hops in place, these are potential nairs, but delaying the decision whether to nair or not and waiting for further information is a very flexible option and in case the additional information indicates the chance of landing the nair is low, you don't need to use it and don't have landing lag and can even waveland.

Merry Christmas everyone

 

[t3tsubo]

What's your thought process/triggers for knowing when shield-drop-aerials or shield drops in general are the correct option in a given situation as marth? I find myself defaulting to shield drop up-air when I'm on platforms and my opponent is coming down on me, but I'd like to incorporate the tech more in my playstyle in other situations.

 

[gcboy]

What's your thought process/triggers for knowing when shield-drop-aerials or shield drops in general are the correct option in a given situation as marth? I find myself defaulting to shield drop up-air when I'm on platforms and my opponent is coming down on me, but I'd like to incorporate the tech more in my playstyle in other situations.

Am I in shield or rolling on a platform? Are they unsafely pressuring me from above or about to go under me? If so then shield drop

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee I'm trying to structure my practice so I can get as much as I can out of it, but I'm uncertain about my judgement with a few things. Practicing tech and the punish game in the lab is intuitive enough, as is set analysis, but when playing with others, I'm not sure whether I would get more out of focusing on the macrogame (positioning and threat zones, you know) or the microgame (optimal punishes, how to avoid this particular attack, etc) or when I should switch it up. I also keep failing to implement new tech or to experiment because I'm trying to refine what I already know. I'm trying to process everything all at once when I play and at some point my mind shuts off because I'm overwhelming it. I'm just getting frustrated at how much I suck and I feel like I'm not accomplishing anything.

I know I need to break it down and tighten my focus when playing but I'm not sure how or what to start with or where my priorities should lie. Do you have any suggestions for the actual structuring of practice? (I feel like I could especially use mindset advice.) Even advice that doesn't relate directly to my question would be appreciated if you don't mind offering it - I want as much insight as I can get.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It sounds like you have a problem a lot of people have, which is to say you don't have a friendlies plan and hope things come together. There is a better way. If you come into the session with clear goals to practice(I want to work on combos/edgeguards/defensive play/tech chasing/DI/these situations/etc) then you will always have something to directly work on. We need specifics to direct our focus well, so instead of nebulous concepts, try to make things as specific as possible. If you want to work on how to make the most of stage position, then get specific. What do I want to try when I have stage advantage? When I don't? What does it mean on FD vs BF? Unless you have specific plays you want to try out or at the least specific parts of your game you want to focus on, the vague nature of your thoughts will keep you from focusing. Additionally, having specifics keeps you from overloading yourself since you have clearly defined things to work on.

As for where to start like your second paragraph suggests, as long as you're working on some fundamental then it doesn't matter. The important thing is to do it and then remember what you did afterward so you can improve.

 

[lokt]

hi friends,

what do you guys like to do after fox/falco crouch cancels your non tipper dtilt(outside of shine range)?

i'd imagine some common responses to this would be to jump, shield, jab. Maybe jc shine could be a true punish? they could also dash forward if they think you'll run away

as marth it seems that grabbing while holding down would be a strong option, whereas fair/dashing back/utilt might be good if you predict a jump?

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee I'm trying to structure my practice so I can get as much as I can out of it, but I'm uncertain about my judgement with a few things. Practicing tech and the punish game in the lab is intuitive enough, as is set analysis, but when playing with others, I'm not sure whether I would get more out of focusing on the macrogame (positioning and threat zones, you know) or the microgame (optimal punishes, how to avoid this particular attack, etc) or when I should switch it up. I also keep failing to implement new tech or to experiment because I'm trying to refine what I already know. I'm trying to process everything all at once when I play and at some point my mind shuts off because I'm overwhelming it. I'm just getting frustrated at how much I suck and I feel like I'm not accomplishing anything.

I know I need to break it down and tighten my focus when playing but I'm not sure how or what to start with or where my priorities should lie. Do you have any suggestions for the actual structuring of practice? (I feel like I could especially use mindset advice.) Even advice that doesn't relate directly to my question would be appreciated if you don't mind offering it - I want as much insight as I can get.

And if you haven't already, take a look here:

Only way you're gonna learn is to practice the skill. Losing really doesn't matter especially in friendlies. It's a conditioned response to tense up about losing, so practicing letting go doubles as good investment in loss as well as teaching yourself new skills like playing to learn. The end result is someone who doesn't fear losing but is sharp and hungry for the win. A great competitor!

I still think this is really tough, and there's a ton of different scenarios where this could be more tough than it should be (Crowds, particular people you're playing against, maybe something your opponent is doing that you don't like) So maybe when a situation like that does come up, it could be the perfect time to practice letting go and staying sharp on whats actually important.

It could also be discouraging to see other people improving faster than you are. This is something I've struggled with, but the way I'm starting to see it now is that it's the perfect opportunity to get down and learn how to beat the strategies your opponents are coming up with, instead of being afraid to lose.I totally agree with PP on specifics, also something I've struggled with before lol. It's sometimes hard to not be overwhelmed since there's so many aspects the game that anyone could work on. But bucking down and gettin real specific really helps!

 

[Zorcey]

I still think this is really tough, and there's a ton of different scenarios where this could be more tough than it should be (Crowds, particular people you're playing against, maybe something your opponent is doing that you don't like) So maybe when a situation like that does come up, it could be the perfect time to practice letting go and staying sharp on whats actually important.

It could also be discouraging to see other people improving faster than you are. This is something I've struggled with, but the way I'm starting to see it now is that it's the perfect opportunity to get down and learn how to beat the strategies your opponents are coming up with, instead of being afraid to lose.I totally agree with PP on specifics, also something I've struggled with before lol. It's sometimes hard to not be overwhelmed since there's so many aspects the game that anyone could work on. But bucking down and gettin real specific really helps!

Yeah, I have. I think the hardest thing for me is not improving at the rate I think I "should" be, rather than fear of losing. Almost nobody who has ever said this has come anywhere close to accomplishing it - to the point where it makes you sound like a joke to say it - but I play with the idea that I'm working towards being the best; I feel like that pressure on myself makes me work my hardest. I really want to be the best, so every aspect of my gameplay that I see as imperfect frustrates me and makes me want to work on it (to the point I overwhelm myself with things to fix and end up not working on anything with a lot of depth). It's hard to disregard weak spots in my gameplay, but obviously it's something I need to reconcile myself to if I want to specify my focus.

 

[Kopaka]

So long as you have a positive motivation behind whatever the reason is to begin improving in the first place, you'll keep going. What does being the best mean to you? Is it someone who is perfect? You mentioned imperfection, so is the ideal "best" player someone who's perfect in every aspect of their gameplay? That's impossible, right? There could be conflict going on with what you think your standard is and what's humanly possible. If you find yourself frustrated that you're not improving at the rate you are, maybe take a step back. Careful not to think that you're suddenly untouchable when you do start feeling you're improving. Guard your mind, because the ego is a very fragile thing. It gets hurt easily. The less susceptible you are to discouragement when thing's don't really go your way, the more perspective you'll have on what's really important.

 

[Zorcey]

Well yeah, but the concern would be not improving at a rate fast enough to be "the best" while my physical faculties are capable of playing at the top level. To define that, "the best" isn't necessarily someone who's perfect, but it is someone who can beat every other player and is consistent (this brings to mind Armada, as a reference); the reason I strive for perfection in my gameplay isn't for the sake of blindly achieving perfection itself, but coming as close to it as I can so I can beat everyone else. I don't have any delusions that I'll actually achieve perfection, but holding myself to that standard - that if I were playing to win I should be playing perfect - accelerates my progression to the top (I think) because it constantly reinforces that I can improve. What would you define as "what's really important"? I haven't been playing this game very long yet, but from the beginning my goal has been improvement. (Though of course I haven't always been sure of methodology, hence my original question for PP lol, so maybe what I'm saying is bull****.)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah, I have. I think the hardest thing for me is not improving at the rate I think I "should" be, rather than fear of losing. Almost nobody who has ever said this has come anywhere close to accomplishing it - to the point where it makes you sound like a joke to say it - but I play with the idea that I'm working towards being the best; I feel like that pressure on myself makes me work my hardest. I really want to be the best, so every aspect of my gameplay that I see as imperfect frustrates me and makes me want to work on it (to the point I overwhelm myself with things to fix and end up not working on anything with a lot of depth). It's hard to disregard weak spots in my gameplay, but obviously it's something I need to reconcile myself to if I want to specify my focus.

I don't have a major problem with your motivations or your work ethic, but I do think you will find you can improve faster if you take it easier on yourself. It's an incredibly difficult thing to do, but relieving tension in this way gives you more insight and more relaxation when playing, which is a big advantage. Competing is about personal growth just as much as it is about SSBM growth.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Any opinions on recent Mew2King (Marth) - Mango (Falco) matches?

Spoiler

Dreamhack Austin Losers Finals
EGLX Winners Quarters
UGC Open Losers Top 16

To me, the neutral game seemed very weird at first, but it also makes sense in a lot of ways. In comparison to other Marth's in that matchup, Mew2King doesn't dashdance nearly as much, instead using mixups between an attack in place (like up-tilt or aerials), shield, and occasionaly moving forward with an attack (dash attack or dash->grab). He also has a great laser powershield rate which is required if you do not use dash forward as much.
This gameplan's main advantage is that you abuse Falco's slow ground movement by not moving forward too much, which would allow Falco to use attacks with a decent chance of hitting, while having no risk of being punished on startup. Punishing cooldown would be riskier because with shine, spot dodge->shine, another aerial, or shield Falco has a multitude of strong options available as soon as he is actionalbe.
In comparison, if you don't move forward, using attacks in place would do nothing but create a frame disadvantage for Falco. So what is left is baiting out an attack in place, which runs the risk of getting grabbed because you have to be rather close, doing a dash sh aerial which would be countered by attacks in place, and, depending on the spacing, sometimes shield, lasering, which doesn't lead to much from a far distance and is risky if PS'd at close distance. There are a few other options worth considering, too (utilizing full jumps, for example).
It should also be noted that the high threat range of dash->grab forces Falco to stay at a distance from which whiff punishing even rather laggy moves can be problematic.
The disadvantage is that Marth, giving up space in a few situations (for example when reading a dash sh aerial and trying to grab it) and only taking it back when there is little risk, quickly ends up getting cornered. At that point the risk-reward is skewed against him and the dash away option is taken away.
I'm not too sure what to take away from this, I like that the gameplan uses Falco being slow (because, imo, that's the Achilles heel of the character), but in many microsituations, using more flexible/less commital options should be considered (not going into too much detail here, but for example f-smash in neutral feels wrong to me most of the time, and I haven't seen jab to beat dash sh aerial at all iirc, which I think is a strong option).

btw, Dr Peepee have you received my message?

 

[HighlyEducational]

I'm sure this has been discussed previously but quick question, how can I take advantage of laser heavy Falcos? Is there a specific opening I should be looking out for? Generally, I believe you dashdance and navigate through the lasers, anticipate a laser after a shorthop, and rush in with a grab, fair, etc. I am unsure if this is entirely accurate but is there a way that laser heavy Falcos or pressure related situations in the Falco matchup in general could be further expanded upon? Thank you.

 

[Zorcey]

I don't have a major problem with your motivations or your work ethic, but I do think you will find you can improve faster if you take it easier on yourself. It's an incredibly difficult thing to do, but relieving tension in this way gives you more insight and more relaxation when playing, which is a big advantage. Competing is about personal growth just as much as it is about SSBM growth.

Yeah, I know what you mean. It seems kind of counterintuitive tho (as a concept), and it's definitely hard. I find I can relax easier if I happen to be playing well, but I have the tendency to psych myself out a lot by trying too hard to analyze what I'm suddenly doing so correctly and losing momentum - which just kind of circles back to my original problem. My relationship to this game still has a lot of maturing to do, but I think I'm doing my best in the meantime. I want to work on this tho. Out of curiosity PP, would you say your personal growth or your in-game growth has contributed more to your success as a competitor?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Initially, my in-game abilities were virtually all that I needed. There would be small personal moments but they were tiny by comparison. After I became a top player the two became entirely intertwined as I had a lot of growing as a person to do. I think after a certain point improving in one area is improving in all areas, but I can only speak for high level performers since that's what I experienced and the only group I've read about. I'm not sure where that line begins for an average player or even a high level player. So I guess I could answer your question by saying my in-game skill has contributed far more to my success, but to develop my neutral like I did and relieve so much tension in myself so I could feel confident about playing and really shoot to be one of the best I needed personal growth. I hope that helps.

 

[LKratos]

Hi PP,

I had a question about Marth's remaining unexplored potential. Specifically, areas where pivot f-smash still has room to be implemented. For example, when you don't include pivots, Marth essentially has 3 critical ranges of using f-smash; standing still, after a wavedash, and at the beginning of the run animation. The latter two options trade a specific amount of horizontal movement at the expense of startup, at some ratio X for each option. With the inclusion of the ability to pivot F-smash at will out of dash dance, this allows a horizontal change with much less of a tradeoff for startup, and opens up a lot of opportunities I think.

So like, for instance sometimes a stray aerial like a fair or nair will lead to a tipper. But there are also instances where you can just barely not get a tipper, but you can get dash forward pivot tipper. You see where I'm going, this applies to literally any situation where the conversion of that horizontal distance allows for a hit when it otherwise wouldn't.

Edge-cancelling aerials is another area with a lot of unexplored potential I think, but I wanted to get your thoughts in general. I honestly believe that in the next era of meta development, Marth will kind of break through as a yang to the Fox 20XX yin, but that's another story

 

[Syaith]

Hey @PPMD, this question doesn't pertain directly to marth but sort of indirectly through out-of-game, psychological aspects. What are your current goals as to playing melee? What do you still want to get out of the game? Why are you still playing this game? If you're okay answering this, what are your larger life goals and how do those relate to melee?

You've spoke before here and elsewhere about the enormous personal growth you've gotten out of playing this game, but it seems like you've reached a stage where you see yourself more as a guru, a teacher, a sort of melee consultant. You are even more active not on twitter, but on this very thread, which I am amazed still shows signs of life and is pretty on topic most of the time. What more is there to get out of the game?

This is probably pretentious to say but I think I've spent enough years playing, researching, thinking about, talking to others to have reached a height of progress in melee where I can fairly assess how much I don't know and how much work it would require to fill the gaps, and honestly I currently do not have enough motivators to continue trying to improve in the game. The desire to beat someone else is perhaps one of the strongest motivators I've felt relating to this game and now that I'm on par with most of the players in my area that's no longer a strong motivator for me. I can understand why I lose or win games, both in terms of in-game situational analysis and out-of-game mental aspects, and how my opponent outplayed me or I outplayed my opponent throughout the course of a game. I think I have a decent understanding of any character's options in a given situation. I guess I can come up with a detailed gameplan on how to beat players out-of-region, but I won't be able to travel there anyhow, and where's the fun in that. For me I think I've come full circle: melee is now just a game I play competitively but in a casual way, and just play when I get that melee fix.

 

[Kopaka]

For PP/Anyone, to go back to the "be specific as possible" thing, I remembered you mentioning "Condense intense studying into..." (i'm tired and can't remember exactly what the last part was but I think what I do remember is fine ). I thought about that a lot recently and it got me thinking about just having 3 or maybe 4 specific rules for each matchup. Also relating to the whole 'be specific as possible' thing. Right now I do think it can help, because say you have a rule, and it's to use dtilt against ice climbers. You focus on that rule, which is making you focus on how you want to space to have the dtilt connect, or not connect, and if something goes wrong, like "oops it hit their shield a bit too close and now I'm being hit" or in a different way like "well i've hit them with dtilt a bunch, now they're adapting by doing...." Or "How do I get the space I want without giving up stage control or being hit?" So you play off a small amount of rules, which on paper is used to not over-complicate an already complicated game, but in your head you're learning how those rules really work in all kinds of situations and stages, and you learn how to adapt by your own rules.

 

[Zorcey]

For PP/Anyone, to go back to the "be specific as possible" thing, I remembered you mentioning "Condense intense studying into..." (i'm tired and can't remember exactly what the last part was but I think what I do remember is fine ). I thought about that a lot recently and it got me thinking about just having 3 or maybe 4 specific rules for each matchup. Also relating to the whole 'be specific as possible' thing. Right now I do think it can help, because say you have a rule, and it's to use dtilt against ice climbers. You focus on that rule, which is making you focus on how you want to space to have the dtilt connect, or not connect, and if something goes wrong, like "oops it hit their shield a bit too close and now I'm being hit" or in a different way like "well i've hit them with dtilt a bunch, now they're adapting by doing...." Or "How do I get the space I want without giving up stage control or being hit?" So you play off a small amount of rules, which on paper is used to not over-complicate an already complicated game, but in your head you're learning how those rules really work in all kinds of situations and stages, and you learn how to adapt by your own rules.

This was actually the same approach I decided to try after thinking about PP's advice. It makes sense on paper because it tests/improves upon your matchup knowledge while at the same time increasing your understanding of your character and the shortcomings in your gameplay; it sounds hella efficient. The most notable flaws I can think of are that it doesn't directly incentivize you to innovate if what you're doing works, and it doesn't really cover microgame situations or implementing fundamental tech, but maybe you could get around that by adapting your rules to not necessarily be "optimal" in friendlies, but just to encompass what in the matchup you have to work on?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi PP,

I had a question about Marth's remaining unexplored potential. Specifically, areas where pivot f-smash still has room to be implemented. For example, when you don't include pivots, Marth essentially has 3 critical ranges of using f-smash; standing still, after a wavedash, and at the beginning of the run animation. The latter two options trade a specific amount of horizontal movement at the expense of startup, at some ratio X for each option. With the inclusion of the ability to pivot F-smash at will out of dash dance, this allows a horizontal change with much less of a tradeoff for startup, and opens up a lot of opportunities I think.

So like, for instance sometimes a stray aerial like a fair or nair will lead to a tipper. But there are also instances where you can just barely not get a tipper, but you can get dash forward pivot tipper. You see where I'm going, this applies to literally any situation where the conversion of that horizontal distance allows for a hit when it otherwise wouldn't.

Edge-cancelling aerials is another area with a lot of unexplored potential I think, but I wanted to get your thoughts in general. I honestly believe that in the next era of meta development, Marth will kind of break through as a yang to the Fox 20XX yin, but that's another story

Yeah you're right about all of this regarding pivots. It can really help with that particular Marth struggle of not killing at higher percents when you can't combo as well.

I don't prefer to be a Marth on platforms, but I do think there is unexplored potential in his platform game in neutral and of course this means edge canceled aerials will play a role as well. This could be especially useful when getting down from a juggling position come to think of it.

Hey @PPMD, this question doesn't pertain directly to marth but sort of indirectly through out-of-game, psychological aspects. What are your current goals as to playing melee? What do you still want to get out of the game? Why are you still playing this game? If you're okay answering this, what are your larger life goals and how do those relate to melee?

You've spoke before here and elsewhere about the enormous personal growth you've gotten out of playing this game, but it seems like you've reached a stage where you see yourself more as a guru, a teacher, a sort of melee consultant. You are even more active not on twitter, but on this very thread, which I am amazed still shows signs of life and is pretty on topic most of the time. What more is there to get out of the game?

This is probably pretentious to say but I think I've spent enough years playing, researching, thinking about, talking to others to have reached a height of progress in melee where I can fairly assess how much I don't know and how much work it would require to fill the gaps, and honestly I currently do not have enough motivators to continue trying to improve in the game. The desire to beat someone else is perhaps one of the strongest motivators I've felt relating to this game and now that I'm on par with most of the players in my area that's no longer a strong motivator for me. I can understand why I lose or win games, both in terms of in-game situational analysis and out-of-game mental aspects, and how my opponent outplayed me or I outplayed my opponent throughout the course of a game. I think I have a decent understanding of any character's options in a given situation. I guess I can come up with a detailed gameplan on how to beat players out-of-region, but I won't be able to travel there anyhow, and where's the fun in that. For me I think I've come full circle: melee is now just a game I play competitively but in a casual way, and just play when I get that melee fix.

Yeah your position is similar to what I and many others at the top(or top of their respective areas) go through. After I got very satisfied, my relationship to the game changed. I stopped having the fire to improve. I finally earned the respect from others it took forever to get. I didn't know how to keep working after I achieved my goals.

It would be a few years, lots of personal reflection/growth, meditating and learning new ways to live and think before I found new motivations after I realized my old ones wouldn't work anymore. Additionally, I had to return to a beginner's mindset where I loved the game and endless possibilities and could think more creatively before I got more stuck in my ways.

To directly answer your questions, I have finally settled on my motivation as of last year. My primary goal is to help people. It really pulls me as a motivation. However, people don't listen to those who don't succeed so much, so I need to start winning lots of tournaments in order to help others. By putting fulfillment and a larger purpose over myself I think I can sustain motivation, especially if I approach the game itself with humility and realize there is much I can still learn from myself and others.

This end result isn't the same for everyone, but the process and the challenging of old patterns is true for everyone who can make this difficult jump.

For PP/Anyone, to go back to the "be specific as possible" thing, I remembered you mentioning "Condense intense studying into..." (i'm tired and can't remember exactly what the last part was but I think what I do remember is fine ). I thought about that a lot recently and it got me thinking about just having 3 or maybe 4 specific rules for each matchup. Also relating to the whole 'be specific as possible' thing. Right now I do think it can help, because say you have a rule, and it's to use dtilt against ice climbers. You focus on that rule, which is making you focus on how you want to space to have the dtilt connect, or not connect, and if something goes wrong, like "oops it hit their shield a bit too close and now I'm being hit" or in a different way like "well i've hit them with dtilt a bunch, now they're adapting by doing...." Or "How do I get the space I want without giving up stage control or being hit?" So you play off a small amount of rules, which on paper is used to not over-complicate an already complicated game, but in your head you're learning how those rules really work in all kinds of situations and stages, and you learn how to adapt by your own rules.

I think rules and condensing info is great, but first you have to get complicated before you can do that.

 

[Kopaka]

I think rules and condensing info is great, but first you have to get complicated before you can do that.

Yeah? Like...get complicated specific things like for example (saying these would be rules to follow) keeping peach in the air/keeping climbers out on the ground/ edgeguarding/everything. So you'd get really complicated and delve into the nitty and gritty of how those things work and THEN you could just think to yourself "Keep her in the air" and then do what looks to other people simple, but its simple because you've learned the complications of it, and then when people try to imitate you, it doesn't work because they don't know the nuance?

And to what Zorcey said about fear of not innovating. As long as you really really understand (I probably cant say I do for much of anything since I'm a wee baby) whats going on under the surface of the rules, then it looks like you're innovating?

I don't know lol. I just really really Reeeaaallly need to find what makes Marth tick as a character. I love playing him, but I know I've hardly scratched the surface of him as a character. It may sometimes be disheartening to see people pick up ice climbers or fox and do much better. Maybe it's a testament to the discipline Marth needs to really shine?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah? Like...get complicated specific things like for example (saying these would be rules to follow) keeping peach in the air/keeping climbers out on the ground/ edgeguarding/everything. So you'd get really complicated and delve into the nitty and gritty of how those things work and THEN you could just think to yourself "Keep her in the air" and then do what looks to other people simple, but its simple because you've learned the complications of it, and then when people try to imitate you, it doesn't work because they don't know the nuance?

And to what Zorcey said about fear of not innovating. As long as you really really understand (I probably cant say I do for much of anything since I'm a wee baby) whats going on under the surface of the rules, then it looks like you're innovating?

I don't know lol. I just really really Reeeaaallly need to find what makes Marth tick as a character. I love playing him, but I know I've hardly scratched the surface of him as a character.

Rules in themselves don't do anything. Rules are good when all of your complicated nuanced understanding comes together into simple form. When you have that you'll know you understand better and can move on. But rules are good to have for focus and also for inspiration to dissect the game and really know what they mean. I can say "less is more" all day and write 10K words about it, but none of that will do half as much good as someone who really grapples with the phrase and tries to seek out how it applies to the game through analysis and their own theorizing.

 

[Kopaka]

Rules in themselves don't do anything. Rules are good when all of your complicated nuanced understanding comes together into simple form. When you have that you'll know you understand better and can move on. But rules are good to have for focus and also for inspiration to dissect the game and really know what they mean. I can say "less is more" all day and write 10K words about it, but none of that will do half as much good as someone who really grapples with the phrase and tries to seek out how it applies to the game through analysis and their own theorizing.

So then...much (much much) analysis first, then rules after the fact? Are you getting at saying "dtilt the ice climbers" and following that almost like a robot won't do you much good...*without* having an understanding that I know is currently far beyond what I have? Hm, cause I was thinking get the rule first and the analysis leads after. But...yeah. The more I think of that the more I am starting to think maybe that's not the way. Get the nuance first..the complications first...hm.

EDIT: Ahhhhhh. that part about writing 10k words. Gonna think about that for awhile. Cause that's clicking, the whole "that wont do much good as someone who grapples with the phrase". HMmmmmm

EDIT 2: Gotta grapple with it. Cause "less is more" is an unknown to me because I really haven't SAT DOWN and wrestled and got tough with it. yeah.

 

[bts.mongoose]

PP, I'd like to hear your thoughts, as well as other people's thoughts on this quote from streetfighter player Daigo Umehara:

"By 'reading' an opponent (memorizing their habits, tells, and methods), you take your focus off of yourself and what you are doing. While knowing an opponent's habits can vastly improve one's odds in a match, to rely on this knowledge leads to very selective methods that will rarely work on multiple opponents. It also does not allow the player to grow. 'True strength is achieved when you can read your opponent, but defeat them without exploiting their weaknesses.'"
​

My interpretation of this is that it's Daigo saying that while you can have room for adaptation in your gameplan, you shouldn't make your gameplan fully built around habits you notice your opponent has. I think that it's correct, and brings up interesting ideas about player vs player and player vs character mentality.

Do you agree/disagree with this statement or my interpretation of it? To what extent can this thought process be applied to Melee, an admittedly different game from Street Fighter? What kind of balance should a Marth player ideally strike between PvP philosophy and PvC philosophy?

 

[eideeiit]

I think that quote is more about Daigo as a person and about what he thinks of playing and perhaps even living than it is about getting the best results or gameplay mindset. I used to follow SF a bit, even though it has fallen off as of late (and I'm bad), but from what I could tell for a quite long a while after SFV's release Daigo's play was colored by trying things out. Sacrificing what could get you the W right now, so that you can gain information about stuff, which, to you, is more valuable. Chasing perfection I guess. The only way to be the best for sure is by beating everyone else at what they do the best. Beat them by abusing their weaknesses and one day they'll fix that and get back at you, but beat them at their own game and there's nothing (very little) they can do.

I find that a very respectable way of approaching things actually, but an extremely hard one to pull off, as every day we use more and more of our resources (time) and some day it'll come to an end. What if you haven't reached what you were looking for by then? I guess this ties back to just enjoying the journey.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hm I seem to get asked about this passage a lot. I may have to do a video on it in time.

So this is part of what I actually tell people I work with about video analysis. There's a certain trap you can fall into with it. If you only get habits out of it, you miss the big picture and a chance for you to grow. You have to ask questions like "what does this decision mean for Fox as a character that they think it's good?" "What can you do against this option besides what was done?" And eventually "seeing many different people in this same situation what trends can I notice?" In other words, if you don't broaden your analysis you're only playing to beat the next guy and you should also be building your own knowledge base to apply to anyone you're against. Preparing for opponents vs building your own gameplan need to be in balance basically. It seems Daigo thinks that balance should skew toward building your own gameplan, and I'd agree with him. It feels a little like he downplays analysis but his overall impression I agree with as long as people understand the nuance behind what he says and don't just stop analyzing after reading this passage lol.