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Captain Falcon Match-Up (MU) Discussion

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Ree301

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I played a bit of the Diddy match up and had a hell of a time with the zoning to constant throw's > up airs. I found out that Falcon's jabs (hold A) beat peanut gun (even charged), bananas and basically all ground approaches he has. It just evens out projectiles and hits dash attack/ side B/ dash grabs. If peanut spam vs. jab became a war of attrition, throwing falcon kick cut through the peanuts too. But liberal spamming of jabs make Diddy mains have to space well and play a more vulnerable neutral game.
 

KeketheBasedCat

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Other logistical notes on the diddy mu: jab beats the first 1/3rd of monkeyflip. Assuming he throws out the attack form once he sees you're jabbing, the later 2/3rds of monkeyflip will trade with jab--obviously not a good trade unless he's recovering to the stage with monkeyflip.
Also, throwing out the knee is a surefire way to gimp his recovery. Even soft knee will send him diagonally downward and pretty much ruin his chances at getting back.
Duckhunt also seems to be a good counterpick for this stage, since the ducks can negate bananas if the bananas hit them (not often, but more often than any other stage haha), and it has high ceilings.
 

Trifroze

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Regarding Ness MU: Not sure if this has been noted but if you spam jab during PK fire, Ness basically can't grab you. This works with all characters who have fast jabs, but might need to be a fast faller as well. Use it if you know you can't SDI out of it.

E: I'll make a more elaborate post.

It's also ridiculously easy to gimp Ness with dair, toy knee and the hug. I'm starting to think this isn't such a disadvantageous MU after all, same with Rosa lately. Rapid jab has good reach and is pretty safe on Luma, and it sends it flying literally across the stage (I haven't seen any other move that isn't ridiculously strong send it that far). If Luma is throwing out hitboxes, your rapid jab activates even when you're too far away from Luma for the jabs to hit, and the finisher reaches far enough to hit even then. DA and Falcon Kick also work well near the ledge but can be punished, although often I'd still go for it. Rosa can be gimped and juggled fairly easily too.

Both Ness and Rosalina wreck Falcon offstage and juggle him the same he does them, but they sort of do that for every character. Meanwhile Falcon's recovery is a weakness in most MUs, so Ness and Rosalina are just capitalizing on something that is required to keep Falcon balanced. Gotta see more before making conclusions though.
 
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A couple things:

Be careful about holding out jab against Diddy. That's just asking for a shield dash.

Ness can gimp Falcon's up B with a fair (as in they trade and Falcon just kinda falls), and Ness is exceptional at forcing characters off stage with his throws and aerials.
 

BigLord

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Great notes here! Keep up the conversation, I'm loving it.

Another thing in favor of Falcon vs Ness: if you space and shield properly, Ness simply CAN'T use PK Fire, it's always unsafe because Falcon can easily dash-grab Ness from wherever he is on the stage. PK Fire has just too much endlag to use safely against a fast character (I'm guessing Sonic can do the same thing, and Little Mac).

This is obviously only true if you can react fast enough, though. In very laggy environments (For LaGlory) you won't be able to react in time and your dash-grab will be punished.
But then again, this is true for almost every Falcon follow-up, heh.
 

voltronbadA

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I am a Captain Falcon newcomer (trying to switch main's at the moment) one of my best friends is a sonic player that destroys me constantly, any tips? I read over the previous guides and I just feel like Sonic has little to no lag on all of his moves and am constantly getting punished or juggled.

Only other character that destroyed me in for glory was Bowser. I couldn't even touch him! Tips on the Bowser matchup as well would be much appreciated!
 

Knee Smasher

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I would like to know about other Captain Falcon players' opinions on the Meta Knight matchup. I find that a well-played Meta Knight is by far the hardest matchup for Captain Falcon - I honestly have no idea what to do there.
 

Jebus244

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I would like to know about other Captain Falcon players' opinions on the Meta Knight matchup. I find that a well-played Meta Knight is by far the hardest matchup for Captain Falcon - I honestly have no idea what to do there.
Maybe I haven't played a good meta knight, but I find him easy to punish with dash attacks, grabs, and jabs. Pikachu is by far my least favorite MU. I hate that little rat.
 

Silvalfo

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I think this is one of the most important threads here. Are there plans for compiling all links into quick, accessible information and organizing a discussion for each character?
 

rahsosprout

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I noticed there's no DDD discussion. played a really good one last night so i'll write down a few notable things.
I was losing maybe 2/3rds, but I started doing much better towards the end and in the future, I think I would do much better if I had a rematch based on my findings.

1. DDD's F-tilt: This is punishable on block with dash grab or dash attack.
2. DDD's N-air: This is pretty much ddd's only landing option, which is easy to shield grab, but you can also empty short hop + fast fall and the hitbox ends by the time you land, so free jabs or grabs.
3. DDD's F-smash: Surprisingly little cooldown. if they follow up with d-tilt, you are very likely to get hit unless you move in to punish immediately.
4. DDD's Jab: falcon kick spaced properly beats DDD holding jab (the second half of falcon kick as it gets weaker does not). In terms of speed, you should always beat DDD's jab, but if you get jabbed at low %, DI down and you can interrupt him in between jab 1 and jab 2. DDD can get jab, jab, grab, dthrow, n-air and depending on how he reads your DI, potentially a f-air. If you do get trapped, be sure to DI away, since the knockback is mostly straight up.
5. DDD's Inhale: This beats falcon kick and raptor boost. dash attack timing is really strict. sliding towards them and jabbing seems to be the easiest option.
6. DDD's Up-B: The super armor takes a while to come out, so you can either spike at the very beginning of the ascent or at the apex, but generally, it's not worth the risk.
7. DDD's B-throw: DI horizontally. Doesn't seem intuitive, but b-throw sends you straight up for some reason.
8. DDD's B-air: You really shouldn't be getting hit by this move since DDD relies heavily on baits to land this move, but damn is it strong.
9. Lastly, DDD's Side-B: If you see the DDD pull it out up close, just dash attack. At long range, b-airs and u-airs hit it back easily. Weak knee also works against it very well because of the long lasting hitbox and the fact that it does 3%.

Summary: I think this MU favors Falcon 6:4. do NOT take DDD to battlefield. The platforms make it hard to punish DDD. Both characters have the potential to deal a lot of damage to each other offstage so I find momentum to play a big factor in this matchup. Neutral seems pretty even. U-airs are super free against DDD. 2 U-airs even at low / mid % sends them pretty much nowhere so you can follow up with N-air or land quickly and jab.
 
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Wumbo105

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Are we moving on to the next matchup? I apologize if I'm barging in, I'm just surprised this one hasn't been brought up yet.

We gotta talk about Pikachu, because he is a BIG problem. I was just tearing thru yesterday's tourney til I ran into a somewhat decent Pika I could do literally nothing against. He is virtually impossible to grab, especially since even him whiffing most of his aerials/moves leaves him in a sort of flattened state on the ground and makes him so tiny.

His fair somehow outranges and outprioritizes our nair so that approach is gone, and all he really has to do is either Jolt or shieldgrab our dash attack approach.

It is still pretty early on, but I would venture to say the matchup is somewhere around 30:70 in favor of Pika. I just had no idea what to do against him.
 

Trifroze

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You can't play versus Pikachu like any normal MU. Grab is basically not an option, and even when you get one Pikachu is hard to combo because he's light, small and relatively floaty.

Instead, you have to use Falcon's high kill power and weight compared to Pikachu's low kill power and weight to your advantage and go for hard reads as if you were playing a faster Ganondorf. Even if you miss most of your reads, you're still very much able to kill Pikachu before he kills you. Bair is also still useful in this matchup, and dash attack can punish the things dash grab cannot. Here's an example from a tourney I played a couple weeks back (first match):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ibnX2-6Tq4

It's definitely an unfavorable MU though. I didn't have much experience on the MU myself so I'm trying to grab more than I should at first.
 
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BigLord

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I dare to say that we should use dair (hehe pun) more often against short characters, particularly ones that have "meh" grabs. Don't forget to try to land BEHIND your opponent, so he can't instantly shield grab you.

I've done this to some Kirbies and Pikachus in the past. Of course, you can't spam it otherwise you're going to get rekt, but it's an option to consider.
 

teluoborg

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Jab isn't that good of an option against Pika because most of the time he'll duck under the hitbox. I think the matchup is still manageable because of how Falcon moves, but it's clear that if you go the regular route and try to go for shield grabs and stuff then you'll lose to any semi decent Pika.

Dtilt might be our safest option when on the ground, but that needs more testing.
 

Wumbo105

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That's an interesting way of looking at it, @ Trifroze Trifroze . But hard reads are just that...some games you'll get a ton, some games you get zero, and it's all up to the opposing player. I'll definitely try that next time tho.
how is dtilt against pika? or just jabbing a lot?

havent played a good pika yet
Dtilt and jabs seem to be some of the very few tools that are good against Pika, but if they are close enough for those to hit then that's a mistake on their part honestly. Idk man
 

Silvalfo

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I dare to say that we should use dair (hehe pun) more often against short characters, particularly ones that have "meh" grabs. Don't forget to try to land BEHIND your opponent, so he can't instantly shield grab you.

I've done this to some Kirbies and Pikachus in the past. Of course, you can't spam it otherwise you're going to get rekt, but it's an option to consider.
Isn't a shielded dair an invite to getting utilted forever by these guys?

MUs against short characters have truly been my bane, but having this "like a faster ganondorf" mindset should work very well for me. I hope so, at least.
 

SwordsRbroken

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This isn't Melee, onstage Dair isn't as good of an option imo.

Also, does anyone here have MU experience vs Peach?
 

BigLord

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This isn't Melee, onstage Dair isn't as good of an option imo.
Eh, with the new bounce mechanic, sometimes it's worth the risk (dair to knee gives you such a great feeling).

The best way to land a dair is on the opponent's back, so you land behind him/her and he can't shield-grab you.

Sorry, got no experience with Peach whatsoever :(


I know you guys are busy discussing your electrical problem, but what are your thoughts on the Lucario MU?
First off, I giggled while reading "electrical problem".

Second, it's a fun MU. Because in theory, Lucario shouldn't be much of a problem, since he is a high-risk/high-reward character, and we have so many KO moves, Lucario has to play a very careful game when he reaches high percents, otherwise he gets bair'd to infinity. Just don't get grabbed by his sideB, it WILL kill you.

I haven't encountered good Lucarios so far, though, so take this with a grain of salt.
 

Silvalfo

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Lucario's fair can pretty much exploit our lack of horizontal reach in the air (I've noticed that this is actually one of our greatest problems in many matchups), but well-timed bairs are still good.
There's the classic "you can kill Lucario early, his aura+rage won't be that much of a problem", but keep in mind that most of Falcon's KO moves require a lot of commitment, don't just throw them around expecting easy 70% kills.
Also we get uptilted a lot. But we exploit his relative floatiness and weird dair a LOT with uair.

Other than that basic stuff I know very little about Lucario's MU, I hope someone can enlighten you better with this one.
 

Trifroze

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Lucario feels fairly even to me, and I fight dedicated Lucario mains pretty consistently. Both characters have to commit for their kills, Lucario even more so, and while he has a projectile that on paper forces Falcon to approach and low lag aerials that make it fairly difficult, Falcon does have the speed to do that efficiently enough. Like in any MU, you should pressure Lucario with feint approaches either by canceling dashes with a shield, rolls or extended dash dancing. Throw in some nairs, uairs and bairs here and there, but avoid actually approaching as much as you can. There isn't really much Lucario can do from a distance until he hits higher percentages. Dash attack, shorthop, jab and generally everything is an answer to aura spheres until then. Mid range is where Falcon wants to be, it's close enough for Lucario to be unable to react to a dashgrab and too far for him to do anything until his side b lasers get more range with aura.

Once he gets the aura going he can sort of gain the upper hand in neutral with his lasers and aura spheres. When Lucario is charging an aura sphere, more often than not they'll try to pressure you with it rather than instantly release it. If so, just dashgrab them. If they keep shooting it, dash in, shield and punish. It's a 50:50 situation that you shouldn't be respecting too much, the aura sphere won't realistically KO you. Watch out for Lucario's empty jump command grab, and avoid shielding in close range because of it. It commonly kills even Falcon at 50-80%.

When you're getting up from the ledge, Lucario can charge his aura sphere to eliminate all of Falcon's getup options. Ledge attack, regular getup and jump all result in Falcon getting stuck in the aura and rolling onto the stage will let him shoot the aura sphere at you on reaction. If you drop off and uair him, he can shield it and then punish your next ledgegrab with aura sphere. Hence, you should drop off the ledge, uair him and immediately up b. If he gets hit by uair, you get back onto the stage for free. If he shields, he will either get grabbed by the up b or evade it giving you time to grab the ledge again and quickly get back onto the stage. Sometimes you can not uair at all, instead just jump off and bait him to shield, then either up b or just regrab the ledge and jump back onto the stage etc. Mix it up creatively based on Lucario's habits and it's not a huge problem.

Now when you do get the advantage, stay in on Lucario as much as you can and don't give him the time to breathe. This is how you should ideally play the whole MU; mid-range pressure, minimal shielding and constant harassment. This minimizes Lucario's chances to play with aura sphere or command grab you, hence gaining advantage. Lucario's close-range options are fairly limited and he can't keep up with Falcon's speed. When he's offstage, force him to use his up b and try to intercept it with dair, and as time passes, this will become easier and easier. You'll need Lucario to be at around 40-50% for it to KO him because of the length of his up b, and Lucario can adjust his trajectory to avoid this but in most situations it will result in him experiencing coffee break level landing lag which you can punish with at least Raptor Boost, even if you went for a dair and missed.

Lucario's fair can pretty much exploit our lack of horizontal reach in the air (I've noticed that this is actually one of our greatest problems in many matchups), but well-timed bairs are still good.
Yeah, Falcon uses his hand for his back air and only half of his leg for his fair. Uair is pretty good though, it covers like 180 degrees around Falcon, starting slightly below the mid-horizontal level in front of him and ending somewhere slightly before the mid-horizontal level behind him. You can actually use it to escape some combos.
 

ChallengerDoob

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I have been having trouble with a particular :4rob: so this might be very helpful! might have to try
 

SwordsRbroken

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Anybody got additional tips for playing against Mario besides those listed in the OP? Kindergarten combo into cape/fludd edgeguards and fireball spam make me feel helpless. Is this matchup just flat-out bad for Falcon?
 

BigLord

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Any suggestions on Falcon vs Ganondorf?

I find it weird I have an easier time with the Ganondorf vs Falcon MU, rather than the other way around :p
If you're having a bad time against Ganondorf, you're probably being waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too agressive. Tone it down a little, let the Dark Lord approach and react accordingly.

Mario's got the tools to wreck Falcon, no doubt about it @ SwordsRbroken SwordsRbroken . What I can tell you is just to play smart and patient. Dash&shield works great vs fireballs, too.
 

CyberHyperPhoenix

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If you're having a bad time against Ganondorf, you're probably being waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too agressive. Tone it down a little, let the Dark Lord approach and react accordingly.

Mario's got the tools to wreck Falcon, no doubt about it @ SwordsRbroken SwordsRbroken . What I can tell you is just to play smart and patient. Dash&shield works great vs fireballs, too.
I'm not really aggressive with Falcon, its just that I find it the Ganon vs Falcon MU easier than Falcon vs Ganon....But I'll take your points and use them anyway :p
 

Trifroze

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Falcon has better options against Ganondorf than Ganondorf does against Falcon in every situation except edgeguarding the other player. Use your speed to run in and out to bait him into doing things and punish them. Nairs are a big friend of yours since Ganondorf is tall and heavy, if you connect with one you can connect with up to three more at low percents, escort them offstage, and dair their predictable recovery. Falling shorthop uairs also work really well and you can combo them into knee KOs at 50-80%. Rising uair, aka immediate uair after shorthopping, also hits Ganondorf because he's tall and can be comboed into several more depending on his percent. It's relatively safe to spam nairs and uairs and fish for opportunities with them because Ganondorf's OoS options are very limited. If you think he can punish you after you hit his shield with an aerial, cover yourself with jab every time.

However you have to avoid taking risks in this MU. Ganondorf is the most lethal punisher and edgeguarder in the game, and Falcon has a predictable recovery with subpar horizontal reach. Don't throw out smashes or specials and avoid overusing dash attack and dash grab, unless you're punishing Ganondorf, instead focus on your quick and safe moves which will win the MU for you just fine. Ganondorf may be the most lethal punisher in the game but Falcon is probably the best one with his speed and power combined with his dash grab, Raptor Boost, knee and the amazing follow-ups he gets in advantage, and Ganondorf is easy to punish.
 

Maraphy

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Hey, Falcon players! Just thought you would be interested to know that we just started discussion on the :4falcon: vs :4palutena: matchup over on the Palutena board. We would love to have players who are experienced in the matchup come join us in discussion (and perhaps even have some friendlies for testing!) in order to thoroughly dissect these two. Plus, it looks like you guys haven't covered this matchup yet, so it would bolster your own topic with some potentially useful data! (click the pic to go to the topic!):


 
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Igneel

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Hey I Think the ness match-up is 60-40 Ness What do you Think? Because it's very hard to me (I'm Falcon)
 

Ree301

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Hey, Falcon players! Just thought you would be interested to know that we just started discussion on the :4falcon: vs :4palutena: matchup over on the Palutena board. We would love to have players who are experienced in the matchup come join us in discussion (and perhaps even have some friendlies for testing!) in order to thoroughly dissect these two. Plus, it looks like you guys haven't covered this matchup yet, so it would bolster your own topic with some potentially useful data! (click the pic to go to the topic!):


Yeah I wanna be a part of this, PM me please! If connection holds up, this could be fun.

Off the cuff though, Palutena's roll annoys me, as well as her teleport to the ground to avoid juggles or her air dodges. You can't react to them because you can't see them -.- The up B to ledge doesn't seem so awful since ledgesnap tech surfaced but Falcon's answer to that isn't particularly punishing. I look forward to hearing from you!
 

Ree301

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Another thing to add about the Ness MU, he can up B twice if the first one launches him into a wall. It has something to do with the angle he hits, AND it's left/ right side specific. If he looks like he screwed up, don't sleep on it. Go make sure he can't back throw anyone ever again, that little monster.

Also, maybe it's player specific but I'm finding Ness loves to wait and use his second jump paired with his F-air almost every time he recovers to challenge Falcon from on stage. U-tilt I've found to be unreliable, but the jump arc is very predictable. Bait this bad habit and come down with the knee. He won't make it back and he'll stop burning his 2nd jump so recklessly.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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I'll continue this later because I'm in school, but let's talk a little bit about the Kirby Matcup(if you don't mind)
When I have time I will list and explain about it
 

2MuchDog

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Hey there Captains, I've a few questions. I main toon link, so i would like to know how is this matchup for you guys, how would I defeat a aggressive captain player, and last of all whats your worst matchup personally?
 

Kranks

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Any suggestions on Falcon vs Ganondorf?

I find it weird I have an easier time with the Ganondorf vs Falcon MU, rather than the other way around :p
He has horrible lag on everything, just punish accordingly.

I would say that Falcon's worst MUs are small characters in general. Pikachu, Jigglypuff and Kirby all evade lots of you moves and can easily edge guard your one dimensional recovery. Good Links, Robs and DHD (he cant kill you without lots of commitment though) can space you into oblivion, sometime I even end ledge stalling just so they will quit projectile spamming.

In the end a secondary is pretty much necessary is you want to main Falcon in a competitive sense, some MUs are just too much of a deficit to be worthwhile.
 
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