Canonical Video Game Tier List: Updated Omega Ridley vs. Perfect Chaos

[CaptainFalcon9000]

Blunt force is useless as only the brain inside Perfect Chaos can be hurt. Piercing weapons are probably more useful as they will maintain a higher speed while passing through the liquid.





No. The ability to destroy skyscrapers came up in the game too though as IIRC you fought him in Central Square (or whatever it was called) and he'd covered practically the whole city and destroyed large chunks of it.



Not exactly. "The Creators" challenged Captain Falcon to a race within his mind in which they took on his form. This shows only his willpower and/or racing ability, not his combat strength.

"creators of all existence" A.K.A the developers, CAPTAIN FALCON MUST BE TIED HIGH TIER WITH SONIC OR AT LEAST BE UNDER HIM IN THE SAME SECTION OF THE TIER LIST AS A HIGH ONE

 

[ryuu seika]

They were known simply as "The Creators" but their name does not change the fact that their challange was not one of strength.

 

[Rychu]

Ridley IMO wins due to the fact he's fast, strong, and has the ability to fly, making Chaos' water/plasma null. He could easily attack his brain( his only weak spot).

 

[JuxtaposeX]

 

[Crystanium]

As you said Perfect Chaos' best bet would be in his large beam attack, it works as an anti air. The long range mini beams are probably not effective enough, especially against this Ridley's armor, and the tentacles have limited range best used for defense.

How effective are the plasma and bombs? If they could dissolve the body it would be a major nuisance, and coupled with Ridley's speed Chaos could have a major disadvantage.

I was talking to my friend today. He's a Sonic fan, so I asked him what he thought and what the battle against Perfect Chaos was like. He told me that the beam attack has a slow start-up, but until I can see what this looks like for myself on my own laptop, I won't know. I disregarded the idea that Omega Ridley is only vulnerable to the Nova Beam, since this would be a no-limits fallacy. So, if the large beam hits, it could be a OHKO.

As for the plasma attack, well, I cannot say for certain as to how effective it is. I only bring up plasma, and even a flame should work, because water turns into steam around 212 °F. This could be effective to turn the water surrounding Perfect Chaos' brain into steam. It would have to be a constant attack, however, which he demonstrated in-game. This, with the meson bombs used in conjunction could get a hit on the brain. In Metroid Prime, the meson bombs were able to break apart rock, and we know a brain isn't as durable as rock.

oooo, so were talking about videogames only....CAPTAIN FALCON DEFEATED "THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING" IN F ZERO GX, if you don´t believe it search the cutscenes of the history mode of the game OR play the gamem and my point about how snake (one of the best videogame heroes ever) recognized captain falcon and is a fan of him stand stills.

We are only talking about video games if other media is not canon. For example, we would use not just the games of the Halo series, but also the books, since they are canon.

My brother owns F-Zero GX. I have played it. Captain Falcon defeated the Creators in a race. It doesn't matter if Snake is a fan. That is only in the SSB Universe. It does not pertain to what is actual F-Zero canon.

As I also said before, we aren't talking about Captain Falcon right now.

Blunt force is useless as only the brain inside Perfect Chaos can be hurt. Piercing weapons are probably more useful as they will maintain a higher speed while passing through the liquid.

I avoided piercing weapons, such as bullets because when a bullet hits water, it slows down and isn't as effective. It was something demonstrated on Mythbusters.

"creators of all existence" A.K.A the developers, CAPTAIN FALCON MUST BE TIED HIGH TIER WITH SONIC OR AT LEAST BE UNDER HIM IN THE SAME SECTION OF THE TIER LIST AS A HIGH ONE

The tier list doesn't work that way. It works by the feats a character has done, the strength, speed, durabillity, and all that other stuff are also factors. If Captain Falcon can outrace the Creators of the F-Zero Universe, but he cannot defeat characters like Ganondorf, Sonic, Samus, Ike, or a lot of the characters on the list, he won't be up as high.

Defeating a god or creator doesn't prove anything, especially if another character has defeated a god in their respective universe. This isn't to undermine Captain Falcon. The point is, it will be a bit difficult for Falcon to be higher up on the tier list. He is a human being, and the only thing we know about him besides being a bounty hunter is that he is a racer.

But, as noted before, we aren't talking about Captain Falcon right now. If you would like to suggest him next to battle someone else, you are more than welcome to tell me the next post you leave for us to read.

 

[Soniccuz]

I was talking to my friend today. He's a Sonic fan, so I asked him what he thought and what the battle against Perfect Chaos was like. He told me that the beam attack has a slow start-up, but until I can see what this looks like for myself on my own laptop, I won't know. I disregarded the idea that Omega Ridley is only vulnerable to the Nova Beam, since this would be a no-limits fallacy. So, if the large beam hits, it could be a OHKO. Ridely c

As for the plasma attack, well, I cannot say for certain as to how effective it is. I only bring up plasma, and even a flame should work, because water turns into steam around 212 °F. This could be effective to turn the water surrounding Perfect Chaos' brain into steam. It would have to be a constant attack, however, which he demonstrated in-game. This, with the meson bombs used in conjunction could get a hit on the brain. In Metroid Prime, the meson bombs were able to break apart rock, and we know a brain isn't as durable as rock.

Yeah, it's already been mentioned chaos moves like a dinosaur when attacking. Really all his moves, what little there are, slow to come out. I'm going to have to agree with Getocoolaid, and concede that Ridley's just too fast and unaffected by the landscape to loose this match-up. I can picture him dodging Perfect Chaos' long ranged attack, approaching high enough to avoid the tentacles and getting in before there's time to let loose the beam attack. Even though you're allowing Ridley to be more vulnerable Chaos only other viable anti-air move is too slow a projectile. It also seems you've hit upon an affective strategy with Ridley's aerial moves. Unless the execution of these moves happen to slow him down a bit, personally just ramming into the brain would be sufficient enough.

I avoided piercing weapons, such as bullets because when a bullet hits water, it slows down and isn't as effective. It was something demonstrated on Mythbusters.

As demonstrated by a police squad at the very start of the game. That said you can probably find more effective piercing weapons.

No. The ability to destroy skyscrapers came up in the game too though as IIRC you fought him in Central Square (or whatever it was called) and he'd covered practically the whole city and destroyed large chunks of it.

Well yes he did wreck the city but, that was the force of the flood. It burst out of ever manhole, fountain, and facet there was. However, I was trying to judge physical strength and he never used brute force to topple any of them.

 

[bleyva]

so like, is there any specific rules regarding what accessories/abilities characters get to use?

-Does Samus retain her destroy-all Screw Attack?
-Can Fox use his Arwing?
-Can Link run and camp with light arrows all day?
-Can Mario destroy anything simply by jumping on its head?

 

[Alopex]

If we're talking all games ever, as suggested in the original post, then Amaterasu.

Or Mewtwo. Why do people always ignore psychic powers like they're weak? Did no one here ever read X-Men, or at the very least watch Heroes (season 1), or at the very leasTEST watch the Pokemon movie?

Samus, Ike, and Ganon would all just be held in stasis forever by Mewtwo.

Amateru can do things even when in stasis thanks to the celestial brush.
And she's a goddess.
Who defeated another "king of evil", so Dorf can suck it.
Ammy can dance around Ike all day since she can control time, and just let him die of exhaustion and starvation, since she controls nature. He's not immune to a failing human body. Fail.
A similar thing could be done with Samus, though I don't think it would even be needed.

Amaterasu. Always.

Everyone go play Okami now. PS2 version for max awesome.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

King D3 doesn't even have to fight, he'll send his endless armies of 8 inch tall Waddle Dee's after everyone

 

[Crystanium]

I apologize for a late response. As I am certain many of you know, SWF was down, but I don't know for how long. I didn't attend SWF yesterday, since that day is usually busy. Anyway, to answer your questions...

Yeah, it's already been mentioned chaos moves like a dinosaur when attacking. Really all his moves, what little there are, slow to come out. I'm going to have to agree with Getocoolaid, and concede that Ridley's just too fast and unaffected by the landscape to loose this match-up. I can picture him dodging Perfect Chaos' long ranged attack, approaching high enough to avoid the tentacles and getting in before there's time to let loose the beam attack. Even though you're allowing Ridley to be more vulnerable Chaos only other viable anti-air move is too slow a projectile. It also seems you've hit upon an affective strategy with Ridley's aerial moves. Unless the execution of these moves happen to slow him down a bit, personally just ramming into the brain would be sufficient enough.

So, Omega Ridley for the win against Perfect Chaos?

so like, is there any specific rules regarding what accessories/abilities characters get to use?

Yes. The characters are going to be based off of the strongest incarnation. As I noted in the first page, composite characters, i.e., characters with all of the items/upgrades throughout the series is not going to be permitted here, since it would be unfair for some characters who aren't as versatile or equipped with enough items/upgrades.

The current incarnation is also not being used, unless the strongest incarnation is the current incarnation. An example would be Samus from Metroid Fusion. That is her most current incarnation, chronologically speaking from the Metroid Universe. However, if say Link from Twilight Princess was the current incarnation based on the timeline, we would not use him, since he isn't the strongest incarnation.

-Does Samus retain her destroy-all Screw Attack?

Samus will retain her Screw Attack, as it is the most iconic upgrade throughout the Metroid series. The only game in which it was not present was Metroid Prime. Since MF seems to be the strongest incarnation of Samus, she will have the Screw Attack. But, I digress. The Screw Attack will have to be carefully examined when we speak of it, though.

-Can Fox use his Arwing?

If his strongest incarnation involves this, yes.

-Can Link run and camp with light arrows all day?

If he has enough arrows and Chataeu Milk.

-Can Mario destroy anything simply by jumping on its head?

Again, we'll have to be cautious on how we will taking Mario's jumping. For example, he can step on Goombas and easily crush them with his own weight, but some other characters in the battle against Mario may be more durable than that.

If we're talking all games ever, as suggested in the original post, then Amaterasu.

I have heard of Amaterasu, but I don't know anything about her.

Or Mewtwo. Why do people always ignore psychic powers like they're weak? Did no one here ever read X-Men, or at the very least watch Heroes (season 1), or at the very leasTEST watch the Pokemon movie?

I have. But to be honest, J'onn J'onzz over Professor X any day.

Samus, Ike, and Ganon would all just be held in stasis forever by Mewtwo.

That is questionable, but if you would like to see one of these characters battle Mewtwo, you can suggest it.

And she's a goddess.

Careful there. Although Amaterasu is a goddess, rank doesn't equate above all else in terms of characters from other universes. Feats and versatility are what matters.

So, right now, I see someone wants Captain Falcon in the battle. I see Amaterasu being promoted in the battle by Alopex. Again, Alopex, if you want to have Amaterasu or Mewtwo fight one of the three that you mentioned, just tell me.

 

[REL38]

I don't visit General for months and another canon tier list comes up

I'd suggest keeping Smash only characters cuz you'll have Naruto, Master Chief and ect. out the wahzoo

Then again, I just skimmed the OP so idunno exactly what's up this time around

 

[Soniccuz]

So, Omega Ridley for the win against Perfect Chaos?

Yes, lol.

I'd like to see where Amaterasu stands as well. Don't know enough to defend her but, I know she's skilled, and would make for an interesting debate. I'm going to predict mid-high tier.

 

[WiiWouldLikeTwoPlay]

Nice to see that this was once more resurrected. I wonder how long it will take before this devolves into lunacy once more…

But I digress. I do have some relevant comments to make…

—The OP states that only the 'most powerful incarnation' can be used. How exactly is this to be determined? And how exactly do you separate 'incarnations'?
Also, there are a number of characters whose abilities are ambiguous in the interconnectivity from game to game, but not necessarily contradictory. Take for example, Princess Peach of Super Mario RPG and Princess Peach of Bowser's Inside Story. In SMRPG she has immense magic/psychic power of ambiguous origin with a collection of abilities, to the point where she can literally resurrect the dead (and is also quite good at killing, via psychic explosions). In Bowser's Inside Story, she demonstrates some form of psychokinesis, literally lifting Bowser off the ground and flinging him through a wall — the momentum carries him for what would likely be that universe's equivalent of miles. How about the sports games, where she can seal people in photographs (Strikers Charged), break down objects and reform them (Mario Superstar Baseball/Super Mario Sluggers [sorry, I don't remember which one that is in]), paralysis males via infatuation (Super Mario Sluggers), is still psychokinetic via her heart-energy (Mario Power Tennis), and so on so forth?
Even look at her very first appearance, Super Mario. Bros. She was shown to be immune to dark magic (or at least resistant to an extremely high degree), and also capable of undoing it. In a number of games (Superstar Saga, The Thousand Year Door, and Paper Mario come to mind) she has some sort of 'purity' to her that is apparently a vital part of the universe (in Super Paper Mario it is shown that should she, a 'pure maiden' enter marriage with someone evil, the entire multiverse literally begins collapsing). Back to Super Paper Mario, how about her literally unbreakable parasol? And how about the original Paper Mario, where not even the Star Spirits (who are currently competing with Rosalina over which of them are more likely the deities of the Mushroom World) can break the defense Bowser made with his hijacked omnipotence, and yet she (via a remarkably ambiguous scene) does?
None of these abilities contradict each other. So does she have them all? Is each game a different incarnation? These sorts of 'between the lines' exceptions need to be accounted for.

—On the same note as above, how about Link? 'Link' seems not to be a single person, but rather an immortal soul who eternally reincarnates in whenever a disaster is to occur. And how about that whole confusing mess with his timeline? There is a divergence of his own continuity, so how does that work?

—And how about competing divinities? The goddess Yune gave Ike an immunity to all form of harm, only surpassable by her counterpart Ashera. She also gave his weapons a holy blessing allowing them to pierce divine defense. So what would happen if Ike hit Ganondorf with Ragnell, him being granted the power to pierce divine defenses by Yune and Ganondorf having the divine defense of the Hyrulian goddess Din (via the Triforce of Power)?
And what about Bowser, who in Paper Mario wields the Star Rod, a sacred item with the power to grant any wish made by its master? Is it 'divine'? Who knows, it is hard enough to tell if the Mario Universe even has gods, given that the Star Spirits seem to actually 'rule' the Mushroom World while Rosalina opts to serve as its guardian. But it is almost certainly omnipotent, only failing Bowser when the seven Star Spirits (its creators and masters) and Peach (who as aforementioned has some extremely ambiguous cosmic role, or something) combine their powers — and even then, they can only 'disable' the defense for a short while, he can still use it to attack and heal himself. And furthermore, the characters even point out that Bowser could have taken over the entire universe the moment he had his hands on it, if he had been the least bit smart or efficient in its use.
And what about Mario himself, who by 'wishing' (the Marioverse equivalent to 'praying') can literally summon the Star Spirits, who may very well be his universe's gods(/goddesses)? What would happen if he used the Star Beam on Ike, the Star Beam being a massive column of the Star Spirits' power that can 'override' omnipotence (or at least the omnipotence of the Star Rod)?
And look at it another way. What would happen if Mario actually died in one of these fights? In Super Paper Mario, he actually was sent to the afterlife — and the ruler of the afterlife, Queen Jaydes, sent him back. Couldn't this be done ad infinitum? And even more so, later on in the game, Mario, Peach, Bowser, and Luigi, can all come and go from both possible afterlives as they please. Can any of them even 'die' if they just return to the world of the living whenever they want?
And what about someone with Rosalina, who quite clearly has powers on par with a god despite is not actually ever stated to be 'divine'? She is evidently ageless, having lived for hundreds of years, and also immortal in the sense of being truly un-killable — she is totally unaffected by the universe literally collapsing with her in it, and even more shockingly, unfazed by it entirely; and moreso, she even seems to actively guide its recreation without showing any effort all.

—Even discounting the issues of divinity, what about other interactions between characters for which there is no precedent? Can Samus' Power Armor, which is scientifically-based, defend against Zelda's magic or Ness/Lucas' psychic powers? It is indeed science-fiction science, but science nonetheless, so how does it work against the decidedly non-scientific powers of others? What would happen if Kirby inhaled another character? In his actual games, this instantly defeats/kills any single enemy? And what would happen if Pikachu is cut by Meta Knight's sword? Do Pokémon even bleed? And what would happen if Wario pointed his giant magnet against Link? Is the Master Sword magnetic?

—How about death mechanics? As aforementioned, Mario/Luigi/Bowser/Peach can all freely leave their series' afterlife whenever they want; the only reason reason this doesn't make it impossible to lose the game is because even those dimensions are threatened by the multiverse collapsing as well. And what about extra lives? Extra lives are brought up in conversation in Super Paper Mario — if I recall correctly, two of the residents of said afterlife are discussing having run out of them, and having gotten a 'game over', which is the term that is used to refer to death… 'Life' is used interchangeably with 'game', and 'game over' refers to being sent to the Underwhere/Overthere, the two possible afterlives of the Mario Multiverse. And in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, the Toads actually do give you extra lives as thanks for saving them. And in Super Mario Galaxy, Peach sends 1-Up Mushrooms to Mario to help him out, and Super Mario Galaxy 2, so does Rosalina. And hell, when Queen Jaydes is returning Mario to life, she even says "Game Over" and then "Continue". With all of that, can extra lives really be considered a 'game mechanic'? They are noted by the plot/story multiple times in multiple games.
And what about the health mechanics for Kirby or Meta Knight? Neither of them have ever been shown to have any sort of actual biology, and in a number of games Kirby's 'game over' only shows him having fallen asleep — presumably this allows the enemy to complete their plans while he is unconscious, thus a 'bad ending', but is there any way for him to actually die? And look at Kirby's Epic Yarn, where it is literally impossible to harm him — any hit or 'damage' only knocks him away and makes him drop money.
And what can be said about Bowser? What sort of biology does he have? In Super Mario Galaxy, he is literally thrown through the surface of a sun and is shown a few seconds later to be totally fine. He's in exhausted, yes, but he isn't actually harmed in any way. And looking again at the Mario characters (apologies if you see my focus on them as favoritism or bias; I don't actually mean it that way, they're just the characters that are easiest to make examples out of, due partly to their great number of appearances; there's a lot to draw from), can Mario, Peach, Bowser or Luigi be killed by anything at all? The four of them having lived through the universe's collapse twice — in Super Mario Galaxy that can be explained via Rosalina, but in Super Paper Mario, there's nothing at all to protect them — the entire dimension of Sammer's Kingdom is literally annihilated, with them in it. Everyone and everything else is totally destroyed, except Mario, Bowser, and Peach, who each survive unharmed; the destruction of the universe only knocks them unconscious, and it wasn't like they escaped, either. They woke up in the nonexistence remains, a white plane of total nothingness.
And going back to Pokémon, what sort of biology can we apply to them? This same trouble comes up with all non-human characters, we know very little about their actual biology. Both Kirby and the Pokémon seem to be biologically indestructible, their 'health' measured only by their stamina. The only exception I can recall to this is in Gold/Silver/Crystal/HeartGold/SoulSilver, where Team Rocket is able to cut off the tails of Slowpoke — and even then, they regenerate in less than an hour.
And how strong even are Pokémon against non-Pokémon? In Gold/Silver/Crystal/HeartGold/SoulSilver, Lance has his Dragonite use Hyper Beam on regular human being (a member of Team Rocket) — and he isn't injured at all, just knocked into a wall.

I've ranted for long enough on that part now, so hopefully I've made my point of how little we can actually guess about how these characters would actually match up.

Having spent a lot more time than I intended to originally, I'll try and make the rest much quicker:
—How do items work? Snake, a normal human, would naturally not be able to carry around that ridiculous arsenal of his without the game mechanics. But what about characters who actually have nonsensical/magical worlds and/or means to carry so much? Say, for example, Link.
—How do we compare character sizes? Kirby is, supposedly, 8 inches tall, and Olimar is about the size of quarter. We don't actually have any sort of scale, however, for a great many other characters.
—What sort of equipment can be 'brought'? If Captain Falcon can enter a match in his Blue Falcon, can't Samus bring her ship? And couldn't Meta Knight bring the Halberd? And what about robotic minions/weapons, like Meta Knight's Heavy Lobster?
—And what about the armies, like those of Bowser, King Dedede, and Ganondorf? Isn't having a military force a type of power? Or what about Marth or Ike? Even Peach and Zelda have command of a military force.
—What about this: Do the characters actually have to act true to their personalities? Luigi, for example, is a total coward who goes into total psychological shutdown when scared and alone — he only actually does anything in spite of his fear when he has assistance. In a fight against someone like Samus, he might just flat out surrender. Or how about Pikachu? Pokémon without command are ridiculously incompetent fighters.

Mm, I'll end off here, having spent a great deal of time. Hopefully this has provided some food for thought.

 

[Crystanium]

—The OP states that only the 'most powerful incarnation' can be used. How exactly is this to be determined? And how exactly do you separate 'incarnations'?

The word "incarnation" refers to the character in a specific game. Samus is the selfsame character throughout the series, but each game is separate. A separate game is equal to a specific incarnation. Metroid II: Return of Samus leads toward Super Metroid. Although there isn't a gap in the timeline, this does not mean that the items Samus acquired in RoS will be combined with SM. Not that this matters, of course, since most of RoS items were transitioned over to SM anyway. The idea of incarnations is no different than using a current incarnation.

In order to determine who is the more powerful incarnation, however, you would need to observe the overall aspect of the character. Feats from previous games would be permitted, and if say the character is high up on speed, durability, and firepower, but not strength, and there is no other incarnation that surpasses the speed, durability, or firepower aspect, you're better off using the incarnation with the best speed, durability, and firepower, since there are three strong points over one.

Also, there are a number of characters whose abilities are ambiguous in the interconnectivity from game to game, but not necessarily contradictory. Take for example, Princess Peach of Super Mario RPG and Princess Peach of Bowser's Inside Story. In SMRPG she has immense magic/psychic power of ambiguous origin with a collection of abilities, to the point where she can literally resurrect the dead (and is also quite good at killing, via psychic explosions). In Bowser's Inside Story, she demonstrates some form of psychokinesis, literally lifting Bowser off the ground and flinging him through a wall — the momentum carries him for what would likely be that universe's equivalent of miles.

Please see the OP for the specifics on inherent abilities and acquired abilities. That should answer your question. An inherent ability, for example, is Samus being capable of using SenseMove, even though she has never demonstrated this in any of the Metroid games, save the Prime series where it was demonstrated in cut-scenes, and MOM. Since Samus is the selfsame character, if we were to use the Metroid: Zero Mission incarnation, Samus would be permitted Concentration, Crystal Flash, SenseMove, Overblast, Lethal Strike, and the Special Beam Charge Combos that were featured in SM.

The acquired abilities, however, would be different. This would mean that Samus does not have the Grapple Voltage, Phazon Missiles, or whatever of the sort. And of course, there are other problems. If we were to assume that the MP incarnation of Samus was the strongest, we wouldn't allow her the Phazon Beam, since she would require an outside source, Metroid Prime, to give her the ammunition.

How about the sports games, where she can seal people in photographs (Strikers Charged), break down objects and reform them (Mario Superstar Baseball/Super Mario Sluggers [sorry, I don't remember which one that is in]), paralysis males via infatuation (Super Mario Sluggers), is still psychokinetic via her heart-energy (Mario Power Tennis), and so on so forth?

I am looking for canon. These games aren't really any different from a game like Super Smash Bros. or Marvel vs. Capcom. Sure, Amaterasu shows off her abilities in MvC that she demonstrates in Okami, but it doesn't mean it's canon. It simply means that the elements of the character are carried over into a game like Super Mario Sluggers. In other words, canon takes precedence over any other source, unless the source can be verified as canon. And no, just because it's from Nintendo, doesn't mean it's a part of canon.

Back to Super Paper Mario, how about her literally unbreakable parasol?

Unbreakability is an impossibility, both in reality and logically. Peach may demonstrate an indestructible parasol, but then if I began to ask you if it has ever been hit by a plasma weapon, or supercool plasma, only to be shattered by a concussive blast, or a multiterawatt burst of electricity, or ever been tossed into a black hole, only to retain its form, the the idea of it being unbreakable becomes questionable. Is it defined as being unbreakable? Is it just a game mechanic? There is no room for a no-limits fallacy. If an object has never demonstrated the ability to withstand something, then it's going to be assumed that the object cannot withstand it.

And how about the original Paper Mario, where not even the Star Spirits (who are currently competing with Rosalina over which of them are more likely the deities of the Mushroom World) can break the defense Bowser made with his hijacked omnipotence, and yet she (via a remarkably ambiguous scene) does?

You would have to explain the situation. I don't have any context here.

None of these abilities contradict each other. So does she have them all? Is each game a different incarnation? These sorts of 'between the lines' exceptions need to be accounted for.

I can't say. How did she acquire them? Are they from an outside source that is sentient (acquired ability/outside help)? Does she naturally learn them (inhereted ability)?

—On the same note as above, how about Link? 'Link' seems not to be a single person, but rather an immortal soul who eternally reincarnates in whenever a disaster is to occur. And how about that whole confusing mess with his timeline? There is a divergence of his own continuity, so how does that work?

Well, I'm not worried about timelines. To be honest, I think Link's strongest incarnation is from The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. His only problem is that a majority of his more useful abilities consume magic. Link is basically set.

—And how about competing divinities? The goddess Yune gave Ike an immunity to all form of harm, only surpassable by her counterpart Ashera. She also gave his weapons a holy blessing allowing them to pierce divine defense. So what would happen if Ike hit Ganondorf with Ragnell, him being granted the power to pierce divine defenses by Yune and Ganondorf having the divine defense of the Hyrulian goddess Din (via the Triforce of Power)?

I honestly never cared about gods or goddesses when it came to any discussion outside of video games, because they are only powerful in their respective universe. It's like being the CEO of a car company. Let's assume I own Toyota and you own Chevrolet. I have complete control over my company (universe), and you have complete control over your own. I am powerless in yours, and you are powerless in mine.

In order to even have any control over the other company, you would need to have been the creator of that company as well. The One Above All from Marvel may have complete control over his multiverse, but he doesn't have any control over the DC multiverse.

The problem with both Ike and Ganondorf is that there is the idea that they are immune to everything except a specific thing, such as Ashera for Ike and light, holy, evil's bane for Ganondorf. But, as noted before, the major problem is no limits fallacy. Has Ike ever demonstrated the ability to resist a nuclear explosion, or has Ganondorf ever shown the same?

And what about Bowser, who in Paper Mario wields the Star Rod, a sacred item with the power to grant any wish made by its master? Is it 'divine'? Who knows, it is hard enough to tell if the Mario Universe even has gods, given that the Star Spirits seem to actually 'rule' the Mushroom World while Rosalina opts to serve as its guardian. But it is almost certainly omnipotent, only failing Bowser when the seven Star Spirits (its creators and masters) and Peach (who as aforementioned has some extremely ambiguous cosmic role, or something) combine their powers — and even then, they can only 'disable' the defense for a short while, he can still use it to attack and heal himself. And furthermore, the characters even point out that Bowser could have taken over the entire universe the moment he had his hands on it, if he had been the least bit smart or efficient in its use.

This seems like a case of what happened in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. You have Zelda who fires out some source of light at Ganondorf, tells Link to deliver the final blow, and then Zelda summons the sages to assist her in sealing Ganondorf away into the Evil Realm. The problem is that outside help is not permitted if it is sentient. Otherwise, everyone else gets outside help, and then we'll have to figure out where we stop with this. And, I don't think anyone wants to deal with an antimatter bomb explosion that was capable of destroying planet SR388.

In Bowsers case, he didn't take control because of plot. It wouldn't allow him such. If we allowed Bowser the Star Rod, how do we know he would wish for his opponents to be wished away? Can he do that? He has never demonstrated it. The idea of what the Star Rod can do to another person is questionable. It reminds me, in fact, of Superboy Prime, who is interestingly resistant to any reality warping because he is not from that particular universe. He is from the Prime universe. Same with the Infinity Gauntlet in one of the Fantastic Four comics. Reed Richards from different universes had their own Infinity Gauntlet, but it didn't work outside of their universe. This is why I don't care about gods or goddesses.

And what about Mario himself, who by 'wishing' (the Marioverse equivalent to 'praying') can literally summon the Star Spirits, who may very well be his universe's gods(/goddesses)? What would happen if he used the Star Beam on Ike, the Star Beam being a massive column of the Star Spirits' power that can 'override' omnipotence (or at least the omnipotence of the Star Rod)?

It can override omnipotence? I am aware that it overrided Bowser's defense, which was just the source of the Star Rod anyway, and the Star Spirits are the creators of that particular item.

And look at it another way. What would happen if Mario actually died in one of these fights? In Super Paper Mario, he actually was sent to the afterlife — and the ruler of the afterlife, Queen Jaydes, sent him back. Couldn't this be done ad infinitum? And even more so, later on in the game, Mario, Peach, Bowser, and Luigi, can all come and go from both possible afterlives as they please. Can any of them even 'die' if they just return to the world of the living whenever they want?

Nope. If we were going to bring up death and resurrection here, then I don't see how resurrection would help. Let's say that Samus kills Link. A fairy brings Link back to life. What's going to stop Samus from killing Link again if he doesn't have any way of killing Samus? Besides, this doesn't stop anyone from removing these characters from the battlefield, such as through a black hole or just knocking the character out of the battlefield.

And what about someone with Rosalina, who quite clearly has powers on par with a god despite is not actually ever stated to be 'divine'? She is evidently ageless, having lived for hundreds of years, and also immortal in the sense of being truly un-killable — she is totally unaffected by the universe literally collapsing with her in it, and even more shockingly, unfazed by it entirely; and moreso, she even seems to actively guide its recreation without showing any effort all.

I don't know anything about Rosalina. If you want to really show of Rosalina, or anyone for that matter, you're going to have to offer me feats, strength, speed, durability, and several other things. I really don't care about the word "god," "goddess," "divine." Those do not prove anything.

—Even discounting the issues of divinity, what about other interactions between characters for which there is no precedent? Can Samus' Power Armor, which is scientifically-based, defend against Zelda's magic or Ness/Lucas' psychic powers? It is indeed science-fiction science, but science nonetheless, so how does it work against the decidedly non-scientific powers of others?

That would really depend. I have a respect thread I have been working on for Samus, and it covers several things. Since you are asking how well Samus' Power Suit would do against the likes of Zelda's magic, or Ness and Lucas' psychic powers, I have a list of things that Samus has shown durability against. If you would like to see the list, I can show it to you through a private message, since it is 17 pages long. But, for now, the things covered in for her durability will be listed. Where they are demonstrated will not, unless you want to see it in a PM. So...

Durability: The ability to withstand injury.

• Acid: Refers to any kind of acid.
• Anti-Matter
• Bomb: Refers to anything that has explosive properties, whether animate or not.
• Bullet: Refers to bullet-like projectiles.
• Crush: Refers to things falling on or rolling over Samus.
• Dark Energy
• Dark Matter
• Electricity
• Energy: Refers to any kind of energy.
• Fire
• Ice
• Lava
• Laser
• Light Energy
• Missile
• Plasma
• Poison
• Ramming: Refers to creatures or objects that ram or charge at Samus.
• Rock
• Sharp: Refers to sharp or pointed objects, such as claws, blades, teeth, horns.
• Sonic: Refers to sonic weaponry, not Sonic the Hedgehog.
• Transdimensional Energy

To be honest, though, I think Samus has dealt with stronger attacks than what Zelda or Ness/Lucas may pull off.

What would happen if Kirby inhaled another character? In his actual games, this instantly defeats/kills any single enemy?[/quote]

Kirby is 8". I can see him doing this only to Olimar. And even then, Kirby cannot suck up King Dedede.

And what would happen if Pikachu is cut by Meta Knight's sword? Do Pokémon even bleed? And what would happen if Wario pointed his giant magnet against Link? Is the Master Sword magnetic?

You're thinking too much here. I want to see what a character is capable of doing. Would Pikachu bleed? Maybe. Would the Master Sword be drawn away magnetically? If it is holds some kind of magnetism.

—How about death mechanics? As aforementioned, Mario/Luigi/Bowser/Peach can all freely leave their series' afterlife whenever they want; the only reason reason this doesn't make it impossible to lose the game is because even those dimensions are threatened by the multiverse collapsing as well. And what about extra lives? Extra lives are brought up in conversation in Super Paper Mario — if I recall correctly, two of the residents of said afterlife are discussing having run out of them, and having gotten a 'game over', which is the term that is used to refer to death… 'Life' is used interchangeably with 'game', and 'game over' refers to being sent to the Underwhere/Overthere, the two possible afterlives of the Mario Multiverse. And in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, the Toads actually do give you extra lives as thanks for saving them. And in Super Mario Galaxy, Peach sends 1-Up Mushrooms to Mario to help him out, and Super Mario Galaxy 2, so does Rosalina. And hell, when Queen Jaydes is returning Mario to life, she even says "Game Over" and then "Continue". With all of that, can extra lives really be considered a 'game mechanic'? They are noted by the plot/story multiple times in multiple games.

Lives are a game mechanic. Your example of two residents talking about having lost all of their lives is no more credible than Navi telling Link to hold the A button. Link doesn't know what that means, or Otacon asking how Snake carries all those items. He even tells Snake to hold on and change the disc, when referring to the player changing the disc. It's just in the game.

And what about the health mechanics for Kirby or Meta Knight? Neither of them have ever been shown to have any sort of actual biology, and in a number of games Kirby's 'game over' only shows him having fallen asleep — presumably this allows the enemy to complete their plans while he is unconscious, thus a 'bad ending', but is there any way for him to actually die? And look at Kirby's Epic Yarn, where it is literally impossible to harm him — any hit or 'damage' only knocks him away and makes him drop money.

These are just game mechanics. Hit points are always dismissed in any video game discussion Furthermore, the fact that Kirby has had HP in most of his games, Epic Yarn only shows that HP is a game mechanic. Kirby has limitations.

And what can be said about Bowser? What sort of biology does he have? In Super Mario Galaxy, he is literally thrown through the surface of a sun and is shown a few seconds later to be totally fine. He's in exhausted, yes, but he isn't actually harmed in any way. And looking again at the Mario characters (apologies if you see my focus on them as favoritism or bias; I don't actually mean it that way, they're just the characters that are easiest to make examples out of, due partly to their great number of appearances; there's a lot to draw from), can Mario, Peach, Bowser or Luigi be killed by anything at all? The four of them having lived through the universe's collapse twice — in Super Mario Galaxy that can be explained via Rosalina, but in Super Paper Mario, there's nothing at all to protect them — the entire dimension of Sammer's Kingdom is literally annihilated, with them in it. Everyone and everything else is totally destroyed, except Mario, Bowser, and Peach, who each survive unharmed; the destruction of the universe only knocks them unconscious, and it wasn't like they escaped, either. They woke up in the nonexistence remains, a white plane of total nothingness.

There is a problem with this. These characters show an inconsistency of what they can and cannot survive. The only thing I can think of is that they have plot armor or something called the Rule of Funny, where they survive things or can do things that are otherwise impossible, just as long as it is funny. But, an example of Mario surviving the destruction of the universe just doesn't make any sense when there are other instances where he fails to survive Bowser's fireballs or lava in Super Mario Bros. Wii.

And going back to Pokémon, what sort of biology can we apply to them? This same trouble comes up with all non-human characters, we know very little about their actual biology. Both Kirby and the Pokémon seem to be biologically indestructible, their 'health' measured only by their stamina.

These games are cutesy. They won't show something horribly happening to them.

And how strong even are Pokémon against non-Pokémon? In Gold/Silver/Crystal/HeartGold/SoulSilver, Lance has his Dragonite use Hyper Beam on regular human being (a member of Team Rocket) — and he isn't injured at all, just knocked into a wall.

If that was the anime, I wouldn't be surprised. Jessie and James, for example, should be dead from electric shock. It's no surprise that a human in Pokémon would survive a hit from Hyper Beam.

—How do items work? Snake, a normal human, would naturally not be able to carry around that ridiculous arsenal of his without the game mechanics.

You should check out Snake's codec on Link. He asks Otacon how Link manages to hold all those items. This is non-canon, of course, but still...

Otacon: Uh... I wouldn't be talking if I were you
Snake: Oh? And why's that?
Otacon: I don't know. YOU tell ME, "Mr. Utility Belt".

So, what do we do? We ignore this. It is a game mechanic, but Snake will be permitted the items he has used for a specific incarnation we are using, should we discuss Snake.

But what about characters who actually have nonsensical/magical worlds and/or means to carry so much? Say, for example, Link.

Link isn't exempt from this, either. It's strange that his Iron Boots don't weigh him down, unless he is wearing them. Carrying them, and even a giant, metal ball should slow him down. Again, we ignore it and permit Link the weapons he acquires.

—How do we compare character sizes? Kirby is, supposedly, 8 inches tall, and Olimar is about the size of quarter. We don't actually have any sort of scale, however, for a great many other characters.

I don't know why this is relevant.

—What sort of equipment can be 'brought'? If Captain Falcon can enter a match in his Blue Falcon, can't Samus bring her ship? And couldn't Meta Knight bring the Halberd? And what about robotic minions/weapons, like Meta Knight's Heavy Lobster?

Falcon will be permitted the Blue Falcon, since he drives that in every game. Samus could use her ship if we were using the incarnation from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. Of course, the strongest one is from MF. Meta Knight and his Halberd. Hm. Good question on that and his robots.

—And what about the armies, like those of Bowser, King Dedede, and Ganondorf? Isn't having a military force a type of power? Or what about Marth or Ike? Even Peach and Zelda have command of a military force.

Those are outside help. They're sentient beings.

—What about this: Do the characters actually have to act true to their personalities? Luigi, for example, is a total coward who goes into total psychological shutdown when scared and alone — he only actually does anything in spite of his fear when he has assistance. In a fight against someone like Samus, he might just flat out surrender. Or how about Pikachu? Pokémon without command are ridiculously incompetent fighters.

Usually in a battle, bloodlust is on. So we ignore the character's personality, which is usually used for driving the plot. Plot-induced stupidity and character-induced stupidity is off.

 

[Alopex]

I have heard of Amaterasu, but I don't know anything about her.

She is the main character of Okami, which is a game I insist everyone play as it is simply the best game I've ever played. It's originally a PS2 game, but it was ported to the Wii. Both are good, but if I have to suggest one, I'd suggest the PS2 version.
It's been compared to Zelda, and indeed that is a fair comparison, but it is no clone and is awesome exactly because it does something so unique with that established formula.

I have. But to be honest, J'onn J'onzz over Professor X any day.

Heh, good ol' Martian. But Prof X is weak sauce. He's just a telepath. It's Jean Grey (aka Phoenix) that is the infamous one. And in her Phoenix incarnation she also has firepower, as if telepathy and telekinetics weren't enough, so poor J'ohn wouldn't do so well there.

But she remains the most powerful mutant ever and one of the most powerful entities in the Marvel universe, and it's because of her ridiculous psychic powers.

That is questionable, but if you would like to see one of these characters battle Mewtwo, you can suggest it.

I guess it just depends on whether or not we are using video game Mewtwo or anime Mewtwo. I guess you said video games only, though. In his video game incarnation, Mewtwo is certainly weak, as his psychic powers aren't anything special. The anime movie makes his unstoppable, but none of those abilities are in the games so... yeah. Mewtwo would lose this one.

Careful there. Although Amaterasu is a goddess, rank doesn't equate above all else in terms of characters from other universes. Feats and versatility are what matters.

Oh, her being a goddess is just a "feat", really. Once you play Okami, you'll see she is EXTREMELY versatile and essentially unstoppable, which is why I think she'd win hands down always. Her being a goddess is another factor that you'll see come about in the game: she gains more power with more praise/faith.
However! Her power does not diminish with less praise/faith. So her being a goddess grants her a faith bonus that only serves to skyrocket her power level beyond what she would have as a base anyway.

So, right now, I see someone wants Captain Falcon in the battle. I see Amaterasu being promoted in the battle by Alopex. Again, Alopex, if you want to have Amaterasu or Mewtwo fight one of the three that you mentioned, just tell me.

I don't know how the fight would be carried out, exactly. Will it be you carefully analyzing each character's attributes, feats, and abilities and determining who comes out on top?
If so, then you need to fully play Okami first, as its the only way to really get a feel for Ammy.
But you playing Okami would be a great thing so...

Or would it be a poll?
Unfortunately, not enough people have played Okami to know what Amaterasu is capable of or prefer her over a Nintendo character, so I don't think that'd be an accurate measurement of tier.

 

[Crystanium]

She is the main character of Okami, which is a game I insist everyone play as it is simply the best game I've ever played. It's originally a PS2 game, but it was ported to the Wii. Both are good, but if I have to suggest one, I'd suggest the PS2 version.

I know that much. I have a friend who has played the game for the PS2.

Heh, good ol' Martian. But Prof X is weak sauce. He's just a telepath. It's Jean Grey (aka Phoenix) that is the infamous one. And in her Phoenix incarnation she also has firepower, as if telepathy and telekinetics weren't enough, so poor J'ohn wouldn't do so well there.

But she remains the most powerful mutant ever and one of the most powerful entities in the Marvel universe, and it's because of her ridiculous psychic powers.

I still don't know about that. And if I recall correctly, Martian Manhunter doesn't have a psychosomatic fear of fire anymore. Anyway.

I guess it just depends on whether or not we are using video game Mewtwo or anime Mewtwo. I guess you said video games only, though. In his video game incarnation, Mewtwo is certainly weak, as his psychic powers aren't anything special. The anime movie makes his unstoppable, but none of those abilities are in the games so... yeah. Mewtwo would lose this one.

Other sources are allowed if they are canon.

Oh, her being a goddess is just a "feat", really. Once you play Okami, you'll see she is EXTREMELY versatile and essentially unstoppable, which is why I think she'd win hands down always. Her being a goddess is another factor that you'll see come about in the game: she gains more power with more praise/faith.
However! Her power does not diminish with less praise/faith. So her being a goddess grants her a faith bonus that only serves to skyrocket her power level beyond what she would have as a base anyway.

Maybe you can tell me a bit about Amaterasu. It is doubtful I'll ever sit down to play the game. The only sources I'll ever be able to use are videos from YouTube and the Okami wiki. Unfortunately, it'll be a while before I can see videos on YouTube, since I am not using my own computer. :/

I don't know how the fight would be carried out, exactly. Will it be you carefully analyzing each character's attributes, feats, and abilities and determining who comes out on top?
If so, then you need to fully play Okami first, as its the only way to really get a feel for Ammy.
But you playing Okami would be a great thing so...

Or would it be a poll?
Unfortunately, not enough people have played Okami to know what Amaterasu is capable of or prefer her over a Nintendo character, so I don't think that'd be an accurate measurement of tier.

I'll be basing it off of what Amaterasu is capable of doing. I spoke to my friend about the different abilities Amaterasu uses, and it seems that some abilities like fireballs, or ice attacks, or electric attacks are dependent on an external source. So, for example, to use a fireball, there would need to be a flame present or something of the sort. My friend has told me about Amaterasu's abilities, but I am really wondering what she is capable of doing, since it's been a while since my friend has played it.

 

[Reach_Out_12]

Captain Falcon can destroy planets with his bare hands.

Samus has all her Chozo training and her power suit.

Pit has a holy bow that transforms into two blades, as well as the armies of heaven at his command.

Bowser's been jumped on, exploded, thrown into lava, evaporated, fell into empty abyss god knows how many times, got sucked into an exploding black hole, and got pelted in the face by meteor, but he still comes back for more.

I'd say they are all worthy candidates.

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

@ Dryn:

Actually, later in the game in Okami, you are able to use elements without an external source.

 

[Crystanium]

Captain Falcon can destroy planets with his bare hands.

I don't think he has ever demonstrated this feat before. In the anime, that huge explosion wasn't caused by a Falcon Punch. It was caused by Black Shadow's malfunctioned reactor.

Samus has all her Chozo training and her power suit.

There is more to her than that, which I have listed in my official respect thread that has not yet been disclosed to the public.

Pit has a holy bow that transforms into two blades, as well as the armies of heaven at his command.

I don't know any feats that Pit has really performed to make him shine. I owned the original Kid Icarus for the NES, and I have bought it on my VC and completed it again, but I really can't think of any amazing feats. His army would not be allowed in the battle, since that's outside help.

Bowser's been jumped on, exploded, thrown into lava, evaporated, fell into empty abyss god knows how many times, got sucked into an exploding black hole, and got pelted in the face by meteor, but he still comes back for more.

I'd say they are all worthy candidates.

They've all been done.

@ Dryn:

Actually, later in the game in Okami, you are able to use elements without an external source.

I was aware of Solar Flare, but I haven't checked the rest of the stuff at Okami Wiki.

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

Fireburst lets you create a ball of fire, Thunderbolt lets you create a strike of lightning, Deluge lets you create rain, and Blizzard lets you create ice. Not to mention that the Solar Flare, Tundra Beads, and Thunder Edge are sources of fire, ice, and lightning respectively.

 

[WiiWouldLikeTwoPlay]

The word "incarnation" refers to the character in a specific game. Samus is the selfsame character throughout the series, but each game is separate. A separate game is equal to a specific incarnation. Metroid II: Return of Samus leads toward Super Metroid. Although there isn't a gap in the timeline, this does not mean that the items Samus acquired in RoS will be combined with SM. Not that this matters, of course, since most of RoS items were transitioned over to SM anyway. The idea of incarnations is no different than using a current incarnation.

Oh? Then what about two different incarnations that are part of the same continuity? The Paper Mario series can be shown, canonically, to be a series of direct sequels. So aren't the incarnations of Mario from Paper Mario, the Thousand Year Door, and Super Paper Mario all the same? And what about region issues? In Japan, Paper Mario is a direct sequel to Super Mario RPG, which would mean each of the characters there is the same as well.

In order to determine who is the more powerful incarnation, however, you would need to observe the overall aspect of the character. Feats from previous games would be permitted, and if say the character is high up on speed, durability, and firepower, but not strength, and there is no other incarnation that surpasses the speed, durability, or firepower aspect, you're better off using the incarnation with the best speed, durability, and firepower, since there are three strong points over one.

And what about inconsistencies due to game mechanics? In Super Mario RPG, Mario is shown in the prologue to be able to jump far higher than he ever does during any other game. He jumps three floors at once (if you take each level of windows, each of which appears to be just shy of three times Mario's height, to be a 'floor') to reach chandeliers suspended above him. And later, he jumps nine more levels/floors/whatever at once, jumping off of Bowser while falling in midair. How would this sort of thing apply?

Please see the OP for the specifics on inherent abilities and acquired abilities. That should answer your question. An inherent ability, for example, is Samus being capable of using SenseMove, even though she has never demonstrated this in any of the Metroid games, save the Prime series where it was demonstrated in cut-scenes, and MOM. Since Samus is the selfsame character, if we were to use the Metroid: Zero Mission incarnation, Samus would be permitted Concentration, Crystal Flash, SenseMove, Overblast, Lethal Strike, and the Special Beam Charge Combos that were featured in SM.

Then allow me to point out something ambiguous. Continuing with the example of Peach, in Super Mario RPG she gains abilities as she gets experience without the help of any other character — they are abilities she naturally learns herself. But they are acquired via practice/experience/increase-in-skill/what-have-you. Thus they are both inherent and acquired.

I'd also like to point something else out. In Super Mario RPG, Mario demonstrates the aforementioned immense jumping ability in the very beginning of the game. He later gains the ability use that same skill (dubbed the Ultra Jump) at one of the very last 'levels'. Couldn't we thus draw on the idea that the fact that he wasn't able to use it from the beginning was a game mechanic, and thus he needed no 'experience' nor 'levels' to 'acquire' it?

The acquired abilities, however, would be different. This would mean that Samus does not have the Grapple Voltage, Phazon Missiles, or whatever of the sort. And of course, there are other problems. If we were to assume that the MP incarnation of Samus was the strongest, we wouldn't allow her the Phazon Beam, since she would require an outside source, Metroid Prime, to give her the ammunition.

Those are not acquired abilities, that is acquired weaponry… which is an entirely different argument. Samus's marksmanship is an 'ability', her superhuman physical prowess via Chozo blood/genetics/biological-alterations area abilities. The suit is a weapon, an item, and/or a tool. Her skill in using it is not.

Peach's magical/supernatural abilities are her own powers inherent to her being that manifest themselves in different ways in different ways, but do not contradict.

I am looking for canon. These games aren't really any different from a game like Super Smash Bros. or Marvel vs. Capcom. Sure, Amaterasu shows off her abilities in MvC that she demonstrates in Okami, but it doesn't mean it's canon. It simply means that the elements of the character are carried over into a game like Super Mario Sluggers. In other words, canon takes precedence over any other source, unless the source can be verified as canon. And no, just because it's from Nintendo, doesn't mean it's a part of canon.

Then it's such a shame you can't say what is or isn't, isn't it? If you can show that something has been said to not be canon, that's fine. But you can't say that it isn't, simply because it's of a different genre.

Unbreakability is an impossibility, both in reality and logically. Peach may demonstrate an indestructible parasol, but then if I began to ask you if it has ever been hit by a plasma weapon, or supercool plasma, only to be shattered by a concussive blast, or a multiterawatt burst of electricity, or ever been tossed into a black hole, only to retain its form, the the idea of it being unbreakable becomes questionable. Is it defined as being unbreakable? Is it just a game mechanic? There is no room for a no-limits fallacy. If an object has never demonstrated the ability to withstand something, then it's going to be assumed that the object cannot withstand it.

Then you've just made a fatal error. "If an object has never demonstrated the ability to withstand something, then it's going to be assumed that the object cannot withstand it."

Alright, Ganondorf is killed instantly by the hammer of the Ice Climbers because it was never shown that the Triforce of Power would withstand it. And Kirby cannot withstand the poisoning of a white Pikmin because it was never shown that he can withstand it. Meta Knight's sword shatters against Pikachu's skin because it has not been shown that Meta Knight's sword can withstand it.

Reductio ad absurdum. A legitimate form of argument, correct? I merely took your premise and applied it to other situations.

No, it has not been shown that Peach's parasol would protect against an attack from Ganondorf. It also has not been shown that it would fail to protect her, either. And you simply cannot say "because it has not been shown otherwise, it would fail." That idea then applies to everything.

Simply because the parasol has not been broken does not make it unbroken. The fact that it does not break under any attack in the entirety of the game, up to and including the attacks of the pure embodiment of chaos, an entity powerful enough to destroy the entirety of the multiverse, shows us only that.

For anything like this to work, we have to make endless assumptions, and oftentimes, thus assumptions are based upon inference. The no-limits fallacy, you say? True, I lack the authority to say the parasol would not break. But no other person possesses the ability to say that it would. I say the parasol has no limits because it is not ever shown to have any limits, but not simply because it went unbroken throughout the entirety of the game — that same argument could be made to say the Pokémon Trainer cannot bleed, having never bled in any game. I can however say that it would be reasonable withstand the attacks of Ganondorf, if it was able to withstand the attacks of a being far more powerful than him (which it was). I can also say that there is reason to believe it could be unbreakable via other evidence in the game, but that's changing from the point I wished to make.

This is why these threads have always failed. No one can agree on what X implies, or what can be inferred from Z, or what sort of assumption can be made. But for this to even begin to exist, we need to be able to come to an agreement on what can and cannot be reasonably assumed. Saying something like "If an object has never demonstrated the ability to withstand something, then it's going to be assumed that the object cannot withstand it." is an instant defeat for this entire idea, because then Samus's suit will fail if Zelda so much as taps it.

These characters are from entirely different universes with different laws of physics, nature, and logic. There is no guarantee for anything here, it all has to be assumed. Each case has to be argued individually, over what was implied, what can be inferred, and what can be assumed. End all be all statements will only destroy the validity of this thread, as will excessive assumptions.

You would have to explain the situation. I don't have any context here.

Mario is having his final showdown against Bowser, who via the Star Rod, has made himself unable to be hurt in any way. The Star Spirits have given Mario the power of the Star Beam, which is a vaguely-defined combination of all of their collective powers that can overpower the Star Rod. Kammy, a master of dark magic, has done something ambiguous to the arena to make it so the Star Spirits are weakened, and thus the effort fails. Peach then uses the power "Focus" (Mario has the same if not an extremely similar ability, which apparently is simply the act of building up one's power — Peach has the ability to give her power to others as well, which is seemingly unique to her) to empower Twink, another Star being, and he defeats Kammy. Peach then does the same thing for the Star Spirits, this time apparently hijacking the power of the rest of the Mushroom Kingdom (or something… again, it's very vague. Twink tells Peach that if she makes a wish, wishing being the child-friendly term for 'prayer', for "everyone in the Mushroom Kingdom" she may be able to help… which apparently works, given that upon receiving it Eldstar claims he can feel the wishes of everyone in the Mushroom Kingdom) to give an immense boost in power to the Star Spirits and upgrading the Star Beam to the "Peach Beam", which Mario uses to strip Bowser of his power (this is apparently not permanent, as he is able to use the Star Rod to become invincible again after some amount of time, but it can be repeated endlessly without any cost).

I can't say. How did she acquire them? Are they from an outside source that is sentient (acquired ability/outside help)? Does she naturally learn them (inhereted ability)?

Peach (along with Mario, Luigi, Bowser himself and a few others) is a Star Child, and because the Mario series loves being ambiguous about the theology/cosmology of its universe, what this means isn't exactly well-understood. They're apparently messianic figures predicted by prophecy (or at least detailed in myth, or something) who each possess incredible and vague powers from the very moment they're born. To quote:

Bowser: And you're absolutely sure that these stars are powerful enough to take over the universe?
Kamek: No doubt about it, sir. The babies are called star children, and they each possess an extraordinary amount of power... And once they're in your royal hands, sir, the world is your oyster.

So Peach's abilities are indeed inherent, but also as mentioned, both incredibly powerful and unhelpfully vague.

Well, I'm not worried about timelines. To be honest, I think Link's strongest incarnation is from The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. His only problem is that a majority of his more useful abilities consume magic. Link is basically set.

Firstly, some may disagree on that, so it is still relevant. Secondly, Link isn't just a single human life, he's each and every one of them. An everliving soul who takes a human life any time he is needed in the world.

I honestly never cared about gods or goddesses when it came to any discussion outside of video games, because they are only powerful in their respective universe. It's like being the CEO of a car company. Let's assume I own Toyota and you own Chevrolet. I have complete control over my company (universe), and you have complete control over your own. I am powerless in yours, and you are powerless in mine.

In order to even have any control over the other company, you would need to have been the creator of that company as well. The One Above All from Marvel may have complete control over his multiverse, but he doesn't have any control over the DC multiverse.

That is something else entirely. Legal authority over one's company is incomparable to literal omnipotence. And as for the One Above All… that would be because he is fictitious, and the DC multiverse does not even exist to him. This is a crossover, so let us try this: what would happen if the One Above All gave random character X divine protection from anything else via omnipotence, and then sent him off to fight a warrior who has been given the ability to pierce all defenses by another omnipotent being on par with the One Above All from a different universe?

It is two opposing forces of omnipotence.

The problem with both Ike and Ganondorf is that there is the idea that they are immune to everything except a specific thing, such as Ashera for Ike and light, holy, evil's bane for Ganondorf. But, as noted before, the major problem is no limits fallacy. Has Ike ever demonstrated the ability to resist a nuclear explosion, or has Ganondorf ever shown the same?

When an omnipotent being declares so and ensures it with their power, then yes, you will be immune to a nuclear explosion. That much is assured because omnipotence is by definition omnipotence, and you cannot say the no-limits fallacy applies to something that literally does not have limits. The trouble here is when two omnipotent forces oppose each other, how limits imposed by a being with no limits apply to another being with no limits.

This seems like a case of what happened in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. You have Zelda who fires out some source of light at Ganondorf, tells Link to deliver the final blow, and then Zelda summons the sages to assist her in sealing Ganondorf away into the Evil Realm. The problem is that outside help is not permitted if it is sentient. Otherwise, everyone else gets outside help, and then we'll have to figure out where we stop with this. And, I don't think anyone wants to deal with an antimatter bomb explosion that was capable of destroying planet SR388.

You missed the point. Mario is not starting the match with the Star Spirits by his side, they are not part of his power. He does however have the power to summon them, which is a part of his power. Look at the Ushiromiya Kinzo from Umineko no Naku Koro ni. He is described as being a master magician with no magical power whatsoever. How? Because he devoted his existence to mastering the art of summoning. This was once summed up by the author as saying that though he lacks the power to cast a spell to heat his tea, he can summon demons capable of boiling away an ocean. Summoning is a legitimate power that a character can possess themselves which does not depend on the powers of others. Kinzo is a master magician because of the summoning arts, with which he can call any demon in existence to his side, and they are forced to follow his command.

So why wouldn't that be allowed? Kinzo's summoning magic does not rely on any other being, it is his own power. Or look at it this way: the Pikmin can harvest nutrients to create more Pikmin. Isn't this the same as getting outside help with one's own power?

In Bowsers case, he didn't take control because of plot. It wouldn't allow him such. If we allowed Bowser the Star Rod, how do we know he would wish for his opponents to be wished away? Can he do that? He has never demonstrated it. The idea of what the Star Rod can do to another person is questionable. It reminds me, in fact, of Superboy Prime, who is interestingly resistant to any reality warping because he is not from that particular universe. He is from the Prime universe. Same with the Infinity Gauntlet in one of the Fantastic Four comics. Reed Richards from different universes had their own Infinity Gauntlet, but it didn't work outside of their universe. This is why I don't care about gods or goddesses.

You cannot apply the no-limits fallacy to something that genuinely has no limits. The Star Rod canonically has the power to grant any wish, that is what is canonically true. Therefore, any wish that can be made can be granted by it. And please do not bring the theory of narrative causality into this, that can kill literally anything. "Link didn't just use unknown powers of the Triforce of Courage because of plot" is an insupportable argument. No, people keep making the mistake and saying that the characters somehow exist outside of the games and are controlled by the story. No, they are not. They are part of the story, as fictitious characters.

I can agree to the banning of certain game mechanics when the game mechanics are contradicted by the story and/or other elements of the game, which indicate they are not actually part of the game's world. This, however, goes far too far.

And the Marvel Universe has no bearing on this; it is an example of how this work's within a self-consistent universe. There is no reason to believe things that apply to Marvel characters somehow apply to Mario characters, Zelda characters, Sonic characters, and so on.

It can override omnipotence? I am aware that it overrided Bowser's defense, which was just the source of the Star Rod anyway, and the Star Spirits are the creators of that particular item.

Them having created it is meaningless, as it is omnipotent nonetheless and they have no particular power over it; in fact, it goes both ways if you'll recall, as Bowser uses it to render the Spirits powerless in the beginning of the story.

And Bowser's defense was indeed from the Star Rod. So? It was still an omnipotent force that was protecting him.

Nope. If we were going to bring up death and resurrection here, then I don't see how resurrection would help. Let's say that Samus kills Link. A fairy brings Link back to life. What's going to stop Samus from killing Link again if he doesn't have any way of killing Samus? Besides, this doesn't stop anyone from removing these characters from the battlefield, such as through a black hole or just knocking the character out of the battlefield.

Perhaps I'll do it this way, then: What constitutes a win, and what constitutes a loss?

I don't know anything about Rosalina. If you want to really show of Rosalina, or anyone for that matter, you're going to have to offer me feats, strength, speed, durability, and several other things. I really don't care about the word "god," "goddess," "divine." Those do not prove anything.

She survives, is entirely unharmed and unfazed by, and even guides, the destruction and recreation of an entire universe. How's that for 'durable'?

That would really depend. I have a respect thread I have been working on for Samus, and it covers several things. Since you are asking how well Samus' Power Suit would do against the likes of Zelda's magic, or Ness and Lucas' psychic powers, I have a list of things that Samus has shown durability against. If you would like to see the list, I can show it to you through a private message, since it is 17 pages long. But, for now, the things covered in for her durability will be listed. Where they are demonstrated will not, unless you want to see it in a PM. So...

*insert long list*

To be honest, though, I think Samus has dealt with stronger attacks than what Zelda or Ness/Lucas may pull off.

I read the above, but fail to see how it applies to the point. "Can Samus' Power Armor, which is scientifically-based, defend against Zelda's magic or Ness/Lucas' psychic powers? It is indeed science-fiction science, but science nonetheless, so how does it work against the decidedly non-scientific powers of others?"

Samus is using science, and others use sorcery. Can Samus use (pseudo)science to defend against magic?

Kirby is 8". I can see him doing this only to Olimar. And even then, Kirby cannot suck up King Dedede.

See further down; but I'd also like to point out Smash Bros. is where the 8'' thing came from, or so it seems.

You're thinking too much here. I want to see what a character is capable of doing. Would Pikachu bleed? Maybe. Would the Master Sword be drawn away magnetically? If it is holds some kind of magnetism.

See, that's a problem. The 'maybe' and 'if' both cover things that we cannot know. Arguing about them would be making assumptions unless evidence is presented.

Lives are a game mechanic. Your example of two residents talking about having lost all of their lives is no more credible than Navi telling Link to hold the A button. Link doesn't know what that means, or Otacon asking how Snake carries all those items. He even tells Snake to hold on and change the disc, when referring to the player changing the disc. It's just in the game.

'Game mechanic'? 'Game mechanics' are: "constructs of rules intended to produce an enjoyable game or gameplay." This is dialogue by two characters accessible in the story that does not in any way relate to a tutorial, and it is thus not part of the the gameplay (and by definition, not a game mechanic). Both the gameplay and the story are consistent on the existence of extra lives. If they exist canonically, they are undeniable, and given that they are not a mechanic, you'll have to discredit this some other way.

These are just game mechanics. Hit points are always dismissed in any video game discussion Furthermore, the fact that Kirby has had HP in most of his games, Epic Yarn only shows that HP is a game mechanic. Kirby has limitations.

1) No, they are not. You cannot apply a human biology to nonhuman characters and say any failure in adherence to that biology is simply a game mechanic. And no, they are not always dismissed; I've had this same argument before on a predecessor to this thread and a forum that existed entirely for that purpose, and have won both. The specific cases I was able to argue for were taken into canonical account.
2) Epic Yarn takes place in an entirely different dimension in which his body is entirely different, how his body handles damage there is of course going to be different from in his usual state.

There is a problem with this. These characters show an inconsistency of what they can and cannot survive. The only thing I can think of is that they have plot armor or something called the Rule of Funny, where they survive things or can do things that are otherwise impossible, just as long as it is funny. But, an example of Mario surviving the destruction of the universe just doesn't make any sense when there are other instances where he fails to survive Bowser's fireballs or lava in Super Mario Bros. Wii.

No, not really. This 'Rule of Funny' would not apply to a dramatic scene. And you can explain the inconsistencies, which by definition, makes them cease to be inconsistencies.

These games are cutesy. They won't show something horribly happening to them.

Metroid is serious. Samus isn't actually powerful at all, they just have her do things that make her look powerful to appeal to her fans.

Canonically, neither Kirby nor Pikachu bleed, and canonically, Samus is practically a one-man army. This is not changed because of the style of the game. The canon exists independently of that. And that's also a matter of opinion: I could just as easily say Metroid is less a serious game than Pokémon. What does Samus do, stop the Space Pirates? In Diamond/Pearl/Platinum, our dear unnamed protagonist prevented the total destruction of the entire universe by the gods of space and time.

Something without evidence isn't going to hold up as an argument.

If that was the anime, I wouldn't be surprised. Jessie and James, for example, should be dead from electric shock. It's no surprise that a human in Pokémon would survive a hit from Hyper Beam.

Yet it wasn't, and I stated as such.

You should check out Snake's codec on Link. He asks Otacon how Link manages to hold all those items. This is non-canon, of course, but still...

Otacon: Uh... I wouldn't be talking if I were you
Snake: Oh? And why's that?
Otacon: I don't know. YOU tell ME, "Mr. Utility Belt".

So, what do we do? We ignore this. It is a game mechanic, but Snake will be permitted the items he has used for a specific incarnation we are using, should we discuss Snake.

The Solid Snake universe is not the same as any other. Snake making use of a game mechanic may be true. That doesn't discredit anyone else who may actually be able to explain it.

Link isn't exempt from this, either. It's strange that his Iron Boots don't weigh him down, unless he is wearing them. Carrying them, and even a giant, metal ball should slow him down. Again, we ignore it and permit Link the weapons he acquires.

So it's alright for Link's ridiculous storage space, which is a stated and admitted game mechanic, to be used; but not the canonical health systems of other characters?

I don't know why this is relevant.

Fine, I'll state it this way then:
How tall is Link, a Hyrulian, compared to Ike, a beorc?
Yes, they have humanoid appearances. But very few of the Smash characters, at least, are actually biologically human. So how does size work?

Falcon will be permitted the Blue Falcon, since he drives that in every game. Samus could use her ship if we were using the incarnation from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. Of course, the strongest one is from MF. Meta Knight and his Halberd. Hm. Good question on that and his robots.

There are troubling cracks in this, and that's all I'm trying to do. Point them out, so something can be done. And thus… on I continue:

How about this form of sentience? Samus's ship is programmed with the uploaded mind of John Malkovich (though my spelling is probably off). Does that qualify as sentience?

Those are outside help. They're sentient beings.

Perhaps. But isn't an aspect of power? I could walk up and start shooting at the leader of random country X, and that person's personal force likely going to shoot me back. That isn't quite so good an example, but what I'm saying is: part of Bowser's strength is the fact that he has a loyal military force who will do anything he pleases.

…If you haven't noticed by now, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here and making arguments I don't necessarily believe in nor care for to try and test this system for holes and cracks. I've been part of three of the last four of these and a significant contributor to two of them, and it's getting annoying to see so much time and effort go into them only for them to get overrun with idiocy or locked out by the moderators or deleted for whatever reason. And I've also got an inordinate amount of spare time and an inability to tolerate boredom.

Usually in a battle, bloodlust is on. So we ignore the character's personality, which is usually used for driving the plot. Plot-induced stupidity and character-induced stupidity is off.

If this is, however, meant to be a battle between the characters, wouldn't it thus be, say, a battle between the characters as they actually are? True to their character, and all?

 

[Crystanium]

Fireburst lets you create a ball of fire, Thunderbolt lets you create a strike of lightning, Deluge lets you create rain, and Blizzard lets you create ice. Not to mention that the Solar Flare, Tundra Beads, and Thunder Edge are sources of fire, ice, and lightning respectively.

It seems you know something about Okami. We're just using Amaterasu, just to let you know. I am going to assume that this is what she is capable of doing. Do you have any feats Amaterasu has performed? It can be anything that can be useful for her. It seems Alopex wants to have Amaterasu face off against someone.

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

She uses her power against Orochi, who is an eight-headed dragon that can only be defeated by 8 Purification Sake, which she uses her Waterspout power to put in Orochi's mouth. She defeats Ninetails, who should supposedly be invincible due to the power of the Fox Rods, and saves Ryoshima Coast. She even manages to defeat Yami, who is the "Ruler of Darkness" in the game.

 

[Sr. P & R]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Giygas yet. He has no actual physical form, so although he can be "damaged" it does not hurt him. He also cannot be defeated without assistance, so either he wins by default or an exception is needed. As for attacks, his cannot be comprehended or sensed but can still deal heavy damage. So, they cannot be avoided or negated.

Just to clarify, he can only be defeated by the combined psychic(?) willpower of a large number of people. The game makes it quite clear that he cannot be defeated by a single person or small group of people, no matter how powerful as he cannot actually be "harmed" physical/mental/magical way.

 

[kurtmontag]

well, basically, the mana dragon's gonna rip all your *****. ganon's, samus' and everyone elses included.

 

[CaptainFalcon9000]

 

[JOE!]

why is this still going after it's been said who the god tiers are + its been done before

 

[WiiWouldLikeTwoPlay]

Simple.
1) It was never finished before.
2) This isn't the same thread nor the same concept; same general idea, but it is open to far, far more characters.
3) Because there are more characters than just the 'god tiers', and because even there, there is still reason for disagreement.

Those will do for now. Would you like more?

 

[CaptainFalcon9000]

Simple.
1) It was never finished before.
2) This isn't the same thread nor the same concept; same general idea, but it is open to far, far more characters.
3) Because there are more characters than just the 'god tiers', and because even there, there is still reason for disagreement.

Those will do for now. Would you like more?

well at the end, captain falcon ended up as god tier, end of story.

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

Actually, you were just trying to say that Falcon would be god tier just because he beat "The Creators" in a race. I'm not sure that proves anything other than his racing skills.

 

[WiiWouldLikeTwoPlay]

No, there has yet to be an incarnation where Falcon surpassed Mid Tier.

 

[CaptainFalcon9000]

No, there has yet to be an incarnation where Falcon surpassed Mid Tier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw

END
OF
STORY

 

[Crystanium]

Before I begin, I would encourage anyone to create a respect thread for the character he or she wishes to present. If a respect thread is made, I will put it in the first page. Just send the respect thread to me, and maybe we can discuss a few things here and there. I was thinking about making one for Amaterasu, since Alopex unfortunately has not really given me much to base off of.

Now, onto the discussion. It took me a while to get to this.

Oh? Then what about two different incarnations that are part of the same continuity? The Paper Mario series can be shown, canonically, to be a series of direct sequels. So aren't the incarnations of Mario from Paper Mario, the Thousand Year Door, and Super Paper Mario all the same? And what about region issues? In Japan, Paper Mario is a direct sequel to Super Mario RPG, which would mean each of the characters there is the same as well.

And there is a direct sequel from Metroid II: Return of Samus to Super Metroid. That’s irrelevant. We’re going with the strongest incarnation. Between these two, it would be SM.

And what about inconsistencies due to game mechanics? In Super Mario RPG, Mario is shown in the prologue to be able to jump far higher than he ever does during any other game. He jumps three floors at once (if you take each level of windows, each of which appears to be just shy of three times Mario's height, to be a 'floor') to reach chandeliers suspended above him. And later, he jumps nine more levels/floors/whatever at once, jumping off of Bowser while falling in midair. How would this sort of thing apply?

If the prologue is not occurring during in-game, and he jumps higher than he does in the game, then the cut-scene takes precedence. Game play is disregarded. For example, when Sonic the Hedgehog becomes his super form, in-game says he has 999 rings, and 1 ring is deducted every second. That’s a bit over 17 minutes. In the cut-scene, however, three days passed. One of two things can be said here. 1. Sonic was not in his super form for three days, but had become his super form three days later, or 2. Sonic was in his super form for three days.

Then allow me to point out something ambiguous. Continuing with the example of Peach, in Super Mario RPG she gains abilities as she gets experience without the help of any other character — they are abilities she naturally learns herself. But they are acquired via practice/experience/increase-in-skill/what-have-you. Thus they are both inherent and acquired.

I'd also like to point something else out. In Super Mario RPG, Mario demonstrates the aforementioned immense jumping ability in the very beginning of the game. He later gains the ability use that same skill (dubbed the Ultra Jump) at one of the very last 'levels'. Couldn't we thus draw on the idea that the fact that he wasn't able to use it from the beginning was a game mechanic, and thus he needed no 'experience' nor 'levels' to 'acquire' it?

As long as it’s the selfsame Peach. As for Mario, how is Ultra Jump acquired?

Then it's such a shame you can't say what is or isn't, isn't it? If you can show that something has been said to not be canon, that's fine. But you can't say that it isn't, simply because it's of a different genre.

If it’s a spin-off, it’s not regarded as canon. I don’t regard Metroid Pinball as canon, although it’s just a retelling of the story of Metroid Prime in pinball form.

Then you've just made a fatal error. "If an object has never demonstrated the ability to withstand something, then it's going to be assumed that the object cannot withstand it."

Alright, Ganondorf is killed instantly by the hammer of the Ice Climbers because it was never shown that the Triforce of Power would withstand it. And Kirby cannot withstand the poisoning of a white Pikmin because it was never shown that he can withstand it. Meta Knight's sword shatters against Pikachu's skin because it has not been shown that Meta Knight's sword can withstand it.

Reductio ad absurdum. A legitimate form of argument, correct? I merely took your premise and applied it to other situations.

To correct you, Ganondorf can take a hit from Link’s Megaton Hammer in OoT. Whether that’s a game mechanic, or has ever happened in the actual story is a different argument. There is a balance here, and it has always been a balance when I have gone to different message boards. It isn’t something I made up, and it was present in the previous canon thread. The balance is between what has not been demonstrated, and what is comparable to reality.

There is a bit of realism, but it isn’t so strict so as to dismiss things that are not scientifically possible or feasible. In other words, Link can use magic. Samus’ Power Suit can materialize whenever she so wills. Mario can jump very high, somehow. Sonic can run at the speed of sound without breaking his legs or passing out. I think you understand the idea. Now, let’s say that Mario was hit by Samus’ Plasma Beam. He’s not surviving that. He has never demonstrated the ability to, but more importantly, he’ll die in lava.

Then we have Link. In OoT, he can get hit by an Iron Knuckle’s axe and still survive. Does this mean that he won’t die by getting struck by an axe? No. It’s simply a game mechanic. There is no proof Link has superhuman durability outside of what is shown during game play. Game mechanics aren’t proof. It doesn’t tell us how dense Link’s skin is. This is what I brought up in my OP, and this is why I introduced different kinds of durability.

Simply because the parasol has not been broken does not make it unbroken. The fact that it does not break under any attack in the entirety of the game, up to and including the attacks of the pure embodiment of chaos, an entity powerful enough to destroy the entirety of the multiverse, shows us only that.

For anything like this to work, we have to make endless assumptions, and oftentimes, thus assumptions are based upon inference. The no-limits fallacy, you say? True, I lack the authority to say the parasol would not break. But no other person possesses the ability to say that it would. I say the parasol has no limits because it is not ever shown to have any limits, but not simply because it went unbroken throughout the entirety of the game — that same argument could be made to say the Pokémon Trainer cannot bleed, having never bled in any game. I can however say that it would be reasonable withstand the attacks of Ganondorf, if it was able to withstand the attacks of a being far more powerful than him (which it was). I can also say that there is reason to believe it could be unbreakable via other evidence in the game, but that's changing from the point I wished to make.

This is why these threads have always failed. No one can agree on what X implies, or what can be inferred from Z, or what sort of assumption can be made. But for this to even begin to exist, we need to be able to come to an agreement on what can and cannot be reasonably assumed. Saying something like "If an object has never demonstrated the ability to withstand something, then it's going to be assumed that the object cannot withstand it." is an instant defeat for this entire idea, because then Samus's suit will fail if Zelda so much as taps it.

Please provide proof that the parasol is unbreakable. At least with a fictional character like Captain America’s shield or Tony Stark’s powered armor, we have a reason as to why these two can take so many hits and not die. As far as I am aware, the only thing you have for Peach’s parasol as “proof” is a game mechanic. There is no instruction manual, no in-game information, such as onscreen or inventory data, no dialogue, and no proof from interviews. If there is, then perhaps you can provide it and show me.

As for your other examples, which are still based on your misunderstanding of my position, I’ll disregard them. Does Pikachu have super dense skin? If yes, prove it. Will Samus’ powered armor fall apart or fail if Zelda taps it? I doubt that, considering she’s dealt with the powerful Hyper Beam from Mother Brain, which is scripted. Zelda’s tap would need a lot more force than that. You can also stand by the idea that the no-limits fallacy is allowed for Peach’s parasol, but all you are doing is standing by a logical fallacy that is as clear as day. No one will accept it, and the argument fails.

These characters are from entirely different universes with different laws of physics, nature, and logic. There is no guarantee for anything here, it all has to be assumed. Each case has to be argued individually, over what was implied, what can be inferred, and what can be assumed. End all be all statements will only destroy the validity of this thread, as will excessive assumptions.

You are correct that things will need to be assumed if this is to work. And of course, there is no point to stress about the differences of law, nature, and logic if you or I do not know the differences in the first place, unless otherwise stated. For example, let us consider fire. How is fire produced? What is necessary for it to be made? In order to produce fire, you need oxygen, heat, and fuel. Do we really need to ask how fire can be created in any of these different universes?

On the other hand, if you or I stepped on a planet that had greater gravity than 1 g (standard Earth gravity), then we would notice the difference. And if the g’s were increased, we could possibly kill ourselves, as our heart would have to pump more blood at a faster rate, as well as have denser bone to support ourselves in this new environment. Samus Aran is a notable character in this regard. Without the Power Suit, she can lift 86 tons. This is based on two things that were supported from in-game and the official Metroid Prime website.

The information about planet Zebes, which Samus was raised on, has the mass of 4.8 trillion teratons and the diameter of 11,700 km. It is greater than Earth’s mass, but smaller in diameter compared to Earth, which is around the 12,000 km. range. With these numbers, the calculation for g’s can be made, and when they are made, Samus is on a planet that is 865.5 times greater in g versus Earth. So, if she was placed in standard Earth g, she can lift 86 tons without the Power Suit

While I do find this dubious, as I think Retro Studios meant something else, the numbers are accurate, and this does tell us something about the Metroid Universe. So, even if a character from a different universe with laws and all that stuff are different from another’s, it doesn’t matter. All characters will be on a battlefield that is equal to all things of Earth’s, i.e., same g, same laws, same logic, &c. If you want to argue against that, then be ready to present your proof that the other universes are different.

This isn’t about people creating magic out of nowhere. That’s fiction, and I’m sure we all know that. How Link produces a flame on his Fire Arrow is unknown. The answer for that is magic. Does it need the three things a flame needs? Yes. It ceases to function in water when water approaches a flame. Remember, heat is needed for fire to exist. In MP, when Samus uses the Flamethrower, she cannot use it underwater. It’s the same law, and it can be safely assumed as such, since the creators, unless otherwise specified, put what they knew into a video game.

This is also found in Majora’s Mask. Water can be frozen with the Ice Arrows, and they can be melted, such as when Link is going to fight Ghot. In Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, the Ice Missile will freeze the hot Fuel Gel. I can offer numerous examples, but I don’t think it’s really necessary, as I am sure you comprehend what I am saying. If you still don’t like the idea of assumptions unless otherwise stated, then you are more than welcome to ignore my thread and that will be the end of that.

Also, next time if you think that threads fail because of assumptions for something like this, then apparently you have never heard of FactPile.

Mario is having his final showdown against Bowser, who via the Star Rod, has made himself unable to be hurt in any way. The Star Spirits have given Mario the power of the Star Beam, which is a vaguely-defined combination of all of their collective powers that can overpower the Star Rod. Kammy, a master of dark magic, has done something ambiguous to the arena to make it so the Star Spirits are weakened, and thus the effort fails. Peach then uses the power "Focus" (Mario has the same if not an extremely similar ability, which apparently is simply the act of building up one's power — Peach has the ability to give her power to others as well, which is seemingly unique to her) to empower Twink, another Star being, and he defeats Kammy. Peach then does the same thing for the Star Spirits, this time apparently hijacking the power of the rest of the Mushroom Kingdom (or something… again, it's very vague. Twink tells Peach that if she makes a wish, wishing being the child-friendly term for 'prayer', for "everyone in the Mushroom Kingdom" she may be able to help… which apparently works, given that upon receiving it Eldstar claims he can feel the wishes of everyone in the Mushroom Kingdom) to give an immense boost in power to the Star Spirits and upgrading the Star Beam to the "Peach Beam", which Mario uses to strip Bowser of his power (this is apparently not permanent, as he is able to use the Star Rod to become invincible again after some amount of time, but it can be repeated endlessly without any cost).

I still don’t understand what point you were trying to make.

Peach (along with Mario, Luigi, Bowser himself and a few others) is a Star Child, and because the Mario series loves being ambiguous about the theology/cosmology of its universe, what this means isn't exactly well-understood. They're apparently messianic figures predicted by prophecy (or at least detailed in myth, or something) who each possess incredible and vague powers from the very moment they're born. To quote:

So Peach's abilities are indeed inherent, but also as mentioned, both incredibly powerful and unhelpfully vague.

Yes, quite vague, and unless the character demonstrates this incredible power you speak of, it really doesn’t help you, or me, or anyone else.

Firstly, some may disagree on that, so it is still relevant. Secondly, Link isn't just a single human life, he's each and every one of them. An everliving soul who takes a human life any time he is needed in the world.

Some may disagree? What about your perspective on who the strongest incarnation of Link is? Perhaps you can offer some explanation.

As for Link being this “everliving soul,” where is the evidence for this? We know that Link in The Wind Waker wasn’t the same Link, as even the Great Deku Tree found out.

That is something else entirely. Legal authority over one's company is incomparable to literal omnipotence.

Well, the goddesses from the different universes are restricted to their own universe, and one cannot usurp the other.

And as for the One Above All… that would be because he is fictitious, and the DC multiverse does not even exist to him.

And the three goddesses are also fictitious characters, and they do not exist in the universe of Fire Emblem.

This is a crossover, so let us try this: what would happen if the One Above All gave random character X divine protection from anything else via omnipotence, and then sent him off to fight a warrior who has been given the ability to pierce all defenses by another omnipotent being on par with the One Above All from a different universe?

Then you have the irresistible force versus the immovable object, which is illogical and unrealistic. The force would require infinite force, and the object would require infinite mass. The thing is, we don’t know what kind of resistance was given to these characters. So the point about Ganondorf and Ike being able to survive a nuclear explosion with no ill-effects afterward is unknown.

It is two opposing forces of omnipotence.

That’s an impossibility. Which god has power over the other? One god claims to be all-powerful. So does the other god. One must have all power, or both must have some power.

When an omnipotent being declares so and ensures it with their power, then yes, you will be immune to a nuclear explosion.

And this is not so for Ganondorf or Ike, as neither goddess provided protection for them.

That much is assured because omnipotence is by definition omnipotence, and you cannot say the no-limits fallacy applies to something that literally does not have limits. The trouble here is when two omnipotent forces oppose each other, how limits imposed by a being with no limits apply to another being with no limits.

A tautological statement helps neither you, nor me. And yes, I can say that omnipotence has limits. I’m sure you are aware of the paradox: Can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it? A better one may be, Can God make himself cease to exist? If yes, how does he return if he is non-existent? If no, then he has a limit. Your understanding of “omnipotence” seems to be absolute, in which case it’s illogical. If you are saying that this omnipotence is only capable of doing things that are logical, then there are still limits.

You missed the point. Mario is not starting the match with the Star Spirits by his side, they are not part of his power. He does however have the power to summon them, which is a part of his power. Look at the Ushiromiya Kinzo from Umineko no Naku Koro ni. He is described as being a master magician with no magical power whatsoever. How? Because he devoted his existence to mastering the art of summoning. This was once summed up by the author as saying that though he lacks the power to cast a spell to heat his tea, he can summon demons capable of boiling away an ocean. Summoning is a legitimate power that a character can possess themselves which does not depend on the powers of others. Kinzo is a master magician because of the summoning arts, with which he can call any demon in existence to his side, and they are forced to follow his command.

So why wouldn't that be allowed? Kinzo's summoning magic does not rely on any other being, it is his own power. Or look at it this way: the Pikmin can harvest nutrients to create more Pikmin. Isn't this the same as getting outside help with one's own power?

I didn’t miss the point. Summoning someone is a synergistic (requires two persons) thing. If I summon the President to leave the White House, he is not dependent on me or my summoning. He can ignore my summoning. He is his own sentience. Summoning is not power. These demons that Kinzo seems to be summoning appear out of nowhere. The power is not Kinzo’s but the demons he summons. These demons seem to lack autonomy, making them no better than an AI with preprogrammed commands.

You cannot apply the no-limits fallacy to something that genuinely has no limits. The Star Rod canonically has the power to grant any wish, that is what is canonically true. Therefore, any wish that can be made can be granted by it.

Has it ever demonstrated the ability to grant any wish?

And the Marvel Universe has no bearing on this; it is an example of how this work's within a self-consistent universe. There is no reason to believe things that apply to Marvel characters somehow apply to Mario characters, Zelda characters, Sonic characters, and so on.

And there is no reason to believe it would not.

Them having created it is meaningless, as it is omnipotent nonetheless and they have no particular power over it; in fact, it goes both ways if you'll recall, as Bowser uses it to render the Spirits powerless in the beginning of the story.

So they are not omnipotent?

And Bowser's defense was indeed from the Star Rod. So? It was still an omnipotent force that was protecting him.

So is the Star Rod the source of omnipotence?

Perhaps I'll do it this way, then: What constitutes a win, and what constitutes a loss?

A win is when the character dies or is removed from the battlefield. But, then again, this isn’t just how this thread works. This thread is mostly focused on what a character has done. In other words, if you have a character who hasn’t demonstrated some kind of physical strength, speed, or durability, and if the other character shows better versatility, then the one who is lacking is apparently not the winner. Unless of course the character has a trick up his or her sleeve, like stopping time.

She survives, is entirely unharmed and unfazed by, and even guides, the destruction and recreation of an entire universe. How's that for 'durable'?

You said she guides this, so I don’t see how that’s durability. This just shows that Rosalina destroyed and recreated an entire universe in the Mario Universe. I cannot see this for myself, as I cannot use YouTube on this computer. I could only see this for myself when I return home within about two weeks. You are more than welcome to leave a video for this.

I read the above, but fail to see how it applies to the point. "Can Samus' Power Armor, which is scientifically-based, defend against Zelda's magic or Ness/Lucas' psychic powers? It is indeed science-fiction science, but science nonetheless, so how does it work against the decidedly non-scientific powers of others?"

Samus is using science, and others use sorcery. Can Samus use (pseudo)science to defend against magic?

Let me put it this way for you. Let’s say Link is going to use a Fire Arrow on Samus. Well, Samus has already dealt with enemies that are capable of producing flames, and while her energy shield drains, she doesn’t die. What I have always wondered was this. What is the difference between natural fire and fire produced by magic or pyrokinesis?

See, that's a problem. The 'maybe' and 'if' both cover things that we cannot know. Arguing about them would be making assumptions unless evidence is presented.

Well, Pikachu is made of flesh, correct? If it is, Pikachu will bleed. The alloy the Master Sword is made out of is unknown, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was iron or steel, two kinds of metals in the Zelda Universe.

'Game mechanic'? 'Game mechanics' are: "constructs of rules intended to produce an enjoyable game or gameplay." This is dialogue by two characters accessible in the story that does not in any way relate to a tutorial, and it is thus not part of the the gameplay (and by definition, not a game mechanic). Both the gameplay and the story are consistent on the existence of extra lives. If they exist canonically, they are undeniable, and given that they are not a mechanic, you'll have to discredit this some other way.

Ah, but what Navi is doing is a part of the dialogue. The Great Deku Tree tells Navi to help Link and guide him. That’s what she does. When Link approaches a block, she tells him that he must move it, and instructs him on how. Of course, in-game dialogue tells Link to hold the “A” button and push. This is interconnected with the story.

Since you’re talking about the Shaydes, I would like to see the dialogue where the idea of lives was suggested in a way in which a Shayde has ever had more than one life. It would seem that the word “Game” refers to those who are alive, while “Game Over” means death.

Either way, lives are a game mechanic. If I am not mistaken, Super Paper Mario does not have something called “lives,” in the sense that 1-ups were used as they were previous Mario titles. Upon losing a life, the character simply starts over from the beginning if he or she has lost all of his or her lives, or from a checkpoint if that exists within the game.

1) No, they are not. You cannot apply a human biology to nonhuman characters and say any failure in adherence to that biology is simply a game mechanic.

Perhaps I cannot say such of an alien biology, but I don't see any reason to believe Kirby's skin is immune to this or that attack.

No, not really. This 'Rule of Funny' would not apply to a dramatic scene.

This is not an argument.

And you can explain the inconsistencies, which by definition, makes them cease to be inconsistencies.

You can explain the inconsistencies to make them consistent? Yes, if you apply game mechanics or plot armor.

Metroid is serious. Samus isn't actually powerful at all, they just have her do things that make her look powerful to appeal to her fans.

The audience Pokémon is aimed for children, correct? This has nothing to do with power. Those Pokémon can be the most powerful beings in the universe. No, this has to do with the audience. Pokémon is aimed for a younger audience and family. Like Disney, they won’t show blood. Mario, Samus, Link, Captain Falcon, these characters don’t expel dung from their bowels because we haven’t seen them do it, correct? Even this isn’t appropriate for these games.

Canonically, neither Kirby nor Pikachu bleed, and canonically,

And they don’t crap. Kirby may be a special case.

Samus is practically a one-man army.

Based on the storyline and her feats, yes. Even Adam Malkovich calls her a “galactic savior” in Metroid: Other M.

This is not changed because of the style of the game. The canon exists independently of that. And that's also a matter of opinion: I could just as easily say Metroid is less a serious game than Pokémon. What does Samus do, stop the Space Pirates? In Diamond/Pearl/Platinum, our dear unnamed protagonist prevented the total destruction of the entire universe by the gods of space and time.

Something without evidence isn't going to hold up as an argument.

So you better whip out those biology books pertaining to Pokémon. Not seeing them bleed isn’t going to cut it, correct? That’s an argument from ignorance.

The Solid Snake universe is not the same as any other. Snake making use of a game mechanic may be true. That doesn't discredit anyone else who may actually be able to explain it.

The universe Snake is in is located on planet Earth.

So it's alright for Link's ridiculous storage space, which is a stated and admitted game mechanic, to be used; but not the canonical health systems of other characters?

I didn’t say that. We’re ignoring this aspect of a magical satchel, as I said Link is not exempt from this, i.e., not excused. But hey…

http://www.zeldadungeon.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/itemsthelegendofzelda.png

Fine, I'll state it this way then:
How tall is Link, a Hyrulian, compared to Ike, a beorc?
Yes, they have humanoid appearances. But very few of the Smash characters, at least, are actually biologically human. So how does size work?

I still fail to see the relevance of a character’s height.

How about this form of sentience? Samus's ship is programmed with the uploaded mind of John Malkovich (though my spelling is probably off). Does that qualify as sentience?

John Malkovich? Is that a combination of John 117 and Adam Malkovich? Anyway, Samus doesn’t get to use her ship. I am not using MP3 incarnation, and the Metroid Fusion incarnation can be controlled by Adam, a sentient being. Samus doesn’t get to use that ship unless she controls it herself.

Perhaps. But isn't an aspect of power? I could walk up and start shooting at the leader of random country X, and that person's personal force likely going to shoot me back. That isn't quite so good an example, but what I'm saying is: part of Bowser's strength is the fact that he has a loyal military force who will do anything he pleases.

You’re talking about an army, not physical strength, which I ask of when I speak of strength. And yes, the leader’s forces may shoot you down after you gunned down the leader. However, if this was a battle between you and the leader of country X, then you would be the winner.

If this is, however, meant to be a battle between the characters, wouldn't it thus be, say, a battle between the characters as they actually are? True to their character, and all?

I suppose I’d have to come up with a reason as to why these characters are fighting each other. Let’s say that coward Luigi finds out that he had suffered from amnesia, and he never actually recovered. He learns that Mario was banging Luigi’s wife, Peach. He finds out about this and he no longer is cowardly. He really wants to kick Mario’s ***. Of course, I am aiming for who has better feats. If Mario has better feats than Luigi, Mario wins.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Giygas yet. He has no actual physical form, so although he can be "damaged" it does not hurt him. He also cannot be defeated without assistance, so either he wins by default or an exception is needed. As for attacks, his cannot be comprehended or sensed but can still deal heavy damage. So, they cannot be avoided or negated.

Just to clarify, he can only be defeated by the combined psychic(?) willpower of a large number of people. The game makes it quite clear that he cannot be defeated by a single person or small group of people, no matter how powerful as he cannot actually be "harmed" physical/mental/magical way.

Maybe we could do one with Giygas vs. Mother Brain on what their plans are and who they have controlled and ordered to do their bidding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw

END
OF
STORY

I cannot see the video, so I am going to make the assumption that this has to do with Falcon using a Falcon Punch on Black Shadow. The problem here is that the huge explosion was not caused by Falcon. It was caused by a faulty reactor. And unlike WiiWouldLikeTwoPlay's too generous of an idea that Falcon would be mid-tier, I doubt he'd reach even that.

 

[CaptainFalcon9000]

Before I begin, I would encourage anyone to create a respect thread for the character he or she wishes to present. If a respect thread is made, I will put it in the first page. Just send the respect thread to me, and maybe we can discuss a few things here and there. I was thinking about making one for Amaterasu, since Alopex unfortunately has not really given me much to base off of.

Now, onto the discussion. It took me a while to get to this.



And there is a direct sequel from Metroid II: Return of Samus to Super Metroid. That’s irrelevant. We’re going with the strongest incarnation. Between these two, it would be SM.



If the prologue is not occurring during in-game, and he jumps higher than he does in the game, then the cut-scene takes precedence. Game play is disregarded. For example, when Sonic the Hedgehog becomes his super form, in-game says he has 999 rings, and 1 ring is deducted every second. That’s a bit over 17 minutes. In the cut-scene, however, three days passed. One of two things can be said here. 1. Sonic was not in his super form for three days, but had become his super form three days later, or 2. Sonic was in his super form for three days.



As long as it’s the selfsame Peach. As for Mario, how is Ultra Jump acquired?



If it’s a spin-off, it’s not regarded as canon. I don’t regard Metroid Pinball as canon, although it’s just a retelling of the story of Metroid Prime in pinball form.



To correct you, Ganondorf can take a hit from Link’s Megaton Hammer in OoT. Whether that’s a game mechanic, or has ever happened in the actual story is a different argument. There is a balance here, and it has always been a balance when I have gone to different message boards. It isn’t something I made up, and it was present in the previous canon thread. The balance is between what has not been demonstrated, and what is comparable to reality.

There is a bit of realism, but it isn’t so strict so as to dismiss things that are not scientifically possible or feasible. In other words, Link can use magic. Samus’ Power Suit can materialize whenever she so wills. Mario can jump very high, somehow. Sonic can run at the speed of sound without breaking his legs or passing out. I think you understand the idea. Now, let’s say that Mario was hit by Samus’ Plasma Beam. He’s not surviving that. He has never demonstrated the ability to, but more importantly, he’ll die in lava.

Then we have Link. In OoT, he can get hit by an Iron Knuckle’s axe and still survive. Does this mean that he won’t die by getting struck by an axe? No. It’s simply a game mechanic. There is no proof Link has superhuman durability outside of what is shown during game play. Game mechanics aren’t proof. It doesn’t tell us how dense Link’s skin is. This is what I brought up in my OP, and this is why I introduced different kinds of durability.



Please provide proof that the parasol is unbreakable. At least with a fictional character like Captain America’s shield or Tony Stark’s powered armor, we have a reason as to why these two can take so many hits and not die. As far as I am aware, the only thing you have for Peach’s parasol as “proof” is a game mechanic. There is no instruction manual, no in-game information, such as onscreen or inventory data, no dialogue, and no proof from interviews. If there is, then perhaps you can provide it and show me.

As for your other examples, which are still based on your misunderstanding of my position, I’ll disregard them. Does Pikachu have super dense skin? If yes, prove it. Will Samus’ powered armor fall apart or fail if Zelda taps it? I doubt that, considering she’s dealt with the powerful Hyper Beam from Mother Brain, which is scripted. Zelda’s tap would need a lot more force than that. You can also stand by the idea that the no-limits fallacy is allowed for Peach’s parasol, but all you are doing is standing by a logical fallacy that is as clear as day. No one will accept it, and the argument fails.



You are correct that things will need to be assumed if this is to work. And of course, there is no point to stress about the differences of law, nature, and logic if you or I do not know the differences in the first place, unless otherwise stated. For example, let us consider fire. How is fire produced? What is necessary for it to be made? In order to produce fire, you need oxygen, heat, and fuel. Do we really need to ask how fire can be created in any of these different universes?

On the other hand, if you or I stepped on a planet that had greater gravity than 1 g (standard Earth gravity), then we would notice the difference. And if the g’s were increased, we could possibly kill ourselves, as our heart would have to pump more blood at a faster rate, as well as have denser bone to support ourselves in this new environment. Samus Aran is a notable character in this regard. Without the Power Suit, she can lift 86 tons. This is based on two things that were supported from in-game and the official Metroid Prime website.

The information about planet Zebes, which Samus was raised on, has the mass of 4.8 trillion teratons and the diameter of 11,700 km. It is greater than Earth’s mass, but smaller in diameter compared to Earth, which is around the 12,000 km. range. With these numbers, the calculation for g’s can be made, and when they are made, Samus is on a planet that is 865.5 times greater in g versus Earth. So, if she was placed in standard Earth g, she can lift 86 tons without the Power Suit

While I do find this dubious, as I think Retro Studios meant something else, the numbers are accurate, and this does tell us something about the Metroid Universe. So, even if a character from a different universe with laws and all that stuff are different from another’s, it doesn’t matter. All characters will be on a battlefield that is equal to all things of Earth’s, i.e., same g, same laws, same logic, &c. If you want to argue against that, then be ready to present your proof that the other universes are different.

This isn’t about people creating magic out of nowhere. That’s fiction, and I’m sure we all know that. How Link produces a flame on his Fire Arrow is unknown. The answer for that is magic. Does it need the three things a flame needs? Yes. It ceases to function in water when water approaches a flame. Remember, heat is needed for fire to exist. In MP, when Samus uses the Flamethrower, she cannot use it underwater. It’s the same law, and it can be safely assumed as such, since the creators, unless otherwise specified, put what they knew into a video game.

This is also found in Majora’s Mask. Water can be frozen with the Ice Arrows, and they can be melted, such as when Link is going to fight Ghot. In Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, the Ice Missile will freeze the hot Fuel Gel. I can offer numerous examples, but I don’t think it’s really necessary, as I am sure you comprehend what I am saying. If you still don’t like the idea of assumptions unless otherwise stated, then you are more than welcome to ignore my thread and that will be the end of that.

Also, next time if you think that threads fail because of assumptions for something like this, then apparently you have never heard of FactPile.



I still don’t understand what point you were trying to make.



Yes, quite vague, and unless the character demonstrates this incredible power you speak of, it really doesn’t help you, or me, or anyone else.



Some may disagree? What about your perspective on who the strongest incarnation of Link is? Perhaps you can offer some explanation.

As for Link being this “everliving soul,” where is the evidence for this? We know that Link in The Wind Waker wasn’t the same Link, as even the Great Deku Tree found out.



Well, the goddesses from the different universes are restricted to their own universe, and one cannot usurp the other.



And the three goddesses are also fictitious characters, and they do not exist in the universe of Fire Emblem.



Then you have the irresistible force versus the immovable object, which is illogical and unrealistic. The force would require infinite force, and the object would require infinite mass. The thing is, we don’t know what kind of resistance was given to these characters. So the point about Ganondorf and Ike being able to survive a nuclear explosion with no ill-effects afterward is unknown.



That’s an impossibility. Which god has power over the other? One god claims to be all-powerful. So does the other god. One must have all power, or both must have some power.



And this is not so for Ganondorf or Ike, as neither goddess provided protection for them.



A tautological statement helps neither you, nor me. And yes, I can say that omnipotence has limits. I’m sure you are aware of the paradox: Can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it? A better one may be, Can God make himself cease to exist? If yes, how does he return if he is non-existent? If no, then he has a limit. Your understanding of “omnipotence” seems to be absolute, in which case it’s illogical. If you are saying that this omnipotence is only capable of doing things that are logical, then there are still limits.



I didn’t miss the point. Summoning someone is a synergistic (requires two persons) thing. If I summon the President to leave the White House, he is not dependent on me or my summoning. He can ignore my summoning. He is his own sentience. Summoning is not power. These demons that Kinzo seems to be summoning appear out of nowhere. The power is not Kinzo’s but the demons he summons. These demons seem to lack autonomy, making them no better than an AI with preprogrammed commands.



Has it ever demonstrated the ability to grant any wish?



And there is no reason to believe it would not.



So they are not omnipotent?



So is the Star Rod the source of omnipotence?



A win is when the character dies or is removed from the battlefield. But, then again, this isn’t just how this thread works. This thread is mostly focused on what a character has done. In other words, if you have a character who hasn’t demonstrated some kind of physical strength, speed, or durability, and if the other character shows better versatility, then the one who is lacking is apparently not the winner. Unless of course the character has a trick up his or her sleeve, like stopping time.



You said she guides this, so I don’t see how that’s durability. This just shows that Rosalina destroyed and recreated an entire universe in the Mario Universe. I cannot see this for myself, as I cannot use YouTube on this computer. I could only see this for myself when I return home within about two weeks. You are more than welcome to leave a video for this.



Let me put it this way for you. Let’s say Link is going to use a Fire Arrow on Samus. Well, Samus has already dealt with enemies that are capable of producing flames, and while her energy shield drains, she doesn’t die. What I have always wondered was this. What is the difference between natural fire and fire produced by magic or pyrokinesis?



Well, Pikachu is made of flesh, correct? If it is, Pikachu will bleed. The alloy the Master Sword is made out of is unknown, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was iron or steel, two kinds of metals in the Zelda Universe.



Ah, but what Navi is doing is a part of the dialogue. The Great Deku Tree tells Navi to help Link and guide him. That’s what she does. When Link approaches a block, she tells him that he must move it, and instructs him on how. Of course, in-game dialogue tells Link to hold the “A” button and push. This is interconnected with the story.

Since you’re talking about the Shaydes, I would like to see the dialogue where the idea of lives was suggested in a way in which a Shayde has ever had more than one life. It would seem that the word “Game” refers to those who are alive, while “Game Over” means death.

Either way, lives are a game mechanic. If I am not mistaken, Super Paper Mario does not have something called “lives,” in the sense that 1-ups were used as they were previous Mario titles. Upon losing a life, the character simply starts over from the beginning if he or she has lost all of his or her lives, or from a checkpoint if that exists within the game.



Perhaps I cannot say such of an alien biology, but I don't see any reason to believe Kirby's skin is immune to this or that attack.



This is not an argument.



You can explain the inconsistencies to make them consistent? Yes, if you apply game mechanics or plot armor.



The audience Pokémon is aimed for children, correct? This has nothing to do with power. Those Pokémon can be the most powerful beings in the universe. No, this has to do with the audience. Pokémon is aimed for a younger audience and family. Like Disney, they won’t show blood. Mario, Samus, Link, Captain Falcon, these characters don’t expel dung from their bowels because we haven’t seen them do it, correct? Even this isn’t appropriate for these games.



And they don’t crap. Kirby may be a special case.



Based on the storyline and her feats, yes. Even Adam Malkovich calls her a “galactic savior” in Metroid: Other M.



So you better whip out those biology books pertaining to Pokémon. Not seeing them bleed isn’t going to cut it, correct? That’s an argument from ignorance.



The universe Snake is in is located on planet Earth.



I didn’t say that. We’re ignoring this aspect of a magical satchel, as I said Link is not exempt from this, i.e., not excused. But hey…

http://www.zeldadungeon.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/itemsthelegendofzelda.png



I still fail to see the relevance of a character’s height.



John Malkovich? Is that a combination of John 117 and Adam Malkovich? Anyway, Samus doesn’t get to use her ship. I am not using MP3 incarnation, and the Metroid Fusion incarnation can be controlled by Adam, a sentient being. Samus doesn’t get to use that ship unless she controls it herself.



You’re talking about an army, not physical strength, which I ask of when I speak of strength. And yes, the leader’s forces may shoot you down after you gunned down the leader. However, if this was a battle between you and the leader of country X, then you would be the winner.



I suppose I’d have to come up with a reason as to why these characters are fighting each other. Let’s say that coward Luigi finds out that he had suffered from amnesia, and he never actually recovered. He learns that Mario was banging Luigi’s wife, Peach. He finds out about this and he no longer is cowardly. He really wants to kick Mario’s ***. Of course, I am aiming for who has better feats. If Mario has better feats than Luigi, Mario wins.



Maybe we could do one with Giygas vs. Mother Brain on what their plans are and who they have controlled and ordered to do their bidding.



I cannot see the video, so I am going to make the assumption that this has to do with Falcon using a Falcon Punch on Black Shadow. The problem here is that the huge explosion was not caused by Falcon. It was caused by a faulty reactor. And unlike WiiWouldLikeTwoPlay's too generous of an idea that Falcon would be mid-tier, I doubt he'd reach even that.

i was waiting for a reply like that, lol the explosion WAS made by the falcon punch, not just the reactor, i watched the anime too and if it was created by the reactor then why did it took like 3 minutes to explode? and if you look closely the falcon punch scene you see something like a falling star exploding, that falling star was captain falcon draging black shadow to the center of the reactor with his falcon punch, it exploded because both reached the center of the reactor making rick wheeler go "KYAPUTIN FARUKON!" then black shadow went"BBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRUUUUUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" and the reactor ended to explode and blowing up half the universe, even if captain falcon is not as aepic he already is, he deserves to be high tier, don´t look characters just because their powers and abilities, look at how popular in the smash comunity they are and what influence they has, sonic is easily one of the most hated chars, so falcon should be tied high with sonic or at least under sonic but still at the high tier place, so yeah...all your points has been destryed.

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

I don't see what popularity has to do with this at all.

 

[Crystanium]

i was waiting for a reply like that, lol the explosion WAS made by the falcon punch, not just the reactor,

Then you're the only one who says this.

i watched the anime too and if it was created by the reactor then why did it took like 3 minutes to explode?

Because it had a time limit? The video that is commonly shown is Falcon using his Falcon Punch, and then the scene switches over to space and shows a huge explosion. Without context, one would assume it was caused by the Falcon Punch.

and if you look closely the falcon punch scene you see something like a falling star exploding, that falling star was captain falcon draging black shadow to the center of the reactor with his falcon punch, it exploded because both reached the center of the reactor making rick wheeler go "KYAPUTIN FARUKON!" then black shadow went"BBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRUUUUUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" and the reactor ended to explode and blowing up half the universe,

Half of the universe was not destroyed. The whole purpose of the Falcon Punch was to prevent Black Shadow from escaping. Besides, even if we assumed that the Falcon Punch could cause such destruction, it wouldn't put Falcon at the top of the list, seeing as how he dies in the process.

even if captain falcon is not as aepic he already is, he deserves to be high tier, don´t look characters just because their powers and abilities, look at how popular in the smash comunity they are and what influence they has, sonic is easily one of the most hated chars, so falcon should be tied high with sonic or at least under sonic but still at the high tier place, so yeah...all your points has been destryed.

Popularity has no saying on a character's feats and versatility. As for my points being "destroyed," um, no. My points haven't even been scratched.

 

[CaptainFalcon9000]

As for my points being "destroyed," um, no. My points haven't even been scratched.

neither mines, also you can compare all videogame characters all you want but you know captain falcon still wins, if not the he will kill everyone with his plasma gun he has never used. and another question...do you have girlfriend? you keep wrting stupidly long responses and stay logged for too long, do you have life? i do, i has a girlfriend so i don´t have time to play videogames (the last time i played a videogame was like 3 months ago) i post in the smash forums because i know about the smash games but seriously, don´t let videogames eat your life and go out more.

NOTE: i´m not trolling, just giving you a tip on how to have controll with your videogame adiction.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In b4 _clinton.

 

[Rychu]

neither mines, also you can compare all videogame characters all you want but you know captain falcon still wins, if not the he will kill everyone with his plasma gun he has never used. and another question...do you have girlfriend? you keep wrting stupidly long responses and stay logged for too long, do you have life? i do, i has a girlfriend so i don´t have time to play videogames (the last time i played a videogame was like 3 months ago) i post in the smash forums because i know about the smash games but seriously, don´t let videogames eat your life and go out more.

NOTE: i´m not trolling, just giving you a tip on how to have controll with your videogame adiction.

**** alert

Quit trolling and posting in this thread, if you're not going to0 contribute to discussion, jerk

 

[WiiWouldLikeTwoPlay]

I don't see what popularity has to do with this at all.

Precisely because it doesn't have anything to do with this at all.

@Dryn: Sorry, it will be a bit before I can manage a response to your earlier post. Though I'd like to request something: for the sake of the ridiculous size these posts are reaching (especially due to how obnoxious quoting them can be, as has been seen) and the time and effort they consume, would it bother you if I instead narrowed my focus and responded to one/two issue(s) at a time?

@CaptainFalcon9000: Some might say you're a troll, some might say you're just moron… But don't worry, they're wrong. You're both. And given that neither are acceptable, don't expect this to be tolerated.

This person warrants no response whatsoever, so let's move on. As mentioned, it will be a short while before I can keep up with the many other ongoing arguments, so for the sake of refreshing some actual intelligent discussion:
—"Strength" is described as 'The ability to lift an object over one's head.' This seems a bit open for interpretation. Is this physical strength? Telekinetic beings, for example, can exert physical force without physical means. And why is this the only indication of strength?
—How is this going to work for a character like GLaDOS? Her 'body' exists in the form of a massive reconstructable facility that is several miles across, entirely self-sustaining, and deep underground. She can freely use this facility as she pleases, it being her 'body' (and referred to as such).