Can we talk before we try to make a ruleset for this game?

[El Duderino]

You know what I'm sick of hearing with the whole item debate? The belief that after 3 games we just haven't experimented enough to reach some new enlightenment on the subject. Yes, like Brawl was, Smash 4 will be a new game, but by now all of us should have a good grasp of the mainstay items:

We know how they work, how they factor into match outcomes, and in the worst cases, how they can be abused, heal, or relating to containers, spawn mid attack and explode. Before we even begin to get into the random factor there are a number of issues the items themselves present. It all gets swept under the rug though whenever people choose to instead argue for their competitive potential. That is a whole separate topic for another day that does not address why they are banned or how the scene came to the current rules over time.

Realistically, Smash 4 would have to introduce more ways to balance to the item equation for them to go anywhere with the tournament scene.

 

[grizby2]

Hole is a basketball court means it's busted. Try another line of thinking.


And most people don't think Videogames are a sport. You'd get far more respect playing professional poker than professional Smash. An opinion.



This is still not a good argument. A lose is a lose. How you feel about it doesn't justify the rule set.

I'm being pretty harsh here, but the point I'm making is that the ruleset needs to be based on a logical system. How people feel and opinions are not justifiable. What the community needs to do is about a criteria for when something is broken and how to test if something is broken.

you just won't let me go will you SmashChu?
logic is based off of what we know to be correct, and even that can change over time. but i doubt smash 4 will be THAT much different.
i see your points and logic, but im gonna respectfully stick to mine.

 

[Orngeblu]

Really, the idea every other FGC uses: only ban when proven game breaking" should just be applied to smash.

I'd love to see them throw items into those fighting games, and then they'll cry broken.

I'd be up for the banning of BROKEN items, and having non-broken ones stay.

Really, people should just test stages and items and prove they cause a problem with solid facts before they are banned.

Stages weren't tested? I'm pretty sure they were. Unless you mean Melee...then I don't know about that.

 

[Orngeblu]

Edit: Oops.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'd love to see them throw items into those fighting games, and then they'll cry broken.

I'd be up for the banning of BROKEN items, and having non-broken ones stay.



Stages weren't tested? I'm pretty sure they were. Unless you mean Melee...then I don't know about that.

Not all stages were, though most that weren't really were obviously ban worthy (75m, Temple, New Pork City, etc.)

But a lot of places didn't test "borderline stages", mostly it was the fact stages weren't thuroughly tested, or some data on testing was ignored. This isn't just for stages like Picto Chat or Luigi's Mansion, this includes things like Final Destination where despite tons of data showing it is a terrible choice as a starter stage, was never made into a counterpick.

 

[Orngeblu]

Not all stages were, though most that weren't really were obviously ban worthy (75m, Temple, New Pork City, etc.)

But a lot of places didn't test "borderline stages", mostly it was the fact stages weren't thuroughly tested, or some data on testing was ignored. This isn't just for stages like Picto Chat or Luigi's Mansion, this includes things like Final Destination where despite tons of data showing it is a terrible choice as a starter stage, was never made into a counterpick.

Ah, I see. In my opinion, I'd ban Luigi's Mansion. It can be abused, I am sure. Like for instance, infinite Utilting? But, that can be tech'd...only if people know to tech, I do know now that I've played Project: M thoroughly, lol. Just a theory, but the stage does need to be tested.

I think Picto is fine as well, I mean...Halberd has hazards half way into the stage, but I guess Picto would be a bit worse than Halberd, and halberd is a counter-pick right?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Ah, I see. In my opinion, I'd ban Luigi's Mansion. It can be abused, I am sure. Like for instance, infinite Utilting? But, that can be tech'd...only if people know to tech, I do now that I've played Project: M thoroughly, lol. Just a theory, but the stage does need to be tested.

Oh yeah, a ton of borderline stages were there for a reason no doubt. I still support the idea of testing though, you never know what you will find.

 

[Orngeblu]

Oh yeah, a ton of borderline stages were there for a reason no doubt. I still support the idea of testing though, you never know what you will find.

I edited that...WHY DID YOU POST SO EARLY!? >:I

But yeah, needs testing.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I edited that...WHY DID YOU POST SO EARLY!? >:I

XD Sorry about that, but Halberd is a CP depending on region yes.

 

[DakotaBonez]

The time for talk is over...

DEER SUPLEX

 

[κomıc]

Let's play on all stages with all hazards. Survival of the fittest. If you can't handle Viridi dropping a Reset Bomb on you, then quit Smash Bros. and go play Ultra Street Fighter 4.

 

[BaPr]

imagine theres gonna be a few new basketball courts in the neighborhood and you find out that one of them has 1-foot deep holes that appear out of the ground at random.

I wouldn't choose not to play because it would ruin the game. I would choose not to play there until someone exorcises that place. What kinda place would do that?! I know it was just an example, but imagining that would be as creepy as the villager going through my T.V. screen like in "the ring"

 

[RODO]

Seeing as we've had 3 smash games being played competitively without items, I think it will be hard to change at this point. When you think about it anyway, even if you turned off the items you think would be a hindrance, there probably wouldn't even be enough items left to be worth it.

 

[BaPr]

Seeing as we've had 3 smash games being played competitively without items, I think it will be hard to change at this point. When you think about it anyway, even if you turned off the items you think would be a hindrance, there probably wouldn't even be enough items left to be worth it.

Yeah, I doubt people will want items back on. Which is exactly why I hope Final Smashes are able to be charged intsead of needing the Smash Ball.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yeah, I doubt people will want items back on. Which is exactly why I hope Final Smashes are able to be charged intsead of needing the Smash Ball.

The other issue with the Final Smash was that they were simply unbalanced. The two we've seen so far, Miss Fit and Samus' appear to be relatively strong, but not blatantly OP Final Smashes.

 

[BaPr]

The other issue with the Final Smash was that they were simply unbalanced. The two we've seen so far, Miss Fit and Samus' appear to be relatively strong, but not blatantly OP Final Smashes.

Samus's FS looks like it will last longer, but only attack in one direction
Wii Fit's has way better range, but seems to be shorter.

It seems they are already getting to balancing it. My dream of charged up FS's is coming true! Also, Sakurai probably doesn't want this fighting game to be like other fighting games, so charging it up might not happen.