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Can we talk about Ryuga's Ike?

MitoRequiem

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
48
I dunno if anyone was watching Youmacon but holy moly Ryuga's Ike is amazing http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/584573996?t=4h45m38s There are more sets but I linked it to the Keitaro Vs Ryuga part cause I feel like a lot of people have been saying she's braindead broken and some MUs are unwinnable against her.

P.S.(Saw no videothread so I apologize if I posted this in the wrong place I blame 5:41AM if theres actually a video thread...)
 

Doomedo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
6
Keitaro seemed really uncomfortable with prism tower. He almost never tried to grab the platform ledge. Instead he was going for the upper platforms, which made it easy for Ryuga to punish.

What I really want to talk about though is that grand finals match. What tools does Ike have against Diddy?
 

Planet God Venus

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None **** that character. Wait untill WiiU when we can actually use bananas. We can't atm.
 

Nysyarc

Last King of Hollywood
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There's a solid Diddy player in my region who just won our last local and I've played him pretty extensively. It's a rough match-up, you have to put in quite a bit more work and play really safe a lot of the time. You need to be really careful about air-dodging after being thrown or hit upwards, especially when thrown upwards at high percent. Diddy's follow-ups are guaranteed at low percents but at kill percent they're not, so instead he can bait an air dodge and then Uair for the KO, as seen on Ryuga's first stock game 1. You can't challenge his Uair with your Dair though so just maneuver around it and get back to neutral.

If you get him off-stage try to read the side-B recovery, it's pretty easy to smack him out of it with a Fair, Bair or even Ftilt if you know it's coming or can bait it by running towards the ledge and then retreating. Throwing out Nairs to bait approaches or to pressure isn't as safe in this match-up as many others, I've found just staying grounded and tossing out an occasional Jab 1 or empty jump to be less punishable, plus staying grounded allows you to pivot grab rolls behind you.

Most important imo is to try and keep him above you once you have him in the air or on platforms, it's tricky because of his movement speed but his options for attacking downwards in the air are much more limited than everything else he has. Put the fear in him with a Uair and then empty jump next time to bait an air dodge into the stage, free punish.
 
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Planet God Venus

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There's a solid Diddy player in my region who just won our last local and I've played him pretty extensively. It's a rough match-up, you have to put in quite a bit more work and play really safe a lot of the time. You need to be really careful about air-dodging after being thrown or hit upwards, especially when thrown upwards at high percent. Diddy's follow-ups are guaranteed at low percents but at kill percent they're not, so instead he can bait an air dodge and then Uair for the KO, as seen on Ryuga's first stock game 1. You can't challenge his Uair with your Dair though so just maneuver around it and get back to neutral.

If you get him off-stage try to read the side-B recovery, it's pretty easy to smack him out of it with a Fair, Bair or even Ftilt if you know it's coming or can bait it by running towards the ledge and then retreating. Throwing out Nairs to bait approaches or to pressure isn't as safe in this match-up as many others, I've found just staying grounded and tossing out an occasional Jab 1 or empty jump to be less punishable, plus staying grounded allows you to pivot grab rolls behind you.

Most important imo is to try and keep him above you once you have him in the air or on platforms, it's tricky because of his movement speed but his options for attacking downwards in the air are much more limited than everything else he has. Put the fear in him with a Uair and then empty jump next time to bait an air dodge into the stage, free punish.
zinoto be that best diddy in the US though. sorry i couldnt beat that at this moment. lololol
 

MitoRequiem

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
48
I dunno, If Ike IS the worst character in this game then it shows how balanced the game is, I personally think he's okay. I'm really confused why Ryuga didn't use Aether 2(Maybe Side B is a better recovery like 100% of the time I dunno) and Paralyzing Counter(Though that'd probably be bad in most MUs but if it hits it's a free F-Smash) I personally don't know too much about Ike he's just one of my "for fun" characters, but it is nice to see people out there sticking with him.
 

-RedX-

Smash Lord
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Sep 9, 2009
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Most players who practice on wifi don't get to practice customs unless they arrange it with friends. Even so, that's not a very large group of players to practice with. So then you try out ladder matches/wifi tournies. Doesn't help that there's no indicator to show if your opponent is using equipment or not so customs end up being banned because they aren't seperated from equipment. So with all that, you end up playing default characters the most and it becomes comfortable.
This is the case for me and I assume for many others as well.
 
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MitoRequiem

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
48
Most players who practice on wifi don't get to practice customs unless they arrange it with friends. Even so, that's not a very large group of players to practice with. So then you try out ladder matches/wifi tournies. Doesn't help that there's no indicator to show if your opponent is using equipment or not so customs end up being banned because they aren't seperated from equipment. So with all that, you end up playing default characters the most and it becomes comfortable.
This is the case for me and I assume for many others as well.
There actually is an indicator for equipment, theres a little circle that shows colors of what equipment you're using if it's blank that means no equipment is on you
 

Mario766

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I dunno, If Ike IS the worst character in this game then it shows how balanced the game is, I personally think he's okay. I'm really confused why Ryuga didn't use Aether 2(Maybe Side B is a better recovery like 100% of the time I dunno) and Paralyzing Counter(Though that'd probably be bad in most MUs but if it hits it's a free F-Smash) I personally don't know too much about Ike he's just one of my "for fun" characters, but it is nice to see people out there sticking with him.
He was using a really neat trick on stages to use Aether 1 like Aether 2, but he has a better vertical recovery to work with. A lot of the time Ryuga would go under stages, Aether, and have the sword poke them from almost halfway in Battlefield, like Aether 2 does. The downside to using Aether 2 like this is that you're forced onto the stage. Aether 1 doesn't have that problem.

The commentators said he was using a custom Counter, but it was never used in a match so we don't actually know. I'm pretty sure however that you can't get a guaranteed smash off it. I think the best you can get off Counter 2 is a grab or a jab combo. The main thing to look at was his way of approaching and his excellent use of foxtrotting into either a roll cancelled grab, dash grab or pivot grabs/jabs. He also made great use of turn-around jabs and cross-up aerials to space out opponents. On WIFI you can punish people that dash through you with turn-around jab. The only thing I saw from the matches Ryuga played was him getting punished by Greninja for using Jab 3, which won't work without rage and he was getting grabbed for free. I didn't really see anything else but the way he played against Chibo was excellent, kept the space close-mid range and pulled out a nasty 69 damage chain from just a throw -> F-Air. The commentators are kinda incorrect most of the time, Ike's aerials are guaranteed unless Ike miss-reads DI or messes up his jumps.
 

Planet God Venus

Smash Journeyman
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Most players who practice on wifi don't get to practice customs unless they arrange it with friends. Even so, that's not a very large group of players to practice with. So then you try out ladder matches/wifi tournies. Doesn't help that there's no indicator to show if your opponent is using equipment or not so customs end up being banned because they aren't seperated from equipment. So with all that, you end up playing default characters the most and it becomes comfortable.
This is the case for me and I assume for many others as well.
I also don't play vs random people on wifi, It's more of people from Michigan so I see the use of customs alot. I just don't like them lool.
 

Hayzie

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I think he's good, but not amazing. Also coming back to the platform using his Side Special and removing a stock from Keitaro, then standing up back on the platform and teabagging means You'll Get No Sympathy From Me, Ryuga. Douche.

I feel like Keitaro got ripped off from Prism Tower both times.
 

EvilShadow777

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Even if the final stock of that match was decided by keitaro misreading his jump since he was unfamiliar with Prism Tower you can't ignore Ryuga's results. He was generating lots of % on Keitaro off of every read he got so it was potentially anyone's match up but Ryuga ended up showing as the better player.

And even considering the scenario being in Ryuga's favor doesn't mean he "ripped off" the match, both players had stages that were in their favor the whole series. He managed to climb to 2nd place for a reason.
 

MitoRequiem

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
48
@ Planet God Venus Planet God Venus So, What is your overall opinion of Ike in this game? and this is a bit off-topic/random I guess but do you think Shulk is better than Ike?
 
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Zatchiel

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I want to give Ryuga a big hug for doing so well~ <3

You got punished a lot for over-committing with n-air from what I saw in your set with Keitaro. Be mindful of its range, since throwing it out and having it shielded usually left you directly in front of him for a grab. Just go for spacing it better more often when you use it. Also, whenever you landed a n-air at mid percents and tried to follow up with a f-air, he kept reacting with an airdodge and you didn't seem to adapt to that. Chasing him down with a u-air or just baiting the airdodge for something else would've done you wonders with how abundantly he was dodging to escape your aerial pressure.
 
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-RedX-

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Nair -> Fair is true combo at mid percents. So he was just a little slow on the followups if any of them were airdodged.
 

Zatchiel

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Nair -> Fair is true combo at mid percents. So he was just a little slow on the followups if any of them were airdodged.
Can't recall seeing him land it more than once or twice throughout the entire set so that was probably the case. Still, I think he could've gotten some other solid punishes from reading the airdodge since Keitaro was using them to avoid his f-air follow up so often. Perhaps a b-air or up smash.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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Part of it may be because of staling. It's easier to do a turnaround then bair if they didn't go very high and that will true combo as well. You really only need uair to punish the air dodge since it covers the full duration and if you land it near the ground, that leads to another aerial.
 

Ike Tyson

Smash Rookie
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Sep 26, 2014
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Not only did he beat Rosalina but he ran through Chiibo R.O.B and handled ESEV Greninja. He beat some of the top players mains with a character that's considered the worst among the community.
 

CupofT

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Since we are on the discussion of Ryuga: in this match and at this part

http://youtu.be/o-uIRsyNZ0o?t=8m3s

how does he grab the ledge like that? Like he rolled off the ledge. I saw another video where someone else did that as well. I don't understand how to grab ledge like that. I would like to learn how to do this. Any thoughts or is there a thread/post about it? Thank you friends
 

Nysyarc

Last King of Hollywood
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Since we are on the discussion of Ryuga: in this match and at this part

http://youtu.be/o-uIRsyNZ0o?t=8m3s

how does he grab the ledge like that? Like he rolled off the ledge. I saw another video where someone else did that as well. I don't understand how to grab ledge like that. I would like to learn how to do this. Any thoughts or is there a thread/post about it? Thank you friends
That's how you would ledge hog in Brawl, basically just run/walk off the stage and quickly input a fast-fall then pull back towards the stage. It's quick but it easily becomes muscle memory. Useful to be able to do for a lot of edge-guarding situations.
 

CupofT

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I'm going to use the "I didn't play brawl at a higher level" john. Thank you for the response. Will work on it starting next time I open my 3DS. I guess I can also try it in Brawl if I am having difficulty with execution (read try with GC controller).
 

Planet God Venus

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I want to give Ryuga a big hug for doing so well~ <3

You got punished a lot for over-committing with n-air from what I saw in your set with Keitaro. Be mindful of its range, since throwing it out and having it shielded usually left you directly in front of him for a grab. Just go for spacing it better more often when you use it. Also, whenever you landed a n-air at mid percents and tried to follow up with a f-air, he kept reacting with an airdodge and you didn't seem to adapt to that. Chasing him down with a u-air or just baiting the airdodge for something else would've done you wonders with how abundantly he was dodging to escape your aerial pressure.

Rosa's my fav MU. If he didn't have customs I don't think I would have lost on FD.
 

Nysyarc

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I'm going to use the "I didn't play brawl at a higher level" john. Thank you for the response. Will work on it starting next time I open my 3DS. I guess I can also try it in Brawl if I am having difficulty with execution (read try with GC controller).
No problem. One other thing to note if you're going to practice it in Smash 4 is that the new ledge mechanics prevent you from re-grabbing the ledge for a short time after dropping from it or climbing/jumping back onto the stage. So if you seem to be not getting it consistently despite doing the exact same inputs, that could be the problem. Just wait a few seconds between attempts.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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It warms my soul seeing that a "bottom tier" character such as Ike is able to beat "top tier" ones such as Rosalina, showing that it's mostly up to the player. I think they did a great job achieving balance in this game, not saying that balance updates wouldn't be welcome.
 

AN(M)ist

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It warms my soul seeing that a "bottom tier" character such as Ike is able to beat "top tier" ones such as Rosalina, showing that it's mostly up to the player. I think they did a great job achieving balance in this game, not saying that balance updates wouldn't be welcome.
More than Rosalina, I'd say Diddy is what is top tier and hardest for Ike to fight against. Rosalina is still bearable, but Diddy feels like such a chore. I'd really appreciate if they do a balace patch and tone down diddy a bit, he's going bananas (pun intended).
 
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Planet God Venus

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More than Rosalina, I'd say Diddy is what is top tier and hardest for Ike to fight against. Rosalina is still bearable, but Diddy feels like such a chore. I'd really appreciate if they do a balace patch and tone down diddy a bit, he's going bananas (pun intended).
rosa sucks
 
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