Can the Physics engine be that different?

[Corax]

okay I've played smash alot and know alot of the advanced techs, but my friend on the other hand refuses to do anything labled "advanced". All he does actually is whine how unfair wavedashing is for being a glitch and how much he'll be able to beat people in SSBB when all the advanced techs of smash are either taken out or nerfed by a new physics engine which would render advanced play to the way the game should be played.
He also thinks shine spiking won't exist or will be easily countered cause its cheap.

I doubt the physics engine can be so different that all of the advanced techs and things we hold dearly in smash will be changed. Plus he's only whiny cause he chose Roy against my marth.

*shrugs* he wouldn't be so whiny about smash if he took the time to learn the advanced techs instead of thinking he can go through the entire game without putting any practice into it.

 

[Takeshi245]

Here: www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/ This should help.

 

[BinAly]

Man, I have several friends that react at the Advanced T. in the same way...

I don't think Wavedashing and L-Canceling will be removed. There is a lot of pressure from Top Players in Japan to make Sakurai keep those.

 

[blayde_axel]

Well, from what I've seen, the Havok engine seems to fully encourage "slippage." Even the crates can wavedash now! lol. jk.

 

[Takeshi245]

Man, I have several friends that react at the Advanced T. in the same way...

I don't think Wavedashing and L-Canceling will be removed. There is a lot of pressure from Top Players in Japan to make Sakurai keep those.

You have any links? Anyway, if your friend doesn't listen, you can just keep beating him with advanced techniques and just maybe he may reconsider. One of the ways to make him better at this game is to know characters. For one, show him how badly Roy sucks at the game with your superior Marth since it seems that you're more skilled than your friend.

 

[Pika Pika Pi]

Translation: WTF, he's a scrub who doesn't train at exploiting the game for his SKILLZ. He sucks for playing Smash how Nintendo intended.

 

[Teh Uber Parachuter]

*shrugs* he wouldn't be so whiny about smash if he took the time to learn the advanced techs instead of thinking he can go through the entire game without putting any practice into it.

See, I really don't like that whole line of thought. To be honest, there are people who will never like the advanced techniques, just like there are those who wouldn't be caught dead with out them. Just because someone sits down, and learns to do all of these things doesn't mean that they'll be all ZOMG, I LUVZ IT! My experiences learning advanced techniques haven't taught me to appreciate them, I just do it to win. That is what many people may go through. So, aside from the extreme "**** ADVANCED TECHS!!!" Keep in mind that a lot of people just don't care about all of that, even if they could do it.

 

[Dither]

Translation: WTF, he's a scrub who doesn't train at exploiting the game for his SKILLZ. He sucks for playing Smash how Nintendo intended.

Not arguing about the top part, but I'm pretty sure the Tournament scene is a player creation, not created by Nintendo. I'm sure if you ask Nintendo, they intended the game to be played with 4 player free for alls, on all stages, with all items.

 

[MrBird]

Not another flame war, please.

 

[THK]

Not arguing about the top part, but I'm pretty sure the Tournament scene is a player creation, not created by Nintendo. I'm sure if you ask Nintendo, they intended the game to be played with 4 player free for alls, on all stages, with all items.

I doubt it. I bet they'll say to play it the way you want to play it. If you want to do 1v1s on FD all day with no items, go wild. If you want to do the previously mentioned, go wild. You buy the game, play it like how you want to.

As for the topic. Can it be that different? Perhaps, I can guarantee that the face of the game will change and it will play and feel quite differently.

As for the subject, my mindset is, if it's in the game, use it and abuse it. The only thing I don't condone are glitches and those are generally a pain in the *** to do and ultimately not worth it and end up banned anyway. Wavedashing to me is not a glitch it's an exploit. It's in there, but used to an effective nature. That's all well and good.

At the very least, every player should really learn L-canceling, back when I was a more casual player I did l-canceling religiously, I saw it's effectiveness but I never knew it was considered an advanced technique until coming upon the higher level scene.

 

[Thunderslf]

I think it was Nintendo intention that MOST people play with items on all stages, but they expected some people to go without items on a flat stage, which is why there was an item on and off switch. In my opinion, Smash was made with items and wacky stages in mind, with hardcore players as a second thought, which is why there so little stages that are as flat as Final Destination. But this "How Smash is ment to be played" argument is arbitrary and pointless, play it the way YOU want to play it is what I say.

 

[Takeshi245]

I think it was Nintendo intention that MOST people play with items on all stages, but they expected some people to go without items on a flat stage, which is why there was an item on and off switch. In my opinion, Smash was made with items and wacky stages in mind, with hardcore players as a second thought, which is why there so little stages that are as flat as Final Destination. But this "How Smash is ment to be played" argument is arbitrary and pointless, play it the way YOU want to play it is what I say.

In other words, casual players would play with items, and for the players that didn't like items, they gave them the opinion to turn it off to suit both types of players. That's the way I see it.

 

[Thunderslf]

Yes, there's no real way the game was intended to be played, it was made with a variety of options for a real. That's like saying when you play Oblivion (A non-linear RPG for the XBox 360 and PC, very good by the way) you HAVE to play as an Imperial Swordsmen. If the game gives you options to do or to not do something, there's no true way to play the game, and it's obvious that Nintendo wants YOU to play it the way YOU want to.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

but smash with items and all stages is too random to be a competative game. hence tournament rules.

ontopic: if your friend wants to win, hell do what he can to win. hes playing a game he dosent want to win obviously. your not playing unfair, your not breaking the rules of the game. end of story. its a game, not real life. "honor" is a concept for real life. because your life has infinity more variables in it than a game, and is much more important.

"cheap" "unfair" are cries of a sore loser, if the game is cheap and unfair in your opinion, learn to win or stop playing. thats honestly all you can tell him.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Actually I find it impossible to remove wavedashing unless if they remove air dodging.

I don't even see why you guys hate it so much. I'm a Jigglypuff player and I don't even use it. So if you think wavedashing is the only thing in your way of beating sombody that uses it I'll just play Jigglypuff and beat you just as easily.

My friend who is weaker than me is able to beat me in a fight because he abuses pressure points, its easy to do and it packs a punch, you can say its something that really shouldn't happen, would you call that cheating? Its the same issue with the wavedash, we may be abusing it, but its possible. Were not using AR to become Giga Bowser and kill you in one move, thats cheating.

Look if you don't really want to rely on advance techquices you should choose Jigglypuff. His wavedash dosn't help much, SHFFLing won't help either. All you really do is jump and B air constently, know how to do the rising pound, and get a rest combo when ever you can.

 

[GaryCXJk]

I doubt it. I bet they'll say to play it the way you want to play it. If you want to do 1v1s on FD all day with no items, go wild. If you want to do the previously mentioned, go wild. You buy the game, play it like how you want to.

So if you use the game to Frisbee with the disc?

 

[Jigglymaster]

So if you use the game to Frisbee with the disc?

You can if you want to.

Some people even buy a Gamecube or an X-Box just to drop it from the roof or expload it and record the results and post it on youtube. Once the consol you bought is out of the makers hands they don't care what you do with it.

Ever seen braniac?

Where they launch rockets at cars covered with oil and causes a big explosions. Well cars were meant to be driven, but apparently not to them. You can do what ever you want to with what ever you bought.

 

[Revven]

Well, I heard they were going to use the Havok physics engine. Which was also used in the game "Sonic The Hedgehog" for the 360/PS3. Don't know if that'll be able to fix the problem of Wavedashing but if L-canceling has taught us anything it's that Sakurai knows of these glitches.

Remember, L-canceling was also in SSB64 but in a different form (as the Z button, which was called Z-canceling). Then, it appeared again in Melee as L-canceling. Whether or not that tells us Wavedashing is in Brawl or not, isn't really known. But if the Havok physics engine fixes the problem of Air dodging into the ground at an angle then wavedashing is gone.

All I have to say is, at this point in time, it's not worth learning the Advanced Techs. for Brawl when they may not even exist in Brawl (at least the obvious ones will exist like teching). I just learned how to Wavedash myself and find it rather...not useful to me at this point (and could be removed from Brawl). I'd only improve on it if Wavedashing were to appear in Brawl, but beyond that, I don't need to at this point.

It'll probably definitely be radically different enough to remove Wavedashing if they're using a completely different physics engine this time around.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Musn't start a flame war...
Musn't start a flame war..
Musn't start a flame war...
Musn't start a flame war...
Musn't start a flame war...

Okay, I'm done. I've never played Crackdown or the Sonic games that use the Havok physics engine, nor do I know if Sakurai is completely aware of the WDing factor or not (one would assume he does) but what ever the case, due to the new skills they seem to giving us the ability to do, I think one way or another, it's going to work out just fine.

 

[blayde_axel]

It didn't look like Sonic 06 really used the engine too effectively... in fact, I think it made the game move a bit worse. But, hey, Smash looks good so far. Certain things actually move like they are supposed to be.

 

[Corax]

XD I should really show him that topic. It gets on my nerves though, cause all he ever does is rub it in my face that he WILL beat me in brawl cause my melee play will be useless.

The enging doens't look too bad, and I agree that the game is made to be friendly with everyone. It was afterall made to get nintendo lots and lots of cash. I'm starting to doubt the physics engine will be completely turned around though...
rephrase that, I'm hoping that it isn't cause smash seems fine now as it is. It just needs a graphics tune up.

 

[red stone]

yeah so i just read to playing to win thing and an interesting topic came up

"broken characters" apparently akuma is banned from use in tournament play

well i say that we ban falco, marth, fox, sheik, peach, and ice climbers because they are all really broken

 

[Sudai]

Red Stone, this isn't really the place to talk about that, but none of those characters have anything that's broken. They have no true infinates (save for the Ice Climber's wobble and most tournaments already ban that anyway), any of their "cheap" tactics can be countered with a bit of inginuety, and any of those characters can beat any of the others in that list. There's a reason they're top teir, yes, but none of the reasons are game breaking or force you to play a single way to win against them therefore they do not merit any banning.



On Topic:

If I recall correctly, early on I remember somewhere stating that HAL labs gave the new team the engine used for Melee and that Sakurai only intended to tweak it a bit. This may be way off base and I don't have a link handy, but hopefully me mentioning this will jog someone else's memory who does happen to have a link. If not, oh well.

 

[psicicle]

Actually I find it impossible to remove wavedashing unless if they remove air dodging.

Make it so that you stay in airdodge mode when you airdodge into the ground. Similar to what happens when you airdodge into a wall or ceiling. Bam, wavedash gone, all other physics of the game intact.

 

[knightpraetor]

I only play those top tier characters that you suggest banning, and the funny thing is, if all smash players voted on teh subject of banning I would vote for banning them.

Now some of you are probably asking why?

Are these characters cheap? Yes, but that is not a sufficient reason to ban them; honestly the reason we smash players play is because we believe at the top level of play there is true strategy and not just one abusable strategy. In fact top tier play is quite challenging and has many elegant matchups.

However, the reason i would vote in favor of a ban is i feel like the low tier tourneys would bring more variety and interesting gameplay to the game while the top tier arena feels almost played out.

Honestly i think that figuring out the balance of the lower tiers in tourney and having more competitive characters would contribute more to the game than the current top tier balance.

that said, the current top tier tourney arena is amazing...the fox falco laser game..and shine anti shield game..which forces other characters to work hard for those cheap *** chain grabs and then falcon's unique blend of speed that is horribly countered by space animals. Or sheik's game against marth that forces marth to be a lot more wary of throws..they're all very fun matchups. But more fun than the possible low tier tourneys we could be having?

Unfortunately everyone plays to win and so they learn the best character..as low tier tourneys aren't common there is little reason to learn those characters which in turn makes it unlikely for people to want to host them. It's sad but there's no real catalyst to really drive more players to try out low tier tourneys.

I really personally just wish that MLG and the other major tourney holders would host more low tier tourneys..if there was a 2000 dollar prize for winning a tourney that was low tier more people would practice it

 

[CStrife187]

I think low tier tourneys are pretty much dominated by luigi and link, so there would be less variety.

 

[Rx-]

I think that EVERYONE should practice AT's, and only use them once they are able to.

I love that article btw, I have showed it to most of my friends.

 

[WhiteZER0]

Jigglymaster, I'm sure with the right codes and tweaks, they could EASILY remove Wave Dashing and still include Air Dodging. There ain't that much that's hard about it (if you know what you're doing). From what we've seen in some videos, I would have to say it's momentum that's carrying the characters, not a wavedash.

 

[psicicle]

Jigglymaster, I'm sure with the right codes and tweaks, they could EASILY remove Wave Dashing and still include Air Dodging. There ain't that much that's hard about it (if you know what you're doing). From what we've seen in some videos, I would have to say it's momentum that's carrying the characters, not a wavedash.

go to post 24

 

[SmashChu]

Man, I have several friends that react at the Advanced T. in the same way...

I don't think Wavedashing and L-Canceling will be removed. There is a lot of pressure from Top Players in Japan to make Sakurai keep those.

But also pressure from the non-competative players. I think WD will be removed. It's a pretty big flaw in the game's programming. And developers don't like things like WD. It shows their flaws. L-Cancelling will probobly stay.

 

[Takeshi245]

But also pressure from the non-competative players. I think WD will be removed. It's a pretty big flaw in the game's programming. And developers don't like things like WD. It shows their flaws. L-Cancelling will probobly stay.

Z-cancelling was a flaw to the developers. They tweaked it a bit for L-cancelling. Wavedashing is using the character's traction from their air-dodging to slide. Nintendo already knows about wavedashing. I think they may tweak it a bit just like they did for L-cancelling and create new advanced techniques. Oh, and I think the reasons why non-competitive players complain about wavedashing is because they got beaten by someone for using it, was scolded by someone for not using it even by beating them, or just didn't like the way it flowed. They could've just gotten better, not care about what the opponent said, and/or just not use it and play with other people. That's the way I see it.

 

[Corax]

I agree cuase thats exactly how my friend is.

anyhow, i believe they might just nerf wavedashing a bit. Something like all the characters have the same wavedash or something like that.

 

[Kazuya]

Its not the Physics Engine.

Its the Physics of THE engine - one does not exist, the other does.

The physics is relatively the same, nothing seems to be taken out, only added in.

 

[Bli33ard]

From my personal experience, I don't use Advanced Techniques in SSBM. My friends don't eiter, but one friend in particular moans about low level things like "OMG, Mario is too overpowered!". Shocking. But back on topic. I think the physics will be so different that new techniques will be implemented into play - every game has it. It's like snaking for Mario Kart DS. People complain about it, yet there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[Sundown]

wtf... i meant to edit and it double posted... sorry read the post below

 

[Sundown]

Translation: WTF, he's a scrub who doesn't train at exploiting the game for his SKILLZ. He sucks for playing Smash how Nintendo intended.

Im sick of you fuking scrubs, go play the god dammed game "the way Nintendo intended" and stop posting in a competitive forum, ***** scrubs.

Noobs im allright with... we all were noobs once, but scrubs should just ***** die.

Jelous bas tards, thats all you idiots are, jelous bas tards that want to cut corners to get good and get mad because u imbeciles cant.

 

[THK]

Wow dude. Take it easy will you?

 

[Kazuya]

Im sick of you fuking scrubs, go play the god dammed game "the way Nintendo intended" and stop posting in a competitive forum, ***** scrubs.

Noobs im allright with... we all were noobs once, but scrubs should just ***** die.

Jelous bas tards, thats all you idiots are, jelous bas tards that want to cut corners to get good and get mad because u imbeciles cant.

Learn to spell, then go to the dictionary and look up the definition of the term "scrubs" - then look up the definition of "Sundown" - I'm pretty sure hypo-condriact is in there somewhere.

Lay off, we all have our own opinions. Respect them.

For instance, I now think of you as a "!#!" - respect that.

 

[Takeshi245]

Learn to spell, then go to the dictionary and look up the definition of the term "scrubs" - then look up the definition of "Sundown" - I'm pretty sure hypo-condriact is in there somewhere.

Lay off, we all have our own opinions. Respect them.

For instance, I now think of you as a "!#!" - respect that.

Tolerance is about respecting people, even if you don't argee with what they say and showing where their ideas that you disargee with go wrong.

 

[Superstar]

I don't respect the people that are scrubs.

Introducing the Scrub

Although I present logic rather than flaming to tremendous degrees. And Bli33ard, of course there will be techniques, but a good amount from Melee could very well stay, like from SSB to SSBM.