Can competitive play change?

[smashbrolink]

Quick question on the variable moves thing: In the SF games that did include this, was this present on every move or only select moves?

Would it matter either way so long as the random factor truly was present?

 

[Overswarm]

Item tournaments have worked competitively. The results of them have been parallel to those of non-item tournaments with nothing particularly surprising showing up. Including with smashballs.

You could say the same for FFA.

If the competitive scene were going to change though, it would likely be a ruleset style change. Less brackets, more pools. Pre-determined stages rather than standard CPs. Iron man 3-character sets rather than the standard CP system. Stuff like that.

Items could easily make a comeback, but it'd require some grassroots effort. It's not enough to say "let's play with items!", you'd have to run tournaments with items on.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Thank you, OS. I'm not even particularly concerned, honestly, by whether or not we actually end up using them, but I'm just sick and tired of people claiming that they don't work at all because whatever terrible arguments. If we choose not to use them, we choose not to use them, but we should admit that it's a choice, not try to hide behind some terribly applied Sirlin-esque bull****.

 

[[Corn]]

http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...d-for-a-side-project-huh-p-poll-in-op.164675/

You now have many, many pages of homework to do.

Your opinion, properly stated and based off of your posts, is "Because things that have uncontrollable factors of randomness should not be included, items are competitively invalid" (and in this context, "competitively invalid" == having no redeeming qualities for consideration in competition). Which is still wrong, because the first part, that "things that have uncontrollable factors of randomness should not be included", is also wrong, because as I said before, it ignores context. You don't see SF players complaining when moves do variable damage (and yes, some SF games have variable damage moves that are either slightly random or are hard / impossible to perfectly control the damage amount consistently). Random =/= bad. That's the whole point that you're ignoring out of convenience because it's easier to ignore context.

I value skill over luck in nearly every scenario. I have read the threads first few pages, and it does have some interesting points, but it doesnt adress that simply not having a normalized item spawn position/item timer increases the luck factor. I can see it being a middle ground for some, but I cant imagine wanting to sacrifice skill at all. If a mechanic adds randomness, it automatically detracts from skill.



In that SF you mentioned do they have the option to turn said variable damage off? Because that is a major thing for the comparison.

 

[Jack Kieser]

NO. Jesus, you're not getting it. This:

"If a mechanic adds randomness, it automatically detracts from skill."

Is simply not to be taken as given. It's not just true no matter what. IF that is true, then it follows that whatever. But, it is NOT simply true in all cases.

And, no, you can't turn it off.

EDIT: And you didn't even read it all... Jesus. There's no hope. "I get that you're making a complex argument that will require me to read a lot, but I got bored 3 pages in and decided to stop, so your argument is invalid."

 

[GP&B]

Would it matter either way so long as the random factor truly was present?

If it's not even a substantial sway, it's not a big deal if everything had it. But I was immediately thinking of moves like Peach's turnips. It's the only move in her moveset to have variable damage and you're the one in control of using it in the first place. I don't find the comparison works if it's only a few moves we're talking about. Items spawn regardless of what you do on the other hand.

But on the subject of ISP, there's a very heavy focus on items that don't provide major influence over the match and have their fair number of drawbacks. It's done in a way that provides an interesting element to matches without necessarily interfering with how it is played.

 

[[Corn]]

NO. Jesus, you're not getting it. This:

"If a mechanic adds randomness, it automatically detracts from skill."

Is simply not to be taken as given. It's not just true no matter what. IF that is true, then it follows that whatever. But, it is NOT simply true in all cases.

And, no, you can't turn it off.

EDIT: And you didn't even read it all... Jesus. There's no hope. "I get that you're making a complex argument that will require me to read a lot, but I got bored 3 pages in and decided to stop, so your argument is invalid."

I saw a hack, I saw randomness still being in, and I saw that people were willing to sacrfice skill in order to have a more varied gametype. Im the type of player who would rather be fighting a IC as Ganon rather then having the chance of my opponent having a beneficial item spawn next to them that has the ability to turn the match or give them the advantage.

I see the ruleset being used, but not nearly as much as just having them off due to many players thinking style.

As for the SF thing, If it cannot be turned off, it isnt relatable to this.

Name random things that add depth and skill in a competitive game. I cant exactly think of any off hand.

 

[-DR3W-]

This thread is ****ing yonkers.

 

[[Corn]]

This thread is ****ing yonkers.

Any thread like this is.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Exactly, which means you didn't even read it. I put the stage hacks in the OP for the same people who'd rather play P:M than vBrawl; all of those people complaining about the spawn locations could hack away the problem. They aren't a part of the ruleset.

The whole point of you reading it was to prove that randomness is not inherently bad. You want me to name a random thing that adds depth and skill? I linked you to two entire freaking threads on it. I already named it. YOU are ignoring it.

 

[[Corn]]

Exactly, which means you didn't even read it. I put the stage hacks in the OP for the same people who'd rather play P:M than vBrawl; all of those people complaining about the spawn locations could hack away the problem. They aren't a part of the ruleset.

The whole point of you reading it was to prove that randomness is not inherently bad. You want me to name a random thing that adds depth and skill? I linked you to two entire freaking threads on it. I already named it. YOU are ignoring it.

Im referring to just Brawl in everything I say, no hacks, no mods, just plain Brawl. Spawn locations are my #1 gripe with items followed by not knowing when they will spawn or what will.

You linked me to a thread specifying the benefits and negatives of using specific items. I understand some and disagree with others.

If I completely missed something that had proof that plain old brawl's items being predictable enough so that they can be acted upon before they spawn please enlighten me.

 

[peeup]

This thread is ****ing yonkers.

Yeahhh I think this thread got out of hand.

I'm not advocating for items to be introduced to gameplay. I'm not saying that items break gameplay.

I'm posing the idea that maybe tweaking the ruleset, or the way by which we create a competitive Brawl/Smash4 setting, could be changed for the better. Maybe it involves items. Maybe it involves hacking the game to make things more interesting. Maybe it involves going through character bans before a match in the same way that you would for stages. All just ideas off the top of my head.

Hell, maybe it can't be changed without making it too over the top, or luck based, or boring. I don't know.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You can largely deal with item spawn randomness by executing good stage control and understanding that a match is long and that one unlucky spawn event is not going to be that big of a deal if you are playing smart and using what items you do get easy access to to your advantage. How swingy some of the individual items are is really worse (my Poke Ball can give me Gulpin or Lugia... so when I go out of my way, forego several other possibly useful items, and give up stage control for a Poke Ball, I'm really rolling the dice to say the least, and some of these cases are swingy enough to decide games).

My bigger worry with introducing items is honestly the ruleset debate. We are already largely forced into the "community as game designer" problem with stages, and we handle it pretty poorly as is. We know that we can't just leave items on their default settings for so many reasons, and when you start playing with the settings, where do you go? The current standard is arguably sub-optimal, but it's sure beautiful in its simplicity. I strongly feel that a common ruleset so we're all on the same page playing the same game is very important, and items seem like a big potential roadblock if introduced. We still don't really know what smash 4 will do with items so I reserve any sort of formal judgment as any prudent person should, but I just see a lot of difficulty down that road.

The bigger question this thread raises, beyond items, is very interesting. I feel more and more as I see different perspectives that the core divide at least as far as the casual/competitive mindset is concerned is largely a communication problem. The "casual" perspective sees a lot of elitism and people telling them the "right way to play". That the people who just play "for fun" feel fundamentally disconnected from what we do here is really a bad thing, and I don't think any way we could bottle up and decide new rules could really change that. We need to find some way to really have a more open dialogue about how we do things, decision making processes that are clear to everyone and inclusive. We need the logic behind what we do to be readily available; when people are left to speculate, they often don't pick the most charitable explanations. Precisely how to do this is... tricky, especially since I'm sure we're all well aware of the problems of mob rule (if you want to see direct democracy going crazy and making horrible rules, check out what the Pokemon community has been doing in the past several years as it turns out that banning stuff that's good is a popular thing to do). Luckily we have the benefit of tons of time to figure stuff like this out; it's probably over a year before we'll start having to make real decisions about smash 4. This thread kinda got off to a bad start from what I've seen, but the greater questions it raises are very interesting and ones I unfortunately still don't have clear answers for myself.

 

[SmashChu]

The same answer could be applied if the question was "Can you be reasoned with?".

And the same can be said about you. I suggest you look at something differently and you refuse. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm posing the idea that maybe tweaking the ruleset, or the way by which we create a competitive Brawl/Smash4 setting, could be changed for the better. Maybe it involves items. Maybe it involves hacking the game to make things more interesting. Maybe it involves going through character bans before a match in the same way that you would for stages. All just ideas off the top of my head.

Hell, maybe it can't be changed without making it too over the top, or luck based, or boring. I don't know.

Rules just need to help smash be straight up appealing. Getting into Evo was a very good example of that. Players from traditional fighters have opinions varied opinions on smash compared to other traditional fighters. I doubt that if Smash ran any other ruleset other than what is is now, I doubt there would be much cross over interest for other players in different games.

If smash isn't appealing to someone, then it gets tweaked a bit until it is more appealing. Over the last decade or so items have become completely removed and stages simplified is the preferred medium to play in. I doubt it will change at all until something more appealing comes by. Its hard to say now, but I seriously doubt any major changes will occur. Once the game comes out and a couple years are behind the release I fully expect a ruleset just like smash64, melee, and brawl. Simple stages, on stock with timer, no items, and everything else default settings with best of 3 for a standard set.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Items wouldn't fix Brawl at all. More hitstun, some actual combos and more speed would fix Brawl. It's a very campy game.

Smash 4 is said to be in between the speeds of Melee and Brawl. And that's enough reason for me to give it a try at least.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Any one else here realize we have two smash games...?

You realize the wii u version, which is expected to be the uber competitive standard version could have intense rules, while the 3DS had rules that possibly had items and such?

We have TWO smash games. It's time for some unprecedented things! Time to see if more liberal stage list or items affect tier lists and such so we can try and prove things about the rules we play by now. I think it's an opportunity to try it!

 

[[Corn]]

Any one else here realize we have two smash games...?

You realize the wii u version, which is expected to be the uber competitive standard version could have intense rules, while the 3DS had rules that possibly had items and such?

We have TWO smash games. It's time for some unprecedented things! Time to see if more liberal stage list or items affect tier lists and such so we can try and prove things about the rules we play by now. I think it's an opportunity to try it!

I highly doubt 3DS Smash will ever get competitive.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I highly doubt 3DS Smash will ever get competitive.

Then think again! I plan on wasting TONS of hours to make this happen XD

But for real, there will be TONS of people on 3DS smash as well, some wont mind the delays on inputs for online play as much either if it runs well seeing as how they would at least slightly exist even in in person play between two 3DSs, there is a HUGE opportunity to run events for them even if it's only online then at the largest local events. 3DS play would help players that have an extremely hard time getting to events participate in something more, and if there is a spectator mode that is easy to access for games, they could still be streamed even!

I've worked with a TERRIBLE game (PSASBR) to develop a scene, and it lasted till Sony literally said they are killing the game but keeping the servers on a tad longer >_> 3DS can have a scene, and having it distinguished from the wii u scene would give it a different twist AND invite a chance to truly examine different rulesets. A chance for EVERYONE to get something they want, whether it be items on play and a more liberal stage list, or the standard of play people are used to. Why waste the opportunity?

 

[TheTuninator]

Items are a good talking point because everyone outside of competitive Smash likes items and they get them.

Many of my friends who have never watched a single game of competitive Smash in their lives loathe items. It's simply not accurate to generalize like this.

 

[PlayerXIII]

Then think again! I plan on wasting TONS of hours to make this happen XD

But for real, there will be TONS of people on 3DS smash as well, some wont mind the delays on inputs for online play as much either if it runs well seeing as how they would at least slightly exist even in in person play between two 3DSs, there is a HUGE opportunity to run events for them even if it's only online then at the largest local events. 3DS play would help players that have an extremely hard time getting to events participate in something more, and if there is a spectator mode that is easy to access for games, they could still be streamed even!

I've worked with a TERRIBLE game (PSASBR) to develop a scene, and it lasted till Sony literally said they are killing the game but keeping the servers on a tad longer >_> 3DS can have a scene, and having it distinguished from the wii u scene would give it a different twist AND invite a chance to truly examine different rulesets. A chance for EVERYONE to get something they want, whether it be items on play and a more liberal stage list, or the standard of play people are used to. Why waste the opportunity?

Oh hey Aylas! I didn't notice it was you till you mentioned PSASBR. How are things going? (PlayerXIII/ShailsTDSPT, depends on how you have seen me on your chat)

If the community tries hard enough, a game will always have some kind of competitive scene. PSASBR is a clear example: An horribly balanced game that still had a competitive scene. I didn't go too deep into it because I joined the party way too late but I actually enjoyed it. With people like Aylas in the 3DS version, you can be sure it will have a competitive scene (and I am glad, I only have a 3DS) and trust me, I have seen what this guy can do for a game. Thank the gods you are on the 3DS side Aylas, you innovated quite a bit with PSASBR, can't wait to see what you will do with Smash.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Oh hey Aylas! I didn't notice it was you till you mentioned PSASBR. How are things going? (PlayerXIII/ShailsTDSPT, depends on how you have seen me on your chat)

If the community tries hard enough, a game will always have some kind of competitive scene. PSASBR is a clear example: An horribly balanced game that still had a competitive scene. I didn't go too deep into it because I joined the party way too late but I actually enjoyed it. With people like Aylas in the 3DS version, you can be sure it will have a competitive scene (and I am glad, I only have a 3DS) and trust me, I have seen what this guy can do for a game. Thank the gods you are on the 3DS side Aylas, you innovated quite a bit with PSASBR, can't wait to see what you will do with Smash.

Wow! a compliment if I ever heard one, thanks seriously man!

And hopefully we do innovate with smash a bit, we have two games to work with and an ample opportunity to try and test new things!

But the part that is most true is: If the community tries hard enough, a game will always have some kind of competitive scene. I hope people realize that and just try to fix things and work with them to make it happen!

 

[[Corn]]

Then think again! I plan on wasting TONS of hours to make this happen XD

But for real, there will be TONS of people on 3DS smash as well, some wont mind the delays on inputs for online play as much either if it runs well seeing as how they would at least slightly exist even in in person play between two 3DSs, there is a HUGE opportunity to run events for them even if it's only online then at the largest local events. 3DS play would help players that have an extremely hard time getting to events participate in something more, and if there is a spectator mode that is easy to access for games, they could still be streamed even!

I've worked with a TERRIBLE game (PSASBR) to develop a scene, and it lasted till Sony literally said they are killing the game but keeping the servers on a tad longer >_> 3DS can have a scene, and having it distinguished from the wii u scene would give it a different twist AND invite a chance to truly examine different rulesets. A chance for EVERYONE to get something they want, whether it be items on play and a more liberal stage list, or the standard of play people are used to. Why waste the opportunity?

Its not that, its the control scheme for the 3DS smash,not the actual game itself.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Its not that, its the control scheme for the 3DS smash,not the actual game itself.

Why would that stop it from having a competitive scene? People who wanna play on the 3DS will figure out the control scheme and play it. Since they are playing it in the first place on the 3DS and would be required to do so to play, I'm not understanding why that'd make the scene not exist.

 

[[Corn]]

Why would that stop it from having a competitive scene? People who wanna play on the 3DS will figure out the control scheme and play it. Since they are playing it in the first place on the 3DS and would be required to do so to play, I'm not understanding why that'd make the scene not exist.

A better version of the same game, one on a console with good graphics, easy to stream, larger scene, better controller customization options, and non wireless multiplayer.


Choice would be clear for anyone who wants to play Smash on a larger scale.

 

[TheTuninator]

The control scheme wouldn't be the problem for 3DS competitive play, but rather the nature of the 3DS itself; you have to play in a private space. Makes hype difficult.

That said, I'm sure that competitive play for the 3DS will exist, since the game will have a sizable playerbase of people who do not own the WiiU version.

 

[Pyra]

Note that I'm saying this without reading other posts for the lack of time I currently have.

I think competitive play can be whatever the competitive masses want it to be.

 

[LiteralGrill]

A better version of the same game, one on a console with good graphics, easy to stream, larger scene, better controller customization options, and non wireless multiplayer.


Choice would be clear for anyone who wants to play Smash on a larger scale.

Now this makes a bit more sense, but also has counters too.

-There will be tons of people who own this on the 3DS. They wont be getting a wii u until it has better games or maybe ever, and they'll wanna play competitive smash too.
-Wireless Multiplayer is bad, but also good. People might be willing to do more stuff related to online events, and if there is an option to watch matches that works easily they could be streamed just like offline events and be done more often then normal events, and bring players who just aren't close to a local scene a way to compete outside of the enormous tournaments everyone somehow travels to.
-3DS Graphics aren't that bad, though I give you credit on that one.

But "a better version of the same game" owch... The games are going to be similar in many ways, I think 3DS will have a cool experience on is own, and who knows? Maybe the 3DS scene will be the larger scene, think about it: there are WAY more 3DS consoles out then wii u consoles, and while some people will buy them just for smash, people who already have a 3DS might wanna save cash and only buy it there. It might turn out to be the other way around, but only time can tell on that one.

 

[[Corn]]

Now this makes a bit more sense, but also has counters too.

Similar in many ways, I think 3DS will have a cool experience on is own, and who knows? Maybe the 3DS scene will be the larger scene, think about it: there are WAY more 3DS consoles out then wii u consoles, and while some people will buy them just for smash, people who already have a 3DS might wanna save cash and only buy it there. It might turn out to be the other way around, but only time can tell on that one.

He stated that things that would be technically limiting on the Wii U to the 3DS will be dropped. We assume things like Ice Climbers, Transformation characters, and gamplay modes will be dropped.

 

[LiteralGrill]

He stated that things that would be technically limiting on the Wii U to the 3DS will be dropped. We assume things like Ice Climbers, Transformation characters, and gamplay modes will be dropped.

The characters are going to be the same in both games, he said that himself so if we get transforming characters and Ice Climbers back (PLEASE have Ice Climbers back!) they'll be in both games. Game modes? Now that's a bigger possibility, but no 1v1, 2v2, or FFA modes would NEVER happen and that's all you really need to run tournaments. And if some customization options are out in terms of items or whatever, we work around em like you would in any other game. I've worked with one of the worst fighters in existence and it managed to shine during its time when it was alive, we can make smash, a far superior game shine as well!

 

[[Corn]]

The characters are going to be the same in both games, he said that himself so if we get transforming characters and Ice Climbers back (PLEASE have Ice Climbers back!) they'll be in both games. Game modes? Now that's a bigger possibility, but no 1v1, 2v2, or FFA modes would NEVER happen and that's all you really need to run tournaments. And if some customization options are out in terms of items or whatever, we work around em like you would in any other game. I've worked with one of the worst fighters in existence and it managed to shine during its time when it was alive, we can make smash, a far superior game shine as well!

No, he stated that characters rosters will be close to the same and stuff that provides limitations on the 3DS will be dropped but kept in the WiiU version. Never once did he state that everything besides stages would be the same.

You cant possibly imagine 8 characters running around onscreen on a 3DS can you? That already slightly lags the Wii.

 

[LiteralGrill]

No, he stated that characters rosters will be close to the same and stuff that provides limitations on the 3DS will be dropped but kept in the WiiU version. Never once did he state that everything besides stages would be the same.

You cant possibly imagine 8 characters running around onscreen on a 3DS can you? That already slightly lags the Wii.

Can you show me the quote for that? I'm inclined to believe you but wanna read it in his own words to interpret it.

 

[[Corn]]

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/14/44...ing?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

"Sakurai left himself an out on that explanation, however, saying that if there are items on the Wii U version that can't technically be accomplished on Nintendo 3DS, he'll leave them out of that version."

By items he clearly means gameplay elements, stuff is lost in translation unfortunately.

 

[PlayerXIII]

Characters will be the same in both games. Some might have different mechanics (Ice Climbers come to mind, while on the Wii U you get the 2 of them in the 3DS you only get Popo with maybe some more power to make up for the lack of Nana) but they will be the same characters. Balance might end up being slighty different because of this and I wouldn't be all that surprised if the 3DS and Wii U competitive scenes were equal in size for the reasons Aylas mentioned. An even if the 3DS is a smaller scene, it is still a competitive scene. I don't want to buy a Wii U so I can experience Smash on a competitive level.

 

[LiteralGrill]

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/14/44...ing?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

"Sakurai left himself an out on that explanation, however, saying that if there are items on the Wii U version that can't technically be accomplished on Nintendo 3DS, he'll leave them out of that version."

By items he clearly means gameplay elements, stuff is lost in translation unfortunately.

Well that's sad to see, but who knows? Either way PlayerX11 is right, 3DS will hold a scene or I'll die to make it hold one! XD