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Can a fictional character affect norms in reality?

What norm does her butt represent?

  • The fitness norm - she has a big, athletic butt

  • The J-Lo norm - she has a big, soft and fatty butt

  • The model norm - she has a small, flat butt

  • The anime norm - she has a small, but soft and unfit butt

  • Her butt represents another norm (explain in the thread)

  • A fictional butt does not represent a norm as it is not real


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Slugma128

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For this issue, I have seen people from two camps basically:

The first camp says that fictional characters cannot be influencing norms in real life, as they are fictional.

The second camp says they can, because we are affected in real life what we see in fiction.

So when you show them a fictional butt:



They are either saying that they do not care the slightest about it, as it is not real.

or

They do care about it, because it represents a human butt - even though it is not real.

So the question is, does it affect people´s views of real women and how real butts should look like? Or is it its own separate universe where we can go and enjoy a great butt, but we do not bring back any impressions of it to reality?
 
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Cyn

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So ESRB T content is not appropriate? Also, how do you define "appropriate"? These images are needed to discuss the topic.
It is one thing to show a butt (animated or not) that is clothed, but another to show one that is barely/not clothed and quite clearly the focus of the image. If you were to show Zero Suit Samus' behind, that would still go towards your point and not be inappropriate.
 

Slugma128

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It is one thing to show a butt (animated or not) that is clothed, but another to show one that is barely/not clothed and quite clearly the focus of the image. If you were to show Zero Suit Samus' behind, that would still go towards your point and not be inappropriate.
That butt still falls under T rated content, so it really comes down to moderators and their personal, subjective definitions of what "appropriate" is. Can you please explain to me how a fictional butt is inappropriate?
 

Cyn

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Rated T or not, we consider fictional/real/artistic nudity inappropriate on this site. While, yes, she is wearing something, it does not leave anything to the imagination. It is clearly written in the sites terms and rules that this kind of imagery is not allowed (#3). This may be the debate hall, but I am not here to debate the issue. If you have a problem with me deleting the images, please feel free to create a thread in Forum Support. Have a good evening.
 
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Yes, of course fiction can affect people's perceptions on reality, regardless of how self aware one might think they are.

It's not common for a single character to affect the norms of a society though, rather it's usually characteristics that are perpetrated throughout fiction.
 

Slugma128

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Rated T or not, we consider fictional/real/artistic nudity inappropriate on this site. While, yes, she is wearing something, it does not leave anything to the imagination. It is clearly written in the sites terms and rules that this kind of imagery is not allowed (#3). This may be the debate hall, but I am not here to debate the issue. If you have a problem with me deleting the images, please feel free to create a thread in Forum Support. Have a good evening.
I am not interested in filing a report, but is there anywhere on Smashboards I can debate you on why a butt is inappropriate? Or do you simply not engage in such debates, preferring to use your authority to just state something and then leave?
 

Cyn

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I am not interested in filing a report, but is there anywhere on Smashboards I can debate you on why a butt is inappropriate? Or do you simply not engage in such debates, preferring to use your authority to just state something and then leave?
If you wish you can PM me. I'm open to any conversation. For the record, I personally do not find the images offensive in any way. But I know what we, the staff as a whole, the other admins, and the owner of Smashboards, would find to be inappropriate imagery for this site. So for those reasons, I enforce the rules we have in place.
 

Slugma128

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Yes, of course fiction can affect people's perceptions on reality, regardless of how self aware one might think they are.

It's not common for a single character to affect the norms of a society though, rather it's usually characteristics that are perpetrated throughout fiction.
You say "of course". How are you so sure? If you look at Samus´s butt in OP, will that affect your view on real women´s butts?
 
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You say "of course". How are you so sure? If you look at Samus´s butt in OP, will that affect your view on real women´s butts?
I say of course on the general topic, of course there's characters that don't leave an impact of any kind and thus don't affect norms.

I'd say that pic does though, it's not just about the butt itself, Solid Snake and Raiden from the Metal Gear series also have pretty defined butts.(Well, the latter is a little sexualized.) The difference lies in how people Armored Samus(even without the helmet) and ZZS are composed and framed like two completely different characters in fan art.
I'd say the games such as Zero Mission and Fusion keep it the differences pretty mild though. But if you search images for ZSS the norm for her seems to be very sexualized. The same goes for how she's talked about throughout the Smash community in particular.

Fictional material itself does not enforce norms. It's the people that get certain ideas from the fictional material and help to spread the norms. That's why you could have ZSS in the Metroid series beforehand who was pretty tame, but then the fan portrayal of her became very sexualized, so much so that for whatever reason she's much more sexualized in Smash 4 and Ultimate. Not saying that's good or bad, but art itself is influenced by norms and then when form helps create new ones due to new common perceptions.

An unsubtle example would be how gay men being psycho killers was a very common portrayal in fiction for awhile and helped to perpetrate the stereotype that real life LGBT people were either mentally impaired or killers.
 
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Slugma128

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I say of course on the general topic, of course there's characters that don't leave an impact of any kind and thus don't affect norms.

I'd say that pic does though, it's not just about the butt itself, Solid Snake and Raiden from the Metal Gear series also have pretty defined butts.(Well, the latter is a little sexualized.) The difference lies in how people Armored Samus(even without the helmet) and ZZS are composed and framed like two completely different characters in fan art.
I'd say the games such as Zero Mission and Fusion keep it the differences pretty mild though. But if you search images for ZSS the norm for her seems to be very sexualized. The same goes for how she's talked about throughout the Smash community in particular.

Fictional material itself does not enforce norms. It's the people that get certain ideas from the fictional material and help to spread the norms. That's why you could have ZSS in the Metroid series beforehand who was pretty tame, but then the fan portrayal of her became very sexualized, so much so that for whatever reason she's much more sexualized in Smash 4 and Ultimate. Not saying that's good or bad, but art itself is influenced by norms and then when form helps create new ones due to new common perceptions.

An unsubtle example would be how gay men being psycho killers was a very common portrayal in fiction for awhile and helped to perpetrate the stereotype that real life LGBT people were either mentally impaired or killers.
Well, fictional materials might not enforce norms, but they can encourage them. For example, if the zero suit was not so tight, do you think people would still sexualize her as much as they do?

So what you are basically saying is that norms go both ways - fiction is inspired by reality, an reality is inspired by fiction?
 

Sucumbio

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.......

Alright then!

So to answer the question I believe you have to leave room for both approaches as fiction writers often go one of two ways, realism or fantasy, with the entire body of fictions and works falling somewhere on that spectrum.

So one the one hand you have works with very real characters like Dickens or Hemingway then you have crazy other end characters like Anne Rice's creations or even going back to ancient times like Hector or Achilles.

One is based in reality the other the imagination. And so we as readers tend to focus on the attributes that "ring true" for us as the New Wave writer would say. As in the writer exposes us to our own inclinations and influences us thusly.
 

Luigifan18

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The title of this topic gave no indication that it would be about butts...
 

Slugma128

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.......

Alright then!

So to answer the question I believe you have to leave room for both approaches as fiction writers often go one of two ways, realism or fantasy, with the entire body of fictions and works falling somewhere on that spectrum.

So one the one hand you have works with very real characters like Dickens or Hemingway then you have crazy other end characters like Anne Rice's creations or even going back to ancient times like Hector or Achilles.

One is based in reality the other the imagination. And so we as readers tend to focus on the attributes that "ring true" for us as the New Wave writer would say. As in the writer exposes us to our own inclinations and influences us thusly.
Well, that was quite a reply. It is a bit vague. But I guess you say it goes both ways? But how does it work for you then? What impression do you get from Samus and her rear in OP, or, does it not matter what fictional characters look like to you?
 

Sucumbio

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Uh well the example is moot when considering the larger question. It's a chicken and the egg scenario really.

Does the artistic license in smash tell women what a beautiful figure looks like in the ideal a fantasy, or is it realistic impression of true athleticism? Truthfully there are women whose body contours for that mold so in that respect it's realistic to a degree and yet most women don't look quite like that.

As for the poll though I'd have to say it's meant to portray fitness.
 
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If you wish you can PM me. I'm open to any conversation. For the record, I personally do not find the images offensive in any way. But I know what we, the staff as a whole, the other admins, and the owner of Smashboards, would find to be inappropriate imagery for this site. So for those reasons, I enforce the rules we have in place.
*blinks*

Uhhh... You do realize that this image is literally less racy than any given screenshot in any given match of Super Smash Bros Ultimate that contains ZSS or Bayonetta, right? This feels like such a truly bizarre statement from the mod staff that I'm not even sure how to parse it. It's a picture of a fully-clothed woman in a jumpsuit from a game nintendo released a decade ago, and a good starting point for debate.

Meanwhile, as to the actual debate...

How many of you have heard of John Galt? Fictional character from a quite dreadful book (seriously, regardless of what you may think of its merits philosophically, Atlas Shrugged is terrible literature), but the philosophy espoused by him and a few others in other books from the same author went on to have massive impacts on society. How massive? Paul Ryan, the speaker of the house of representatives up until his retirement in January, cites Ayn Rand as his largest philosophical influence, and it's clear through his policymaking (low taxes, small government).

History is full of examples like this. 1984 introduced us to the concept of "Big Brother", and distorts the way many of us see "dictatorship" to this day. Animal Farm is a scathing rebuke of soviet-style communism. It could easily be argued that Samus herself was hugely influential in how we see female game characters. So if we're starting from a baseline of "obviously art can affect society", then it shouldn't be hard to find ways in which individual characters affect society - particularly ones which turn out influential. Actually linking this influence can be difficult, but it exists.

(As to the above picture, it's ripped completely out of context, and as someone who recognizes that scene, it's hard for me to interpret it outside of that context, which is "vulnerable and endangered" (excellent essay on that and related subjects here, for anyone interested).)

Yes, of course fiction can affect people's perceptions on reality, regardless of how self aware one might think they are.

It's not common for a single character to affect the norms of a society though, rather it's usually characteristics that are perpetrated throughout fiction.
This is also true. The key things we're finding in research on how fiction affects us is that it affects our norms, what we see as "normal". Nobody is going to suddenly become violent because they played a violent video game, but after playing Call of Duty, they may take in more subtle things, like the glorification of war, and how war is necessary and often good. It's the little things - like, for example, how many people think Washington DC has a skyline due to movies, even though it doesn't. Or how, if you do everything right, you deserve to "get the girl". And a lot of these messages are deeply troubling in a lot of ways, and when they become tropes, when they become commonplace, people get the idea from their media that this is normal, that this is the way things should be.
 

Cyn

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Uhhh... You do realize that this image is literally less racy than any given screenshot in any given match of Super Smash Bros Ultimate that contains ZSS or Bayonetta, right? This feels like such a truly bizarre statement from the mod staff that I'm not even sure how to parse it. It's a picture of a fully-clothed woman in a jumpsuit from a game nintendo released a decade ago, and a good starting point for debate.
You did not see the original images. The image that is there now replaced a different image that was edited out.
 
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