C-Stick in SSE

[SCOTU]

My question for scotu is how far he actually tilted the control stick during the frame-by-frame analysis.

I've tried many methods. I needed to prove it to someone before about drillshining. I've also done a lot of **** on FCing with peach. In all honesty and research, you get significantly more aerial control while using the cstick.

can we please just accept truth now?

 

[shadydentist]

There is virtually no skill difference between controlstick+a and c-stick for performing smashes.

SirAileron, the c-stick is an option that lets you do things *not possible* without it. Only with the c-stick can you maintain full aerial control while being able to freely choose which aerial attack you wish to use. Only with the c-stick can you walljump off a wall immediately after ledgedropping. Only with the c-stick can you fast fall while excecuting an up aerial, execute a down aerial at the peak of your jump without fast falling... is any of this getting through to you?

Your first post argued that the c-stick should be banned, which is absolutely ludicrous. From then on you're trying to convince us that having another option somehow is a disadvantage?

 

[SCOTU]

There is virtually no skill difference between controlstick+a and c-stick for performing smashes.

Unless pivoting. It's hella easier to pivot smashes w/ c-stick.

Also usmashing out of shield is notably easier.

SirAileron, the c-stick is an option that lets you do things *not possible* without it. Only with the c-stick can you maintain full aerial control while being able to freely choose which aerial attack you wish to use. Only with the c-stick can you walljump off a wall immediately after ledgedropping. Only with the c-stick can you fast fall while excecuting an up aerial, execute a down aerial at the peak of your jump without fast falling... is any of this getting through to you?

Your first post argued that the c-stick should be banned, which is absolutely ludicrous. From then on you're trying to convince us that having another option somehow is a disadvantage?

You can do the walljump w/o cstick, you can FF a shffld uair w/ a control stick.

 

[SirAileron]

I'll accept that "truth" so long as "significant" isn't the difference of a hair that I've been getting with my hours of messing around with the concept.

As far as this discussion goes, nothing has been proven.

Edit: And aside from scotu, the things people are claiming you "CANNOT" do without the c-stick are just a load of ********. People saying things are "easier" with the c-stick are only helping my argument.

 

[SCOTU]

It's more than a hair, it's like 3/2s the length. (char dependant)

 

[Arteen]

As far as this discussion goes, nothing has been proven.

If you've got nothing better to do, why not try and justify what you meant by

It dampens the basic skill required to play Smash Bros.
It's one of the few things that I was surprised was not banned from tourney-styled play.

 

[SirAileron]

Hm.. I guess I haven't tested that with Jiggs. Oh well, sounds plausible for now.

Arteen: I have an extreme distaste for a tiny feature that allows someone to easily do something that under different circumstances would require a completely different level of skill. I'm terribly fond of the fact that for the most part you could see how good someone was in SSB64 merely from whether or not they could pull off smash attacks consistently. There was no c-stick then, and times were good.

 

[Ayato]

you get significantly more aerial control while using the cstick.

QFT 10charmander

 

[Yeroc]

Arteen, to answer that, the Cstick is a control macro, and all other fighting game communities seem to look down upon them as being shortcuts that only lesser players resort to.

Seriously, everybody needs to just drop it. Scotu's right: You can't get the absolute same performance without the stick as with, but on the other hand, if you're good enough, it's possible to get close enough that it doesn't matter (it certainly didn't seem to affect Isai's or Cort's abilty to defeat people). For everybody else: stop trying to tell him that something's impossible when you ought to know full well that it's really only exceedingly more difficult to do. And by that definition he was right. It does take more "skill" (read: manual abilty) to do that stuff. So leave it be.

 

[SCOTU]

Hm.. I guess I haven't tested that with Jiggs. Oh well, sounds plausible for now.

god, the difference w/ jiggs would be frikin gainormous. it's already like 3/2s the length as a no-c jump w/ marth.

 

[Papapaint]

I'll accept that "truth" so long as "significant" isn't the difference of a hair that I've been getting with my hours of messing around with the concept.

As far as this discussion goes, nothing has been proven.

Edit: And aside from scotu, the things people are claiming you "CANNOT" do without the c-stick are just a load of ********. People saying things are "easier" with the c-stick are only helping my argument.

No. Try it with luigi. There's a significant distance. As a character with whom a primary strategy is often a retreating b-air, and who relies almost entirely on aerial momentum and ground traction, there is, in fact, a significant significant difference in having the control stick shift directions even momentarily.

In fact, the same applies for Marth's tippers. A spacing game as significant as his literally does require the use of the C-stick for proper retreating bair momentum control.

 

[Papapaint]

Arteen, to answer that, the Cstick is a control macro, and all other fighting game communities seem to look down upon them as being shortcuts that only lesser players resort to.

Seriously, everybody needs to just drop it. Scotu's right: You can't get the absolute same performance without the stick as with, but on the other hand, if you're good enough, it's possible to get close enough that it doesn't matter (it certainly didn't seem to affect Isai's or Cort's abilty to defeat people). For everybody else: stop trying to tell him that something's impossible when you ought to know full well that it's really only exceedingly more difficult to do. And by that definition he was right. It does take more "skill" (read: manual abilty) to do that stuff. So leave it be.

You're still wrong though. If DaShizWhiz and Bombsoldier feel the C-stick is necessary for a majority of what they do, then they're just as right as Isai and Cort.

 

[Yeroc]

Someone's opinion about what may or may not be humanly possible doesn't disprove the facts I stated. I never said that Isai and Cort think they can do just as well with or without using the Cstick, I said they have proven themselves able to do things well enough as many of their peers, and that they prefer to do it without.

 

[Papapaint]

Someone's opinion about what may or may not be humanly possible doesn't disprove the facts I stated. I never said that Isai and Cort think they can do just as well with or without using the Cstick, I said they have proven themselves able to do things well enough as many of their peers, and that they prefer to do it without.

Your argument would be valid if they played Falco as well as Shiz and BS, or Luigi as well as Azen, or chu as well as Tope, or Marth as well as Ken.

You have to remember, I'm arguing that it is impossible to achieve the level of control that these players do without the C-stick. I'm not saying it's easier with the C-stick, I'm saying it's impossible. It's simply impossible to move the control stick--for even a split second--and not affect your aerial momentum. Your argument has gone from "It is possible" to "It's not possible... but these players make it look like it doesn't matter!"

You're wrong. It's not possible to do two B-airs in a row as luigi using the control stick instead of the C-stick and not heavily impact your momentum.

 

[SCOTU]

I didn't realize that Isai/ Cort didn't use the c-stick. I'd never heard that. Makes sense for Isai, cause he's a 64 player that just sometimes randomly plays melee. I'd be impressed by Cort if he actually doesn't use the c-stick for aerials ever.

 

[SirAileron]

I wonder if people return to holding the direction they originally were moving after they hit the aerial, or do they simply act like the control stick never existed?

Maybe this is why I get Control Freak a lot.

 

[SCOTU]

I get control freak because I'll SDI twice of of one hit into an edgetech.

 

[Papapaint]

I wonder if people return to holding the direction they originally were moving after they hit the aerial, or do they simply act like the control stick never existed?

Maybe this is why I get Control Freak a lot.

It doesn't matter--the game doesn't "give back" momentum.

Also, keep in mind that I am in no way suggesting that the C-stick does not make some things easier. I entirely agree--it makes smash attacks much easier for scrubs. But at our level of play, it only opens options, not simplifying them. If someone relies on a C-stick for smashes or easy aerials, then they're probably not pro players. However, if they refuse to use a C-stick for complete control, they're also probably not pro players.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Oh, it's certainly true that the thing has its uses, but it does nothing that you can't do with the good ol' joystick.

So **** ignorant it's not even funny. One of the reason virtually all competitive players embrace the C-stick is that there's stuff you simply can't do without it. Learn2play.

 

[SCOTU]

... you don't think that most pros use C for smashes/ most aerials? I dunno about smashes, but almost everyone uses the c-stick for every (non-nair) aerial attack.

 

[Arteen]

Arteen, to answer that, the Cstick is a control macro, and all other fighting game communities seem to look down upon them as being shortcuts that only lesser players resort to.

Do most fighting games have the macros as default inputs on the controllers? *curious*

 

[Papapaint]

... you don't think that most pros use C for smashes/ most aerials? I dunno about smashes, but almost everyone uses the c-stick for every (non-nair) aerial attack.

Actually, when Tope (one of the best pika players) came around, he tended to use Z for most of his aerials. Seeing as how he picked up most of his playstyle from Azen and Chu, I can only assume they play similarly.

EDIT: tope doesn't MAIN pika.

 

[Zankoku]

I thought Tope mains Sheik.

Z is a useful button for immediate aerials from a jump, because you don't have to move your thumb at all after hitting X or Y.

 

[Papapaint]

I thought Tope mains Sheik.

Z is a useful button for immediate aerials from a jump, because you don't have to move your thumb at all after hitting X or Y.

He does, but he plays a mean pika.

 

[SirAileron]

Do most fighting games have the macros as default inputs on the controllers? *curious*

iirc, Soul Calibur had macros, as did Marvel Vs Capcom.

 

[shadydentist]

the arguement that you can tell how good someone is by how consistently they can pull of a smash attack only applies at the most basic of levels. Basically, that tells you whether or not someone has spent more than 10 minutes playing the game.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

While we're at it, we should ban the use of Z at tournaments and force everyone to use A and R or L to do grabs. It takes more skill to hit two buttons than one!

 

[SirAileron]

That's funny... shield-grabbing seems to be more prominent than using the z-button as-is. XD

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Yeah because good players never dashdance or crossup into grabs.

oh wait

 

[SCOTU]

Z is an amazing button in melee. It's great for insta nairs, or really fast pillars, it's the easiest way to grab (esp. w/ a JC), to bad they nerfed Z in brawl.

btw, i know who Tope is.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Man, for years I refused to use the C-Stick because I purposely ignore certain things to give me handicaps when facing people as training...


I started using it relatively recently and now I'm stuck...

 

[SCOTU]

that's not training. the best way to learn something is to use all your options. What your doing is pointless limiting. If there's an easier/ better way to do something, do it that way.

 

[Sculelos]

Man, for years I refused to use the C-Stick because I purposely ignore certain things to give me handicaps when facing people as training...


I started using it relatively recently and now I'm stuck...

I started using it when I started messing around with air combo's. Now I use it a lot in the air but hardly ever on the ground.

I think the C-stick is superior in the air although I'm at a point where I can do most of the air stuff without it, just not as well or fast.

 

[Yeroc]

Your argument would be valid if they played Falco as well as Shiz and BS, or Luigi as well as Azen, or chu as well as Tope, or Marth as well as Ken.

Just what are you arguing here?

You have to remember, I'm arguing that it is impossible to achieve the level of control that these players do without the C-stick. I'm not saying it's easier with the C-stick, I'm saying it's impossible. It's simply impossible to move the control stick--for even a split second--and not affect your aerial momentum. Your argument has gone from "It is possible" to "It's not possible... but these players make it look like it doesn't matter!"

I already know it's impossible, I never said it wasn't. I only said that it's possible to come close, and that it's exceedingly difficult.

You're wrong. It's not possible to do two B-airs in a row as luigi using the control stick instead of the C-stick and not heavily impact your momentum.

This is not the same thing as "impossible to achieve the same level of control." It's also false. I do it all the time using a ridiculous amount of stick control, as described below.

I wonder if people return to holding the direction they originally were moving after they hit the aerial, or do they simply act like the control stick never existed?

I can roll to the edge with Luigi, short hop inward as far as he goes. Turn around, short hop back to the ledge doing 2 bairs, and make it all the way to the edge so he's teetering. That's in no way a significant impact to aerial momentum. Fail.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFhyCF7QY2A Sorry about the bad image quality, my phone was all I had to capture that with.

 

[Mechageo]

I use the C Stick when I'm finishing a combo with C. Falcon that involves landing and performing a quick smash.

Otherwise I just use the stick and A.

I don't even know which one I'm doing, and didn't realize I'd used the C Stick so much until I loaded up Smash64 with the controls mapped to a Gamecube controller.

Talk about embarrassing, just standing there when there's a completely open chance to use a Smash Attack.