Bridging the Gap- The Higher Level Analysis Thread

[Maharba the Mystic]

Alright guys, for those of you who have been keeping up the MU discussion, you know that we have been on the topic of pit and the differance between us, koolaid, and japan's pits. And for that reason, i have decided that it's time we stopped messing around as pit mains and took this detriment seriously.

Via debate with what seems like the rest of the smash community, i've come to realize just how much as pit mains are looked down upon by almost all of the smash community. They say we over-rate our character as pit mains, say our opinions are trash and full of "pit main bias," that OUR results PROVE that pit is not a good character, and that our very MUs should nearly ALL be worse than we say they are due to our bias and lack of results.

They say pit is D-tier based on results in tourney. And when Koolaid, Esca, and Kiraflax are mentioned, they say "a few good players do not make the character good, no matter who they've beaten." And when Earth and Masashi are mentioned, they claim, "they are the japanese, they do not count towards Pit's viability in any way. They're unreachable and thus should not and do not count as part of the current metagame."

EDIT:
we are actually going to make this a thread to analyze all of us pit's but one at a time. props to kuro for the idea. and since all of the vids that were here are in kuro's thread, i will just make a collapse box for who we all decide to in depth analyze for however long decide too. we will do the videos in this format:

1. what do notice works for him?
2. what does not work for him?
3. why does he do "this" in response to *insert what you think is relevant here*?
4. what else do you think is worth mentioning on this match?

for each category you can go into as much detail with as many comparisons as you feel are necessary to use. this will help all of us grow as pit players because we as a board will put our entire focus on just one pit main at a time. and that pit main will be decided by vote i would guess. however due to the nature of putting it to vote, you cannot vote for yourself, although you can make a request to be the next pit and hope people will vote for you. also, we will go through everyone once before we pick the same person unless for some reason it is unavoidable/necessary to skip someone (like if they are gone from the board for hella days or something).

Pit main being discussed for now and all of his recent uploaded videos:

Spoiler

earth
Yui
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZfYW3zuUL0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JADj...eature=related
went sheik game 3
Shu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5VWlIKZpnc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo5Lp...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_GgJ...eature=related
Otori
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGsRjB556BA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYKLd...eature=related
Brood
went sheik game 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8kTh28A-QM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d54A0y_G-Jg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOldP-nAzV0
Nietono
went sheik game 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8kTh...eature=related
went sheik game 3

Let's do this guys, lets keep this active, and prove the to the entire smash community just how wrong they are about us as players, and about pit as a character! lets get better

 

[Xcallion]

I wish i knew what makes them better, lol. But then again, I wish i knew what makes EVERYONE better than me. This seems like an odd thread, but i'll contribute like i always do.

 

[dualseeker]

I'll contribute to the best of my ability ^__^.

Although, we are looked down upon by the whole smash community XD. I feel Pit should be higher than he is, but alas, we need tournament results to do that =/.

I'll do my best to take part. Hopefully we'll be able to show the smash community what Pit can do.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Yet another Pit board topic

Don't think Esca and Kiraflax should be grouped with the other three just so you can call them all The 5 Wings lol.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

esca and kiraflax may not be as skilled as as the other 3, but they are still top level pit's and tend to still place higher than the majority of pits so they are still great resources for us to have. anyways it's time for me to start looking for vids of these guys. besides what would this thread be if i didn't throw in a flashy name for our top 5? i mean, i am a pit main after all

 

[Zulo]

Personally, I don't think the defining differences between most of us and high-level Pits are any different that the differences between us and all pro brawlers. They just understand the game and how it's played better than us, and have chosen Pit for whatever reason. What I mean by this is, we've yet to master things like spacing, baiting and punishing, DI, mix-ups, whatever. It doesn't matter that they play Pit- Any top player could pick up Pit and do well with him after enough practice to get the feel for him, he does all the same things as any other character. Spacing, etc. These are the things the best Pit mains have learned well, and what separates them from us.

The above is just my opinion. As for the five you mentioned.. The Japanese players I feel each have their own perks. Masashi has a lot of traps, like the famous jab>jab>froll. He also seems to live forever due to good DI. When watching Masashi replays you should probably be taking note of his traps and stuff. Earth is a master of spacing, and his matches vs. Shu and Coney show that well. That's what I'd pay attention to while watching his matches. As for the Western Pits, I haven't really notice any specific outstanding characteristics.. I suppose Koolaid has some good mix-ups, and Esca's good in teams. I haven't seen many 1v1's of Esca or many replays of Kiraflax at all, unfortunately. =/

/long unwanted two cents

Right as I'm posting this, I notice you've added replays to the first post. I'll try to write something about the Earth vs Shu matches, I like those.

EDIT: The video links with ...'s in them are all broken. You have to copy the whole url.

 

[fUddO]

I feel like Zulo's got the whole of it.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i did copy the whole url. hmm. ill go through and see which ones are broken. and i get your guys points, but still, they have mastered spacing and baiting and traps..... with pit. that is what sets them apart from the other pros, they use our character. thus we can learn from them better than other pros. give it a chance, it'll benefit us all.

edit:
alright, i've gotten the most recent vids possible of each player. i say we analyze them in listed order, so let's start with esca, and try to pick up what he does that we should be doing in general and MU specific. ill edit in or post what i personally see when i've watched them.

double edit:
adding yass to all this. now it's 6 Wings. makes it even and teaches more. also, none of the links seem to be broken zulo. your pc maybe?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir2LgEdGxmY esca vs ICs (this is the only tourney match of esca in there so i figured it would be the one people would actually want to analyze. pit match is round 2)

1. what do notice works for him?
2. what does not work for him?
3. why does he do "this" in response to *insert what you think is relevant here*?
4. what else do you think is worth mentioning on this match?

this is the format ill be doing all the vids in. your responses can be as long as you want with as much detail and comparison as you like. also, while not required, time stamping is definately approved.

ill post what i think of the match later because i got to go out and get stuff done this morning

 

[Kuro~]

Likewise. I'll watch and post later.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

I pretty much already do everything in that match that esca played smoom, except I don't go metaknight or marth. Playing ICs is just camp until they leave an opening where you can separate them, do exactly that, and then **** them (go after nana, and punish popo's desperate attemps to save nana) until they get their formation back and eventually nana will die and it will be you and popo. He was lucky that he won that because he was down an entire stock and brought it back, Smoom dropped a lot of grabs and got gimped his last two stocks which can happen a lot to ICs when they are seperated offstage.

We don't NEED to copy everything the top level Pits do, its like what Zulo said in his post. This is just Kuro's video thread except you're putting people who place well on a pedestal which I'm not going to do anymore as I get better in this game. We can learn from ALL Pits, not just the ones who place well.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

I pretty much already do everything in that match that esca played smoom, except I don't go metaknight or marth. Playing ICs is just camp until they leave an opening where you can separate them, do exactly that, and then **** them (go after nana, and punish popo's desperate attemps to save nana) until they get their formation back and eventually nana will die and it will be you and popo. He was lucky that he won that because he was down an entire stock and brought it back, Smoom dropped a lot of grabs and got gimped his last two stocks which can happen a lot to ICs when they are seperated offstage.

We don't NEED to copy everything the top level Pits do, its like what Zulo said in his post. This is just Kuro's video thread except you're putting people who place well on a pedestal which I'm not going to do anymore as I get better in this game. We can learn from ALL Pits, not just the ones who place well.

valid point is valid. so should i just delete this thread then? i mean i did already copy paste all the vids into the YT thread so it's not like we'll have to find the footage again. what do you guys say? drop it, or do it?

 

[Kuro~]

I think its a good idea in some ways but i do agree with luckay that we can learn from all people. I say we just make this a *video analysis thread* where we choose a player every month or so to analyze what they did right and you can find the vids from my YT page.

 

[Abel1994]

Take The Quiz Yourself!

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

that seems like a good idea to me kuro. that definately seems worthwhile. analyze all of us but one at a time. good call brewhistadore.

edit:
alright guys, read the OP.

who do you all think should be discussed first. it can be anyone from abel to masashi.

MY VOTE

Spoiler

masashi

 

[Kuro~]

I'd like to analyze kiraflax or koolaid first.

 

[Zulo]

My vote goes to Earth, teh spacing mastah.

 

[Smoom77]

-would like to say that smoom wasn't playing very well that time. smoom won the past two tourney sets where he went Pit-

-is johning-

 

[Kuro~]

Kuro~ would like to tell smoom that font is god awful on the eyes

 

[dualseeker]

I vote for Kiraflax to be shown next. He's a really good Pit ^^;.

 

[Xcallion]

i vote earth.

 

[Abel1994]

what is this thread for?

 

[fUddO]

Earth or Masashi. Probably Earth because I haven't seen any recent Masashi stuff.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Personally, I don't think the defining differences between most of us and high-level Pits are any different that the differences between us and all pro brawlers. They just understand the game and how it's played better than us, and have chosen Pit for whatever reason. What I mean by this is, we've yet to master things like spacing, baiting and punishing, DI, mix-ups, whatever. It doesn't matter that they play Pit- Any top player could pick up Pit and do well with him after enough practice to get the feel for him, he does all the same things as any other character. Spacing, etc. These are the things the best Pit mains have learned well, and what separates them from us.

The above is just my opinion. As for the five you mentioned.. The Japanese players I feel each have their own perks. Masashi has a lot of traps, like the famous jab>jab>froll. He also seems to live forever due to good DI. When watching Masashi replays you should probably be taking note of his traps and stuff. Earth is a master of spacing, and his matches vs. Shu and Coney show that well. That's what I'd pay attention to while watching his matches. As for the Western Pits, I haven't really notice any specific outstanding characteristics.. I suppose Koolaid has some good mix-ups, and Esca's good in teams. I haven't seen many 1v1's of Esca or many replays of Kiraflax at all, unfortunately. =/

/long unwanted two cents

Right as I'm posting this, I notice you've added replays to the first post. I'll try to write something about the Earth vs Shu matches, I like those.

EDIT: The video links with ...'s in them are all broken. You have to copy the whole url.

I couldn't agree more, any top player can choose any decent mid-high tier character and place very well w/ them if they learn them inside and out.

I also feel that you Pities need to learn Pit player history. If you look @ my tournament thread, and you follow the trends--you will be sure to find the best Pit players @ certain periods. Danny could have easily been better than Masashi had he continued playing. For you FL players, he was top 4 in your state right w/ Seibrik and Afro, and this randomly good Olimar player(Icekid-I think is the name). He was basically the inventor of planking, and we still have a lot that we can learn from him even if his videos are old. He still has more patience and better planking skills than any Pit at the present time(including Masashi).

Many of you did not even know KY--and he has placed better than any Pit on this board, and it saddens me when many of you would not even take a look or disclose what he has done because he hasn't "posted" in a while.

And is this thread just a super detailed analysis or just a discussion on how to improve skill level?

 

[Kuro~]

Both. Or it should be.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

definately both. and gadiel, if you think the vids are relevant, then post them in here. i've never even heard of those guys.

also just for referance, the player Plank, is the one who brought planking to brawl.

also guys who are saying "this guys OR this guy". PICK ONE. i can't count your vote for 2 people, that's not how it works. just pick 1. because right now it is either 3 for earth, 2 kira, 2 masa**** OR 2 earth, 2 kira, 1 koolaid, 2 masashi. that doesn't work. please kuro and fuddo (btw fuddo the masashi vids are recent), just pick one.

 

[fUddO]

Ok, I'll choose Earth.

If I recall correctly, Afropony was an Australian Pit main who used to place quite well.

 

[Kuro~]

Earth

/10chars

 

[Abel1994]

moooooooooooooooon

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

alright guys, earth it is.

i have edited his videos into the collapse box in the OP. i say we just work our way down on the videos for critiquing starting with Earth vs Yui 1 & 2

1. what do notice works for him?
2. what does not work for him?
3. why does he do "this" in response to *insert what you think is relevant here*?
4. what else do you think is worth mentioning on this match?

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

definately both. and gadiel, if you think the vids are relevant, then post them in here. i've never even heard of those guys.

also just for referance, the player Plank, is the one who brought planking to brawl.

also guys who are saying "this guys OR this guy". PICK ONE. i can't count your vote for 2 people, that's not how it works. just pick 1. because right now it is either 3 for earth, 2 kira, 2 masa**** OR 2 earth, 2 kira, 1 koolaid, 2 masashi. that doesn't work. please kuro and fuddo (btw fuddo the masashi vids are recent), just pick one.

Danny was planking waay before Plank was. It was named after plank due to his performance @ AXIS & match vs SK92. Plank probably copied Danny since his vids were pretty popular back then. I been here since 07' so I know the history. And like I said, you new Pitties need to check the tournament thread & start from 08.

If you have never seen Danny, KY, or Afropony play then you best look them up on youtube. Danny has amazing sets w/ snake players. KY was really good in dubs & Afro has some good sets vs G&W.

 

[Zulo]

Some of the links are still broken.. Smashboards takes long links and gets rid of the middle parts, replacing them with '...' in posts, but they still link to the right place. You probably copied and pasted those links, so it copied the urls with the '...'s in them. If that makes sense.

tl;dr Five of the links aren't working still.

@Gadiel- Good sets vs GaW? I should go look at those.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

ohhhhhh i see what you mean now bro. ill fix that stuff tomorrow, got to go to bed because i work a double shift tomorrow. hell on that note i may be to tired to fix it soon so i would actually just find the other vids yourselves if you wanna watch them or you can wait until i have a free moment in time.

also, i always see this every where

tl;dr

what does that mean ^^^???

 

[Zulo]

Too long; didn't read.

 

[Katana_koden]

Everyone compares their character to another in matchups giving them helpful hints but is always situational. When it comes down to it, it's about knowing what that character can and how that player plays. In between which is also important, is the mind games.

There are few reasons others are high tier and are easily played by many.

Snake: solid strong quick tilts, also hard to KO
Meta: quick hits, unbeatable priority with basic attacks.
Falco: chain grabs most cast and very hard to avoid. And can camp.

These are basic reasons these characters remain high. Pit was only known good because his spam arrow control. Then people thought it's overrated and began power shielding.(most of us know, power shielding is nothing) but the community ideas won't change.

Pit has an EXCELLENT off stage and ledge game. But how much are we applying this to his meta game? Are we making it set per character? Guides?

As for mind games and basic combos, we are the same as most mid tier.

If you go to a tournament and lose to fat samus because samus did new and weird stuff, you were just inexperienced. Most pit players lack that experience.

I have a friend I consider best tl in georgia. He can win local tournaments but always complain tl doesn't have combos. But only combos because human reaction is generally the same.

Hi guys ^^

 

[Plairnkk]

Danny was planking waay before Plank was. It was named after plank due to his performance @ AXIS & match vs SK92. Plank probably copied Danny since his vids were pretty popular back then. I been here since 07' so I know the history. And like I said, you new Pitties need to check the tournament thread & start from 08.

If you have never seen Danny, KY, or Afropony play then you best look them up on youtube. Danny has amazing sets w/ snake players. KY was really good in dubs & Afro has some good sets vs G&W.

who the **** is danny. thats bull****, planking is my **** and i proudly ruined this stupid game. suck it


out

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

what's up katana? you haven't been around in a long time (again )

also your statement, 100 yes's.

at plank

lol at proudly ruined the game. good show sir!

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Danny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oE1HX5TGwQ
That's just one vid, and pretty much all of his show his talent/smarts/patience.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

danny def. invented planking, plank just publisized it in a more popular region

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Hopefully Earth will be going to Genesis 2. I really like his playstyle now. From rewatching him and Masashi, Earth seems to have a more balanced playstyle than Masashi w/ camping when it's needed(Snake, Olimar), and then some follow-ups and aggression when needed(vs Fox, Yoshi). His control of Pit is definitely improving a lot, and I can't wait to hear/see what damage he will do @ Genesis 2. I still think Masashi is better though. He camps more and uses more arrow baits than any Pit out there. His followup game is very good, and he's probably the most precise Pit out there. He buffers moves out of arrow lag really really well--like I didn't know Pit could avoid certain moves from buffered spot dodges, and shield.

Why o Why can't an American Pit or even myself get to there level!?!? Masashi makes it look so easy. I don't even think lgl hurts Pit contrary to popular belief, but seriously, it doesn't even matter how many times you ledge grab as long as you finish the match before the 8 minute time limit, and also--50 grabs or whatever the limit is now is very hard to obtain unless you work hard to impliment it into your game which I think Pit can benefit from.