Brawl Picks #3: Vaati vs Skull Kid

[burrito]

Ehh, sure. But that's not what I meant.

The chronology, as far as I know, starts with OoT, then splits up into two paths due to the time paradox. WW follows pretty much directly after OoT. I doubt that Minish Cap, which gave birth to Vaati, could have happened inbetween, or even before OoT.

The Minish Cap actually happened way before OOT. It's the first game chronologically in the series.

Plus, the split timeline is only a theory anyways, there's no proof of it. I personally don't like the split timeline theory.

 

[dynamic_entry]

Well I'm all for Vaati simply because I think he'd make for a more interesting Brawl character to play, but to be fair, the idea that that the developers only have a choice between putting only in the most recent form of a character or not putting that character in at all is just silly.

Your argument seems to be based on the evidence that all the Brawl characters that have already been announced appear in forms that are similar or exactly like how they appear in the latest games featuring them. That seems to be a pretty flimsy support for your argument given that we have yet to see the vast majority of the characters that will inevitably be in the game (i.e. there is a very high probability of this being purely circumstantial).

Supporting the other side of that argument, however, is the idea that the people making the decisions about these kinds of things want the game to be as successful as possible. I think this is a reasonable assumption.

If it were determined that more people would buy and enjoy the game if they included an older version of a certain character rather than the most recent one then, assuming no outside force (legal, economic, or otherwise) was stopping them, they would do it. I think it is likely that the developers would arrive at such a determination when considering MM Skull Kid vs. TP Skull Kid, so unless Sakurai went completely wacko and said "You know what, let's forget about making a successful game! It's more important to avoid including any versions of characters older than their most recent ones!", the only thing that would cause them to include TP Skull Kid over MM Skull Kid would be an outside force (pressure from Nintendo, perhaps as a misguided attempt to promote TP, but even that seems very unlikely).

Of course, all of this is hopefully moot, because Vaati would make a much better Brawl character anyway!

and you called my argument flimsy and circumstantial. at least i actually have SOMETHING supporting my argument.

 

[Stryks]

Actually there is two timelines, miyamoto said so himself, in the timeline where Ganondorf is imprisoned in the sacred realm or something is where the windwaker takes place, when u face him he talks about the desert and stuff, being the gerudo desert...

and in the timeline where link returns to his childhood, ganondorf never goes with the king triying to get the triforce, but indeed the sacred realm was open cause link return by placing the master sword to rest, so the sages imprisoned ganondorf and stab him with the sword of sages, they thought he died but since the sacred realm was open, the tri force of power went to ganondorf, sages were scared like hell, and they sent ganondorf to the twilight realm, years passed until he found zant to be his puppet, and u know the rest...

 

[dynamic_entry]

Actually there is two timelines, miyamoto said so himself, in the timeline where Ganondorf is imprisoned in the sacred realm or something is where the windwaker takes place, when u face him he talks about the desert and stuff, being the gerudo desert...

and in the timeline where link returns to his childhood, ganondorf never goes with the king triying to get the triforce, but indeed the sacred realm was open cause link return by placing the master sword to rest, so the sages imprisoned ganondorf and stab him with the sword of sages, they thought he died but since the sacred realm was open, the tri force of power went to ganondorf, sages were scared like hell, and they sent ganondorf to the twilight realm, years passed until he found zant to be his puppet, and u know the rest...

this clarifies what stryks said:

In an interview that Nintendo Dream conducted with Eiji Aonuma in December 2006, he mentioned that there could exist two universes. The split in the timeline occurs during Ocarina of Time, when, at the end of the game, Link is sent back in time by Zelda. Once returned to his original time, Link goes to see her again, and the result of this meeting is an alternate future in which the villain Ganondorf is arrested and tried by the ancient sages, which causes him to get banished to the Twilight Realm; Twilight Princess then occurs a hundred years after the Ocarina of Time child Link's era. Meanwhile, The Wind Waker occurs in the 'original' timeline, hundreds of years after the adventure of adult Link in Ocarina.

thats from wiki.

 

[Kalypso]

Talk about Douche vs Turd character-wise.

 

[Meta_Owns_Ur_Dad]

Next poll should be Geno VS Megaman... who will acompany Snake and Sonic? (yeah, sonic is a shoe in.)

 

[burrito]

I read the interview that you're talking about, but Miyamoto says nothing like that. The way he says it could be interpretted differently, in fact it could be interpretted as Shigeru just being silly. I don't feel like pulling up the interview, but just trust me. I know all about timeline theories for Legend of Zelda.

 

[dynamic_entry]

Next poll should be Geno VS Megaman... who will acompany Snake and Sonic? (yeah, sonic is a shoe in.)

geno all the way!

voting has finally swung vaati's way! dare i believe i may have influenced this, even in the slightest? anyway, uncle kenny, seriously, geno vs megaman. that'd be a rip-snorter!

EDIT @ burrito:

can you actually link the interview. and are you sure it was miyamoto, and not aonuma? the quote i got was from aonuma im pretty sure. i'd be interested to see miyamoto's take on things.

 

[Pip]

and you called my argument flimsy and circumstantial. at least i actually have SOMETHING supporting my argument.

What about reason, logic, and common sense? Do these count for naught?

 

[dynamic_entry]

What about reason, logic, and common sense? Do these count for naught?

reason logic and common sense are on my side. my agrument is that judging by what e've seen, this is what will happen.

your argument is everything thats gone before has nothing to with whats to come. you may be right, but you're basing it off opinions. seriously, cant you see that?

besides, im done arguing. i really would like to make you see, but if you still want to argue, wou'll have to find some1 else.

 

[Pip]

reason logic and common sense are on my side. my agrument is that judging by what e've seen, this is what will happen.

your argument is everything thats gone before has nothing to with whats to come. you may be right, but you're basing it off opinions. seriously, cant you see that?

besides, im done arguing. i really would like to make you see, but if you still want to argue, wou'll have to find some1 else.

Ok, I'm sorry you're not willing to continue this discussion. I would have liked to continue an intelligent discourse until we at least both understood where the other is coming from, but if you're not willing to listen then I'm afraid we'll have to leave it at this. Most unsatisfying.

 

[dynamic_entry]

Ok, I'm sorry you're not willing to continue this discussion. I would have liked to continue an intelligent discourse until we at least both understood where the other is coming from, but if you're not willing to listen then I'm afraid we'll have to leave it at this. Most unsatisfying.

ffs. trying to goad me into continuing by pissing me off? well it worked. reply to my previous post with why u have reason and logic on your side with a reasonable and logical argument.

anyway, i unerstand where you're coming from, i just think its stupid. if you dont understand where im coming from you are ********.

 

[Pip]

ffs. trying to goad me into continuing by pissing me off? well it worked.

I'm sorry I'm pissing you off. I was just expressing honest disappointment. I've been trying to be relatively civil about all of this.

anyway, i unerstand where you're coming from, i just think its stupid. if you dont understand where im coming from you are ********.

I actually feel that I do understand where you're coming from, but that you're missing part of where I'm coming from. I was just reluctant to say something that sounded so self-centered.

my agrument is that judging by what e've seen, this is what will happen.

Granted, a better basis for a conclusion than none at all.

your argument is everything thats gone before has nothing to with whats to come. you may be right, but you're basing it off opinions. seriously, cant you see that?

This is where I feel like you missed part of my point. My argument against the strength of your argument is that what's been shown so far may not be indicative of what is to come, true. My argument for why MM Skull Kid seems more likely than TP Skull Kid is a separate one, however. I'll try to lay this out in logical steps, and you can point out where exactly you don't agree with my logic.

1. The developers of Brawl want to make it as popular as they can.
2. MM Skull Kid is a more popular and requested character than TP Skull Kid, in general.
3. The developers would assume that adding MM Skull Kid would add more to the popularity of their game than adding TP Skull Kid would.
4. The developers, if they decide to add Skull Kid at all (and only one Skull Kid), would opt for the MM Skull Kid.

Now, I certainly make assumptions, but I feel that all of my assumptions are reasonable.

 

[dynamic_entry]

i simply disagree. if the poll was, "who would you prefer, majora's mask or vaati" then yea sure. but i cant see the developers opting for an older version of a character that has a more recent version. saying they want it to be popular is a pretty safe assumption, but how many video game designers dont say that of the game they're are making. why did the developers of twilight princess not say, "well, old skull kid was pretty popular, lets not change his design." i know this is kinda paradoxical considering they couldnt have known that MM skull kid would be more popular than TP skull kid until after the game is out, but none of the other characters recieved a drastic change, more like an update or a revamp. maybe in the next SSB when MM skull kid is actually considered retro, as opposed to being in that grey area where he is atm (between the shiny new and the cool retro). but otherwise no. there is nothing to suggest otherwise apart from opinions and assumptions.

on a side note, trying to take the moral high ground with pretty words just comes across as an arrogant jerk-esque thing to do. no offence.

 

[Pip]

saying they want it to be popular is a pretty safe assumption, but how many video game designers dont say that of the game they're are making.

So you're disagreeing with my assumption in point 1, that the developers want to make Brawl as popular as they can?

why did the developers of twilight princess not say, "well, old skull kid was pretty popular, lets not change his design." i know this is kinda paradoxical considering they couldnt have known that MM skull kid would be more popular than TP skull kid until after the game is out, but none of the other characters recieved a drastic change, more like an update or a revamp.

Or is it point 3, that the developers would assume adding MM Skull Kid would make their game more popular than adding TP Skull Kid?

Well, to address your own question, aside from the paradox you yourself pointed out about them not knowing how popular he would be in his TP form until after the game was released (maybe they were experimenting with character design), there's also the fact that a large part of MM Skull Kid's appeal resides in his role as a villain (and his use of Majora's Mask itself) in that game, making him unsuitable in that role for another game with a different story and villain. So perhaps their decision to change his visual design is based on the idea that they could not have used the character to generate the same kind of appeal for TP as it did in MM anyway, so what's the harm in experimenting with it?

on a side note, trying to take the moral high ground with pretty words just comes across as an arrogant jerk-esque thing to do. no offence.

Don't kid yourself, you meant plenty of offense. However, I'd be more concerned about being blatantly insulting, as you have in your past couple of posts.

 

[burrito]

EDIT @ burrito:

can you actually link the interview. and are you sure it was miyamoto, and not aonuma? the quote i got was from aonuma im pretty sure. i'd be interested to see miyamoto's take on things.

It was actually Aonuma and Miyamoto. It was a humorous conversation between them. It went like this:

Q: Where does The Wind Waker fit into the overall Zelda series timeline?

Aonuma: You can think of this game as taking place over a hundred years after Ocarina of Time. You can tell this from the opening story, and there are references to things from Ocarina located throughout the game as well.
Miyamoto: Well, wait, which point does the hundred years start from?
Aonuma: From the end.
Miyamoto: No, I mean, as a child or as a...
Aonuma: Oh, right, let me elaborate on that. Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts; one has Link as a child and the other has him as an adult. This game, The Wind Waker, takes place a hundred years after the adult Link defeats Ganon at the end of Ocarina.
Miyamoto: This is pretty confusing for us, too. (laughs) So be careful.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

i simply disagree. if the poll was, "who would you prefer, majora's mask or vaati" then yea sure.

@dynamic: The character suggestion is not for Skull Kid, rather Majora's Mask. But, Majora's Mask needs a host body and calling that character Majora's Mask wouldn't be practical so we're calling him Skull Kid and I would assume the SSBB staff would too.

So since we are talking about Majora's Mask and not Skull Kid, they wouldn't use his most recent appearence. Sure, we could suggest Majora's Wrath but that character would be awkward so we are using his Skull Kid form.

So... Is the argument over now?

 

[dynamic_entry]

So you're disagreeing with my assumption in point 1, that the developers want to make Brawl as popular as they can?

i assume that rhetorical, as i clearly agreed with point one. and pointed out why it would be stupid to disagree.

Or is it point 3, that the developers would assume adding MM Skull Kid would make their game more popular than adding TP Skull Kid?

Well, to address your own question, aside from the paradox you yourself pointed out about them not knowing how popular he would be in his TP form until after the game was released (maybe they were experimenting with character design), there's also the fact that a large part of MM Skull Kid's appeal resides in his role as a villain (and his use of Majora's Mask itself) in that game, making him unsuitable in that role for another game with a different story and villain. So perhaps their decision to change his visual design is based on the idea that they could not have used the character to generate the same kind of appeal for TP as it did in MM anyway, so what's the harm in experimenting with it?

again with the rhetorical questions. skull kid was never a villian. he was possessed by an evil entity, which may make him the face (not literally, cos hes wearing a mask.....doi!) of the evil acts being commited, but hes not actually responsible for them. honestly, you should just say you want majora's mask in brawl, because i doubt theres a big fanbase for the skull kid as a standalone character.

Don't kid yourself, you meant plenty of offense. However, I'd be more concerned about being blatantly insulting, as you have in your past couple of posts.

uh oh, you've got my number. its hardly one-sided though, its just you're a little more subtle about insulting me. but seriously, concerning that stament i meant no offence, nobody talks like that on the internet without trying to be high and mighty. thats not the argument though.

i am actually going to give up now though, because it seems you truly believe that your assumptions (good as they may be, and they are decent, seriously, i agree with all of them except 4, you can NEVER assume 4) beat my facts. it doesnt work that way. facts > assumptions.

EDIT: as an aside, check out the new (relatively) PH videos:

http://au.media.ds.ign.com/media/694/694756/vids_1.html

 

[D3monicWolv3s]

reason logic and common sense are on my side. my agrument is that judging by what e've seen, this is what will happen.

your argument is everything thats gone before has nothing to with whats to come. you may be right, but you're basing it off opinions. seriously, cant you see that?

besides, im done arguing. i really would like to make you see, but if you still want to argue, wou'll have to find some1 else.

Okay common sense would not to use the TP form of skull kid because it was worse than his MM form.

And drawing conclusions that all characters will be in their most recent form isn't any better over opinions.

And updating them to their most recent form...

Mario- He has more detail, if they could have done that in melee they would have. But since this is a new system of course they are going to give more detail. There is no point in leaving him exactly the way he looked in melee.

Pikachu- Hasn't changed at all in smash. ((Although he has seemed to have changed a bit through out the series with weight))

Kirby- Hasn't changed

Samus- She became shiny, not a huge update. No point in keeping her in her older look.

Meta- I don't think he has changed from his orginal design.

Pit- Complete makeover.


Wario- Yeah he is in his most recent form, but why not? His new outfit makes him look different from Mario, while not adding another Mario look alike.

his new form represents his own series, and he even has a seperate symbol ((possibilty of new Wario ware characters)) ((( I could have also added that wario's newest form was his baby form, but that wouldn't add anything)))


Link- He was updated.

Snake- I personaly haven't gotten to play his games, but isn't he old in the new one? ((Yeah I can't be sure on Snake))

Zero Suit Samus- Ummm... I honestly don't know... I know she appears without her helmet at the end of Metroid games, but I don't know if they just made her look for brawl or not.

Fox- He got a mixture of two looks, so his form did change. But it isn't completly his newest look. So you can't say he was upgraded to his newest form if part of it is a mixture.


So few characters ((That I know of, some of the ones I don't know alot about could be, and I just wouldn't know)) got their most recent forms, the others were just given more detail, simply because they were able to. There is little to no diference in the way they look, and no one would care over such a little things as "OMG you can see stiches on mario's clothes" or "Omg samus is now shiny!" Little to no people would care about them getting updated to thier newest forms.

People would care over if that horrible megaman got in over the orginal, and X.
People would care if TP skull kid got in over MM skull kid.

 

[bloodvayne]

Zero Suit Samus- Ummm... I honestly don't know... I know she appears without her helmet at the end of Metroid games, but I don't know if they just made her look for brawl or not.

It's her look in Metroid Zero Mission and in Metroid Prime 2 Echoes.
I don't know where she got the funky lightsaber tho...

 

[Red_Maniac]

Skull Kid because his name sounds cooler to me.

 

[Pip]

i am actually going to give up now though, because it seems you truly believe that your assumptions (good as they may be, and they are decent, seriously, i agree with all of them except 4, you can NEVER assume 4) beat my facts.

No, I was seriously having a hard time figuring out where you disagreed with my points. Now that I know that it's 4, I can address it.
Here's the problem I'm seeing now. If you accept points 1 through 3, 4 follows by simple logic. There are no assumptions in point 4. Let me rephrase this a bit.

1: states that the developers want result A more than result B
2: states that option A will cause result A while option B will cause result B
3: states that the developers are aware of point 2 (that option A will cause result A while option B will cause result B)
4: states that the developers will choose option A over option B in order to get result A (choose MM Skull Kid over TP Skull Kid to make a more popular game)
Do you see where this is coming from?

it doesnt work that way. facts > assumptions.

But the only fact you have is that all of the characters announced to date have been their most recent versions. This is a simple statement. I bears no direct relationship to the statement "All characters that will be announced will be their most recent versions." Further, even your "factual" starting point has been shown to be not entirely true, as per D3monicWolv3s's post.

 

[Stryks]

It's her look in Metroid Zero Mission and in Metroid Prime 2 Echoes.
I don't know where she got the funky lightsaber tho...

Sakurai made up the laightsaber/whip thing, the guy is a genoius...
and has anyone seen the zamus from MPH? wow she looks way better than in any other game, including brawl, the hairstyle she has in hunters looks awesome...

 

[dynamic_entry]

@ d3monic wolv3s

yes snake is using his most recent, cos the most recent game did not feature snake pre se, it was the guy he was cloned from (big boss is his highly original name). so at this point every character is using their most recent form barring pit, who is kinda an exception to the rule, due to his lack of a game since 1991 (thats right now isnt it?) and fox who is a hybrid of his 2 most RECENT costumes. i fail to see where they put in an old character.

besides, concerning the end of your post, megaman argument still (surpise surprise) holds no water. and fyi, plenty of ppl were bloody ecstatis to see samus' new look and see the detail in mario's overalls.

@ uncle kenny

i already replied to that post. you blatantly contradicted yourself, remember? i understood your reply to me pointing out your contradiction, but it doesnt further your case to re-post stuff where you pole-axed yourself.

and also....................................... make a geno vs megaman poll already!

 

[bloodvayne]

Sakurai made up the laightsaber/whip thing, the guy is a genoius...
and has anyone seen the zamus from MPH? wow she looks way better than in any other game, including brawl, the hairstyle she has in hunters looks awesome...

I forgot that zamus was in Hunters!
it didn't look that different, her hair was about the same, without the weird side bangs though.
Personally, I wish they would have stuck with the look in the first Metroid Prime for the rest of the 3D games, instead of 3Dizing the cartoony look of the 2D games.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

@ uncle kenny

i already replied to that post. you blatantly contradicted yourself, remember? i understood your reply to me pointing out your contradiction, but it doesnt further your case to re-post stuff where you pole-axed yourself.

and also....................................... make a geno vs megaman poll already!

And I replied.

OK... I contradicted myself... so I admit the point about him being in more games is wrong. But I also said that being in more games doesn't gurantee a spot. Then I went on to say that this poll is not even about which character MIGHT get in but rather which character you WANT to get in.

The poll is entirely opinionated.

 

[dynamic_entry]

apologises if a double post occurs.

No, I was seriously having a hard time figuring out where you disagreed with my points. Now that I know that it's 4, I can address it.
Here's the problem I'm seeing now. If you accept points 1 through 3, 4 follows by simple logic. There are no assumptions in point 4. Let me rephrase this a bit.

1: states that the developers want result A more than result B
2: states that option A will cause result A while option B will cause result B
3: states that the developers are aware of point 2 (that option A will cause result A while option B will cause result B)
4: states that the developers will choose option A over option B in order to get result A (choose MM Skull Kid over TP Skull Kid to make a more popular game)
Do you see where this is coming from?

apart from that being a terrible attempt at clarification, i understand it. but you can never assume what the developers are going to do just because of popularity. that is the biggest assumption of the 4 and it doesnt just follow naturally, it a huge leap of faith.

But the only fact you have is that all of the characters announced to date have been their most recent versions. This is a simple statement. I bears no direct relationship to the statement "All characters that will be announced will be their most recent versions." Further, even your "factual" starting point has been shown to be not entirely true, as per D3monicWolv3s's post.

read my post above and you'll see it does ring true. just because they havnt changed since the beginning doesnt mean its not their most recent appearance. and that isnt some insignificant fact that i have on my side, its the only iota of truth that has arisen in this whole argument. you have no facts, i have one.

listen, i never said it CANT happen, my arguemnt was, that based on all the evidence we have at the moment, if the skull kid were to be included, he would appear in his most recent form. you really have no hoe of disproving this argument until there is evidence to the contrary.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

read my post above and you'll see it does ring true. just because they havnt changed since the beginning doesnt mean its not their most recent appearance. and that isnt some insignificant fact that i have on my side, its the only iota of truth that has arisen in this whole argument. you have no facts, i have one.

listen, i never said it CANT happen, my arguemnt was, that based on all the evidence we have at the moment, if the skull kid were to be included, he would appear in his most recent form. you really have no hoe of disproving this argument until there is evidence to the contrary.

Mario is NOT in his most recent appearence. Galaxy will be his most recent appearence, correct? Compare Galaxy Mario to Brawl Mario.

By the way, I'm not on either side of this argument, I just wanted to point that out.

 

[Pip]

apart from that being a terrible attempt at clarification, i understand it. but you can never assume what the developers are going to do just because of popularity. that is the biggest assumption of the 4 and it doesnt just follow naturally, it a huge leap of faith.

read my post above and you'll see it does ring true. just because they havnt changed since the beginning doesnt mean its not their most recent appearance. and that isnt some insignificant fact that i have on my side, its the only iota of truth that has arisen in this whole argument. you have no facts, i have one.

listen, i never said it CANT happen, my arguemnt was, that based on all the evidence we have at the moment, if the skull kid were to be included, he would appear in his most recent form. you really have no hoe of disproving this argument until there is evidence to the contrary.

You're right that I failed to clarify what I was saying. My real intent was to show why option A (MM Skull Kid) was far more likely than option B (TP Skull Kid), not to say that it would absolutely be the case. There are of course, other factors at play, but my logic deals with the most major factor (popularity) in this particular case. In choosing between these two particular options I can't see how any other factor could play a major enough role towards TP Skull Kid's favor to make that a likely choice (although I do see potential for some factors, such as the ease of creating an interesting move-set, to further increase MM Skull Kid's desirability vs. TP Skull Kid's for the developers).

As for your fact... If your statement is "Every character announced so far has some elements taken from their most recent game," then it is true. If your statement is "Every character announced so far is completely based on the version of them from their most recent game," then it's definitely false because of Pit and Fox, the latter of which wherein the developers have demonstrated a willingness to draw material for characters from games other than the most recent one. Once you've broken that barrier, it's all a question of degrees. How far will they go back? How much inspiration will they take from past games? If you're going to set some kind of arbitrary threshold then your argument becomes completely based in opinion just as you claim others' are.
Of course, this is all beyond the point that I made earlier that your so called "fact" is merely extremely circumstantial evidence for a (wholly illogical) trend that you believe exists.

To sum up, the argument for the likelihood of a choice of TP Skull Kid over MM Skull Kid seems pretty weak, while the argument for the likelihood of a choice of MM Skull Kid over TP Skull Kid seems pretty strong.

 

[D3monicWolv3s]

@ d3monic wolv3s

yes snake is using his most recent, cos the most recent game did not feature snake pre se, it was the guy he was cloned from (big boss is his highly original name). so at this point every character is using their most recent form barring pit, who is kinda an exception to the rule, due to his lack of a game since 1991 (thats right now isnt it?) and fox who is a hybrid of his 2 most RECENT costumes. i fail to see where they put in an old character.

besides, concerning the end of your post, megaman argument still (surpise surprise) holds no water. and fyi, plenty of ppl were bloody ecstatis to see samus' new look and see the detail in mario's overalls.

Okay I will give you snake,

In melee if they were using current forms then samus would look a bit more like her prime form ((More shiney)). And fox would have looked like his assualt apperance.

Fox isn't a hybrid of his 2 most recent forms. Fox is a mixture of his 64 apperance, and his commando appearance. His 2 most recent forms are his commando form, and his assault form.

BTW I was wrong about Wario he had a DS game with a new look. Although it isn't much different from his older look it is the most recent look.

Wario

And yeah they were excited to see more detail on the characters, that was my point. There is not much deference from thier old look, just more detailed. Now chossing MM skull kid over TP skull kid, is way different than adding a few touch ups. Because with that choise brings disappointment, while small details isn't a big overhaul.

No one is going to be upset over a few small details, ((Well I can't say all, but majority will like the details)), but if they appeared completly differnent that is a different story. Look at fox, his change some people like some don't.

Its the thought in the example, it has nothing to do with megaman being in brawl. It is about the thought process of the descion behind chossing what they would do.

 

[Pip]

It is about the thought process of the descion behind chossing what they would do.

Precisely so.

 

[dynamic_entry]

You're right that I failed to clarify what I was saying. My real intent was to show why option A (MM Skull Kid) was far more likely than option B (TP Skull Kid), not to say that it would absolutely be the case. There are of course, other factors at play, but my logic deals with the most major factor (popularity) in this particular case. In choosing between these two particular options I can't see how any other factor could play a major enough role towards TP Skull Kid's favor to make that a likely choice (although I do see potential for some factors, such as the ease of creating an interesting move-set, to further increase MM Skull Kid's desirability vs. TP Skull Kid's for the developers).

As for your fact... If your statement is "Every character announced so far has some elements taken from their most recent game," then it is true. If your statement is "Every character announced so far is completely based on the version of them from their most recent game," then it's definitely false because of Pit and Fox, the latter of which wherein the developers have demonstrated a willingness to draw material for characters from games other than the most recent one. Once you've broken that barrier, it's all a question of degrees. How far will they go back? How much inspiration will they take from past games? If you're going to set some kind of arbitrary threshold then your argument becomes completely based in opinion just as you claim others' are.
Of course, this is all beyond the point that I made earlier that your so called "fact" is merely extremely circumstantial evidence for a (wholly illogical) trend that you believe exists.

To sum up, the argument for the likelihood of a choice of TP Skull Kid over MM Skull Kid seems pretty weak, while the argument for the likelihood of a choice of MM Skull Kid over TP Skull Kid seems pretty strong.

so, your point of view is that a character's appearance should be solely based on their most popular game up until this point? because thats what you're saying. and my "wholly illogical argument"? you're right, there is absolutely NO trend between almost ever character's look in brawl and their most recent in-game appearance. you HAVE to see a trend. so heres the part where you say, "no, there is a trend, but it clearly doesnt apply to everyone, look at pit, and fox etc." and heres the part where i say,"i never said it couldnt happen, are you reading ALL of my posts. my opnion is that recency palys a greater role in character appearance, yours is that popularity plays a greater role." clearly we both think we're right, but you however, seem intent on changing my mind. it wont happen. not until i see a character in a completely oldschool look despite a recent AND popular appearance (yes i believe it plays a role, its just secondary to recency thats all).

@ d3monic wolv3s:

im not having this argument again. i made a mistake about wario, but i thought it was the same outfit. i still believe pit is exempt from the rule due to his lack of appearances since '91. and fox, well, i spose they did their own spin on his design, much like pit.

 

[Pip]

so, your point of view is that a character's appearance should be solely based on their most popular game up until this point? because thats what you're saying.

I didn't say it was solely based on popularity, just that popularity plays a very significant role.

and my "wholly illogical argument"? you're right, there is absolutely NO trend between almost ever character's look in brawl and their most recent in-game appearance. you HAVE to see a trend. so heres the part where you say, "no, there is a trend, but it clearly doesnt apply to everyone, look at pit, and fox etc." and heres the part where i say,"i never said it couldnt happen, are you reading ALL of my posts. my opnion is that recency palys a greater role in character appearance, yours is that popularity plays a greater role." clearly we both think we're right, but you however, seem intent on changing my mind. it wont happen. not until i see a character in a completely oldschool look despite a recent AND popular appearance (yes i believe it plays a role, its just secondary to recency thats all).

Ok, I just wasn't sure you fully understood the point I was trying to make. I now believe that you do indeed have a pretty good idea of it, so I'm willing to drop the discussion. Just bear in mind that most people don't seem to agree with your argument for one reason or another(from what I'm seeing here), so it likely isn't the best way to win support for Vaati.

 

[Cojiro]

Ah, internet arguments. My take:

Smash is not so much a replication of each character from their respective franchise, but an interpretation. That said, many characters all have little touches from multiple games, and new details in some cases.

The "most recent" argument really only applies to Link, as all other returning characters seen so far have little chronological difference (Pikachu/Mario are just more detailed, Kirby is the same. Samus has key differences from the Prime suits. Snake is a bit odd as his 'latest' Nintendo outing was Twin Snakes, but changes in MGS4)

Sakurai wants people to recognise each character easily. In some cases the best way to do this is use a recent look, but not always. Mario looks more serious than his Galaxy rendition from what I've seen, and others have documented differences.

But really, this is surely an ancillary argument. I'd prefer Skull Kid, but in essence we're dealing with a pick between a childish vessel for a nutcase mask, and some ****** wind-man. Personally, I'd rather Tingle - think of the rage he would inspire.

And in conclusion, we all know what criteria Sakuarai really judges entries:

SEX APPEAL. Tingle wins.


EDIT: dynamic_entry, answer this please:

If your statement is "Every character announced so far has some elements taken from their most recent game," then it is true. If your statement is "Every character announced so far is completely based on the version of them from their most recent game," then it's definitely false because of Pit and Fox, the latter of which wherein the developers have demonstrated a willingness to draw material for characters from games other than the most recent one. Once you've broken that barrier, it's all a question of degrees. How far will they go back? How much inspiration will they take from past games? If you're going to set some kind of arbitrary threshold then your argument becomes completely based in opinion just as you claim others' are.

If it is just a matter of degrees, then it is just opinion vs opinion. Silly muffin.

 

[dynamic_entry]

bump for justice!

thread cant die here! scores are tied, 49 plays 49!

cmon vaati, you're so fine, etc. etc.

honestly, wind mages rock guys.

 

[Skylink]

The problem with Vatti is that he is not definitive or as well known as skull kid, and I think Skull Kid could be a much more interesting charachter.

 

[-Knux-]

I'm sure Vaati is just as recognizable as Skull Kid. I haven't played many LoZ games at all and I knew who Vaati was. Plus, Vaati could be just as interesting as Skull Kid could.

I agree with dynamic_entry. Wind mages rock.

Wow... exactly 50 to 50. These two are evenly matched.

 

[Devotion]

Vatti, he's way cooler than skull kid.

 

[Reno>]

Skull Kid isn't even a character really. His names describes all his qualities.Wow cool! And I never even heard of Vatti and that says enough. But I guess anything is better than tingle for a choice.

 

[dynamic_entry]

i dunno, i wouldnt mind tingle being in just to pulverize him EVERY SINGLE ROUND!

edit: still tied. i guess there wont be a huge shift one way or another unless some news comes out on either of these characters. bummer